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Unix or Linux?
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PHoynak
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Apr 21, 2003, 10:17 PM
 
I hope this is the correct place to ask this. I have an old PC (PII 300 Mhz). I want to setup a server to share my MP3's over my home network. Could Linux do this (or Unix)? How do I get around the fact that all of my MP3's are on my Mac, can Linux or Unix read a Mac formatted hard drive? The PC would only be for serving the MP3's, nothing more. This is mainly a project to see if I can do it since I am going to school for networking.
     
Metzen
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Apr 22, 2003, 03:42 AM
 
Originally posted by PHoynak:
I hope this is the correct place to ask this. I have an old PC (PII 300 Mhz). I want to setup a server to share my MP3's over my home network. Could Linux do this (or Unix)? How do I get around the fact that all of my MP3's are on my Mac, can Linux or Unix read a Mac formatted hard drive? The PC would only be for serving the MP3's, nothing more. This is mainly a project to see if I can do it since I am going to school for networking.
Unless your doing this because your taking a UNIX networking course, use Windows 2000 Server. You can setup a DFS (Distributed File System) which will map different files from different locations to appear as if they are on one share, on one computer.

I'm not aware of Linux's or Unix's ability to do either, except that you could store your files on a AFP (Apple File Protocol) share (the file sharing system Apple uses), a FTP share, or a SMB share (assuming your using OS 10, or OS 9 with DAVE from Thursby Software. If you use FTP you can use SMB to share files over the network by "mapping" a virtual directory to your SMB share. All other protocols need 3rd party software to implement any sort of DFS sharing.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
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Apr 22, 2003, 09:02 AM
 
Use BeOS on that beast. With SoundPlay, you can stream to anyone, anywhere, with very little effort.
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Arkham_c
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Apr 22, 2003, 10:15 AM
 
Originally posted by PHoynak:
I hope this is the correct place to ask this. I have an old PC (PII 300 Mhz). I want to setup a server to share my MP3's over my home network. Could Linux do this (or Unix)? How do I get around the fact that all of my MP3's are on my Mac, can Linux or Unix read a Mac formatted hard drive? The PC would only be for serving the MP3's, nothing more. This is mainly a project to see if I can do it since I am going to school for networking.
Linux can do this perfectly. Just set it up with SAMBA for Windows sharing and AFP for Mac sharing. You can mount the Linux drive over the network to Macs and PCs very easily.

Don't use Windows. Windows is always a poor choice for any kind of server, and you will kick yourself if you ever deployed Windows for a company the first time a virus hits you. UNIX is the only secure server solution (I consider Linux to be UNIX in the same way that BSD or MacOSX are UNIX).
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utidjian
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Apr 22, 2003, 01:44 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
Unless your doing this because your taking a UNIX networking course, use Windows 2000 Server. You can setup a DFS (Distributed File System) which will map different files from different locations to appear as if they are on one share, on one computer.

I'm not aware of Linux's or Unix's ability to do either,...
Sure can with Linux/Unix.... been done for years. I do it all the time with Linux on the server side and Mac OS 9/X, Linux, and Windows on the client side. All of it transparent to the user (as it should be.) No "third party" software required... all comes with most Linux distros.
-DU-...etc...
     
PHoynak  (op)
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Apr 22, 2003, 02:09 PM
 
What do I need to look for when getting a linux distro?
     
Rainy Day
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Apr 23, 2003, 09:25 PM
 
Originally posted by Arkham_c:
Don't use Windows. Windows is always a poor choice for any kind of server, and you will kick yourself if you ever deployed Windows for a company the first time a virus hits you. UNIX is the only secure server solution (I consider Linux to be UNIX in the same way that BSD or MacOSX are UNIX).
I'll second that.
     
Metzen
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Apr 24, 2003, 12:23 AM
 
Originally posted by utidjian:
Sure can with Linux/Unix.... been done for years. I do it all the time with Linux on the server side and Mac OS 9/X, Linux, and Windows on the client side. All of it transparent to the user (as it should be.) No "third party" software required... all comes with most Linux distros.
I was posting under the assumption that the MP3's were staying on the Mac. If he's going to transfer them to the Linux machine to share, that's a different story.

Originally posted by PHoynak:
What do I need to look for when getting a linux distro?
Mandrake, it's the easiest one.

