[MacGorilla]

This picture was taken by a contractor at Dover AFB (where US millitary dead are brought back from overseas). I think the picture speaks for itself.

[Spliffdaddy]

I wonder if my freedom would mean as much to me if didn't cost others so damn much to buy it for me.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I wonder if my freedom would mean as much to me if didn't cost others so damn much to buy it for me.

I appreciate the romanticism, but:

What exactly does YOUR freedom have to do with those twenty-some coffins?

It's not like they died defending your country.

-s*

[Spliffdaddy]

Indeed they did.

Be they Americans or not. Soldiers or civilian.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Indeed they did.

Be they Americans or not. Soldiers or civilian.

*sigh*

They died in Iraq, didn't they?

INVADING Iraq, no?

Defending the United States from whom, exactly? Who was attacking your freedom from Iraq?

An emasculated, virtually unarmed Stalinist dictator?

Imaginary ter'rirsts?

Something vaguely nucular?

-s*

[Spliffdaddy]

The American-flag-draped coffins reflect a country whose ideals and beliefs are heartfelt and honest. To the extent that lives are willingly risked to protect and promote them. A country of which I am a citizen - and, as a citizen, will benefit from those sacrifices. The sacrifices of others.

Sometimes many lives are saved by the deaths of a few. Many wars can be prevented by a single war.

Perhaps Saddam would have quickly stepped aside - if, historically, our words and threats had been backed by action, instead of inaction. Perhaps, historically, it wasn't often worth the risk of life in order to back our words. Perhaps the next Saddam will step aside.

Whatever the case, I appreciate the sacrifices that have been made for the citizens of my country...by whoever made them and wherever they're from. My duty as a citizen is to make 'em proud. To earn their respect. And that's something I couldn't be happier to do.

[Spheric Harlot]

You didn't answer any of my questions.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
The American-flag-draped coffins reflect a country whose ideals and beliefs are heartfelt and honest. To the extent that lives are willingly risked to protect and promote them. A country of which I am a citizen - and, as a citizen, will benefit from those sacrifices. The sacrifices of others.

Sometimes many lives are saved by the deaths of a few. Many wars can be prevented by a single war.

Perhaps Saddam would have quickly stepped aside - if, historically, our words and threats had been backed by action, instead of inaction. Perhaps, historically, it wasn't often worth the risk of life in order to back our words. Perhaps the next Saddam will step aside.

Whatever the case, I appreciate the sacrifices that have been made for the citizens of my country...by whoever made them and wherever they're from. My duty as a citizen is to make 'em proud. To earn their respect. And that's something I couldn't be happier to do.

I hesitate to post in a thread with picture of the dead, any dead, as I believe in respecting the dead.

But I fear you live in an imaginary world. Most wars are not fought for the clear and moral reasons you imagine they are. Most, but not all wars only breed more wars, and usually it's the lives of a few that are saved by the deaths of many.

[Nicko]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
*sigh*

They died in Iraq, didn't they?

INVADING Iraq, no?

Defending the United States from whom, exactly? Who was attacking your freedom from Iraq?

An emasculated, virtually unarmed Stalinist dictator?

Imaginary ter'rirsts?

Something vaguely nucular?

-s*

They died for Walmart.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Nicko:
They died for Walmart.

They died for people like you...so you don't have to deal with the tyranny of dictators and terrorists. They died for a noble cause to bring peace to a region and peace to the world. Too bad you don't see that. But the next time a terrorist blows up your countrymen...remember your sentiments...because hopefully, the US won't care either.

[netgear]

How quickly Europeans have forgotten how America saved them.

I say never again.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I wonder if my freedom would mean as much to me if didn't cost others so damn much to buy it for me.

Are you an Iraqi citizen by any chance? Because *your* freedom wasn't at stake in Iraq, was it? So, these soldiers did not die buying *your* freedom.

Those soldiers died in Iraq, of that there is no contention. And they deserve all our respect for that sacrifice.

What is, and continues to be, debatable is whether or not these soldiers were in Iraq as "liberators" or "invaders/occupiers" and that is what ALL the p*ssing-matches in here are all about.


<edited for typo>

[Spliffdaddy]

Our freedom, as a nation of citizens, is dependent on our ability and willingness to defend American interests from foreign interference.

Our willingness and ability to do that is now on display in Iraq.

For all the potential and present Saddams to witness.

No, we won't be swayed by "world opinion". We'll do what we think is necessary to defend our interests. Even if "world opinion" disagrees.

