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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > Another huge design flaw in Safari... I really cant believe nobody mentinoed THIS one

Another huge design flaw in Safari... I really cant believe nobody mentinoed THIS one
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trusted_content
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Jan 9, 2003, 09:30 PM
 
The timout message is ridiculous.

I cruise a lot of websites that have heavy activity during certain parts of the day and can't be depended on to respond within the ridiculous timeframe of 30 seconds. Instead of just waiting, Safari cancels the request and pops up an annoying dialog (bringing itself to the front in the process, interrupting whatever I'm doing) saying the website timed out... this is RETARDED. This has made some of my favorite sites unusable during most of the day as I have to click reload 10 times just to get a page to load because Safari is too d4mn impatient to just wait.

I "bug"ged that within 5 minutes of getting the program. I did it twice just to make sure Apple gets the message.
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Art Vandelay
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Jan 9, 2003, 09:41 PM
 
Umm, people have complained about it. They just didn't create another thread for it.
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trusted_content  (op)
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Jan 9, 2003, 09:50 PM
 
Ive been sitting on this board for a good part of the last two days, I can't believe I missed that.

Thanks for informing me.

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itai195
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Jan 9, 2003, 10:11 PM
 
Wow, and I thought the thread title was being sarcastic

May I take the opportunity to post a short rant? Why is it that everyone kissed OmniWeb's ass for nearly two years when that browser was chock full of holes and problems, while a BETA version of Safari gets hacked, slashed, and flamed all over this board?
     
Millennium
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Jan 9, 2003, 10:29 PM
 
I'm going to agree with you, but the error message is not the worst part of this flaw. The worst part is that once you get this message, any form buttons on the page are "unhooked", so you can't just click again to resubmit the form.

This was a large part of why I blasted Safari's handling of the MacNN site in the main Safari discussion thread. The 30-second timeout is annoying enough, but combined with this button-unhooking bug, it can render discussion forums totally unusable.
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Montanan
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Jan 9, 2003, 10:41 PM
 
Originally posted by itai195:
May I take the opportunity to post a short rant? Why is it that everyone kissed OmniWeb's ass for nearly two years when that browser was chock full of holes and problems, while a BETA version of Safari gets hacked, slashed, and flamed all over this board?
That was exactly my thought, too. Safari in beta is already more functional than the OW "finals" ever were. Cut Safari some slack, at least until it gets to the 1,0 final.
     
atomium
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Jan 9, 2003, 10:45 PM
 
Definitely a problem! I got overconfident with beta software and booked plane tickets last night with Safari.

It (way too quickly) timed out on my final submission of credit card info / confirmation. Dumped the page and I couldn't backtrack. All I could go back to was the original search for flights. Had to go through hoops to get someone on the phone just to see if my booking went through.

Worst of all, I didn't get the nice e-ticket confirmation to print out. All I have is an e-mail confirmation that came a while later.

Ugh. Never again.

-atomium
     
KidRed
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Jan 9, 2003, 10:59 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
I'm going to agree with you, but the error message is not the worst part of this flaw. The worst part is that once you get this message, any form buttons on the page are "unhooked", so you can't just click again to resubmit the form.

This was a large part of why I blasted Safari's handling of the MacNN site in the main Safari discussion thread. The 30-second timeout is annoying enough, but combined with this button-unhooking bug, it can render discussion forums totally unusable.
Actaully, the submit button dies after any attempt to submit fails. Type a reply to this topic, hit submit and then quickly hit stop. The submit will not work any longer. This is very annoying so the 30 seconds is only a result of the one time only submit button.
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mitchell_pgh
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Jan 9, 2003, 11:02 PM
 
I would have to say that Apple has created an AMAZING beta. Yes, all of these things are issues that I really, really hope that Apple takes care of. But calling these things ?huge design flaws? is a bit premature.

If Apple had released this as 1.0, then yes, you would have every right in the world to complain. Beta software is intended for early adopters. Hopefully Apple gives out a public beta 2 and then comes out with a 1.0 version.

Regarding Netscape, OmniWeb, etc. etc. etc. I find most of them seriously flawed. Netscape is probably the most capable, but DOG slow. Most of the others were much faster, but had major implementation flaws.

Safari is going to have an interesting time.
     
raferx
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Jan 10, 2003, 01:54 AM
 
Safari in BETA!!!! wipes the floor with any other browser for OS X out there, IE can kiss my butt, and OW IS STILL SLOW!!! Forget NS, it sux so bad I can't believe ANYONE still uses it. BLLEECCCHHH!!!! To everyone bitching about Safari (in first release BETA) I say I GO BACK TO YOUR OLD BROWSERS. I've never seen so many whiners in my life! Hit the button REPORT BUG TO APPLE in the menu bar and be done with with it.

Cheers,
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Adam Betts
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Jan 10, 2003, 03:45 AM
 
Originally posted by raferx:
Safari in BETA!!!! wipes the floor with any other browser for OS X out there, IE can kiss my butt, and OW IS STILL SLOW!!! Forget NS, it sux so bad I can't believe ANYONE still uses it. BLLEECCCHHH!!!! To everyone bitching about Safari (in first release BETA) I say I GO BACK TO YOUR OLD BROWSERS. I've never seen so many whiners in my life! Hit the button REPORT BUG TO APPLE in the menu bar and be done with with it.