Simplest form of advice, if your really gun ho about Linux, start with Mandrake. It was made with user simplicity in mind, and once your comfortable with it, if you feel the need to, you can move on up to more industrial strength distributions.

If your familiar with Windows though and are looking for a quick and dirty approach, that's what I'd choose. Setting up Linux will take some time and patience but in the end it could be all worth it
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Metzen
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Apr 24, 2003, 12:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Arkham_c:
Don't use Windows. Windows is always a poor choice for any kind of server, and you will kick yourself if you ever deployed Windows for a company the first time a virus hits you. UNIX is the only secure server solution (I consider Linux to be UNIX in the same way that BSD or MacOSX are UNIX).
Uhhh... I don't think he said he's using it for business use...

And properly secured, Windows is fine for a server.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
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PHoynak  (op)
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Apr 24, 2003, 09:00 AM
 
I would transfer the mp3's to another hard drive and then install that on the server. I would still have them on my Mac. I probably could just get software for the PC to read a Mac volume but that would be no fun and then how would you learn from that.
     
Arkham_c
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Apr 24, 2003, 09:48 AM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
Uhhh... I don't think he said he's using it for business use...

And properly secured, Windows is fine for a server.
What he said was:

This is mainly a project to see if I can do it since I am going to school for networking.
If he is studying networking, then he needs to know that Windows is a bad server solution so that he doesn't graduate and become another MCSE who thinks Microsoft is an acceptable solution for the enterprise - it's not, it never will be, and any good networking engineer should know this.

And no, Windows is NEVER fine for a server, unless the server is completely isolated from traffic outside of the company's firewall. You don't have the source code, and ten times in the next month there will be a root exploit on IIS or some other critical service that you cannot turn off and still fulfill your server needs.

Even beyond the security issue (which in itself is enough in my book), Windows is not scalable and performant enough to use for anything with a lot of traffic. When I worked at CNN.com, we used Solaris-based UNIX boxes for web servers. Our main competitor, MSNBC.com, used Windows. Whenever a big news story would hit, their site would buckle under the load, but ours would always keep on trucking along, pushing out as much as 250,000 hits/sec.

Windows is fine for the desktop. It's just not a good idea for a server, ever.
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Metzen
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Apr 25, 2003, 04:20 AM
 
Originally posted by Arkham_c:
If he is studying networking, then he needs to know that Windows is a bad server solution so that he doesn't graduate and become another MCSE who thinks Microsoft is an acceptable solution for the enterprise - it's not, it never will be, and any good networking engineer should know this.
Funny how so many companies use Windows 2000 server. Maybe not exclusively as a IIS server, but maybe as a database server or application server or file server or... etc.

Welcome to real world. People *gasp* actually use Windows. Not just consumers either, but *gasp* businesses. Lots of businesses.

A competent network *insert title here* should not be oblivious to certain operating systems just because *you* think it's a bad idea.

Sheesh. And a "network engineer"? I should hope that a network engineer doesn't have to worry about what operating systems are running on what computers, just that you have configured the network equipment properly and can respond to changes in the network if needed quickly. Network engineers should not be worried about what software runs on their network, only that they are full filling the requirements of said network.

A nework administrator on the other hand...

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
And no, Windows is NEVER fine for a server, unless the server is completely isolated from traffic outside of the company's firewall. You don't have the source code, and ten times in the next month there will be a root exploit on IIS or some other critical service that you cannot turn off and still fulfill your server needs.
Same goes for Linux. My god. What happens if your server is serving webpages via Apache and a hacker finds a root exploit for it? You have to turn off Apache *gasp* and then you won't be able to fulfill your server needs.

Sorry man, works both ways...

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
Even beyond the security issue (which in itself is enough in my book), Windows is not scalable and performant enough to use for anything with a lot of traffic. When I worked at CNN.com, we used Solaris-based UNIX boxes for web servers. Our main competitor, MSNBC.com, used Windows. Whenever a big news story would hit, their site would buckle under the load, but ours would always keep on trucking along, pushing out as much as 250,000 hits/sec.

Windows is fine for the desktop. It's just not a good idea for a server, ever.
Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Seems to do fine here under stress loading. We have a 2x64 proc 1.0GHz server boxes here running Windows 2000 datacenter server and those two boxes alone can serve around 100,000 hits without a hitch.

God, FUD, whether for/against any operating system annoys me to no end.

