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New WTC Proposals--wow!?!
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scottiB
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Dec 18, 2002, 02:34 PM
 
Here.

I'm all for modern, post-modern, post-post-modern, postus modernicus buildings, but I can't see some of these ever being built.

At least they're all big, in fact gi-monsterous, now.
     
Superchicken
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Dec 18, 2002, 02:41 PM
 
They all look dumb.
     
Sven G
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Dec 18, 2002, 02:48 PM
 
Don't know... The only barely acceptable one is, IMHO, this one:



BTW, the Norman Foster & Partners one is rather "exaggerated", in this case: strange, as they recently won the competition for the new Florence high-speed train station, which I think is quite beautiful:


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ringo
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Dec 18, 2002, 02:49 PM
 
Originally posted by scottiB:
At least they're all big, in fact gi-monsterous, now.
Good, so were the originals. I'm partial to the Meier and Partners concept with the grid-like buildings, but some of the pictures at the cnn site make it hard to see what's being proposed.
     
keekeeree
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:05 PM
 
Concept #3 looks like two giant criss-cut french fries

     
dreilly1
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:07 PM
 
Originally posted by ringo:

Good, so were the originals. I'm partial to the Meier and Partners concept with the grid-like buildings, but some of the pictures at the cnn site make it hard to see what's being proposed.
You like that tic-tac-toe grid? I think they all suck, but that one's the worst.

But I do agree that I can't get a good idea of what is being proposed from those pictures. I guess I'll wait for the renewnyc.com site to come back online; they may have better pictures.

Isn't it funny how all these designs are big office-tower monstrosities which seek to restore the skyline (except for the eiffel tower-thing that looks funny to me), even though the Port Authority was getting flak from the original designs a few months ago because they sought to restore the original amount of office space?
     
Emotionally Fragile Luke
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:10 PM
 
The first ones that came out were so horrible I would have fired everyone on the spot.

These ones are a nice step in the right direction. I like #4 and 5.
     
voodoo
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:13 PM
 
They should build a giant pyramid with an eye on top.

Sounds good to me!
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voodoo
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:15 PM
 
I like this one:


No windows
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macvillage.net
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:24 PM
 
I can't see any being built.


I'm against the NYC "lets bend over and show the terrorsts they won" additude (which seems to be how NYC really is despite the proud NYFD, NYPD)...

The average Joe keeps giving this vibe that they lost.


I personally want something that will make each of those bastards roll over in their graves.


Something better than before.


Something that you can see from far away (like the trade center was)....


Something that when you stand under it you say "Damn, no wonder NYC is hyped up... This **** is overwhelming"



I want something safe (much stronger, and more safety precausions, like wider stairs, better fire prevention etc.)

I want someting visible from far away (NYC IS THE FINANCIAL CAPTIAL... it needs something to show that. THAT IS WHY THE TERRORSTS CHOOSE IT. Otherwise, it would have been easier to blow the plane up while flying low over the city, and rain fire and debris.... They wanted to attack A TARGET. THE BIG ONE.


NYC needs something that says "Fuck You" to the terrorists.


Something to rebuild NYC to the city it was physically, and financially. It's the damn financial captial. It needs the office space, it needs the look. Economics and Politics are closely related. Being impressive is half the game.

NYC right now is 50%.


I think they are all pretty nice, but I like the 2 giant towers the best. Kind of a reminder to the terrorists that we not only rebuild, but we enhance.

The same, yet different. Kind of a transparent look in the picture. It's there, but it's not obnoxious. Looks futuristic, looks expensive.


Something anyone from the Tri-State area can point to any day "Fuck you Al-Queda.

They may have cast the first stone, but we finished the battle, and used their stones to build a grand church.



Just my 2 cents.
     
voodoo
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:30 PM
 
Now now. There is no need to say "**** you" to a bunch of dead terrorists. I mean sure, if you feel like it, fine. But what good does it do? How much money will be spent building something even bigger (or at least similar size) than the WTC? More importantly, would anyone want to work in such a place.. a place that says "**** you" to suicidal terrorists? Perhaps. I dunno.

