[Atomic Rooster]

Steven Spielberg quits as Beijing Olympics adviser.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...=Entertainment

China is believed to have special influence with Sudan because it buys two-thirds of the country's oil exports, while selling the regime weapons and defending Khartoum in the UN Security Council.

Not to mention what China does to it's own peeps. China really sucks.

[Cipher13]

I boycott all Olympics. So sure, I'm in.

[loki74]

我很喜歡中國。。。

Not to mention what China does to it's own peeps. China really sucks.

他們做了什麼? 我認試幾個中國人，還有幾個人去了 中國。他們都說中國好。我覺得很多 人說中國太不好，可是他們不知道。 。 。

要是我的中文很不好。。。那是因為 我是第一年的中文課的學生。


ps... why won't this display right unless I have random spaces in the text?

[el chupacabra]

id probably make more sense to post in english

"i like china a lot.
what have they done? I know some chinese people and people who've visted china and they all said it was great. I know people who say china sucks but they dont know much."

china is like the most polluted country, they never try to clean anything up and it's believed thats cuz they're trying to kill off some people to control their population; they water their crops with mine water...then a lot if gets shipped to walmart where americans buy it cuz its cheap. if you go around and ask questions about the goverment the government is all of a sudden very soviet style competent in contacting and questioning the people you talked too.

I like animals so I really hate the part of their couture that says 'the more endangered the better to eat' some parts of china look very nice but china is a crowded **** hole where people crap in the alley ways, and there is little law enforcement...unless you speak out against the government. The government tries to ban religion; hates the idea of personal deities because they say it distracts people from working for the better of the whole.

[Big Mac]

I don't think so. I am as anti-communist as they come, but in the last two or three decades China has been successfully charting a course away from totalitarianism and command-control economics. I think its hosting of the Olympics is another positive step on that path. Punitive measures against the country will, at this point, only serve to undermine the substantial progress that has been made and harm one of the world's most important economies.

[loki74]

Okay, I was just being a wise-ass by posting in Chinese. The last part was supposed to be more along the lines of "I think many people say China sucks, but don't know for sure." I wouldn't be so presumptuous to say they don't know much, because frankly I don't know that much either.

But really, I think a lot of that stuff is either exaggerated or outdated. I mean, I've never heard any of that sort of thing from anyone whose actually been there. I'll try to ask around a bit more, but forgive me if I'm a little skeptical here. Anyway, my brother will be spending a semester there this fall, so I'll ask him what it's like as well.

[el chupacabra]

Sorry I had trouble figuring out what exactly you were trying to say so improvised.

keep in mind people who go to a country as a tourist will have a different, more positive perspective of that country becaue they can avoid "the system".
People who go there because their job requires it for example, may have a more accurate perspective being forced to make the system work. (its many many times more crowded than nyc. and as of a few years ago their police force was unable to enforce anything.

China is beautiful if you hit all the tourist trap, great wall, buddhist temples, gardens, fine dining etc. and Beijing and hong kong look great from the air.

[loki74]

Yeah, I had a feeling you didn't plug it into a translator. Sounded too natural (and I think most of the electronic translators would say "what did they make?" instead of "what did they do?").

Hm, I mean people who have lived there. My brother's gf spent all of her life there, and both my Chinese teachers have lived in China for extended periods of time (many years). None of the aforementioned folks lived in Beijing or Hong Kong. The only thing I really heard was that you always should boil your water before you drink it, and that it's customary to order some wine (with very high alcohol content) to cleanse the chopsticks...

[PB2K]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Steven Spielberg quits as Beijing Olympics adviser

yes, and newspapers also write about his new INDIANA JONES movie in the same articles.

just a fast costs/benefits analysis : you make more money with a movie than with decorating an olympic stadiumhall

[red rocket]

Correct me if I missed it, but I don't recall Spielberg moaning about the US's Iraqi and Afghan genocides, extraordinary renditions, torture, kangaroo courts at Guantanamo Bay, and all the other crimes perpetrated by his own government, never mind the colossal hypocrisy of the US not actually doing a bloody thing about stopping the civil war in Darfur, itself.

Always nice to have some other country to criticise.

[hwojtek]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

in the last two or three decades China has been successfully charting a course away from totalitarianism and command-control economics.

You must be f* kiddin' me.

1989 Tiananmen Square massacre. Haven't heard about it?

Tibet, doesn't ring a bell?

Birth control? Forced abortion in 8th month of pregnancy?

