[Snow-i]

And I think its safe to say we've lost at least one major front on the war on terror. They've won at the Airports.

Let the war on the police state begin.

[besson3c]

Did somebody post the URL to the story about the woman with the prosthetic breast being harassed? It was similar to the urostomy bag story in terms of the TSA being ignorant and violating (IMHO) people with medical conditions. Imagine how embarrassing it would have been if this guy had a colostomy bag and left covered in drink matter instead of or in addition to urine?

It's all security theater anyways.

[besson3c]

It's kind of nice that the right and left seem to agree on this being bullshit. I imagine the only thing that can stop these companies from justifying these practices of protecting their planes and passengers is federal intervention/regulation?

[besson3c]

Here's a question for you guys:

Where should the line between preventing another 9/11 and overcompensation be drawn, in your opinion? I know we all feel differently about the following different variables and arguments, but here are a few in case it helps better formulate your answer:

- these current TSA screening policies
- arguments that involve justifying war as a means to help prevent another 9/11
- torture being an acceptable military policy
- fussing over "terror babies"
- racial profiling
- publicized color coded alerts
- politicians invoking 9/11 to help justify and/or lobby behind a policy
- the so-called Ground Zero Mosque/cultural center
- other airport security policies such as preventing liquids of any kind being brought on board


Don't go over these one by one cause that will surely derail the thread, but consider this in the larger picture context: just where should that line be before we ought to declare that we are in the territory of overcompensation?

[SpaceMonkey]

My own opinion: all of those go beyond the line.

There were some important things that needed to be fixed in response to 9/11 in terms of how the intelligence/national security apparatus operates. The items you listed above that I would lump into what many call "security theater" is overcompensation in a technical sense, but perhaps useful in terms of reassuring the public.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's kind of nice that the right and left seem to agree on this being bullshit. I imagine the only thing that can stop these companies from justifying these practices of protecting their planes and passengers is federal intervention/regulation?

Well, it's the "rights" fault that things came down that far, with overreacting after 9/11.

But I don't see anywhere where the Obama administration disagrees with this bullshit.

They are defending this crap as if they invented the TSA / DHS.

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Well, it's the "rights" fault that things came down that far, with overreacting after 9/11.

But I don't see anywhere where the Obama administration disagrees with this bullshit.

They are defending this crap as if they invented the TSA / DHS.

-t

It is truly disappointing that he agrees with the TSA measures. I hope minds are changed or else this is disbanded by the next administration.

When would you say that the line was passed for you in terms of security measures in general overcompensating?

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

When would you say that the line was passed for you in terms of security measures in general overcompensating?

When they made us start taking off our f'ing shoes... Securing the cockpits should have been the end of it.

The terrorists won.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by AKcrab 

When they made us start taking off our f'ing shoes... Securing the cockpits should have been the end of it.

The terrorists won.

Agreed.

The *ONLY* way to increase safety beyond simple metal detectors is profiling.
El Al is proof that sophisticated profiling will keep you safe.

I don't give a rats ass about people complaining about profiling. What the TSA is doing now is far worse than that.

-t

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Agreed.

The *ONLY* way to increase safety beyond simple metal detectors is profiling.

Well, no. There's buying your own plane. That works quite well.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Well, no. There's buying your own plane. That works quite well.

I'd still screen my pilots, just to make sure they don't bring any knives onboard

-t

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I'd still screen my pilots, just to make sure they don't bring any knives onboard

-t

Hell with that, I'd make sure they're all armed with .45s and have CC permits. Secure cockpits, arm pilots, and call it a day.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Hell with that, I'd make sure they're all armed with .45s and have CC permits. Secure cockpits, arm pilots, and call it a day.

Will you let them keep sarcasm ?

-t

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Agreed.

The *ONLY* way to increase safety beyond simple metal detectors is profiling.
El Al is proof that sophisticated profiling will keep you safe.

I don't give a rats ass about people complaining about profiling. What the TSA is doing now is far worse than that.

-t

I also agree with profiling, as long as it's done by people trained to carefully observe and understand what they're seeing rather than those currently employed by the TSA.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Ahh yes, those mythical people who'll get things right, unlike the current crop of nitwits.

