[Sealobo]

"Life is suffer and it's a good idea to end it ASAP."

I quote that from my brother. It was a serious topic, lasted for the whole day.

Tell me some good things about life so i can tell him to live on.

[SOLIDAge]

but think about the people that you'll hurt when you end what you see as suffer? Do you really want to do that to loved ones?

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by solidage:
<STRONG>but think about the people that you'll hurt when you end what you see as suffer? Do you really want to do that to loved ones?</STRONG>

He *thinks* nobody cares. Our parents divorced few years ago and all the children stayed with Dad. However Dad is always travelling, and his 2 elder brothers are studying abroad. He could do whatever he wants and nobody would know. And he's the selfish type. He's only 17.

[11011001]

Arg... what is up with that class of philisophy? Life is suffering? Bah, whatever. Life is whatever you make it. I want it to be awesome, so I will make it so.

I think people get a few bad things happening to them, and they just loose site of how much fun it is to live. I mean have you ever marveled at how cool your hand is? I mean, you can make it do pretty much anything. There are a gazillion little things in life that can bring one joy.

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by 11011001:
<STRONG>Arg... what is up with that class of philisophy? Life is suffering? Bah, whatever. Life is whatever you make it. I want it to be awesome, so I will make it so.

I think people get a few bad things happening to them, and they just loose site of how much fun it is to live. I mean have you ever marveled at how cool your hand is? I mean, you can make it do pretty much anything. There are a gazillion little things in life that can bring one joy.</STRONG>

We have a weird family history. When i was born 22 years ago, my family was poor like shit, we didn't have much furniture at home excepted for the beds and clock (if you consider the clock a furniture...). After 22 years of my father's hardwork, we are now kinda wealthy.

Since my little bro always at home by himself, he has a lot of control over his money, and my father gives him a lot. He tried a lot of good/bad things in life at the age of 17. He has no goals, that's one of the major issues. I don't know how to explain to him.

[curmi]

Originally posted by sealobo:
<STRONG>"Life is suffer and it's a good idea to end it ASAP."

I quote that from my brother. It was a serious topic, lasted for the whole day.

Tell me some good things about life so i can tell him to live on.</STRONG>

Was he really serious about taking his own life? If so, he might need professional help, not help from MacNN readers...

Some good things? Love. Sex. Macs. Video games. Chocolate. Good Friends. Good books...

Find out his favourite movie. Sit down and watch it with him. Go out to a movie and to some local cafes after for cake and coffee.

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by curmi:
<STRONG>Was he really serious about taking his own life? If so, he might need professional help, not help from MacNN readers...</STRONG>

Our discussion was quite serious, and he said the same thing to dad when i wasn't around.

<STRONG>

Some good things? Love. Sex. Macs. Video games. Chocolate. Good Friends. Good books...</STRONG>

He tried them all. Plus more.

<STRONG>

Find out his favourite movie. Sit down and watch it with him. Go out to a movie and to some local cafes after for cake and coffee.</STRONG>

His favourite movie is Boiler Room. We watched it like 10 times last summer. We remember a lot of lines, like this:

"I have a ridiculous house at South Folk!" - Jim Young

After the cake and coffer... don't you think it's cheesy for two guys?

I actually don't fear that he would actually kill himself, the likelihood is low.But i feel pity for his way of thought.

[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: sealobo ]

[dtriska]

Originally posted by sealobo:
<STRONG>Tell me some good things about life so i can tell him to live on.</STRONG>

Tomorrow.

The only thing I remember from my health classes is that when a person starts talking about suicide, he mostly likely is willing to do it. I would seek professional help.

[cheerios]

Originally posted by dtriska:
<STRONG>

Tomorrow.

The only thing I remember from my health classes is that when a person starts talking about suicide, he mostly likely is willing to do it. I would seek professional help.</STRONG>

yup. And the worst thing in the world, is thinking that if you did, no one would give a shit. #2 is thinking everyone ELSE thinks something's wrong with you. at 17, you (or I, at least), are just looking to be normal, and when you're feeling like that, you KNOW it's not normal, which makes it worse. Be careful about FORCING him into anything, esp therapy-type things... I resented my parents for that, soo much, felt like my dad, who was kind of my defender in most things, had betrayed me. I understand he was worried, but that was going against MY wishes, which I felt weren't being acknowledged.