My 2 cents.
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SupahCoolX
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:37 PM
 

I'm no architect, engineer, etc... but is that thing even physically possible to build?
     
Spliffdaddy
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:38 PM
 
money?

this is America. money isn't a problem.
     
OwlBoy
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:39 PM
 
Originally posted by voodoo:
I like this one:


No windows
haha.

-Owl
     
Emotionally Fragile Luke
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
money?

this is America. money isn't a problem.
YA they have no poor or homeless as far as I hear.
     
typoon
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:44 PM
 
Originally posted by SupahCoolX:

I'm no architect, engineer, etc... but is that thing even physically possible to build?
WTF is it? a Tic Tac Toe board?
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macvillage.net
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:47 PM
 
Originally posted by SupahCoolX:

I'm no architect, engineer, etc... but is that thing even physically possible to build?
Don't see why not.

Obviously it has to be built to compensate for settling. Must be able to sway in the wind as well...

I would assume it is.... would be quite embarassing if it isn't.


Why not use this one:

Make the bottom half of each offices, and the top half that steel frame thing....

Impressive from across the river, as well as standing below... Safe...


I also like the twin thing... The idea of twin towers is the primary reason why they are so memorable even before 9/11. Just odd to see 2 of the exact same building. Especially of that size.

Perhaps it could be illuminated for different times of the year like the empire state building?

Red and Green for christmas


Red white and blue for 4th of july

And turn them off for 9/11?


Would be really tall... perhaps an elevator to the top (for tourists)... that awesome view would be back....

A giant glass elevator. plexy glass so that you could look up, and all around.... Would be real cool...

Perhaps on the top, before the steel and elevator a restruant... since that would be high already...


tourists bring tons of revenue to lower manhattan... eat there, shop... that's the REAL reason why it hasn't recovered. it doesn't have much to do with the economy as NYC is saying.... Tourists were the primary customers if you ask the businesses. They are gone. Not to many on their holiday vacation want to visit that horror. Not much to see anywy. NYC wants everyone to believe it's the economy, because there is nothing they can do about that... it's above them.... Tourism is directly their responcibility. Of course Economy has a bit to do with tourism, and the thousands who worked on the site... But the big chunk of those who dropped cash... were visiting to check out that crazy view.

One should note how busy the Empire State building is these days... And the empty really expensive buildings near by are all bought now. That's where the tourists all want to go... The only good view. That's where the business is.
     
voodoo
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Dec 18, 2002, 03:52 PM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:

Perhaps it could be illuminated for different times of the year like the empire state building?

Red white and blue for 4th of july

And turn them off for 9/11?
<puke>

(I'd puke too if some Icelandic building would be "illuminated" red, white and blue.)
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Mac Zealot
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Dec 18, 2002, 04:12 PM
 
Why don't they just make a giant building that's twice as big as the twin towers, and is in the shape of a giant hand with the middle finger straight up.

And better yet, perhaps have a gps tracking on osama's grave and have the finger point straight at it.
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zigzag
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Dec 18, 2002, 04:12 PM
 
Impossible to say from these pics, but off-hand I kinda like the Think "Eiffel Towers" proposal as well. Need to see clearer pics, though.
     
Axo1ot1
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Dec 18, 2002, 04:16 PM
 
My design would look like a fortress with huge thick wals and AA guns with full time gunners manning them all over the place
     
Emotionally Fragile Luke
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Dec 18, 2002, 04:23 PM
 
Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
Why don't they just make a giant building that's twice as big as the twin towers, and is in the shape of a giant hand with the middle finger straight up.
Yes we all saw that email a year ago.
     
nonhuman
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Dec 18, 2002, 04:26 PM
 
I think 5 is the best, 6 is ok, 7 isn't too bad, and the rest are monstrously ugly. I think they should build a Borg Cube there.
     
rampant
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Dec 18, 2002, 04:28 PM
 
Meh, I hope they're never built, or maybe knocked down again.
     