Yes, the 'liberation of Iraq' does protect and promote *my* freedom as an American citizen. The people dying there (regardless of their nationality) were promoting American interests (or defending them..whatever) simply by being there, remember?

Some of them died while risking their lives in an effort to assist America and its citizens and to potentially *do something good* for the Iraqi citizens, as well.

Good or bad, whether I like it or not, and even if I believe it's an unacceptable price - my freedom is being paid for by others. The least I can do is respect them for their decisions and the risks they took and the price they paid. And maybe show a little gratitude by considering that, maybe, their opinion might have more merit than mine...since they were willing to risk something for their's. On my behalf and in spite of my opinion.

How in the hell could they be wrong?

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Our freedom, as a nation of citizens, is dependent on our ability and willingness to defend American interests from foreign interference.

Our willingness and ability to do that is now on display in Iraq.

For all the potential and present Saddams to witness.

No, we won't be swayed by "world opinion". We'll do what we think is necessary to defend our interests. Even if "world opinion" disagrees.

Yes, the 'liberation of Iraq' does protect and promote *my* freedom as an American citizen. The people dying there (regardless of their nationality) were promoting American interests (or defending them..whatever) simply by being there, remember?

Some of them died while risking their lives in an effort to assist America and its citizens and to potentially *do something good* for the Iraqi citizens, as well.

Good or bad, whether I like it or not, and even if I believe it's an unacceptable price - my freedom is being paid for by others. The least I can do is respect them for their decisions and the risks they took and the price they paid. And maybe show a little gratitude by considering that, maybe, their opinion might have more merit than mine...since they were willing to risk something for their's. On my behalf and in spite of my opinion.

How in the hell could they be wrong?

I've already stated my opinion on this as far as I am willing to do so in this thread. I'll willingly take you on in another thread, but not this one, for reasons I have stated above.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Our freedom, as a nation of citizens, is dependent on our ability and willingness to defend American interests from foreign interference.

in what way were iraqi civilians threatening your (or any american's) "freedoms"?

in what way weren't they threatening your freedom in the 1980s?

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Our freedom, as a nation of citizens, is dependent on our ability and willingness to defend American interests from foreign interference.

Our willingness and ability to do that is now on display in Iraq.

For all the potential and present Saddams to witness.

No, we won't be swayed by "world opinion". We'll do what we think is necessary to defend our interests. Even if "world opinion" disagrees.

Yes, the 'liberation of Iraq' does protect and promote *my* freedom as an American citizen. The people dying there (regardless of their nationality) were promoting American interests (or defending them..whatever) simply by being there, remember?

Some of them died while risking their lives in an effort to assist America and its citizens and to potentially *do something good* for the Iraqi citizens, as well.

Good or bad, whether I like it or not, and even if I believe it's an unacceptable price - my freedom is being paid for by others. The least I can do is respect them for their decisions and the risks they took and the price they paid. And maybe show a little gratitude by considering that, maybe, their opinion might have more merit than mine...since they were willing to risk something for their's. On my behalf and in spite of my opinion.

How in the hell could they be wrong?

What American interests were threatened by Saddam Hussein?

On, and about this comment,
"The people dying there (regardless of their nationality) were promoting American interests (or defending them..whatever) simply by being there, remember?"

Does this extend to the Iraqi people fighting the Coalition soldiers because they were most definitely NOT supporting American interests?

[Spliffdaddy]

Do you think maybe the next time we ask a brutal dictator to step down - or else we'll remove him - he'll be more inclined to believe we'll actually do it? Even with "world opinion" on his side, he can't dismiss America's opinion. After all, the reluctance to act against world opinion didn't get in the way of America taking action the last time the situation arose.

That, folks, goes a looong way toward avoiding future conflict and a longer way toward promoting and protecting American interests (and therefore *my* freedom).

Thank you and good day!

[itai195]

Why would a 'brutal dictator' want to step down? They would lose nothing by fighting it out. And if it's a dictator who may have the military capacity to put up a good fight, all the more reason not to step down. Plus, it's not as if the US has shown an unwillingness to remove dictators in the past... The situation is not nearly so simplistic.

[Spliffdaddy]

Then why is everybody so damned worried we're gonna do it again?

edit:

huh?

[osiris]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
No, we won't be swayed by "world opinion". We'll do what we think is necessary to defend our interests. Even if "world opinion" disagrees.

*Interest = Oil, the US had the balls/gaul to seek it by any means necessary, including outright lies.

Yes, the 'liberation of Iraq' does protect and promote *my* freedom as an American citizen. The people dying there (regardless of their nationality) were promoting American interests (or defending them..whatever) simply by being there, remember?

