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Non-Paying Mac Customers (Page 2)
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spacefreak
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Jan 29, 2004, 01:30 AM
 
Originally posted by iDriveX:
Not really, think about it, if you were filthy rich, didn't like computers, didn't know how to use computers, would you do your own software installations?
Maybe not, but I probably wouldn't be using Final Cut Pro, Dreamweaver, and Quark.
     
jonasmac
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Jan 29, 2004, 01:30 AM
 
iDriveX,

Your business ethics are in question too. Better hope none of your other clients hear about this little fiasco. There's no better way to advertise than word of mouth. And word travels fast. Once you lose the trust of the customer, it's pretty tough to regain.

I definitely wouldn't hire you to do any type of work on anything. And if I were you, I'd seriously rethink the way you handle clients. Even the deadbeat ones.
     
MindFad
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Jan 29, 2004, 01:37 AM
 
I am amazed that someone is so god damned retarded that they paid someone $75/hour to put DVDs and CDs into their drives and hit an "install" button. Hot damn. Sign me up. I'd have to say, messing with his computer like that is pretty lame, though. I wouldn't think that was legal tampering any way you cut it.

I also want to have Diller's babies.
     
dillerX
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Jan 29, 2004, 01:57 AM
 
Originally posted by MindFad:
I also want to have Diller's babies.
u know where to find me.
I tried to sig-spam the forums.
ADVANTAGE Motorsports Marketing, Inc. ‚ÄĘ speedXdesign, Inc.
     
MindFad
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Jan 29, 2004, 02:07 AM
 
Originally posted by dillerX:
u know where to find me.
o rly?
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jan 29, 2004, 09:58 AM
 
I do something similar to what iDriveX does (but I only charge $25 an hour for basic stuff and I'm thinking of upping that price now).

The people I deal with are well off, but generally don't want to spend hours of their day (valuable hours mind you) doing something that only needs to be redone the correct way a few weeks later, or is a one shot deal. It also isn't like I only install software. They ask me general questions and usually have a list with them. Standard questions are "I'm having problems downloading my images to my computer" (so I pick up a CF card reader for them at cost), "How do I burn a CD", I can't find XYZ. etc. etc. These people only know how to email, surf and write papers. Anything more is rather taxing.

They like it because for $300, not only do they have someone install the application (someone that knows what they are doing) I do the simple things like place a shortcut in the dock, clean up any files, and show them how to use the application for general tasks. You will never know the joy of showing someone that you can drag a file to Mail.app and it will be included as an attachment The same goes for Photoshop etc.

The flip side of this is... some wealthy people purchase an application, install it incorrectly (which is hard, but they figure out how to do it) and never use it because [A] They can't find it or [B]they don't know what it does.

The thing I've been doing as of late is encoding peoples music. Basically iTunes does most of the work, but I go and grab the album artwork etc. I do this all at home and deliver a few CDs with all the music on it. I load it up and will even connect the computer to their stereo (with cables included)

People love this, and it's great for dinner parties.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jan 29, 2004, 10:04 AM
 
Originally posted by MindFad:
I am amazed that someone is so god damned retarded that they paid someone $75/hour to put DVDs and CDs into their drives and hit an "install" button. Hot damn. Sign me up. I'd have to say, messing with his computer like that is pretty lame, though. I wouldn't think that was legal tampering any way you cut it.

I also want to have Diller's babies.
I'm sure that's what the wealthy say about us...

"I am amazed that someone is so god damned retarded that they sit in front of their computer for hours on end, reading forums and arguing with complete strangers for free"

The people I deal with are smart enough to get someone that knows what they are doing. The only option is either pay me $35 - $75 per hour, or call an agency that would charge them $100 an hour (with a three hour minimum). You can either get someone that is a friend do it or have a complete stranger hanging out at your house.

I would rather have a friend.
     
jyvin563
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Jan 29, 2004, 10:09 AM
 
Originally posted by ghost_flash:
I'm with him too, up to the point where he
became a real **** and did the wrong thing.

Customers that stiff are reall ****ers.
He should raise his rates, and I hope he gets
it, but he missed an opportunity to give this
guy a freebie! and then raise his rates and
get it up front next time. You screwed the
pooch on this one dude.

There are personal trainers making 1400/hr
in California.

I can't read any more of your moral propaganda. Do you live in America? How long have you lived in a capitalistic environment? Examples of why he did the right thing...