Reality: the current crop of nitwits is as good as it will ever get. At the TSA. In government at large. With the same brand of nitwits who'll eventually be making healthcare decisions that affect you. etc. etc.

[turtle777]

Now we're the butt of Japanese television.....

Really awesome

-t

[LegendaryPinkOx]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Now we're the butt of Japanese television.....

Really awesome

-t

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Ahh yes, those mythical people who'll get things right, unlike the current crop of nitwits.

Reality: the current crop of nitwits is as good as it will ever get. At the TSA. In government at large. With the same brand of nitwits who'll eventually be making healthcare decisions that affect you. etc. etc.

hmmm ... I thought that was what I said.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Now we're the butt of Japanese television.....

Really awesome

-t

Speaking of butt, did you see where one of the asian girls got poked?

[andi*pandi]

Has anyone seen this?
My TSA Encounter – NO BLASTERS!

I had no idea you had to be scanned AFTER getting off the plane too. That seems completely useless and a waste of time.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

I had no idea you had to be scanned AFTER getting off the plane too. That seems completely useless and a waste of time.

That's because it really is a waste of time. I'm really surprised nobody (including Europe) is taking more cues from Israel's security concept. You can't implement their ideas 100 %, but it would be a good start to think of efficiency first.

As a semi-frequent flyer, I'd already appreciate if the stupid `no liquids' rule would be repealed.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Now we're the butt of Japanese television.....

Really awesome

-t

This is awesome on so many levels … 

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

Has anyone seen this?
My TSA Encounter – NO BLASTERS!

I had no idea you had to be scanned AFTER getting off the plane too. That seems completely useless and a waste of time.

Apparently it's only at airports that don't have arrivals and departures separated.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

That's because it really is a waste of time. I'm really surprised nobody (including Europe) is taking more cues from Israel's security concept. You can't implement their ideas 100 %, but it would be a good start to think of efficiency first.

As a semi-frequent flyer, I'd already appreciate if the stupid `no liquids' rule would be repealed.

Efficiency is the angle here. The Israeli method, as good as it is, is slow as molasses. Likewise, it requires some lengthy, hardcore training.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

Efficiency is the angle here. The Israeli method, as good as it is, is slow as molasses. Likewise, it requires some lengthy, hardcore training.

… and it's not feasible if your country has many major airports, I know that. That's why I'm saying we should take elements from the Israeli system, not copy it outright. Here are a few things I'd like to see adopted:
(1) Do away with pointless rules and measures such as the no liquids or no nail clippers rule and security checks when you leave the airport. They only add to the congestion at airports.
(2) Hire well-trained staff and pay them appropriate wages.
(3) Spend the time budget for searches well, i. e. don't waste time searching people with `I hate Bush' T-Shirts or muslim families. Use modern behavioral science and statistics to help you decide who will be searched and who won't.

[turtle777]

Or, let's just not f*cking bother at all and accept a certain amount of incidents.

We do it with automobile traffic, too.

-t

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Or, let's just not f*cking bother at all and accept a certain amount of incidents.

We do it with automobile traffic, too.

-t

Serious or sarcastic?

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

… and it's not feasible if your country has many major airports, I know that. That's why I'm saying we should take elements from the Israeli system, not copy it outright. Here are a few things I'd like to see adopted:
(1) Do away with pointless rules and measures such as the no liquids or no nail clippers rule and security checks when you leave the airport. They only add to the congestion at airports.
(2) Hire well-trained staff and pay them appropriate wages.
(3) Spend the time budget for searches well, i. e. don't waste time searching people with `I hate Bush' T-Shirts or muslim families. Use modern behavioral science and statistics to help you decide who will be searched and who won't.

Sorry, my bad. I've heard so many people bringup Israeli policy without qualifiers recently, I saw you mention Israel and snapped.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Serious or sarcastic?

Serious.

There is NO way to 100% avoid a terrorist attack that would cost many lives.

If they don't plant a bomb in an airplane, they could put it into a subway, or on a truck on Golden Gate bridge, and and and...

The marginal higher safety gained from those stupid scanners and TSA groping is not worth it.

-t

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

The marginal higher safety gained from those stupid scanners and TSA groping is not worth it.

Have we ever agreed twice in one thread? Inconceivable!