Imagine actually living in Orwell's "1984". Multiply by 5. Go to China and see something else than tourist attractions for yourself before you joyfully share another revelation about China "successfully charting a course away from totalitarianism".

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by loki74 

要是我的中文很不好。。。那是因為 我是第一年的中文課的學生。

能看得出来。 有那种不太顺口的感觉， 好像想说出来很多东西， 但词汇又不够以不思而言。 不用担心， 过会儿就会好。

ps... why won't this display right unless I have random spaces in the text?

Forum/Unicode bug. Requires an extra space every 16 characters.

[MacosNerd]

Hey the Olympic organizers and Spielberg knew what they were getting into when they chose China. They have a long history of human rights violations. Why did Spielberg suddenly get morals. Dufar is a cause-celeb that's why. While those people are certainly suffering under deplorable conditions. don't foget that China doesn't run Sudan, and they also have shown a disdain for their own citizens well being *tiananmen square incident *


So now we're all upset that China as not done enough to end the suffering in Dufar? So the world should boycott the Olympics. Why have the [b] world[/d] do something about Dufar instead of shaking their finger at China.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by hwojtek 

You must be f* kiddin' me.

Not really, no. Chartering a course away from totalitarianism and command-control economics doesn’t mean they’re suddenly a democratic nation. They’re not. But they’re better now, in many respects, than they were 20–30 years ago. They’re trying to move in what we’d call the ‘right’ direction without sacrificing a blooming economy and without losing faith by publically renouncing communism as the cornerstone of the Chinese nation. That’s not a process quickly fulfilled.

Imagine actually living in Orwell's "1984". Multiply by 5. Go to China and see something else than tourist attractions for yourself before you joyfully share another revelation about China "successfully charting a course away from totalitarianism".

Have you taken your own advice? It doesn’t sound like it.

You try going to China and living among regular, commonplace Chinese people, and perhaps you’d find that it’s not 1984 times five.

Chen Guancheng is a good example of a vocal activist who was silenced (I can’t seem to find any stories about what happened to him after he was sentenced to his four years in gaol), but what the stories don’t tell you is that, despite the fact that Chen was obviously wronged and a case of miscarriage of justice, the Party did listen to him—they just couldn’t have him being too loud about what he said. Local- and provincial-level officials dealing with ‘family planning’ (as they so euphemistically call it) are under stricter control now than they were only three years ago, to make sure that the country’s own laws are actually upheld, not only in name, but in practice, too. They never made a big deal about it, since that could be construed as a weakness, but they did make internal changes. That’s the way the Party operates.

[ghporter]

Today the cost of metals in the U.S. is at record levels. Brass, copper, lead, aluminum, steel-everything has gone through the roof, changing the dynamic of metal trading and pushing other metals like gold and silver to ludicrous prices. Why? Beijing doesn't want to spend the money to develop China's VAST metal resources, so they're paying for scrap and ore from countries like the U.S. This has led to increases in the cost of everything from electronics to cookware, and there is no end in sight.

Is China doing this to reduce pollution at home? No. They don't give a rat's naked tail about pollution. It's all about economic influence. If they wield economic power, other countries will be less likely to use their own economic power to influence what goes on in China. Shrewd. I already don't buy anything made in China that I can possibly avoid. If I buy anything at Wal-Mart, for example, it's gotta be from the U.S. or some more benign country than China (usually the latter, sadly). China's only real power is in its enormous population that China's leaders can use as they wish. Sure, what they make is driven by demand (foreign demand), but Beijing still tells people what to do. If I don't buy their products (as much as possible), then I don't give them any help at that.

This is a VERY political issue, but it's global politics, and the politics of the world economy. I simply refuse to play a crooked game.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

T I already don't buy anything made in China that I can possibly avoid.

I'd love to and I tried but its impossible. I have kids and if they want anything with a name brand on it, it will get made in china. The wife and I tried to find toys and such that weren't made in china and found virtually none. Yes, there's puzzles and wooden toys are made in America but anything like Barbie or from Mattel, your SOL

[hwojtek]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

But they’re better now, in many respects, than they were 20–30 years ago.

I doubt it. I've been to China and also been talking quite a lot with Chinese people who fleed China. They have quite a different look on what has changed and what hasn't. Economical growth? Yes, it happens (and brings even more corruption). Human rights? no change.