*American Interests = Oil, The US couldn't care less for Iraqis, Iranians, or Martians for that matter. If there's oil, we care.

Some of them died while risking their lives in an effort to assist America and its citizens and to potentially *do something good* for the Iraqi citizens, as well.

*Risking lives Defending Oil; Iraqis are by no defination liberated from anyone. We own them and they do what we tell them to do. Hence the current revolution.

Good or bad, whether I like it or not, and even if I believe it's an unacceptable price - my freedom is being paid for by others. The least I can do is respect them for their decisions and the risks they took and the price they paid. And maybe show a little gratitude by considering that, maybe, their opinion might have more merit than mine...since they were willing to risk something for their's. On my behalf and in spite of my opinion.

How in the hell could they be wrong?

*The soldiers deserve all the respect for their services. They may be heroes, but they are unfortunate pawns and have been thoroughly used for purposes under the guise of freedom. So that we can have oil. Wave your flag as you fill your gas tank if it makes you happy, I do.

*Let's not kid ourselves about freedom, because there are other countries (Israel, China, Cuba) just begging to be liberated so that their citizens may enjoy democracy. Yet we give tons of money to Israel, buy everything from China, and well, Cuba is Cuba and we just don't like them and refuse any trade with them because they're commies, unlike China.(!)

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Do you think maybe the next time we ask a brutal dictator to step down - or else we'll remove him - he'll be more inclined to believe we'll actually do it? Even with "world opinion" on his side, he can't dismiss America's opinion. After all, the reluctance to act against world opinion didn't get in the way of America taking action the last time the situation arose.

That, folks, goes a looong way toward avoiding future conflict and a longer way toward promoting and protecting American interests (and therefore *my* freedom).

Thank you and good day!

OK, so going into Iraq didn't actually have anything to do with Saddam and/or Iraq currently threatening American interests. It was undertaken as a preventative measure to warn future dictators, that DO threaten our interests, to not mess with us. Got, it. OK!

[Spliffdaddy]

Some of you folks seem overly concerned that America is promoting and protecting its interests...and those of its citizens. And you seem shocked that America is gonna keep doing it.

well duh.

[GRAFF]

Originally posted by netgear:
How quickly Europeans have forgotten how America saved them.

I say never again.

How quickly Americans forget that the US refused to enter into WWII until they were attacked themselves at Pearl Harbor.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Some of you folks seem overly concerned that America is promoting and protecting its interests...and those of its citizens. And you seem shocked that America is gonna keep doing it.

well duh.

I am an American--born, raised, and lived here for 33 years--and I want to know why you think going into Iraq/deposing Saddam was in America's best interests.

Your reply to a previous post of mine was that going into Iraq now was not so much about facing a direct threat to our interests from Iraq but providing a show of strength to deter future despots that might seek to threaten American interests? Is this a correct assessment of your statement?


<edited for clarity>

[Troll]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Then why is everybody so damned worried we're gonna do it again?

edit:

huh?

Clearly you've never been a bully. If you had, you'd know that you can only force people to do things that aren't in their interests for a little bit of the time. Eventually they get tired of you and either band together to beat you up or they start doing nasty little petty things to make your life difficult.

In the same way, the US cannot go around the world smacking countries into a more US-friendly shape. They don't have the resources to sustain the backlash. Other brutal dictators have seen what you did in Iraq and are looking even harder than they have been up to now for ways to prevent you from getting them. They might even pre-empt you by smacking you with a nuke as quick as possible or they might play on some of the emotion that your bullying tactics have rubbed raw and persuade others to do some of their dirty work for them.

I don't think Bush's little war in Iraq has made you any safer. On the contrary. I think that if you keep doing this sort of thing, then enough of the world will get tired of you to make a difference.

[itai195]

Originally posted by GRAFF:
How quickly Americans forget that the US refused to enter into WWII until they were attacked themselves at Pearl Harbor.

This is kind of petty, isn't it? That's why I avoided responding to netgear in the first place. Both posts are gross oversimplifications of the era.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by netgear:
How quickly Europeans have forgotten how America saved them.

I say never again.

I've said it a dozen times, and I'll say it again:

Friends don't let their friends do STUPID things.

America just *may* be leading the world straight into WWIII, if they keep playing into the hands of the terrorists as they are now.

Get used to people disagreeing when you do stupid things, be those people in your debt or not.

-s*

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I've said it a dozen times, and I'll say it again:

Friends don't let their friends do STUPID things.

