[Simon]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Overreaction on an epic scale.

I agree 100%.

Some people really need to calm down here. Before you freak out ask yourself: what do you need Leopard for? What does Tiger not have that you know Leopard will offer and you can not be without?

10.4.9 is a very stable and modern OS. Who would want to trade that for an unfinished and possibly buggy release of a rushed to the market OS?

I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned that this is actually a good sign for OS X development. Obviously OS X is in such a good state that Apple believes it can pull off OS X resources and let them work on the iPhone. Imagine if they had to pull off iPhone people to help the Leopard team out because those guys were in it up to their necks? Who would rather see that? Personally I think it's a very good sign that OS X is a mature and suitable OS and Apple sees no reason to jump the gun.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by schalliol 

I'm not sure that it will cause an impact at all, and the equity analysts aren't concerned. This is because there's a large buying cycle in late summer each year in the academic community, home community with children/college students, as well as in the government community. All the hubbub about this new OS might send those folks over the edge when making a decision to buy a Mac.

Academic purchases vary in timing of course, but around here major academic purchases are made most often in late winter or early spring. ie. Now, or a few months ago. As for students, they tend to be in August/September.

Originally Posted by Simon 

10.4.9 is a very stable and modern OS. Who would want to trade that for an unfinished and possibly buggy release of a rushed to the market OS?

Some people didn't want to pay again to get Leopard, which is why they're waiting. I'm not one of them, but there are a few in this thread already. I have a couple of switcher friends who are waiting too. 150 bux is 150 bux.

I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned that this is actually a good sign for OS X development. Obviously OS X is in such a good state that Apple believes it can pull off OS X resources and let them work on the iPhone. Imagine if they had to pull off iPhone people to help the Leopard team out because those guys were in it up to their necks? Who would rather see that? Personally I think it's a very good sign that OS X is a mature and suitable OS and Apple sees no reason to jump the gun.

That's awesome. That's the biggest bit of spin in this entire thread.

Translated: "It must be great because they've delayed it!"

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Eug 

That's awesome. That's the biggest bit of spin in this entire thread.
Translated: "It must be great because they've delayed it!"

That's unfair. Obviously the delay isn't great and of course we're all anxious to see Leopard's new features. But those emotions aside, which would you prefer:
• Tiger works and is stable. Apple can afford to delay Leopard.
• Tiger is in an abysmal state. Apple feels it has to rush Leopard to the market.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Some people didn't want to pay again to get Leopard, which is why they're waiting. I'm not one of them, but there are a few in this thread already. I have a couple of switcher friends who are waiting too. 150 bux is 150 bux.

If they don't have any good reason to buy now, good on them for waiting. If they did, the convenience of having the computer would probably be worth $100 to them.

[Grrr]

I noticed a while ago that 10.5 was looking very buggy considering its supposed imminent release date. So the delay doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
What does surprise me is Apple saying the delay is down to the iPhone, which seems a bit, well.. unlikely to say the least. The iPhone is only going to be released to America in June. The rest of the world has to wait until the end of this year, or early 2008. 10.5 however is different as this will be available to everyone all over the world at the same time. Plus, 10.5 already has hundreds of thousands of waiting customers, where as the iPhone is anyones guess right now. They might sell 50, they might sell 50million.
So why would Apple spoil the show for all the worlds eager 10.5 customers, just to keep (as yet unknown) American iPhone customers satisfied? I just don't buy it at all.. Even if Apple has always been rather too America-centric, this is too extreme even by their standards.

To me it absolutely reeks of "Ooops, we're not going to have 10.5 ready on time after all. BUT HEY!!! Look how great our iPhone is gonna be!"
Thus turning Apples little blunder around into positive (and free) publicity for the iPhone.
Its a bit cheeky of Apple to say the least, but its hardly unheard of for companies to pull tricks like that these days.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Some people didn't want to pay again to get Leopard, which is why they're waiting. I'm not one of them, but there are a few in this thread already. I have a couple of switcher friends who are waiting too. 150 bux is 150 bux.