Nimisys
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Dec 18, 2002, 06:54 PM
 
of them all i like idea #1 the best, but these aren't quite there yet either, but i like this direction much more of big grand and better than before. no scars
     
imaxxedout
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Dec 18, 2002, 07:40 PM
 
They're all freaking ugly. Here's an idea: Rebuild the old ones, bigger, better, stronger.

And with heat seeking missiles.

- Ca$h
     
UNTeMac
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Dec 18, 2002, 07:54 PM
 
Ugh, why is it they have to make the new area stick out like a sore thumb? The WTC stood out from the skyline but it also fit in. It's coloring and design naturally stood up over the landscape without being obtrusive. The area should certainly draw your eye but it shouldn't detract from the skyline as these concepts do. 6 is the best but it's not big enough.
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macvillage.net
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Dec 18, 2002, 08:27 PM
 
Originally posted by UNTiMac:
Ugh, why is it they have to make the new area stick out like a sore thumb? The WTC stood out from the skyline but it also fit in. It's coloring and design naturally stood up over the landscape without being obtrusive. The area should certainly draw your eye but it shouldn't detract from the skyline as these concepts do. 6 is the best but it's not big enough.
That's a good point.

I think the one below would work... on top of a large building... Build not quite as high as the original towers... then finish it up with a memorial thing in this style... make it all blend together.

Considering how many of the newer buildings in the city have a more modern look, in another 30 years, it will fit in ....

Don't forget whatever they do will take years to build.


In the beginning many hated the WTC and wished for it to go away, calling it an eye sore. It grew on NYC.






Question is how tall?

I would like it to be say, 3/4 the Trade center....

Then the remaining 1/4, and a little more (enough to be the tallest building) is that design.... A clear elevator to the top (lookout platform).... Restraunt on top of the building itself (you can lookup and see the architecture.


Good for tourism. Which is important.
     
BlackGriffen
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Dec 18, 2002, 08:30 PM
 
Ugh.

Group one: looks like it came from Superman's table (the movie where he made a lair in the ice).

Group two: Looks kind of odd. The way the buildings pinch off in the middle like that makes me think "breaking point." This design is just asking someone to ram in to is, if you ask me.

Group three: all right, somebody never got past playing with those inter-meshing blocks in kindergarten. Too modern art meets drooling toddlers.

Group four: Um, no. We need a usable building there, not a colossal monument. The American spirit is supposed to be forward looking, not backward looking. This is too "I want to dwell on the past for the rest of eternity," to me.

Group five: This one appears to be tolerable. I'd like to see more, though, before I said anything concrete. I also like the height and how it fits in with the skyline, without just going for the boring "international style" (basically international style is the 'box with windows' school).

Group six: Looks like a Morman temple to my eyes. So, I don't think so. See group four, but at least this one has buildings.

Group seven: I don't know, they don't have a clear view of it. Plus it does this silver thing on the skyline that just doesn't work with the surrounding buildings.

Overall, the best of the group looks like five to me. Though that isn't saying much, because being first in a remedial class is still remedial.

BlackGriffen

Edit: just checked the vote, and group 2 is winning.
Group #2: Foster and Partners

This contemporary design features a single tower, much taller than the World Trade Center twin towers. Foster and Partners, from London, were involved in the renovation of the German Reichstag building in Berlin.
Ok, it's forward looking enough. I still wish it didn't quite pinch off so much in the middle.

Looks like nothing beats penis envy in design choice, eh?

Now if they only had 3-d models available in QTVR so we could see all these plans from different angles.
Edit2:fixed quote tag
( Last edited by BlackGriffen; Dec 18, 2002 at 08:41 PM. )
     
Timo
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Dec 18, 2002, 08:33 PM
 
Gonna wait until I see the massing models down at the Winter Garden before I'm swayed.

The pictures I've seen online are odd: stylized and hard to read, hardly systematic. Anyway, they're not meant to be comprehensive, being architectural money shots. Well, at least none of them is like any of the horrible massing models they first proposed earlier this year. Perhaps the LMDC learned something about just designing with square footages as your big "idea."

A couple of the more risky designs would be worth developing: I'm thinking in particular of Libeskind's or Foster's. The Meier/Eisenman/Siegel/Holl thing is so damn odd, I'll admit it's sticking in my brain despite seeming at first to me too heavy-handed.