America just *may* be leading the world straight into WWIII, if they keep playing into the hands of the terrorists as they are now.

Get used to people disagreeing when you do stupid things, be those people in your debt or not.

-s*

And who will be the participants? I am curious as to your opinion.

I would say that the ME is not the true powder keg, but perhaps it is.

[netgear]

Originally posted by itai195:
This is kind of petty, isn't it? That's why I avoided responding to netgear in the first place. Both posts are gross oversimplifications of the era.

Did we rebuild Europe? Or take over like the Soviets did?

[itai195]

Originally posted by netgear:
Did we rebuild Europe? Or take over like the Soviets did?

We rebuilt it in our image, what's the difference? Seems to have worked out better for us than for the Soviets.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by dcolton:
And who will be the participants? I am curious as to your opinion.

I would say that the ME is not the true powder keg, but perhaps it is.

Your president may be hard at work selling you the notion that a *country* or its government may be what you're going to war with, but I think we've all realized by now that Iraq had nothing to do with the War on Terror.

I think the president is equally hard at work ignoring, and making sure you ignore, what you're really up against.

This isn't some army whose homeland you can invade and defeat. Cells are everywhere. More spring up every time you go and do something stupid. And you've been doing an awful lot of stupid things lately. You have succeeded into turning "Al Qaeda", which used to be a closely-knit organisation, into a grass-roots movement.

The participants of the Casablanca bombings last year basically said as much when they were caught and questioned. Everywhere the enemy is harmed, there is al-Qaeda.

-s*

[netgear]

I would argue that the real beneficiaries would be the Europeans since peace has been achieved. Democracy has swept away the totalitarian regimes and reduced the monarchy in England to puppetry. And it was the Soviet style of management that went out of business and was replaced with even more democracy.

[itai195]

Originally posted by netgear:
I would argue that the real beneficiaries would be the Europeans since peace has been achieved. Democracy has swept away the totalitarian regimes and reduced the monarchy in England to puppetry. And it was the Soviet style of management that went out of business and was replaced with even more democracy.

It's a win-win situation to be sure. But what does that have to do with Iraq?

[netgear]

You're right, wrong thread.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
You didn't answer any of my questions.

Indeed he did, it just wasn't the answser you wanted to hear.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by GRAFF:
How quickly Americans forget that the US refused to enter into WWII until they were attacked themselves at Pearl Harbor.

Bull hockey, we could have went against Japan and left Germany alone. After all, Germany didn't attack us. Where would you be then?

Edit: ok, ok... enough. wrong thread.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Your president may be hard at work selling you the notion that a *country* or its government may be what you're going to war with, but I think we've all realized by now that Iraq had nothing to do with the War on Terror.

I think the president is equally hard at work ignoring, and making sure you ignore, what you're really up against.

This isn't some army whose homeland you can invade and defeat. Cells are everywhere. More spring up every time you go and do something stupid. And you've been doing an awful lot of stupid things lately. You have succeeded into turning "Al Qaeda", which used to be a closely-knit organisation, into a grass-roots movement.

The participants of the Casablanca bombings last year basically said as much when they were caught and questioned. Everywhere the enemy is harmed, there is al-Qaeda.

-s*

I appreciate your comments (not really) but will you answer the question. Who will be the players in WWIII? Are you saying that the war will be against Islam or muslims?

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:


in what way weren't they threatening your freedom in the 1980s?

It was an ideological war with the Soviets over influence of less developed countries. The Mideast was our chess board. So long as Iraq wasn't under Communist influence they were a good guy by non-affiliation. There were real wars but they became wars by proxy that neither the US or USSR fought but rather supported smaller players to fight on their ideological side. Iraq was one of those players and we backed them. Lastly, you are dumb.

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I appreciate the romanticism, but:

What exactly does YOUR freedom have to do with those twenty-some coffins?

It's not like they died defending your country.

-s*

Well, as I have pointed out before. Iraq has always been the best Mideast candidate to turn into a democracy. In the same way that hostile states in Eastern Europe sold out to democracy, or rather consumerism, and became more Western-friendly we need to seed the Mideast to do the same. Until that time they pose a risk as a hotbed of poor, inadequately educated, religiously fundamentalist third world creatures who have nothing to lose by strapping a bomb to their ass and coming over here to blow up my things. Sure, we won't get 100% compliance but once people start having money and buying crap they won't be as quick to leave it behind for the promise of 100 "virgins"

We won't ever have world peace it is not in human nature, but the closest thing we wcan ever get is mutual desire not to lose our house, German made cars, and Japanese electronics. So how have they posed a threat to our freedom, they are not getting with the program. No one will ever worship the same god but even their little Scandinavian Islam counterparts bow to the size of their bank accounts. The pursuit of money is the only way everyone can be on the same page because we'll be intertwined through economics.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
It was an ideological war with the Soviets over influence of less developed countries. The Mideast was our chess board. So long as Iraq wasn't under Communist influence they were a good guy by non-affiliation. There were real wars but they became wars by proxy that neither the US or USSR fought but rather supported smaller players to fight on their ideological side. Iraq was one of those players and we backed them. Lastly, you are dumb.