LISTEN to your bro. let him talk. I know talk of suicide is a bad thing, but even worse is NOT having someone to talk to about it. Because the talking, it's an outlet for the feelings. No talking, it means finding another such outlet. For me, it was writing, and when words abandoned me, it was drawing, and when pictures couldn't express it, it was seeing if I was still capable of feeling... with the edge of a razor blade and my forearm. Luckily, the thought of me bleeding and crying over it in one room, while my little sister slept in the next, and the thought she may find me dead one morning, scared me a LOT more than life did/does.

If he's willing to talk to you, be sure to listen, and not judge. It's MAJORLY hard to open up to someone when you're feelin' like the whole damn world is out to get you, so that he's talking to you, says he respects and trusts you a lot. Listen to him. You don't have to fix it, but listen, and let him know you understand.

Don't know if that's helpful... :shrug:

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by cheerios:
<STRONG>

yup. And the worst thing in the world, is thinking that if you did, no one would give a shit. #2 is thinking everyone ELSE thinks something's wrong with you. at 17, you (or I, at least), are just looking to be normal, and when you're feeling like that, you KNOW it's not normal, which makes it worse. Be careful about FORCING him into anything, esp therapy-type things... I resented my parents for that, soo much, felt like my dad, who was kind of my defender in most things, had betrayed me. I understand he was worried, but that was going against MY wishes, which I felt weren't being acknowledged.

LISTEN to your bro. let him talk. I know talk of suicide is a bad thing, but even worse is NOT having someone to talk to about it. Because the talking, it's an outlet for the feelings. No talking, it means finding another such outlet. For me, it was writing, and when words abandoned me, it was drawing, and when pictures couldn't express it, it was seeing if I was still capable of feeling... with the edge of a razor blade and my forearm. Luckily, the thought of me bleeding and crying over it in one room, while my little sister slept in the next, and the thought she may find me dead one morning, scared me a LOT more than life did/does.

If he's willing to talk to you, be sure to listen, and not judge. It's MAJORLY hard to open up to someone when you're feelin' like the whole damn world is out to get you, so that he's talking to you, says he respects and trusts you a lot. Listen to him. You don't have to fix it, but listen, and let him know you understand.

Don't know if that's helpful... :shrug:</STRONG>

Yeah listen and talk to him like a friend is the best thing to do. I worry becasue i can't do that when he's on the other side of the planet.

You are right, he hates to be controlled/judged, he always like to make his own decision. When i was at his age i was pretty much the same but I had never thought of ending my own life. Bascially he's asking "What's the meaning of life?" and if the answer is "nothing much if I've tried almost everything" then why not end it? His world is too small but he doesn't realize it. I feel really sorry for him. I think it's part of fault because i didn't think about my younger brother and left him all along by himself and study Uni at else where.

Anyway, the next challenge for him will be studying in Japan by himself for a few good years, hopefully he will be alright.

[lurkalot]

Anyway, the next challenge for him will be studying in Japan by himself for a few good years, hopefully he will be alright.

I suggest you get a good deal of this resolved before he goes.
Travel rarely solves problems it merely moves them. Suicidal Tendencies are nice to pack for a walkman not good baggage for the brain.

Is he looking forward to the trip? Has he ever travelled by himself before?

Call a suicide help line near you if you want better advice. Maybe he is just looking for attention but always take it seriously when someone spents a lot of time pondering these things. You don't want to wonder the rest of your life "could I have stopped him."

And a slightly more morbid note. Japan is the "capitol" of teenage suicide.

[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: lurkalot ]

[seanyepez]

Your old signature was to live for.

The new one is freaky, and I rather dislike it.

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by lurkalot:
<STRONG>
I suggest you get a good deal of this resolved before he goes.
Travel rarely solves problems it merely moves them. Suicidal Tendencies are nice to pack for a walkman not good baggage for the brain.

Is he looking forward to the trip? Has he ever travelled by himself before?
</STRONG>

Yeah he is looking forward to the trip, he likes Japan. I hope he can kinda start a new life in Japan because things in Hong Kong are too screwd up for him. (he is actually being asked to withdraw from his school after the IGCSE exams)

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by seanyepez:
<STRONG>Your old signature was to live for.

The new one is freaky, and I rather dislike it. </STRONG>

I am going to change that SOON.