The real test as to whether this is all one big jerk-off, or real design, will be in how much leeway the architects are given to really push one of these ideas.

I'm still suspicious of LMDC's bureaucratic harness on this whole process.
     
Cipher13
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Dec 18, 2002, 10:21 PM
 
#4 and 5 had one or two decent ones.
#7 too.

The rest are a joke. Complete joke.

I could design a building superior to ANY of these. Ugh...

(I define 'design' as 'draw a pretty picture of with no consideration of internal structure')
     
Apple Pro Underwear
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Dec 18, 2002, 10:35 PM
 
i'm in NY....i personally want to see the biggest weirdest thing i've ever seen in my life
     
DaKiwi2788
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Dec 19, 2002, 03:27 AM
 
Group 2 or Group 4. Group 1 looks like it would be a waste of space and group 3 looks like a stupid modern tick-tac-toe board.
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korn
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Dec 19, 2002, 04:03 AM
 
Originally posted by DaKiwi2788:
Group 2 or Group 4. Group 1 looks like it would be a waste of space and group 3 looks like a stupid modern tick-tac-toe board.
Or square dollar sign.

Foster is the only one that is acceptable I feel, but why no concepts by some really great architects, like Piano, Koolhaas, Pei, Gehry or UN Studio ?
     
macvillage.net
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Dec 19, 2002, 12:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
i'm in NY....i personally want to see the biggest weirdest thing i've ever seen in my life
The WTC was something to be proud of.


NYC needs something new to be proud of.

Something that looks awe inspiring on a postcard.
     
Sven G
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Dec 19, 2002, 01:27 PM
 
I'd like if they chose something more postmodern in style, rather than mostly hi-tech: something that unites modernity with tradition, in the respect of the "spirit" of the place (or genius loci, as it's also said): a symbolic gate for New York towards the world (towards the sky and the ocean).

An interesting building of this kind that I've personally seen is "The Big Pencil" (Il Matitone in Italian) in Genoa, a "sea city" like New York: it's quite successful at bringing a clear sign both on the skyline and the waterfront, while respecting the local building traditions, and at the same time looking very "modern"; of course, at only about 100 m, it's not as high as some US skyskrapers, but nevertheless it has a rather powerful effect:



BTW, some "twin towers" I've personally seen in Milan are the Porta Garibaldi towers (quite impressive and rather beautiful, IMO: first two images) and the "Gemini Center" towers:







Anyone has any other suggestions/pictures of existing and planned "twin towers" around the world...? It would be cool to share some experiences...
( Last edited by Sven G; Dec 20, 2002 at 06:28 AM. )

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Nick
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Dec 19, 2002, 01:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
Why don't they just make a giant building that's twice as big as the twin towers, and is in the shape of a giant hand with the middle finger straight up.
Because it would be stupid.
     
Timo
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Dec 19, 2002, 01:57 PM
 
Unfortunately, none of the proposals is even remotely binding on LDMC, even if we all agreed.

See this New York Times article (free reg required).

The key paragraphs:

"Fundamentally it's a sideshow because none of these things will be built," he [Charles A. Gargano, chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation] said. "But they did show a variety of ways the site could have commercial development and a memorial without looking like a mess."

A major downtown landlord took a harsher view. "They should've stuck to urban planning, not architecture," he said. "A lot of it is abstract. You can't build that stuff. Ultimately, the market is going to dictate what's needed and when it's needed."
Oh, you can build that stuff. But this is a developer town, after all.
     
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Dec 19, 2002, 01:58 PM
 
The decison should be up to the people of NYC!
     
korn
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Dec 19, 2002, 02:02 PM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:


The WTC was something to be proud of.


NYC needs something new to be proud of.
Was it? It's a matter of taste I suppose, but I always found these buildings hiddious, very very ugly. But I cannot deny that they had become an important part of the NY skyline.

I feel NY has many other and more beautiful buildings to be proud of.
     
chris v
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Dec 19, 2002, 02:22 PM
 
The original towers were really quite bland. However, I find all those alternative ideas absolutely hideous. I'd take neo-gothic over any of that crap. Architecture in general seems to be off its moorings these last few years.