How is it worth saving $129 if what you get is an unfinished and possibly buggy product?

Where's the problem with buying now and seeing later on if Loepard's added value is worth $129? If your work absolutely requires a Leopard feature (which one would that be btw?) I'm sure $129 is a small price to pay.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Simon 

How is it worth saving $129 if what you get is an unfinished and possibly buggy product?

Where's the problem in buying now and seeing later on if Loepard's added value is worth $129? If your work absolutely requires a Leopard feature (which one would that be btw?) I'm sure $129 is a small price to pay.

Just because you happen to think that way doesn't mean everyone else does. The bottom line is that some people would prefer to wait for Leopard, and simply won't buy their new MacBook or whatever with Tiger. That is evidenced by posters in this thread already.

It is the nature of some consumers to want the latest and (hopefully) greatest, and when it means actually saving $150 (CAD), for some people it is definitely justifiable. Hell, for a Mac mini, that's more than 1/5th of the price.

However, like I said, I don't think it will have a huge impact on Apple's bottom line, even though I think the impact will be more than zero.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The bottom line is that some people would prefer to wait for Leopard, and simply won't buy their new MacBook or whatever with Tiger. That is evidenced by posters in this thread already.

Then those people will just have to wait for October. It's there own free choice. If somebody feels $129 is worth waiting for October that's absolutely fine with me. But the people now ranting away about how terrible this is and how much they are suffering from this delay would probably be better off spending $129 to buy themselves some peace. Jeez.

[schalliol]

I think there will be some benefits to OS X from the iPhone's development. Isn't the iPhone based upon OS X after all? Having a very finite amount of power to work with will mean that programmers will need to learn to be even more efficient than they have had to be with OS X. Taking those lessons to OS X will make it cleaner and be able to operate more quickly on whatever machine it runs than without these lessons. After all, iPhone cannot be allowed to crash and it must work with appliance-level consistancy. Thoughts?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Grrr 

What does surprise me is Apple saying the delay is down to the iPhone, which seems a bit, well.. unlikely to say the least. The iPhone is only going to be released to America in June. The rest of the world has to wait until the end of this year, or early 2008. 10.5 however is different as this will be available to everyone all over the world at the same time. Plus, 10.5 already has hundreds of thousands of waiting customers, where as the iPhone is anyones guess right now. They might sell 50, they might sell 50million.
So why would Apple spoil the show for all the worlds eager 10.5 customers, just to keep (as yet unknown) American iPhone customers satisfied? I just don't buy it at all.. Even if Apple has always been a rather too America-centric, this is too extreme even by their standards.

The iPhone release is a make-or-break thing. Not only does Apple probably have contracts they need to keep (e.g., with Cingular) regarding the phone's release, it is absolutely imperative that everything goes right. They only get one shot at releasing this thing. Leopard, meanwhile, is an upgrade to an already very good operating system. If the iPhone gets delayed or sucks, that's catastrophe for a whole product line. Leopard getting delayed for a short time has no real negative consequences except for those of us on MacNN who have to endure the histrionics.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by schalliol 

I think there will be some benefits to OS X from the iPhone's development. Isn't the iPhone based upon OS X after all? Having a very finite amount of power to work with will mean that programmers will need to learn to be even more efficient than they have had to be with OS X. Taking those lessons to OS X will make it cleaner and be able to operate more quickly on whatever machine it runs than without these lessons. After all, iPhone cannot be allowed to crash and it must work with appliance-level consistancy. Thoughts?

Perhaps, but I'm a bit more interested in the next iPod.

My 5G/5.5G iPod feels a bit long in the tooth. I want to see a widescreen thin iPod with Coverflow of course, and I don't want it to be the iPhone.

[Grrr]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

The iPhone release is a make-or-break thing. Not only does Apple probably have contracts they need to keep (e.g., with Cingular) regarding the phone's release, it is absolutely imperative that everything goes right. They only get one shot at releasing this thing. Leopard, meanwhile, is an upgrade to an already very good operating system. If the iPhone gets delayed or sucks, that's catastrophe for a whole product line. Leopard getting delayed for a short time has no real negative consequences except for those of us on MacNN who have to endure the histrionics.