1. When you buy a house and you don't make the payments, what happens? They take your house!

2. When you buy a car and you don't make the payments, what happens? They take your car!

3. When I worked installing phone systems and someone didn't pay for it after a reasonable amount of time, we went and uninstalled the entire thing.

4. When I was in high school I worked construction during the summers. When we were building houses or doing miscellaneous work for people and they didn't pay, after a reasonable amount of time, we would undo any work we did. I mean, took down the framing on a house, etc.

So did he do the wrong thing by uninstalling the programs, absolutely not. When you donít pay, you canít play. Everyone that is giving him crap, wake up and understand that business is not nice.
"While modern technology has given people powerful new communication tools, it apparently can do nothing to alter the fact that many people have nothing useful to say."

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Millennium
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Jan 29, 2004, 10:15 AM
 
Although the story is funny, and he certainly deserved what he got, this still looks like a pretty serious ethics breach on your part. Definitely not the way I'd have gone, if only because you open yourself up to a whole bunch of severe legal nastiness.

This is the sort of thing where a collections agency can come in handy. Usually when those guys come calling, people will pay.
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typoon
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Jan 29, 2004, 10:21 AM
 
same here I do Mac Stuff and Well unfortunately PC stuff to. Also setup networks and stuff here in the NJ,NY,PA area. I know how you feel. I've never had anyone stiff me yet. I charge 80 an hour. I work pretty much the same way. Word of mouth and after my regualr job.

Sorry to hear your plight. I might be concerned though about if he might take legal action against you if he found out you did that to his machine. But he does owe you money so Anything is fair in my book. If you have repeately called him and sent him a bill and it's been several months then I think what you did was fair game. I then would tell him that you WILL come to his house to re-install or fix his computer again only IF he has your money he owes you. That is how I would handle it.
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iWrite
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Jan 29, 2004, 10:27 AM
 
I then called him and told him that Apple had issued a Security Update and that a lot of people were having a hard time getting it to show up in their software updater so I put it on my webpage for easy access and that he should update his OS immediately. The guy downloaded the installer and installed it, and now no programs on his computer, short of the programs that are installed with the OS will open. He tried calling me back but I've decided to let him suffer for a bit. He can reinstall his own software.
You'd better hope like h*ll that he doesn't call Apple asking for help.

If he does and they help him sort this out -- and they WILL help him sort this out -- you're in a heap of trouble if they figure out (and it's not going to be hard especially if he has your .Mac site page/address) what you did.

Because what you did IS illegal.

The fact that he's not calling you back may, in fact, mean that he got help from Apple directly.

Also, he may have been told that his hardware is under Apple warranty UNLESS they decide to invalidate his warranty because you worked on his system...are you Apple certified?

If his warranty is invalidated, you've tampered with Apple software, you've misled and defrauded him using an Apple site, I'd say you've got some potentially serious legal issues.

One word of advice?

ASK FOR PAYMENT UP FRONT NEXT TIME.

(Also, watch your back because Apple may come a knockin' -- and trust me, a friend of mine by the name of Robin in executive relations -- DOES deal with this type of thing routinely.)

Good luck -- seriously.
     
ryju
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Jan 29, 2004, 10:50 AM
 
Wow that's scary. I'm not joking either!
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jan 29, 2004, 12:28 PM
 
Originally posted by jyvin563:
I can't read any more of your moral propaganda. Do you live in America? How long have you lived in a capitalistic environment? Examples of why he did the right thing...

1. When you buy a house and you don't make the payments, what happens? They take your house!

2. When you buy a car and you don't make the payments, what happens? They take your car!

3. When I worked installing phone systems and someone didn't pay for it after a reasonable amount of time, we went and uninstalled the entire thing.

4. When I was in high school I worked construction during the summers. When we were building houses or doing miscellaneous work for people and they didn't pay, after a reasonable amount of time, we would undo any work we did. I mean, took down the framing on a house, etc.

So did he do the wrong thing by uninstalling the programs, absolutely not. When you donít pay, you canít play. Everyone that is giving him crap, wake up and understand that business is not nice.
My rebuttal to that and your "capitalist" view...

Is there a difference between a person that unintentionally hits a person with a car and one that purposely hits a person with a car?