Why not just put them back up, the way they were, except maybe better engineered, with a slightly updated exterior? What the hell ever happened to subtle? I can't think of any better way to say fukc you to Al queda than one day, whoops, there they are again, like they'd never been gone.

CV

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Dec 19, 2002, 02:47 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
Why not just put them back up, the way they were, except maybe better engineered, with a slightly updated exterior? What the hell ever happened to subtle? I can't think of any better way to say fukc you to Al queda than one day, whoops, there they are again, like they'd never been gone.

CV
I completely agree! No need to try to outdo ourselves - it just makes us look like we're, well, trying to outdo ourselves.



Would you like waffle fries with your order, sir?
     
digimage
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Dec 19, 2002, 02:48 PM
 
I always thought this would work:

     
macvillage.net
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Dec 19, 2002, 03:10 PM
 
Originally posted by chris v:
Why not just put them back up, the way they were, except maybe better engineered, with a slightly updated exterior? What the hell ever happened to subtle? I can't think of any better way to say fukc you to Al queda than one day, whoops, there they are again, like they'd never been gone.

CV
That was my number 1 choice. I was saying that days after 9/11....


I think that's pretty much a done thought though... I don't think it could/would happen.


I just want something to replace that empty void.

A building that from one glance, you know it's NYC... even from far away.

That's what the trade center was....

You can see a bunch of skylines and confuse them... you see the two giant towers, one with an antenna on the top... you konw that' NYC.


Something big, and different.


digimage has an idea!


Just something that from a glance, you know it's NYC.


Something that will bring tourists downtown

Something with a view.
     
Mac Zealot
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Dec 19, 2002, 03:36 PM
 
that could be said about the waffle towers too :eg:

Seriously, I agree, perhaps instead of building them on the actual spaces where the old buildings were, they could have them the opposite way.

I dunno, if they rebuilt the buildings the exact same way they'd just be asking for trouble---- and ghost seekers.

But yeah, it'd be funny if they were rebuilt the exact same way and they're like

"WTF?! I thought we destroyed them! "

But who's going to work in the same place? What about the people who used to work there and escaped... do you think they'd willingfully work in there?!
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scottiB  (op)
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Dec 19, 2002, 08:13 PM
 
Timo, it must be tough to be an architect in that town (and an architect in general).

Stick to urban planning my ass.
     
mr. natural
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Dec 19, 2002, 10:13 PM
 
In consideration of these most recent proposals I'd go with the Libeskind design. The rest of them are skyline sore thumbs, IMHO, and none of them are worthy of NYC or the feelings connected to "Ground Zero."

Lisbeskind's design does not just add another bulky & bland blot on the skyline, but punctuates it with a lyrical array of crystalline architecture, sliced and diced to accent a acknowledgment (reverence even) toward the WTC footprint. Furthermore, his ideas about the arced promenade, wedge of light, and exposed foundation of the WTC footprints as part & parcel of a memorial site makes for a thought provoking concept.

I personally lost a dear neighbor on the first jet to slam into the WTC and the last thing I care to see there is anything short of inspirational.

Check out the image here to get an idea as to what I'd be thrilled to see driving into NYC.

But as Timo suggested, we'll likely get another pile of mile high sh!t .
     
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Dec 19, 2002, 10:25 PM
 
.
( Last edited by daimoni; Jun 26, 2004 at 02:28 AM. )
     
dillerX
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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Dec 19, 2002, 10:30 PM
 
Don't know if anyone posted this. Didn't read all the posts, but here is a better collection of the new designs. Click Here.
I tried to sig-spam the forums.
ADVANTAGE Motorsports Marketing, Inc. • speedXdesign, Inc.
     
gerbnl
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Join Date: Jul 2002
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Dec 19, 2002, 10:31 PM
 
Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
Why don't they just make a giant building that's twice as big as the twin towers, and is in the shape of a giant hand with the middle finger straight up.
Something like this?



But no kidding, you guys should go for #5. definately the best design...
     
 
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