Good and fair points
However, this does somewhat take us back to some earlier comments on the 1st page, where some folks thought Apple was devoting too much time to iPods, and Phones plus other nik nak sundries, and not enough time concentrating on what they are known for, which is making computers and a great OS. Which right now is a sentiment I share too.
Having said that, 10.5 being delayed is of no real consequence to me personally. Im happy enough to take it when its good and ready, whether I buy it separately or comes included on a new Mac I may buy..

[Eug]

All I can say though is now if the new iMac doesn't come by May, I'll be very annoyed. There's no reason for an iMac delay, now that Leopard is waiting until Halloween or whatever.

[schalliol]

I would expect that next gen video iPods will be based on this OS, so if you want the next gen iPod, you may very well want this development

[Madrag]

I would translate Simons' paragraph to "they've delayed it because it's already very stable and the iPhone is the new thing"
I understand delays as being a sign of incompetence, not the other way arround.
I never deliver a project delayed, the only reason to deliver it delayed would be if I didn't plan it correctly...
In order to deliver it on time if I have to stay up for days in a row I will, or hire help, I will do so, in the end I'll deliver it on time.

Apple didn't plan it correctly? (of course that's not the point here) or why didn't they allocate more people to the OS or new(er) people to the iPhone dev?
No, they just don't have it as a priority.

That's why I said the software+HW aren't important anymore, now the gadgets are. That's not an "Overreaction on an epic scale", that's more like "pissed off on an average scale" ;D

I don't mind that much the six month wait, what I mind is the attention given to the iPhone. As I said in another thread, the iPhone won't pay my food, the Mac+OS will.
I'm happy with the 10.4.9, but would (hopefully) be happier with the 10.5 and delivered on time.

One more thing: one reason the delays piss me off is that once started it almost becomes an habbit. I've seen clients and design studios that do it on a regular basis.

[Wiskedjak]

In related news:
Microsoft releases the pink Zune one month ahead of schedule.
Forget May, Pink Zune available now - Engadget

[schalliol]

Huh, didn't realize they still were making Zunes. They probably planned it to come out ahead of schedule. It's only changing the color after all. Shocking that pink wasn't one of the original colors and brown was.

[Chuckit]

Pink was one of the original colors, if I recall, but it was basically a rare version of some other Zune.

[utw-Mephisto]

Hopefully they use the time also to develop some driver for the 8800 in the process so I can get my hyper Mac in October

[lpkmckenna]

...we had to borrow some key software engineering and QA resources from our Mac OS X team, and as a result we will not be able to release Leopard at our Worldwide Developers Conference in early June as planned.

I'm sad. Of course, I planned to buy both an iPhone and Leopard, so at least now I know I'll have 4-5 months of uninterrupted iPhone joy without Leopard distractions.

Of course, we finally know when Leopard was planned for release. Any clues about when iLife or iWork will be updated? I hate being treated like a mushroom.

While Leopard's features will be complete by then...

So June thru October will be entirely devoted to QA? Really?

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Anyway, to paraphrase a comment I read somewhere else, "A late product will eventually be good. A bad product will just be bad."

According this logic then, Vista should have been absolutely fantastic.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

According this logic then, Vista should have been absolutely fantastic.

Nope. A bad product will just be bad. Miyamoto hit it on the head.

[Wiskedjak]

So far, I'm liking Vista.

[dawho9]

I wouldn't mind Vista if I wasn't on the fourth time it boots up to a config.sys error and makes me run through a 6 hour repair mode. Of course, I will give M$ credit for allowing me to do a system restore from the DVD now - which is really nice. The only problem is, you can't get to System Restore until you went through the first two long and time consuming tasks first.

dw9

[mitchell_pgh]

This is just a tiny blip on the radar. While I'm upset that I won't be getting Time Machine in the next few months, six months isn't that big of a deal in my book. I just hope that Leopard is solid at 10.5.0...