1. When you buy a house, the bank tells you that if you don't pay, they will take back the house.

2. When you buy a car, the bank tells you that if you don't pay, they will take back the house.

3. When you were installing the phones, you probably had a contract that stipulated that you would take out the phones if there wasn't a payment.

4. Your forth example is strange... but again, you probably had some kind of a contract or something. Then again, my brother works construction and says that some shady crap goes down on a regular basis.

Yes. It's called intent.

Having someone come over to your house to install software with the intent to pay them, and then not having the funds is much different then having someone come over to install software with the intent to never pay them.

There are LEGAL ways in which the person should have acted when collecting money. If I'm late on a college loan payment, it doesn't give the bank to right to come over and slash the tires of my car. In fact, they can't even harass me... Because those things are ILLEGAL

The way I see it, a person owed another person some money, so the other person maliciously mislead a customer to install a Trojan horse in his computer to damage applications.

I'M NOT TRYING TO DEFEND THE DEADBEAT RICH GUY HERE but what iDriveX did was illegal.
     
waxcrash
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Jan 29, 2004, 12:46 PM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I'M NOT TRYING TO DEFEND THE DEADBEAT RICH GUY HERE but what iDriveX did was illegal.
I vote that we beat some sense into iDriveX with a rubber hose.

     
wdlove
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Jan 29, 2004, 12:56 PM
 
I wish you well iDriveX!

"Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense." Winston Churchill
     
iWrite
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Jan 29, 2004, 01:43 PM
 
I'm all for the little guy getting ahead and making money when and where possible.

But, what iDriveX did is blatantly illegal, I agree.

Besides, I've found that being persistently nice and persistently insistent usually garners more positive results than manipulation, coercion, fraud, and illegal tactics.
     
CMYKid
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Jan 29, 2004, 02:08 PM
 
...damn, i'd TOTALLY forgotten that this WAS the guy who tried to pull that crappy-ass iBook paint job scam on here...

anyway, as funny as the story is (if it's true) it'd be even funnier if the guy reads the fora. It's a small Mac community, eh?

as for not living at home, we're proud of you...but now you've REALLY got no excuse for that bedspread...
     
Eriamjh
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Jan 29, 2004, 09:25 PM
 
Hah! Just tell him that since he didn't pay you, the software basically expired (nothing to do with the security update).

Or just tell him you can't come back out to fix it until you're paid.

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Myrkridia
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Jan 29, 2004, 09:37 PM
 
Originally posted by ghost_flash:
You sure know how to win friends don't you?
Raise your rates to $120/hour, I could care less.

If you get it, then that is cool, but don't go
screwing with people's computers when you
don't get paid. That's not cool, and that is
my only problem, because that is not how
'business is done'.




I have to say I'm with ghost on this one.

The point here isn't whether or not you "rip people off."
You provide a service that people want, at a price that they find reasonable. The reason for all the animosity is that people in these forums know exactly what goes into installing apps on a Mac, and know that if these people would get just a little bit of common sense, they'd realize just how much you're taking them for.

However, I find that your level of professionalism is somewhere in the range of zero to none. The guy you were doing service for agreed to pay you and didn't.. anybody else would have filed it in small claims court, or gotten some form of legal help, but you decided to trick him into downloading a program that swapped out files to render his collection of software useless. I don't care what the finer points are in the realm of viruses, worms, trojans, etc. but society in a large sense is really computer stupid, and any kind of malicious attack against a computer is considered most of the time as a virus.
Not only that, but Driven, you yourself said that your business runs pretty much on word of mouth, so if this rich guy tells all his rich pals that the guy he didn't pay f*cked with his computer so none of the apps worked, I wouldn't be surprised if they labelled you a hacker. And once people find out that you can do malicious things to comps and have done them in the past, no one will want you within 10ft of their computer, much less close enough to do work on it.
     
Beewee
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Jan 29, 2004, 09:51 PM
 
This is a very interesting thread from an ethical stand-point.

I do agree that you did get screwed over and I have a suspiscion that the guy wasn't going to pay you from the start. (FCP, Dreamweaver, Office, and "I don't have the money to pay you for 3 months?!" Get real.)

But I also think that you are grossly over-charging people for your service. Is you time worth money? Yes. But there is a difference between charging people a fair price for a service and taking advantage of their ignorance, and stupidity.

$75 per/hr is great but I would probably charge $35-50 per/hr.
But that's me...