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Chen Guancheng is a good example of a vocal activist who was silenced (I can’t seem to find any stories about what happened to him after he was sentenced to his four years in gaol)

It's plain and simple, his appeal was overthrown and now he serves his 4 years and 3 months.

Originally Posted by Oisín 

despite the fact that Chen was obviously wronged and a case of miscarriage of justice, the Party did listen to him—they just couldn’t have him being too loud about what he said.

This is quite close to hypocrisy, methinks.

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Local- and provincial-level officials dealing with ‘family planning’ (as they so euphemistically call it) are under stricter control now than they were only three years ago, to make sure that the country’s own laws are actually upheld, not only in name, but in practice, too. They never made a big deal about it, since that could be construed as a weakness, but they did make internal changes. That’s the way the Party operates.

That's the way the Party spreads its propaganda. "FYI, we do change". The point is, it's a show. They set up a model "change" in a district just to have a perfect example of "change" for unsuspecting foreign journalists. This is how it worked in USSR, Angola, Vietnam, North Korea. The rest of the country can only dream of such a change happening.

Not so long ago (2006) Luo Gan, member of the Politbureau Commitee has called ALL the lawyers who defend Chinese dissidents "pretenders of the human rights defenders", "enemies of the Party" which ultimately led to "enemies of the state". The number of lawyers who disappeared since, is over 100 and growing. While "interrogated", Guo Feixiong has been tied with chains to his prison bed for 40 days!

There is far less change in China than China wants you to believe. Check out the Human Rights Watch report on China. It may open some eyes.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

I'd love to and I tried but its impossible. I have kids and if they want anything with a name brand on it, it will get made in china. The wife and I tried to find toys and such that weren't made in china and found virtually none. Yes, there's puzzles and wooden toys are made in America but anything like Barbie or from Mattel, your SOL

Respectfully, i suggest you teach your children to be less brand-oriented. The only brand we were ever really interested in was Lego and we even got over that. Seriously, the only thing those brands bring that other brands don't is the taint of Chinese pseudo-capitalism.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Today the cost of metals in the U.S. is at record levels. Brass, copper, lead, aluminum, steel-everything has gone through the roof, changing the dynamic of metal trading and pushing other metals like gold and silver to ludicrous prices. Why? Beijing doesn't want to spend the money to develop China's VAST metal resources, so they're paying for scrap and ore from countries like the U.S. This has led to increases in the cost of everything from electronics to cookware, and there is no end in sight.

Yes. Isn't it funny how globalization works both ways?

You buy cheaper computers, and China buys cheaper steel.

At some point, labor costs in China will rise to a point where it's no longer so much cheaper to buy electronics made there, and at some point, steel prices will rise to a point where it's feasible for China to utilize their own resources more.

This is the way we wanted it, this is the way it is.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Respectfully, i suggest you teach your children to be less brand-oriented. The only brand we were ever really interested in was Lego and we even got over that. Seriously, the only thing those brands bring that other brands don't is the taint of Chinese pseudo-capitalism.

You on an Apple computer, there?

Edit: I realize that you said "products you can possibly avoid", and I wasn't singling you out. I'm just saying that this is the market we've been told we wanted, and we've been reaping the benefits of globalization for decades. Chinese growth is already beginning to dictate large parts of the global economy, and there really isn't anything that can be done about this that doesn't fundamentally reek of hypocrisy.

As for the human rights argument and "boycotting" China: You are talking about a country with four times the population of the United States. Important things are glacially slow with 300 million people. Now imagine turning a nation of four times that inside out, and trying to do so without tearing the country apart.

You're not going to "shame them" into changing. You're not going to bomb them into changing. They'd laugh at you. They're already changing. Slowly.

[Oversoul]

If there is a boycott, it would almost be a shame in the sense that some of the venues being built for the Beijing Olympics are nothing short of revolutionary and awe inspiring. In particular, check out the National Stadium and the Aquatics Center.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

Correct me if I missed it, but I don't recall Spielberg moaning about the US's Iraqi and Afghan genocides, extraordinary renditions, torture, kangaroo courts at Guantanamo Bay, and all the other crimes perpetrated by his own government, never mind the colossal hypocrisy of the US not actually doing a bloody thing about stopping the civil war in Darfur, itself.

Always nice to have some other country to criticise.

Also:

I heard a rather useful interview on the radio the other day ( Deutschlandradio ) with an international relations expert on China. His take on their dealings with dictators and other totalitarian regimes was this:

They are far more pragmatic than the West. They do not try to insist upon "change" (look where that got the U.S.). They invest. Lots. And lots. In Africa, especially (since that's where the most untapped resources are).