[OreoCookie]

I do agree with the basic idea that turtle is conveying here: we should think about what level of safety we would like to have and then implement measures accordingly. Far more people die in car accidents than in terrorist attacks, so I think one has to think about the proportionality between the effort you put into preventing attacks and infringement of the rights of others.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

The marginal higher safety gained from those stupid scanners and TSA groping is not worth it.

In my opinion, it's not just about higher safety, but the question is `Was there really a need to improve security checks in that specific area?' Perhaps it would have been better to spend the 7-digit amount an airport has to invest in these scanners into, say, training of existing staff, hiring additional personnel, hiring of behavioral specialists, etc.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

Sorry, my bad. I've heard so many people bringup Israeli policy without qualifiers recently, I saw you mention Israel and snapped.

No prob. To be honest, I haven't gone through an Israeli airport (yet), so I don't know what it actually feels like. But from what I've read, their approach is more based on research and facts rather than giving the people the feeling they're safer.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Serious.

There is NO way to 100% avoid a terrorist attack that would cost many lives.

If they don't plant a bomb in an airplane, they could put it into a subway, or on a truck on Golden Gate bridge, and and and...

The marginal higher safety gained from those stupid scanners and TSA groping is not worth it.

-t

Then, I completely agree with you.

[imitchellg5]

Now all these stories on the internet of people being assholes to TSA agents; remember that the agents don't make the rules, it's your elected officials.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Now all these stories on the internet of people being assholes to TSA agents; remember that the agents don't make the rules, it's your elected officials.

Why would I respect the TSA agent despite the employer and its boss being so ridiculous ?
The TSA agent chose the job and employer. If he doesn't want to be associated with it, he should get a different job.

Just imagine what message it would send to Washington if suddenly 50% of the TSA agents quit.

-t

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Why would I respect the TSA agent despite the employer and its boss being so ridiculous ?
The TSA agent chose the job and employer. If he doesn't want to be associated with it, he should get a different job.

Just imagine what message it would send to Washington if suddenly 50% of the TSA agents quit.

-t

That's about the most callous thing I've heard lately.

TSA workers, and airport workers in general, aren't there because they want their job, they are there because it IS a job. In case you haven't heard, the economy sucks right now. Are they just going to quit and have no job? Do you think they really want to put their hand up your ass?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

That's about the most callous thing I've heard lately.

TSA workers, and airport workers in general, aren't there because they want their job, they are there because it IS a job. In case you haven't heard, the economy sucks right now. Are they just going to quit and have no job? Do you think they really want to put their hand up your ass?

You know what ? I DON'T F*CKING CARE.

They're touching my junk, I lose all respect. Doesn't matter WHY they do it.

Seriously.

And I really must hold back not invoking Goodwin's law. Because those Nazis TRULY had no choice but obeying orders. Ooops. I just did it.

-t

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Serious.

There is NO way to 100% avoid a terrorist attack that would cost many lives.

If they don't plant a bomb in an airplane, they could put it into a subway, or on a truck on Golden Gate bridge, and and and...

The marginal higher safety gained from those stupid scanners and TSA groping is not worth it.

-t

No, seriously!

Yes, they can easily blow up a car or truck.

But airplanes get on the national news.

I'll be asked to drive naked soon.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

You know what ? I DON'T F*CKING CARE.

They're touching my junk, I lose all respect. Doesn't matter WHY they do it.

Seriously.

And I really must hold back not invoking Goodwin's law. Because those Nazis TRULY had no choice but obeying orders. Ooops. I just did it.

-t

Well okay, just shout at me for asking you to treat other humans with respect and decency in a shitty job environment. Creating parallels between TSA and Nazis is the most absurd thing I think I've ever heard in the lounge. I hate the **** out of my job, but I keep it because it pays the bills, and I have to do some pretty stupid things. So should I just quit and live on the streets?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Well okay, just shout at me for asking you to treat other humans with respect and decency in a shitty job environment. Creating parallels between TSA and Nazis is the most absurd thing I think I've ever heard in the lounge. I hate the **** out of my job, but I keep it because it pays the bills, and I have to do some pretty stupid things. So should I just quit and live on the streets?

Sorry, but I'm not sorry or feel any pity.