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by Simon 

That's unfair. Obviously the delay isn't great and of course we're all anxious to see Leopard's new features. But those emotions aside, which would you prefer:
• Tiger works and is stable. Apple can afford to delay Leopard.
• Tiger is in an abysmal state. Apple feels it has to rush Leopard to the market.

What kind of twisted logic is that to fit to the "If Apple does something it must be for the best of all possible reasons" rationalisation?

It isn't an either or.

One doesn't rule out the other.

One doesn't cause the other.

Apple has missed their shipping date. Again.

Sheer hypocracy after lambasting Microsoft repeatedly for the same thing. October may slip as well.

This is turning into a chain of disappointed expectations as it leads to delays in related software which is also waiting on Leopard and delayed purchases of hardware.

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by JKT 

It isn't just $129 for OS X (actually, it is nearer $200 for us Brits), it is all the extras on top as well that mean a new machine purchase will save me around $400 to $500 in extra software costs because of the bundled software and new features...

Am I the only Mac-head thinking this way?

No. I and my son are in exactly the same boat. Outside the States all the associated costs are multiplied.

My son saved up to buy his iMac 24" last September. This will make the delayed purchase well over a year, even if October turns into the real shipping date and stocks become available. More like November all things going well. It takes an exciting purchase, his first computer bought with his own money, and turns it into a long drawn out disappointment.

A delayed OS gets features cut, just like Vista, and maybe bugs don't get fixed as well to meet even an embarrasingly delayed shipping date.

The whole "Apple ships, Microsoft slips" myth has been punctured and any impact from the supposed "Leopard outclasses Vista" argument will have all the force of a wet dishcloth.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

What kind of twisted logic is that to fit to the "If Apple does something it must be for the best of all possible reasons" rationalisation?
...
This is turning into a chain of disappointed expectations as it leads to delays in related software which is also waiting on Leopard and delayed purchases of hardware.

What's with all the anger?

Obviously nobody likes the delay and you can be certain Apple isn't enjoying it either. Every sale lost in the upcoming quarter due to the lack of Leopard hurts them. But obviously Apple believes it can live with 10.4.9 for a while longer while they cannot take the risk of releasing a buggy or incomplete iPhone 1.0. Now of course your view on that might be different, but the bottom line is Apple has limited resources. They obviously had to make a choice. Not everybody would have made the same one, but this is obviously how it's gonna be. It's useless to discuss the pros and cons of the delay because the delay is a certainty - it's not as if Apple's going to change their mind because a bunch of posters on MacNN fill dozens of pages with rants. What we can discuss however are implications of this delay and what consequences it might have for Apple as a company, the future of OS X and iLife, and us the users.

IMHO there are now three things a potential buyer can consider:
• If you know you need a certain Leopard or iLife Leopard feature and you can afford to wait till October -> wait
• If you want the Leopard features, but don't want to wait -> don't wait, shell out another $129 in October (consider the $129 as an investment into having a stable OS X box a full 6 months ahead of the Leopard release)
• If you think Apple has completely dropped the ball and Vista already offers whatever you expected to get from Leopard -> buy Vista, screw Mac OS X

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

A delayed OS gets features cut, just like Vista, and maybe bugs don't get fixed as well to meet even an embarrasingly delayed shipping date.

Bullshit. Which features have been cut?

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

The whole "Apple ships, Microsoft slips" myth has been punctured and any impact from the supposed "Leopard outclasses Vista" argument will have all the force of a wet dishcloth.

Dude, just go use Windows already. Seriously. God, you don't even make any sense. Moving Leopard's release date four months back to do QA is not the same as Microsoft cutting 75% of Longhorn's features and shipping it three years late. Learn2logic.

[rubaiyat]

See previous posts.

Learn2Read.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

See previous posts.

Learn2Read.

I don't see anywhere that you've cited these major feature cuts. Link or it didn't happen.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

No. I and my son are in exactly the same boat. Outside the States all the associated costs are multiplied.