Wrecking the files on the guys comp was totally crossing the line.
He didn't pay you, fine but that doesn't give you the right to vandalize a person's property to get some kind of satisfaction.


In any kind of business it can take years to aquire a good reputation and a single instant to lose it.
     
UR-20
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Jan 29, 2004, 09:55 PM
 
Originally posted by jyvin563:
I can't read any more of your moral propaganda. Do you live in America? How long have you lived in a capitalistic environment? Examples of why he did the right thing...

1. When you buy a house and you don't make the payments, what happens? They take your house!

2. When you buy a car and you don't make the payments, what happens? They take your car!

3. When I worked installing phone systems and someone didn't pay for it after a reasonable amount of time, we went and uninstalled the entire thing.

4. When I was in high school I worked construction during the summers. When we were building houses or doing miscellaneous work for people and they didn't pay, after a reasonable amount of time, we would undo any work we did. I mean, took down the framing on a house, etc.


Bottom line, all those reasons you gave were LEGAL

All Driven did was trick the idiot into downloading and installing basically a trojan. If he had gone through the proper LEGAL
channels then he probably wouldn't be getting any flack from people here. But, by your logic, if someone needs an addition made to their house let's say a new bathroom. So I build it onto their house, put in flooring, fixtures, etc. They say "Can you bill me" I say "Fine" time passes, 20+ phone calls unreturned, and I'm pissed. So I sneak up to their house late at night with a can of gasoline, and I do a controlled burn that completely destroys their new bathroom, but it didn't affect the rest of the house so, hey I guess it was completely justified, and I shouldn't expect the cops to come by and pick me up for arson.



"Should have paid me!"
     
J. Christ
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Jan 29, 2004, 09:57 PM
 
I wouldn't have typed "should have paid me" on the inside of it. That just tells the person who is reponsible for it. It would have been better to make it act like a random fluke. Then he would have to crawl back to you to fix the problem. You tell him you won't do it unless you get paid or he can just take it in to a service place.

Though I still think what you did was completely unethical, wrong, and immature.

I doubt he will come back to you for help with his comp...or any of his friends and family.
And Dad said, "Let there be light." And BOOM! Freaking illumination city!
     
el chupacabra
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Jan 29, 2004, 11:04 PM
 
so anyway idrive, has anything happened with the guy? have you worked anything out?

ghost Flash

Not to say I completely disagree with you about the ethical thing...but when those little 14 year old hacker wannabies in irc and yahoo chat rooms try to convince people to delete vital system files so they can get a laugh, can they be held responsible? Or those hack hotmail sites that trick people into emailing out their passwords to [email protected] or something. My guess would be no as it is still the person's fault that they were fooled over the internet by some kid in a chat room. I would consider idrive's point of view a little more. The guy may have trusted him and thats why he installed the security update, but at the same time he was trusted to pay for a service and didn't. 2 wrongs dont make a right but you get the point. I don't feel sorry for the guy since he ripped idrivex off.

if it had destroyed any real data like the works created with fcp that would be a different story but all the guy has to do is reinstall.

edit: personally I haven't had good experiences with collection agencies or small claims court. Collectors never collect and small claims leaves it up to you to collect once they rule in your favor. Has anyone else had different luck?
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jyvin563
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Jan 30, 2004, 09:56 AM
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by UR-20:


Bottom line, all those reasons you gave were LEGAL

All Driven did was trick the idiot into downloading and installing basically a trojan. If he had gone through the proper LEGAL
channels then he probably wouldn't be getting any flack from people here. But, by your logic, if someone needs an addition made to their house let's say a new bathroom. So I build it onto their house, put in flooring, fixtures, etc. They say "Can you bill me" I say "Fine" time passes, 20+ phone calls unreturned, and I'm pissed. So I sneak up to their house late at night with a can of gasoline, and I do a controlled burn that completely destroys their new bathroom, but it didn't affect the rest of the house so, hey I guess it was completely justified, and I shouldn't expect the cops to come by and pick me up for arson.

[QUOTE]

The point I was trying to make was that is business. What the guy did by not paying was illegal as well. Sometimes you must fight fire, with fire, no pun intended. Business can be dirty, sneaky, and sometime illegal. Most of the examples I gave were legal, which was bad form on my part. This whole debate is not about legality, but about the moral implications. Does that make since?