And their investment is often practical, and pragmatic: Roads, hospitals, electricity, infrastructure.

And to people out in the backlands of some dictatorial-regime country, that makes the Chinese worth a hell of a lot more than us Western folks sitting around moralizing and boycotting this or that while people die.

We talk, and sometimes we spend money, much of which ends in the pockets of these regimes.

They build.

[osiris]

I've spent a lot of time there, it is a mess on so many levels - but the people know it and they want change, and it is changing (though perhaps too slowly for impatient westerners.)
Banning the Olympics will only prevent what may be the first publicly televised revolution!
Think of the ratings.

[d4nth3m4n]

explain to me again why this isn't poli/war material?

i think bolycotting olympics is a petty ass thing to do.

[MacosNerd]

It is, and I expect this thread to end up their

[Hugi]

Hmm. Intereseting to see some people defending a communist dictatorship (and a rather disgusting one, at that).

Edit: Although I do believe the Olympics are doing good for China. Openness and cooperation helps - that's something the US should have learnt from the whole Cuba-thing.

[Tiresias]

No.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

It is, and I expect this thread to end up their

Up whose what?

[Eug]

I hope everyone boycotts it. That way I can get a cheap flight and cheap accomodations to go.

Originally Posted by loki74 

我很喜歡中國。。。

他們做了什麼? 我認試幾個中國人，還有幾個人去了 中國。他們都說中國好。我覺得很多 人說中國太不好，可是他們不知道。 。 。

要是我的中文很不好。。。那是因為 我是第一年的中文課的學生。

ps... why won't this display right unless I have random spaces in the text?

How are you entering it by the way in OS X? I've never really learned how to do it.

Oh and does your school teach the old or the new chars?

P.S. Wrong forum.

[- - e r i k - -]

How is this NOT in the poliwar-retard lounge?

And no, it will never happen. Boycott the Olympics. Pffft.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Eug 

How are you entering it by the way in OS X? I've never really learned how to do it.

International Pref Pane -> Input Menu

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by hwojtek 

I doubt it. I've been to China and also been talking quite a lot with Chinese people who fleed China. They have quite a different look on what has changed and what hasn't. Economical growth? Yes, it happens (and brings even more corruption). Human rights? no change.

Yes, people who’ve fled China have quite a different look on what’s changed and what hasn’t. In many (probably most) cases, that’s more due to them being out of touch with the ways the inner workings of Chinese society has changed than anything else.

This is quite close to hypocrisy, methinks.

Of course it is. It’s blatant hypocrisy. I never said the Party is not hypocritical.

That's the way the Party spreads its propaganda. "FYI, we do change". The point is, it's a show. They set up a model "change" in a district just to have a perfect example of "change" for unsuspecting foreign journalists.

They do that, yes. A lot.

What I’m talking about here, though, is quite the opposite: this was never announced, and it didn’t make it to the papers. The only reason I know about it is that I was friends with a local-level Party official who worked a lot with family planning when the whole Linyi thing happened. By his own words, his job was being made more and more insecure and difficult by the ever-increasing control and looking over his shoulder of various more or less covertly planted Party inspectors. He was very much against the methods they’d used in Shandong (despite being a Party goon, he was a very nice guy), but he was still treated with increased mistrust from above and became increasingly nervous of crossing a (sometimes unwritten) line between incentive and coercion.

How are you entering it by the way in OS X? I've never really learned how to do it.

Just add Chinese to the list of keyboard layouts in your keyboard menu and type away. Use the Pinyin one, though: the others all suck (no, I’m not input-biased at all ). And the traditional one sucks, too, ’cause you can only type in one character at a time before you have to convert—meaning that polysyllabic words are a hassle to type (especially the uncommon ones, like 邋遢: piece of cake when you can write it as one word, since there’s only one other word written lata; but terribly bothersome when you have to find both the right la and the right ta separately—they’re number 15 and 18 on their respective lists. Or, even worse, 魑魅魍魉: they number 42, 30, 16, and 19, respectively).

Oh and does your school teach the old or the new chars?

Since he’s actually bothering to use the traditional one (despite its suckiness), I’m assuming his school teaches traditional characters. I wonder why, though? He’s obviously learning Mandarin, and since about 99 per cent of all Mandarin speakers are from Mainland China, where traditional characters no longer have any official recognition, I wonder what the reason behind teaching the traditional ones over the simplified ones is...