My son saved up to buy his iMac 24" last September. This will make the delayed purchase well over a year, even if October turns into the real shipping date and stocks become available. More like November all things going well. It takes an exciting purchase, his first computer bought with his own money, and turns it into a long drawn out disappointment.

?!? Why didn't buy it in September? That's when when the 24" came out. Or if you're talking Leopard: If you seriously thought the 24" iMac would have Leopard on it in September '06, or even January '07, then you weren't paying attention.

A delayed OS gets features cut, just like Vista, and maybe bugs don't get fixed as well to meet even an embarrasingly delayed shipping date.

Now you're making stuff up.

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I don't see anywhere that you've cited these major feature cuts. Link or it didn't happen.

I'm constantly puzzled by your comprehension skills.

It's a forecast of a possible eventuality based on previous experience. Microsoft cut features in Vista and Apple has enormous latitude to do the same when it keeps Leopard's features "Secret". What you don't see you'll never miss.

But if you insist I'll make up a web page, the link should then be "proof".

Seems to work for others, when I posted that Apple was likely to miss its Spring deadline just as Microsoft missed theirs. The "proof" was that Apple said Spring, then it got down to fatuous splitting of hairs when exactly Spring ends.

You take your reference as absolutely true (because you want it to be) then build a whole "science" around the analysis of it. When it turns out to be nothing but the fanciful conjecture that others thought was obvious, you develop a whole new rationalisation to cover up your tracks.

Bit like American foreign policy really. Wonder if it is a national trait?

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by Eug 

?!? Why didn't buy it in September? That's when when the 24" came out. Or if you're talking Leopard: If you seriously thought the 24" iMac would have Leopard on it in September '06, or even January '07, then you weren't paying attention.

My son started earning the money well before September, it took him over 15 months. At that time it was posited that Leopard would be early 2007, already a delay from previous forecasts of 2006.

As September came around Spring seemed to be the new deadline, but we should know by the January Macworld. As you well know it didn't even get a mention then, in fact up until recently Spring was definite. Now October is a maybe, no more real than Spring was. Each time it is just another little wait.

As someone remarked earlier, once deadlines slip, it becomes a habit.

He is waiting on 3 things. Leopard, updates to iWorks and updates to the iMac. He is still waiting but the enthusiasm has markedly diminished.

For people who can't wait more than 5 minutes for food, "Hey what are you doing back there? Cooking it?" and who think Apple TV and DLable iTunes are just fantastic because it instantly gratifies consumer whim, I am amazed that long delays are just dandy. So long as it is Apple and not Microsoft that is spinning them out.

[Eug]

It's a forecast of a possible eventuality based on previous experience. Microsoft cut features in Vista and Apple has enormous latitude to do the same when it keeps Leopard's features "Secret". What you don't see you'll never miss.

Microsoft ≠ Apple

I fully expect to see in the October release of Leopard:

64-bit support
Core Animation
Time Machine
Spaces
Boot Camp
etc.

So you're complaining about losing features you don't even know exist?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

It's a forecast of a possible eventuality

Read: "I made it up just to complain about it."

You really are insanely negative. Try not convincing yourself of the worst possible outcome all the time. You might find the world sucks less than you think.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Call it a "Browser" then, it is still the native file under the File menu not a "window". They do not use the Windows menu which is the 7th menu from the left. Putting "New Window" under File menu and then having a Window menu is in itself illogical.

While that may sound good to you in theory, in practice this would end up confusing a lot of users. The Window menu is usually used as a window switcher, similar to Exposé, right-clicking the Dock icon, command-~, etc. and other than bringing up global utility windows like Safari's Downloads window, it's rarely used for any essential functionality or functionality that can't be found elsewhere. Furthermore, like I said before, a browser is the type of "file" associated with an app such as Safari or Finder. A user sees a new browser as a window, because that is what they see on their screen, and thus they will expect New Window in the File menu to be what to use to bring up a new Safari window. If you were to bury this 6 menus over, I guarantee you would confuse the crap out of a lot of people.