Thank you. That's my thought too

     
Xeo
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Jan 10, 2003, 04:06 AM
 
Originally posted by raferx:
Safari in BETA!!!! wipes the floor with any other browser for OS X out there, IE can kiss my butt, and OW IS STILL SLOW!!! Forget NS, it sux so bad I can't believe ANYONE still uses it. BLLEECCCHHH!!!! To everyone bitching about Safari (in first release BETA) I say I GO BACK TO YOUR OLD BROWSERS. I've never seen so many whiners in my life! Hit the button REPORT BUG TO APPLE in the menu bar and be done with with it.

Letting other people know about the flaws you find isn't necessarily whining. When others see and agree with what you find, they will submit the bug too, and Apple will accordingly fix the ones with the most response first. Now, that doesn't mean that every bug or missing feature needs it's own thread, but there is value in discussing it.

I agree though. Apple did the right thing and released this as a beta so they can get the bugs worked out. They probably should have done the same with other pieces of software. The difference is that there is so much competition in the browser world, that Apple needed to make clear that they are still working on it, and the only way test millions of web sites is to get a couple hundred thousand testers on the project.
     
absmiths
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Jan 10, 2003, 12:09 PM
 
Originally posted by Xeo:
Letting other people know about the flaws you find isn't necessarily whining. When others see and agree with what you find, they will submit the bug too, and Apple will accordingly fix the ones with the most response first. Now, that doesn't mean that every bug or missing feature needs it's own thread, but there is value in discussing it.
Although, to be fair, this sort or prioritizing actually skews the numbers. If 50% of users encounter a problem and report it, then you get say 100,000 reports of the issue. If, however, 10% of users encounter a problem and inform all of their friends or other users via message boards, and they all report it, then you might have another bug report with 100,000 reports even though it actually only affected 1/5th as many users.
     
Metzen
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Jan 10, 2003, 03:24 PM
 
Originally posted by absmiths:
then you might have another bug report with 100,000 reports even though it actually only affected 1/5th as many users.
But the end result is the same... The bug get's fixed.
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alex_kac
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Jan 10, 2003, 06:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
But the end result is the same... The bug get's fixed.
Wrong. Developers have priorities and limited time. If a developer gets skewed info on what are the worst bugs, he may have to decide that bug a (which really affected 50% of people, but got 10% of the reports) is less important than bug b (which affected 10% of the people but got 50% of the reports) and may even decide that bug a doesn't affect enough people to take care of in release 1.0 - and will wait until a later release.

It is BAD to skew reports.
     
photoeditor
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Jan 10, 2003, 06:23 PM
 
While Safari beta is astonishingly good it does have its flaws; some web site glitches, consistently inconsistent on what size it renders text at, and attempting to override given web site fonts with its own too aggressively. The flaw at hand in this thread is one to be expected in a world where the people who design it have probably forgotten what dialing up to the internet rather than using broadband is like. Simply gently remind Apple that three quarters of the world at least is still dialing up to the internet. 30 seconds is a non-issue on cable or T1 LAN, at least it has been a non-issue for me, but I'm sure it would be a major problem on dialup.
     
trusted_content  (op)
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Jan 10, 2003, 07:00 PM
 
I have cable which regularly kets up to 200 kb/s and I get this problem on certain sites.

The Safari team needs to recognize that both:

* some peeps are on dialup
* some servers are really slow

And get rid of this bug!
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Mike Pither
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Jan 10, 2003, 07:11 PM
 
I think the first poster is correct, the problem is the title "Another huge design flaw......." This makes it sound like Apple have made some enormous **** up which will now be incredibly difficult if not impossible to fix. The reality is of course that it will be very simple to fix (assuming they agree it is a problem that is.)
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itai195
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Jan 10, 2003, 07:41 PM
 
Originally posted by alex_kac:
Wrong. Developers have priorities and limited time. If a developer gets skewed info on what are the worst bugs, he may have to decide that bug a (which really affected 50% of people, but got 10% of the reports) is less important than bug b (which affected 10% of the people but got 50% of the reports) and may even decide that bug a doesn't affect enough people to take care of in release 1.0 - and will wait until a later release.

It is BAD to skew reports.
This is what project managers are for. Developers are notoriously poor at prioritizing bugs. Quantity of reports is by no means the only factor.
     
redJag
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Jan 10, 2003, 07:57 PM
 
I don't see what is so great about Safari. It's not exactly fast, no real innovative design. Although it is a slim browser, ~7MB, it doesn't really offer much. It doesn't render pages written to standard correctly (mostly CSS2 issues).
Chimera loads pages faster/renders faster. Imports/exports multiple types of bookmarks (NOT just IE's) and renders pages correctly. I have never seen a page render incorrectly on it. Safari is about 1/3 the size of Chimera, but that's the ONLY advantage I see after using it. Since I have 2 80GB hard drives..Chimera is for me.

Oh ya, you can browse mutliple sites in one window via tabbed browsing with Chimera (optional yay). Now I hate organizing my windows so that I can see em all. Apple needs to come up with something similar for Safari. I saw a suggestion that utilized a drawer on this board that was pretty good.
     
itai195
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Jan 10, 2003, 08:31 PM
 
For me it runs faster than Chimera. While many like Chimera, it's not exactly a major player in the browser arena. The perception in the public is that Macs are slow for internet browsing. The only way to remedy this is for a MAJOR browser from a MAJOR software company (which limits it to Netscape, IE, or an Apple browser) to speed things up significantly. That's exactly what Apple is doing. Even if you don't like Safari and prefer Chimera, you have to admit that it's a good thing Apple is doing something about this negative perception of Mac performance.
     
   
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