Also, your example is very much off base. I want you to think about the consequences or punishments, handed down by a judge, for burning a bathroom (or house as your picture illustrates), to uninstalling computer software with a trojan horse that the owner still has the CDs to. I understand what you were trying to do by using your example; however you put a far-fetched spin on it that is incorrect.

Here is how it worked when I was framing houses. When we started we would only build so much without a payment from the owner. We would give necessary time for payment but no where in the contract did it state we would undo what we did. In some cases though we would do just that. We would pull the nails, stack the wood, and walk away. What is the owner of the house going to say? Well I didn't pay them your Honor, but they had no right to take apart my house?
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jyvin563
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Jan 30, 2004, 10:07 AM
 
One more thing, why does it matter what he charged for the services? Market demand dictates the prices of any given product or price at any given time. This is basic economics. If people are willing to pay it then the price CAN NOT be in question. I thought this is how price/demand worked? Can anyone explain?
"While modern technology has given people powerful new communication tools, it apparently can do nothing to alter the fact that many people have nothing useful to say."

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iWrite
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Jan 30, 2004, 10:20 AM
 
Just to clarify...

I'm ALL for people charging AS MUCH PER HOUR as they want...

That's the beauty of this country, you know? Seriously! I think $70 an hour is a fair price.

You're driving to THEIR house in YOUR car and working on THEIR computer from the comfort of their home.

Where I live, Palm Beach, people could care less about giving someone $70 an hour for tutorials or computing help, etc.

I loaned someone $50K to open a business here (a computer consulting firm) and you would NOT believe the amounts of money that people will shell out to people for "at home consultations." I believe he charges $69 an hour for the first hour and $49 an hour after that. To be honest, I was sure my money was gone. But, two years later and my money has been paid back -- with interest. I listen to the stories and to be honest, I'm really shocked by what I hear.

My problem with this entire scenario is that exactly what Myrkridia said:

However, I find that your level of professionalism is somewhere in the range of zero to none. The guy you were doing service for agreed to pay you and didn't.. anybody else would have filed it in small claims court, or gotten some form of legal help...
My friend (whom I loaned the $$$ to) sits down as soon as he arrives at the person's house with an invoice and writes out the client's information and on the form/invoice it says, "Method of Payment:" He asks them before any work is done -- under the preface of invoicing them -- "How will you be paying?"

That way the person cannot say, at the end of the work, "Uh, dude, I can't pay you right now...can I work something out?"

THAT is the way to do business -- professionally.
     
typoon
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Jan 30, 2004, 10:33 AM
 
You could also take this guy to small claims court. If you have records showing that you did the work and kept a record of the pone calls and such and if he still hasn't paid you there is almost NO WAY that you won't get your money after you take him to small claims court. Though for I think you said 300 it might not be worth it.
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mitchell_pgh
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Jan 30, 2004, 10:54 AM
 
Originally posted by typoon:
You could also take this guy to small claims court. If you have records showing that you did the work and kept a record of the pone calls and such and if he still hasn't paid you there is almost NO WAY that you won't get your money after you take him to small claims court. Though for I think you said 300 it might not be worth it.
What you should say is "You could have taken him to small claims court"

Basically he just threw $300 down the drain in my opinion. If he would have billed him, and offered additional computer help (to guilt him in to paying) or to set up a payment plan Rich people >> HATE << being asked this! then not only may you have had another long term customer, but you could have retrieved your money.

I think you need to look beyond the $300 and think about the fact that you now have lost a customer (granted, a somewhat bad customer) and the word of mouth that he gives and have introduced a person that may spread the word of your little activities to others.

From a MacNN forum standpoint, I think it's funny that you did this, but from a business standpoint, it's a nightmare.
     
Beewee
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Jan 30, 2004, 11:47 AM
 
Originally posted by jyvin563:
If people are willing to pay it then the price CAN NOT be in question.
Obviously this particular guy wasn't willing to pay...so the price is an issue.
     
Beewee
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Jan 30, 2004, 11:56 AM
 
Originally posted by jyvin563:

Also, your example is very much off base. I want you to think about the consequences or punishments, handed down by a judge, for burning a bathroom (or house as your picture illustrates), to uninstalling computer software with a trojan horse that the owner still has the CDs to. I understand what you were trying to do by using your example; however you put a far-fetched spin on it that is incorrect.