Other than that, have you ever worked with the more "advanced" versions of Windows, or are you just repeating FUD you heard?
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
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utidjian
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Apr 25, 2003, 05:43 AM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
I was posting under the assumption that the MP3's were staying on the Mac. If he's going to transfer them to the Linux machine to share, that's a different story.
On the other hand... I made no assumptions... I just read his original question. Not sure how you got to your assumption.

It is actually becoming a very common thing to install a Linux server on some PC that is no longer capable of running the latest Windows software at acceptable speed. For serving to Windows and Macs (and of course Linux/Unix) it is very well suited to the task. I see these little servers more and more in peoples homes, small businesses, and larger companies. Even though the people running them have no intention of using them as a desktop.
-DU-...etc...
     
Arkham_c
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Apr 25, 2003, 01:49 PM
 
I don't want to get into a flame war about Windows versus UNIX. There's no way you're going to change my mind, and based on your comments, I suspect the opposite is also true.

I will say that I have worked at several very large (10 billion+ in annual revenue) companies, and have written software to interact with dozens more. In every case, my personal experience has been that the servers of companies with Windows servers and Windows databases are several orders of magnitude slower than those with UNIX servers.

It could be that the UNIX engineers were just better than the Windows engineers in every case, and that all of the Windows systems were misconfigured or insufficient, but I doubt that.

You can discount the security issue, but you know I'm right on that one. Microsoft has the worst track record in the industry on security.

My most recent application processes over $100,000/hour in transations for my employer. One of the vendors it talks to uses Windows for its servers. That vendor takes 10x as long to export their data from their database as the UNIX or VMS vendors.

Almost every company I have worked for has standardized on Exchange/Outlook for email, but none of them use Windows for anything else.
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Rainy Day
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Apr 25, 2003, 01:54 PM
 
Welcome to real world. People *gasp* actually use Windows. Not just consumers either, but *gasp* businesses. Lots of businesses.
Yeah, and lots of people drive Chevrolets too. Doesn't make them the best cars (nor even good ones, for that matter).

Windows based servers are notoriously unreliable. Their code has a reputation of being poorly written, leading to instability and to security vulnerabilities. Most (about 99%) of the attacks recorded in my server logs are Windows-only exploits.

In my opinion, MS's infamous reputation is deserved and only a fool (or a newbie) would hang a Windows based server on the InterNet. Any seasoned, objective, knowledgeable system administrator would simply know better. YMMV, but i agree with every word Arkham_c has posted in this thread about Windows servers.

But i wouldn't hold Linux up as a shining example of UNIX based servers. It's sort of the Chevy of the UNIX world. Lots of folks drive it down the UNIX highway, however that doesn't make it the best. For security - for a server - BSD is probably a better choice overall, and OpenBSD is probably the most secure of the lot.
     
itai195
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Apr 25, 2003, 02:09 PM
 
Boy has this thread gotten off topic. The original poster didn't ask about Windows at all. He certainly isn't talking about running an enterprise-class server. Pretty much any OS is capable of sharing files on a home network, even Win98. If he wants to gain some experience with Linux, then that's fine, but in general Linux is not necessary for the task.

But to throw in my 2 cents. Both Unix and Windows have a place. I certainly wouldn't use a Windows server to host my mission critical applications, but for internal mail/file/printer/database/application servers Windows is just fine. I've worked at plenty of places that use Windows servers successfully... the important thing is that you just can't use them for everything. Same goes for UNIX, using UNIX just to do some file sharing or run an intranet web server is a huge waste, running a Windows server will most likely be just as reliable and a lot easier to set up/maintain. The successful administrator is comfortable with a hybrid environment with both Windows and UNIX. You can't just discount Windows' role as a server, Microsoft has been gaining marketshare in servers for some time.

To tell you the truth though, the one thing I wish Windows wasn't used for is outlook/exchange. Those are horrible products, and they're only used because "they're what everyone else uses."
     
Metzen
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Apr 25, 2003, 04:10 PM
 
Originally posted by utidjian:
On the other hand... I made no assumptions... I just read his original question. Not sure how you got to your assumption.
I want to setup a server to share my MP3's over my home network. Could Linux do this (or Unix)? How do I get around the fact that all of my MP3's are on my Mac, can Linux or Unix read a Mac formatted hard drive?
He never stated that they should be transferred over to his MP3 serving box. I was working on the same sort of problem with MP3's being scattered across 5 different computers, with no central station taking on the task of "MP3" serving. So I came up with a solution that does sharing of the files via the DFS system mentioned above.