In all this outrage, have you heard ONE single story where TSA agents spoke up and said it was ridiculous what's going on ? I haven't.

Plus, government is doing something that the majority of Americans disapprove.
Democracy has been f*cked repeatedly.

I see no other way than to show disdain for the whole system, incl. those that work for it and benefit from it.

-t

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Sorry, but I'm not sorry or feel any pity.

In all this outrage, have you heard ONE single story where TSA agents spoke up and said it was ridiculous what's going on ? I haven't.

Plus, government is doing something that the majority of Americans disapprove.
Democracy has been f*cked repeatedly.

I see no other way than to show disdain for the whole system, incl. those that work for it and benefit from it.

-t

Well then you're just heartless I guess.

And there are stories about those who have been respectful to the TSA and gotten out of scanning. Also, just because you don't hear about it on the internet doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

If you are wronged by someone and decide to show disdain for the whole system, how do you accomplish anything in life? I can 100% guarantee that if you walk through TSA ready for a fight, you'll have a much worse time of it then if you treat agents with respect and dignity. It's the people like you who walk in ready for a fight with their cameras going....

[Athens]

The best method of security is to stop pissing off the world and creating generations of hate. Beyond that the only things that matter is a secure cockpit door, metal detectors to keep weapons off the plaen which is more to keep one passenger from blowing away another passenger or taking a hostage, and bomb sniffing dogs and detectors in the luggage areas. Anything beyond that is to much because if some one really really wants to sneak a bomb or a weapon on the plane they will. And if it gets to the point that we have to board planes in towels after a strip search guess what they will find another way. They will sneak a bazooka near the airport to blow the plane out of the sky. They will train pilots and be patient and that Air Alaska pilot that has been flying for 10 years with no problems gets that phone call to crash the plane its all over even though the cock pit is secure and all the passengers are in towels and the luggage is on a different plane. They will find a way. It is impossible to stop it. The more we over react the happier they are they made things worse for us. We dont negotiate with terrorists because once you go down that path you create a cycle of more terrorists. Well every time we make changes to our society we encourage more. Its the same deal. We shouldn't be changing our society in response to attacks. Until terrorists become a higher death number then traffic accidents I say spend the money on making the roads safer. More lives will be saved.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Well okay, just shout at me for asking you to treat other humans with respect and decency in a shitty job environment.

No, for asking you to treat other humans with respect and decency, when those people's job is specifically to deny respect and human decency to everyone else. "Just following orders" is no excuse, even without the nazi reference.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Well then you're just heartless I guess.

LOL, if that is mitchell-speak for "not letting the government f*ck with you", then yes.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

how do you accomplish anything in life

How do you get anything done if you keep bending over upon request ?

-t

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

No, for asking you to treat other humans with respect and decency, when those people's job is specifically to deny respect and human decency to everyone else. "Just following orders" is no excuse, even without the nazi reference.

Sorry, when it's your job, just following orders is an excuse for the paycheck. Why do you think prostitution exists? People will put up with a whole lot of crap for money.

TSA's job is not to deny respect and human decency. TSA's job is to follow whatever a rich white Republican in an office in Washington DC who has a private jet decides. Bottom line, if you don't like it, don't fly.

I guess I just find it ridiculous that my request to not take out anger on TSA agents seems so over the top.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

TSA's job is not to deny respect and human decency. TSA's job is to follow whatever a rich white Republican in an office in Washington DC who has a private jet decides. Bottom line, if you don't like it, don't fly.

Seriously ? You will just accept any- and every crap that's handed out to you ?

THAT'S WHAT'S WRONG WITH AMERICA. Sheeple.

-t

[imitchellg5]

Do you not get it? This isn't hard at all. I've always greeted TSA agents with a smile. I'm always super happy to be flying anywhere anyway. I respect them. They don't give me shit. I haven't had any crap from TSA, and I travel once a month generally.

[Athens]

If a TSA agent treats me with respect they get it back, if they don't im going to do what I can to make the frown on there face get larger. Its a universal rule with any worker im dealing with.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Sorry, when it's your job, just following orders is an excuse for the paycheck. Why do you think prostitution exists? People will put up with a whole lot of crap for money.

I like how you just equated TSA agents with prostitutes.