We would give necessary time for payment but no where in the contract did it state we would undo what we did. In some cases though we would do just that. We would pull the nails, stack the wood, and walk away. What is the owner of the house going to say? Well I didn't pay them your Honor, but they had no right to take apart my house?
I can see your point, but how did you get into the person's house to undo the "job" you had done? I can't see the owner allowing you into his/her home willingly. If that's the case you were breaking and entering which is a crime. Also idrive didn't go over to the guys house and undo the job he just sabatoged the files. It would be no different then laying a floor for someone, they don't pay so you go to their house with a sludge hammer and smash big holes in the floor.

Did you uninstall it? Not really. But you did make it impossible for them to enjoy the floor that you put in.
     
jyvin563
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Jan 30, 2004, 12:11 PM
 
Originally posted by Beewee:
Obviously this particular guy wasn't willing to pay...so the price is an issue.
How can you assume price was the issue?
"While modern technology has given people powerful new communication tools, it apparently can do nothing to alter the fact that many people have nothing useful to say."

Leo Gomes
     
jyvin563
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Jan 30, 2004, 12:19 PM
 
Originally posted by Beewee:
I can see your point, but how did you get into the person's house to undo the "job" you had done? I can't see the owner allowing you into his/her home willingly. If that's the case you were breaking and entering which is a crime. Also idrive didn't go over to the guys house and undo the job he just sabatoged the files. It would be no different then laying a floor for someone, they don't pay so you go to their house with a sludge hammer and smash big holes in the floor.

Did you uninstall it? Not really. But you did make it impossible for them to enjoy the floor that you put in.
Why are you spinning my example into something extreme to prove your point? It is different. We simply disassembled the framing of a house we assembled days earlier because we did not get paid. iDrive uninstalled software he installed because he did not get paid. The way he uninstalled the software could possibly in question, but the act itself seemed fair to me.
"While modern technology has given people powerful new communication tools, it apparently can do nothing to alter the fact that many people have nothing useful to say."

Leo Gomes
     
Sherwin
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Jan 30, 2004, 12:25 PM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
offered to set up a payment plan - Rich people >> HATE << being asked this!
Only the stupid ones. The clever rich people quite like payment plans as it allows them to keep the wad in their high-interest account and continue earning off it.
     
-Q-
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Jan 30, 2004, 12:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Beewee:
But I also think that you are grossly over-charging people for your service. Is you time worth money? Yes. But there is a difference between charging people a fair price for a service and taking advantage of their ignorance, and stupidity.

$75 per/hr is great but I would probably charge $35-50 per/hr.
But that's me...
I disagree. If people felt they were being taken advantage of, the wouldn't contract for the service. If I feel someone is overcharging me, I don't use them for the service. It's not like the guy had no choice in the matter. Free marketing economy - iDriveX is free to charge as much as he wants for his service, the client is free to choose to do business with someone else.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Jan 30, 2004, 01:00 PM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
Only the stupid ones. The clever rich people quite like payment plans as it allows them to keep the wad in their high-interest account and continue earning off it.
They aren't going to make all that much off of a few hundred sitting in the bank or in stocks etc. My point was to insinuate that they can't afford $300. That usually provokes some reaction. (positive or negative)

If we were talking about thousands of dollars, they I would totally agree with you.
     
UR-20
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Jan 31, 2004, 01:19 AM
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jyvin563:

The point I was trying to make was that is business. What the guy did by not paying was illegal as well. Sometimes you must fight fire, with fire, no pun intended. Business can be dirty, sneaky, and sometime illegal. Most of the examples I gave were legal, which was bad form on my part. This whole debate is not about legality, but about the moral implications. Does that make since?

Also, your example is very much off base. I want you to think about the consequences or punishments, handed down by a judge, for burning a bathroom (or house as your picture illustrates), to uninstalling computer software with a trojan horse that the owner still has the CDs to. I understand what you were trying to do by using your example; however you put a far-fetched spin on it that is incorrect.
[QUOTE]


I know for a fact that this is about the ethical implications of what Idrive did. But I won't just chalk it up to "Business is an ugly ruthless thing DEAL WITH IT!"