[loki74]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

能看得出来。 有那种不太顺口的感觉， 好像想说出来很多东西， 但词汇又不够以不思而言。 不用担心， 过会儿就回好。

我太 noob! 不知道很多漢字。可是，我覺得 我可以懂一點儿。。。

我有一個問題。你是中國人，還是太 好中文學生？ ^___^

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Not really, no. Chartering a course away from totalitarianism and command-control economics doesn’t mean they’re suddenly a democratic nation. They’re not. But they’re better now, in many respects, than they were 20–30 years ago. They’re trying to move in what we’d call the ‘right’ direction without sacrificing a blooming economy and without losing faith by publically renouncing communism as the cornerstone of the Chinese nation. That’s not a process quickly fulfilled.

Have you taken your own advice? It doesn’t sound like it.

You try going to China and living among regular, commonplace Chinese people, and perhaps you’d find that it’s not 1984 times five.

Chen Guancheng is a good example of a vocal activist who was silenced (I can’t seem to find any stories about what happened to him after he was sentenced to his four years in gaol), but what the stories don’t tell you is that, despite the fact that Chen was obviously wronged and a case of miscarriage of justice, the Party did listen to him—they just couldn’t have him being too loud about what he said. Local- and provincial-level officials dealing with ‘family planning’ (as they so euphemistically call it) are under stricter control now than they were only three years ago, to make sure that the country’s own laws are actually upheld, not only in name, but in practice, too. They never made a big deal about it, since that could be construed as a weakness, but they did make internal changes. That’s the way the Party operates.

Excellent points. And it sounds like you actually have some first hand knowledge to back it up (not like me, lol).

How are you entering it by the way in OS X? I've never really learned how to do it.

Oh and does your school teach the old or the new chars?

我的學校教簡体字，可是我喜歡繁体 字。我覺的繁体字很票亮。And yeah, the traditional input sucks... but like I said, I think they're prettier (well, most of the time anyway), and sometimes I find them easier to remember, despite being more complicated. Also, it seems that wherever I go here in America where written Chinese is prevalent, traditional characters seem to be more common. The one-char-at-a-time thing is a real hassle, but I can get around it b/c my vocabulary is too small to demand that I scroll too much to grab any words.. hehe....

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by loki74 

我太 noob! 不知道很多漢字。可是，我覺得 我可以懂一點儿。。。

我有一個問題。你是中國人，還是太 好中文學生？ ^___^

呵呵。 我是二十二岁的时候开始学汉语的丹 麦人，不过， 我曾经呆过一年半在北京， 而且 回来之后又找了一个中国男朋友， 所以我现在 一般都不会有什么问题讲中文了。 我去年夏天刚毕业了， 正好拿下本科学位。 不过大部分的中文都是校外学来的。

Edit: Just noticed a typo in my first post, the one you quoted: it was supposed to be “过会儿就会好”, not “过会儿就回好”. I don’t want to teach you bad habits.

我的學校教簡体字，可是我喜歡繁体 字。我覺的繁体字很票亮。

Heh, I actually disagree a lot with that: I find the simplified ones far more aesthetically beautiful for type. For calligraphy, yes, the traditional ones are prettier; but for regular handwriting or especially computerised writing, the simplified ones are a lot prettier to me.

and sometimes I find them easier to remember, despite being more complicated.

The traditional ones often give better hints to their meaning and/or pronunciation, so it’s only logical that they can be easier to remember. With some exceptions, of course. 忧郁 (yōuyù ‘melancholic, dejected, sad’) is infinitely easier for me to remember (especially how to write) than 憂鬱!

Also, it seems that wherever I go here in America where written Chinese is prevalent, traditional characters seem to be more common.

Over here, the majority of Chinese immigrants are from the 1960s and 1970s, and most are from the ‘north’ (not the actual north, but north of the main emigrant areas, i.e., anything north of Zhejiang), so most signs here are either in all simplified characters or in a haphazard mixture of both (since many now middle-aged immigrants came here before finishing their education in Chinese, thus being only semi-literate in Chinese).

Why Boycott the Olympics? We buy products made in China every day. Boycotting the Olympics will make no impact.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

Why Boycott the Olympics? We buy products made in China every day. Boycotting the Olympics will make no impact.

Good point. It's kind of like my brother-in-law the ultra-environmentalist and how he lets the water faucet run the entire time he is brushing his teeth.