For some reason, I thought he wanted this complex approach (odds are I still have this system on the brain).

Oh well...

Originally posted by Rainy Day
In my opinion, MS's infamous reputation is deserved and only a fool (or a newbie) would hang a Windows based server on the InterNet. Any seasoned, objective, knowledgeable system administrator would simply know better. YMMV, but i agree with every word Arkham_c has posted in this thread about Windows servers.
Really, the only reputation Microsoft has allotted themselves is that IIS is full of holes, Windows itself is pretty secure.

To alleviate this though, one could run Apache or any number of other web servers out there on the Windows platform.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
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stew
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Apr 25, 2003, 08:17 PM
 
Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Use BeOS on that beast. With SoundPlay, you can stream to anyone, anywhere, with very little effort.
I can second that.
Setting up a BeOS box is a breeze - faster and easier than Windows, and definately less fiddling than with most Linux distros.

Look for "Be in your stereo" - that might be what you're looking for.


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BkueKanoodle
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Apr 27, 2003, 12:20 AM
 
Originally posted by Arkham_c:
Linux can do this perfectly. Just set it up with SAMBA for Windows sharing and AFP for Mac sharing. You can mount the Linux drive over the network to Macs and PCs very easily.

Don't use Windows. Windows is always a poor choice for any kind of server, and you will kick yourself if you ever deployed Windows for a company the first time a virus hits you. UNIX is the only secure server solution (I consider Linux to be UNIX in the same way that BSD or MacOSX are UNIX).
What a joke, Unix is not secure unless run by an experience admin. Unix and linux both are full of exploits and vulnerable to virus's. Windows, Unix, and Mac OS all have their disadvantages and to pretend other wise is just proof that your are definitly a L77T L1NUX D00D.

A real network engineer would know this.

PS It is my understanding that the original poster was talking about his home netwrok. For ease of use, Windows would get him up and running the quickest. If he wants to play around with linux and hassle with the configuration files just for the sake of it, then he should do that. Or better yet, setup up a dual boot, and do it both ways.

That's where he'll get the most experience and fun
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pimephalis
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Apr 27, 2003, 09:58 AM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
I was posting under the assumption that the MP3's were staying on the Mac. If he's going to transfer them to the Linux machine to share, that's a different story.



Mandrake, it's the easiest one.

Simplest form of advice, if your really gun ho about Linux, start with Mandrake. It was made with user simplicity in mind, and once your comfortable with it, if you feel the need to, you can move on up to more industrial strength distributions.

If your familiar with Windows though and are looking for a quick and dirty approach, that's what I'd choose. Setting up Linux will take some time and patience but in the end it could be all worth it

Using Linux will have two advantages for the poster, however. First, he will have the chance to learn about an O/S he probably doesn't know very well and one which is being used extensively in the corporate world (and by this I mean *NIX; linux is just a bit easier to get flying on a home box).

I would heartily second the Mandrake suggestion. The latest incarnations are very good at recognizing your hardware and doing a lot of the basic configuration for you. Here's what he'll want to do:

1. Install Mandrake
2. Create user accounts for everyone wanting to use the machine (for music, backups, whatever).
3. Determine what the machine will be used for: if it's only a server, then turn on Samba and AFP, and shut everything else off.
4. Close the ports. Close everything except the ports that you absolutely need. This way he won't have any security problems later on (however, if he's behind a router this exercise is must less important.


A final point no one has mentioned in this nice little MS/Linux/Unix flamewar: the cost. He's talking about repurposing an old little machine. Why shell out for win 2000 when he can download and burn the Mandrake ISO for about 30 cents?

Swimming upstream since 1994.
     
Rainy Day
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Apr 27, 2003, 11:49 AM
 
What a joke, Unix is not secure unless run by an experience admin.
Ever hear of OpenBSD? With only one hole in the default install in over 7 years, i'd have to say it doesn't take an experienced admin to get a secure UNIX box.

Linux, in general, is probably the least secure of the UNIX-like OS's. It does take an experienced admin to harden it. Linux truly deserves its "UNIX-like" designation (IMO); BSD's, in general, except for a trademark distinction, are UNIX. It is unwise to make statements about UNIX based on Linux. Sort of like judging Coke based on the taste of Pepsi, or vice versa.