I'll admit that business is sometimes unpleasant, but it usually doesn't have to be if one conducts his/her business in a professional manner. It was unprofessional for that guy to ignore payment, but it was also unprofessional to install a trojan to wreck his programs, when your customers pay $75 an hour to watch a progress bar fill up.
What Idrive did was childish at best. And to defend the whole "eye for an eye" stance is just barbaric. He could have solved it like an adult, but was too caught up in getting revenge. The guy screwed him out of money, so he wanted to screw him right back. He still doesn't have his money, and that guy now has enough evidence to give him bad word of mouth, or bring the police in on this.
I haven't had time to think about arson charges but I do know that "The penalty for a first time conviction of unleashing a virus on a computer system is $5000. Violators will spend up to 3 years in prison if the virus does more than $10,000 in damage."

And I'm quite sure a judge will see it that way regardless of what was done to promote such vigilantism.
     
Beewee
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Jan 31, 2004, 01:36 AM
 
Originally posted by -Q-:
I disagree. If people felt they were being taken advantage of, the wouldn't contract for the service. If I feel someone is overcharging me, I don't use them for the service. It's not like the guy had no choice in the matter. Free marketing economy - iDriveX is free to charge as much as he wants for his service, the client is free to choose to do business with someone else.
Of course he had the right to charge whatever he wants but I think it is totally over-charging.
My feeling is: The guy charges $75 per/hr to sit on his ass and watch a progress bar fill up.

But as I said before, "That's me..."
     
Beewee
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Jan 31, 2004, 01:56 AM
 
Originally posted by jyvin563:
Why are you spinning my example into something extreme to prove your point? It is different. We simply disassembled the framing of a house we assembled days earlier because we did not get paid. iDrive uninstalled software he installed because he did not get paid. The way he uninstalled the software could possibly in question, but the act itself seemed fair to me.
This situation itself is extreme. You have a guy that didn't pay so you undo the work you did. You rip out boards, remove fixtures whatever that is extreme. Same if you make a trojan and trick a client to download it and wreck parts of his computer.

I am not asking why you disabled it, I am wondering how you were able to do it. Simply doing work on a person's house doesn't entitled you to enter that house when ever you want. Regardless if they paid you or not it is still their house. Nor does installing software on a guy's computer entitled you to mess with it, or connect to it whenever you want just because you didn't get paid.
     
iWrite
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Jan 31, 2004, 07:39 AM
 
Where IS this guy, anyway? In jail yet?

Noticed he hasn't posted lately.



Anyway, who cares.

No, I wouldn't do what he did for a few reasons.

But, from the way I see it, the rich guy got "punk'd" that's all.

     
jyvin563
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Jan 31, 2004, 10:49 AM
 
I know for a fact that this is about the ethical implications of what Idrive did. But I won't just chalk it up to "Business is an ugly ruthless thing DEAL WITH IT!"

I'll admit that business is sometimes unpleasant, but it usually doesn't have to be if one conducts his/her business in a professional manner. It was unprofessional for that guy to ignore payment, but it was also unprofessional to install a trojan to wreck his programs, when your customers pay $75 an hour to watch a progress bar fill up.
What Idrive did was childish at best. And to defend the whole "eye for an eye" stance is just barbaric. He could have solved it like an adult, but was too caught up in getting revenge. The guy screwed him out of money, so he wanted to screw him right back. He still doesn't have his money, and that guy now has enough evidence to give him bad word of mouth, or bring the police in on this.
I haven't had time to think about arson charges but I do know that "The penalty for a first time conviction of unleashing a virus on a computer system is $5000. Violators will spend up to 3 years in prison if the virus does more than $10,000 in damage."

And I'm quite sure a judge will see it that way regardless of what was done to promote such vigilantism.
We can agree to disagree then. I think "eye for an eye" is ok in this situation. He didn't destroy the mans computer, but simply uninstalled programs he installed. However, there is no way a judge would pass down a verdict of $5000 in a case like this, let alone 3 years in prison. Regardless, this shows questions of ethical behavior are very much individually based.
"While modern technology has given people powerful new communication tools, it apparently can do nothing to alter the fact that many people have nothing useful to say."

Leo Gomes
     
Kleekoh
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Feb 3, 2004, 02:22 PM
 
iDriveX has been known to screw people over in the past, so he probably deserves it.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Feb 3, 2004, 02:26 PM
 
Originally posted by jyvin563:
[B]

We can agree to disagree then. I think "eye for an eye" is ok in this situation. He didn't destroy the mans computer, but simply uninstalled programs he installed. However, there is no way a judge would pass down a verdict of $5000 in a case like this, let alone 3 years in prison. Regardless, this shows questions of ethical behavior are very much individually based.
In the eyes of the law, not paying someone is usually dealt with by a slap on the wrist...