See we're not that far apart It is just an instance of the awkward and backwards approach that I find unfortunately common in OSX.

Myself, I just consider that a missing feature, but hey.

And I have not responded yet to your other posting on selections because it is time consuming, even though I have gathered extensive details for that as well.

For a complete pwnage related to the selections, please see the 10.5 wishlist thread, where I am going to post it, since this really isn't the right thread. Be forewarned, though - your argument is going to be destroyed.

Then we agree, just not in the detail.

We agree that Apple is run by humans and thus is imperfect. I would have thought that was common sense, though.

[macdaemon]

I think most of you missing the whole picture.
Move to Intel, consumer products AppleTV, iPhone.
What next? The next big thing is MacOS X for generic PC and get out from PC business. Probably you'll see on Sunday new iPods with WiFi because they need to sale something before the iPhone release. The "top-secret" new features is probably integration with Vista and a lot of drivers for the most PC hardware. This is really personal thing between Bill and Steve and it's a time for fight. So, let's cross our fingers for the Apple software development team.

[rubaiyat]

I haven't got time to respond further, I'm off North.

Just to say you keep getting the wrong end of the stick. I am not saying that whatever cmd N does should be under the Windows menu. I am saying that is where it logically should be in the users eyes if your statement that it opens new windows is true.

How many times can I repeat that New under the File menu can only mean New File even if you are silly enough to call it "New Window" which only happens in Finder and Safari.

It comes back to for 15 years and more cmd N in the Finder created a new Folder. People learned that. To change the convention to another one whilst simultaneously making the idea inconsistent throughout the long list of Apple software I cited, was just bloody mindedness. As was changes to selection procedures.

It didn't help. Not one jot. Consistency was the golden grail on the Mac, really the family jewels. Now it gets tossed out whenever Steve says so. Churn for churn's sake.

[mduell]

Maybe the delay will give them time to add Home on iPod? It was supposed to be in Tiger (per the Apple website) but was not released.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Maybe the delay will give them time to add Home on iPod? It was supposed to be in Tiger (per the Apple website) but was not released.

That was accidentally put on the Apple Panther site and quickly taken down, if I recall. It was never actually an announced feature of Tiger.

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Read: "I made it up just to complain about it."

'spose it'll be my fault when it happens. Not simply a realistic view of the situation.

I cited Soctares before. Do you know what his crime was? "Corrupting the youth of Athens" by saying the expedition to attack Syracus was immoral, stupid and probably going to be a disaster.

When the Athenians forced him to drink the hemlock it didn't bring any of the dead back and Athens then collapsed because they had learnt nothing.

"They who refuse to learn from history are forever doomed to repeat it"

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

'spose it'll be my fault when it happens. Not simply a realistic view of the situation.

I cited Soctares before. Do you know what his crime was? "Corrupting the youth of Athens" by saying the expedition to attack Syracus was immoral, stupid and probably going to be a disaster.

When the Athenians forced him to drink the hemlock it didn't bring any of the dead back and Athens still collapsed because they had learnt nothing.

"They who refuse to learn from history are forever doomed to repeat it"

WTF are you talking about?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

WTF are you talking about?

He says if you don't learn about the mythical evil ancient Greeks, they'll poison you with hemlock.

[rubaiyat]

History.

Guess you fall within the quoted.

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by Eug 

He says if you don't learn about the mythical evil ancient Greeks, they'll poison you with hemlock.

After first torturing you with logic and points of philosophy

[rubaiyat]

Guess there are 2 kinds of people.

Those who link to "300", and those with a clue.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Just to say you keep getting the wrong end of the stick. I am not saying that whatever cmd N does should be under the Windows menu. I am saying that is where it logically should be in the users eyes if your statement that it opens new windows is true.

How many times can I repeat that New under the File menu can only mean New File even if you are silly enough to call it "New Window"

Again (I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat this) the type of "document" for a browser is a browser window. It's what the user expects to happen when you choose New in such an application, and it is much closer to what "New" does in a document-based app than creating a folder. It certainly makes a lot more sense than "Quit" under the "File" menu. I guess that should "Quit File" - what does that even mean?