Admittedly, however, an inexperienced admin can screw up any secure box (running any OS).

Unix and linux both are full of exploits and vulnerable to virus's.
Yes, but there are so many more for Windows.
     
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Apr 27, 2003, 11:38 PM
 
I do the reverse. I have a Linux machine connected to my TV and stereo that plays music on my mac.

Either way to can network them via SAMBA (this is what I do), NFS, or Appletalk very easily.

I have used all three and like NFS the most, but have no complaints about SAMBA (allows me to also pick suff of my pos win mahcine).

If you want minimal install download Mandrake Linuk. I kid you not, you will be up running and networked in 20 min (yes from no os to totaly up and running). It has a very fast and super simple installer.
     
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Apr 27, 2003, 11:41 PM
 
On the other hand if you really want to learn how stuff works i highly, highly recomend FreeBSD. It has an excelent (but text based) installer, and fully manual configuration.

The documentation is contained in one place. Its by far the best documented free unix (its more ture unix than anything else really) os and most robust.
     
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Apr 29, 2003, 01:13 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
Unless your doing this because your taking a UNIX networking course, use Windows 2000 Server. You can setup a DFS (Distributed File System) which will map different files from different locations to appear as if they are on one share, on one computer.
Oh yeah, he really wants to shell out $900 for a home project. Of course he could just steal it - I am sure plenty of people here would recommend that.
     
absmiths
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Apr 29, 2003, 01:17 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
Uhhh... I don't think he said he's using it for business use...

And properly secured, Windows is fine for a server.
As long as you apply the security patches that are released every week (I got 3 today)!

Face it, Microsoft is terrible at securing their products (remember the SQL Server virus that took the internet offline several months back?), and how many new Outlook viruses (we won't even mention "Please take over my machine" IIS) get discovered every day?
     
absmiths
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Apr 29, 2003, 01:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Metzen:
Sheesh. And a "network engineer"? I should hope that a network engineer doesn't have to worry about what operating systems are running on what computers, just that you have configured the network equipment properly and can respond to changes in the network if needed quickly. Network engineers should not be worried about what software runs on their network, only that they are full filling the requirements of said network.
That's not true in my experience. Network engineers have to be concerned about the vulnerability of the nodes they place on the network since security is usually attributed to them. Every business I have worked in has viewed Windows as insecure but acceptable, the Mac as insecure but unacceptable (including OS X), Linux as secure but a hackers gateway to the network, and other unices as secure.

I think most of it is driven by prejudice and fear of the unkown (not to mention so many MC**'s who want to protect their training and not have to learn anything new).
     
PHoynak  (op)
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Apr 29, 2003, 01:42 PM
 
Now with iTunes 4 Apple took care or this for my Macs...the PC is another story.
     
dice
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May 1, 2003, 12:54 PM
 
I vote for using linux cos it is free and if you use Windows you will have to pay for it (or erm obtain it somehow)


linux
     
bzImage
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May 1, 2003, 01:59 PM
 
Originally posted by PHoynak:
What do I need to look for when getting a linux distro?
dont bother about wich one its better, in some way all are the same, just install anyone you have and enjoy.

Unix its simple, but sometimes it takes a genious to understand the simplicity -- Dennis Ritchie.
     
Metzen
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May 6, 2003, 06:17 PM
 
Originally posted by absmiths:
As long as you apply the security patches that are released every week (I got 3 today)!

Face it, Microsoft is terrible at securing their products (remember the SQL Server virus that took the internet offline several months back?), and how many new Outlook viruses (we won't even mention "Please take over my machine" IIS) get discovered every day?
The internet eh? That's a little over exagerrated...

And "properly secured" should mean something to you. I can have no patches installed on a fresh Win2k Server install running IIS and no one will be able to hack me. How is that possible? Variety of ways, the best one being turn on IIS, make a website, turn off IIS's executable programs feature, block all ports but 80.

Have fun.
( Last edited by Metzen; May 6, 2003 at 06:23 PM. )
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Metzen
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May 6, 2003, 06:20 PM
 
Originally posted by absmiths:
Oh yeah, he really wants to shell out $900 for a home project. Of course he could just steal it - I am sure plenty of people here would recommend that.
Nothing like an evaluation version when you need it.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
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