"hacking" a computer is viewed as "pure evil". Try telling an 80 year old judge that you were only trying to disable the applications you installed.
     
dav
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Feb 3, 2004, 03:16 PM
 
wonder if he pays taxes on that extra $1000/mo. he gets
one post closer to five stars
     
CMYKid
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Feb 3, 2004, 03:38 PM
 
Originally posted by Sherwin:
Only the stupid ones. The clever rich people quite like payment plans as it allows them to keep the wad in their high-interest account and continue earning off it.
um, hardly... show me a payment plan that costs less in interest than anyone is earning on a checking account these days...

intelligent "rich people" don't pay much if anything in interest.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Feb 3, 2004, 04:25 PM
 
Originally posted by jyvin563:
What the guy did by not paying was illegal as well. Sometimes you must fight fire, with fire, no pun intended. Business can be dirty, sneaky, and sometime illegal. Most of the examples I gave were legal, which was bad form on my part. This whole debate is not about legality, but about the moral implications. Does that make since?
Yep.

But that is exactly what I never get: iDriveX a plain and common crook for the Trojan. The moral and ethical implication of this is that he is a plain and common crook violating the client's private space.

If I kill somebody for killing somebody, I am still a murderer, with all the ethical implications.

Sure the guy might have deserved it, but that speaks against HIM, unrelated to what iDriveX may have to do with it.

Put another way:
If you did work for somebody and they didn't pay you, is it okay to rob them?

-s*
     
mitchell_pgh
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Feb 3, 2004, 04:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Yep.

But that is exactly what I never get: iDriveX a plain and common crook for the Trojan. The moral and ethical implication of this is that he is a plain and common crook violating the client's private space.

If I kill somebody for killing somebody, I am still a murderer, with all the ethical implications.

Sure the guy might have deserved it, but that speaks against HIM, unrelated to what iDriveX may have to do with it.

Put another way:
If you did work for somebody and they didn't pay you, is it okay to rob them?

-s*
Exactly...

I love the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" as it's SO true.

Now, not only has iDriveX forfeited any payment due to him, he has now broken the law.

People that say "An Eye for an Eye" are usually blind. I would simply continue sending bill after bill. Every month... After six months, make a special note that says that interest will start to be added at 15%. When it reaches $1000 or so, take him to court.
     
Kleekoh
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Feb 3, 2004, 04:56 PM
 
The real ironic part about this is, this guy is such a hypocrite. I did some website work for him just over a year ago, and he never paid me. Basically cut off communication wtih me when he decided he didn't need the site after it was almost complete.

I threatened him for my own personal entertainment, but really, there was nothing I could do to him that would make me feel satisfied without myself being arrested.
     
mitchell_pgh
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Feb 3, 2004, 05:36 PM
 
Originally posted by Kleekoh:
The real ironic part about this is, this guy is such a hypocrite. I did some website work for him just over a year ago, and he never paid me. Basically cut off communication wtih me when he decided he didn't need the site after it was almost complete.

I threatened him for my own personal entertainment, but really, there was nothing I could do to him that would make me feel satisfied without myself being arrested.
You can always take someone to small clames... or sick creditors on them.
     
hayesk
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Feb 3, 2004, 05:51 PM
 
Originally posted by CMYKid:
um, hardly... show me a payment plan that costs less in interest than anyone is earning on a checking account these days...

intelligent "rich people" don't pay much if anything in interest.
For a while I had money in an account earning 5% interest (ING Direct, although they only pay 2.5% now) while my car payments were only 4.6%. It'd be foolish to pay off the car sooner, even if I had the money.

But with rich people it's not in chequing accounts - they keep them in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. that earn more than the interest they pay on their debts.
     
CMYKid
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Feb 3, 2004, 09:30 PM
 
yes, but you won't be earning much above 3-5% in any sort of account these days, so keeping the $300 that you owe iDriveX or someone similar IN your account and paying on installment is going to cost you as much or more than you make by keeping the larger amount in hand. however we're talking about small amounts of money, and there are a lot of other factors involved with having money tied up in stocks and such...in most cases it ends up costing you to pull out at random anyway...
     
 
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