Well, as I have pointed out before. Iraq has always been the best Mideast candidate to turn into a democracy. In the same way that hostile states in Eastern Europe sold out to democracy, or rather consumerism, and became more Western-friendly we need to seed the Mideast to do the same. Until that time they pose a risk as a hotbed of poor, inadequately educated, religiously fundamentalist third world creatures who have nothing to lose by strapping a bomb to their ass and coming over here to blow up my things. Sure, we won't get 100% compliance but once people start having money and buying crap they won't be as quick to leave it behind for the promise of 100 "virgins"

We won't ever have world peace it is not in human nature, but the closest thing we wcan ever get is mutual desire not to lose our house, German made cars, and Japanese electronics. So how have they posed a threat to our freedom, they are not getting with the program. No one will ever worship the same god but even their little Scandinavian Islam counterparts bow to the size of their bank accounts. The pursuit of money is the only way everyone can be on the same page because we'll be intertwined through economics.

Harsh, but true.

[MacGorilla]

I found the picture both moving and disturbing.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Where is this picture? (Thread title) Though I don't know why.

Looks like in an Airplane.

[badidea]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Bull hockey, we could have went against Japan and left Germany alone. After all, Germany didn't attack us. Where would you be then?

Maybe we would rule the world in a way I wouldn't like it (or maybe I would like it but I didn't raise in that world and so I don't know)?!?

Maybe we would "only" rule Europe and were still trying to attack every country that could be a potential danger to our "safety" and maybe would be fighting this war in the country of Iraq right now?

I don't know and I am very glad that I don't want to know!

Where would YOU be then?


(edit: please don't take this post too serious)

[voyageur]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I've said it a dozen times, and I'll say it again:

Friends don't let their friends do STUPID things.

America just *may* be leading the world straight into WWIII, if they keep playing into the hands of the terrorists as they are now.

Get used to people disagreeing when you do stupid things, be those people in your debt or not.

-s*

Let's make it the 13th time. Worth posting again.

[MacGorilla]

When I asked where this picture was, I asked why hasn't shown up in the media. And don't throw any left/right conspiracies at me. I'm curious.

[voyageur]

In his press conference last week, when asked a similar question, Bush responded, "I don't like to see dead people. It's discouraging."

[lil'babykitten]

Wasn't part of the reason why public support fell for the government during Vietnam because Americans saw all the coffins arriving back? Perhaps the current government 'learnt' from that. Too bad they didn't learn not to repeat the actions that result in coffins, containing US soldiers, returning from foreign lands.

[voyageur]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Wasn't part of the reason why public support fell for the government during Vietnam because Americans saw all the coffins arriving back? Perhaps the current government 'learnt' from that. Too bad they didn't learn not to repeat the actions that result in coffins, containing US soldiers, returning from foreign lands.

Yup.
Ho Chi Minh on America during Viet Nam: "They will kill many of us. And we will kill some of them. And they will tire of it first." And we did.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by voyageur:
Yup.
Ho Chi Minh on America during Viet Nam: "They will kill many of us. And we will kill some of them. And they will tire of it first." And we did.

We didn't tire. We didn't support our troops. Kind of like the PRESS now.

25 of them will equal 1 of us. That is what Ho-Chi-Minh got done by using the US press. The US public was never informed like they are now either, so it hit 10x as hard when they found out. The war was secret, and we slowly pressed into VietNam. Get the facts straight. The USA should have acted, just like we did now, but tell the US public what is going on!

You make these little one-liners seem like they mean something. They don't, and as per your other many hysterical postings, I think you lack much meaning as well.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
They don't, and as per your other many hysterical postings, I think you lack much meaning as well.

And g_f predictably returns to do what he does best - attack other users.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
And g_f predictably returns to do what he does best - attack other users.

Uhm. Ok. And this guy didn't ask for it I suppose. Read some of his other posts.
Cheers.

'Good luck with your elections.