Am I correct in reading that you are now saying that you think Safari and Finder shouldn't have any "New Window" item at all?

which only happens in Finder and Safari.

And MacWeb, and Mosaic, and Netscape, and Internet Explorer, and iCab, and Opera, and Fetch, and every damn browser-type application I ever used under OS 9.

It comes back to for 15 years and more cmd N in the Finder created a new Folder.

Emphasis on "in the Finder." Command-N in every other app did pretty much the same thing, but in the Finder it did something completely different.

People learned that. To change the convention to another one whilst simultaneously making the idea inconsistent throughout the long list of Apple software I cited, was just bloody mindedness.

No, it was just to make things more logical. Such as moving "Quit" to the Application menu instead of the File menu (or are you dead-set against that, too?).

As was changes to selection procedures.

See pwnage here: http://forums.macnn.com/90/mac-os-x/...8/#post3354338

The Finder's selection behavior violated the classic Mac OS Interface Guidelines.

It didn't help. Not one jot. Consistency was the golden grail on the Mac, really the family jewels.

The consistency on OS 9 was pretty good. The Finder was a massive, glaring exception to that.

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Again (I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat this) the type of "document" for a browser is a browser window. It's what the user expects to happen when you choose New in such an application, and it is much closer to what "New" does in a document-based app than creating a folder. It certainly makes a lot more sense than "Quit" under the "File" menu. I guess that should "Quit File" - what does that even mean?

We agree on cmd N in browsers, just for different reasons. You keep insisting it is a window, I that it is a new file/object of the app. Let's stop quibbling there.

If the command is New Window it should appear under the Window menu. Seems obvious to me, don't know why you are struggling with it.

Am I correct in reading that you are now saying that you think Safari and Finder shouldn't have any "New Window" item at all?

How do you come to that conclusion?

No, it was just to make things more logical. Such as moving "Quit" to the Application menu instead of the File menu (or are you dead-set against that, too?).

No, why should I be? It makes sense and is consistent.

The Finder's selection behavior violated the classic Mac OS Interface Guidelines.

Irregardless that is what it did and so was what people naturally expected. The "New" behaviour varies depending where you are and conflicts long used consistent behaviour in graphics programs. Including those Apple wrote.

The consistency on OS 9 was pretty good. The Finder was a massive, glaring exception to that.

The consistency in OSX is now bad (see my list). So where did the change get us?

As to Finder how do you get "massive, glaring exception" from cmd N creating a Folder, the only tangible thing Finder creates? ... and it did it long, long before there were any Internet browsers. This is the back to front thinking I was talking about.

In classical Mac we had learnt to expect certain results and could guess on extensions of that behaviour. In OSX I am constantly wasting time finding the constant exceptions to the "rule", whatever that may be today, and hence can not anticipate what new circumstances might require. Much like in Windows.

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Let's continue this in detail in the other forum, when I get back. Try and get together a list of behaviours and check for exceptions. I have found many. You may think that is nitpicking but I consider it GUI debugging and wish Apple still took that seriously.

Ciao for now.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

As to Finder how do you get "massive, glaring exception" from cmd N creating a Folder, the only tangible thing Finder creates?

Command-N generally doesn't create anything tangible. It creates a new editor or viewer window into which things might be placed. It's an important distinction. If you hit command-N in TextEdit, no file is created; just a window you can type into.

Most importantly, in any multi-window app, command-N creates a window.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

In classical Mac we had learnt to expect certain results and could guess on extensions of that behaviour. In OSX I am constantly wasting time finding the constant exceptions to the "rule", whatever that may be today, and hence can not anticipate what new circumstances might require.

Wait, is this about exceptions to rules (which you have not established as being more prevalent in OS X) or is this about changing things from how OS 9 used to be? CharlesS has thoroughly proven that OS 9's Finder was quite inconsistent both with practical and prescribed behaviors.