[btober]

Originally posted by 11011001:
<STRONG>Life is suffering?</STRONG>

Actually, yes.

May I quote from the noble Buddha...

The Four Noble Truths

1. Life means suffering. (life is suffering)

2. The origin of suffering is attachment. (material items interfere with life)

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable. (you can stop suffering)

4. The path to the cessation of suffering. (the eightfold path allows you to end suffering)

furthermore, you may end suffering by following the eightfold path...

The Noble Eightfold Path

1. Right View

2. Right Intention

3. Right Speech

4. Right Action

5. Right Livelihood

6. Right Effort

7. Right Mindfulness

8. Right Concentration

edit- added some explanation

[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: btober ]

[Sealobo]

very deep...

[poocat]

this is what i have to say.

my best friend killed himself three years ago.

it sucks beyond belief for your friends and family.
there's no way to explain it.
i can't possibly hope to.

all i'm saying is, no matter what you think
this life is more amazing, grants more possibilities,
and shares more,

than you could possibly imagine.

don't hide.
reach out.

i promise,
it's worth living,
and it's worth living large.

poocat.

(for no one but you jef.)

[poocat]

btw (only noticed this after my last post) i'm 22 and just moved to japan after college... it's a shock... you should let your brother know that there are other people here and struggling w/ it (language, culture, etc...)... it's not easy, but it does make you bold.

stretch and reach.

promise.
it's all worth while.

pcat.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by sealobo:
<STRONG>"Life is suffer and it's a good idea to end it ASAP."

I quote that from my brother. It was a serious topic, lasted for the whole day.

Tell me some good things about life so i can tell him to live on.</STRONG>

This is likely to be very painful to hear, but I have to be blunt. If you can't come up with reasons to live on your own, then your ability to help him will be severely reduced. You have to be able to think on your feet, for yourself, in a case such as this.

This is the most important thing. You have to discover with complete certainty your own reasons for living, because they very likely will be called into question if this continues, and if you can't answer then you won't be able to do anything more.

Perhaps the best advice I can give you, however, is a technique my girlfriend has used many times on people who were talking about suicide, and which I've had to use myself a couple of times, so I can verify that it works. Keep talking it over with him all he wants, but make him promise you one thing: that if he decides to actually kill himself, he'll talk with you before actually doing it -face-to-face, over the phone, or whatever works- to give you one last chance to talk him out of it (if he does it by letter or e-mail, he must wait for you to reply; make that part of the deal). If you cannot talk him out of it then, you will step back and let him decide what to do with his life. But if you can convince him not to die, then he has to live.

For some people, this technique makes talking them down even easier. These are the people who will get offended when you make this deal with them, because you agree to step back. If you ask them why, they'll usually say it's because it means there's a point at which you won't stop them anymore. At this point you have them, because if they want you to keep on stopping them, then they must not really want to die. If you're lucky enough to have the conversation turn to this point, you won't believe how effective this simple bit of logic can be. Oftentimes it won't be so easy, unfortunately.

This has never failed either my girlfriend or myself. But there's one very important thing you have to realize: even though it's always worked for us, it might fail for someone else, and the person might really take his own life. If this happens, then there was never anything you could have done. You have to realize this, or it'll drive you nuts.

I'm sorry; I know I've been sounding rather cold over an issue that's so delicate and emotional. I'm just trying to impart what experience I can; that's kind of hard to do over a Web forum like this.

[ringo]

If he's rational, you should be able to convince him not to because no one knows what comes after life.

He risks leaving a world of suffering for a world or even greater suffering by finishing this life.

There is no guarantee that death will end his suffering.

[spb]

maybe ca$h has some insightful , subtle comment he'd like to make regarding this very sensitive subject..

thought not.

life is what you make it , or nowadays , what other people make it , it seems...

[Millennium]

Originally posted by ringo:
<STRONG>If he's rational, you should be able to convince him not to because no one knows what comes after life.

He risks leaving a world of suffering for a world or even greater suffering by finishing this life.

There is no guarantee that death will end his suffering.</STRONG>

If only it were that simple, ringo.

Trying to deal rationally with someone who's suicidal is generally not a good idea. The very fact that they're suicidal is a lapse of rationality, and so you won't be able to discuss it in rational terms.

Besides which, your tactic will fail on a fanatical skeptic, who would refuse to accept any possibility of life after death, even just for the sake of argument. Trust me; I've dealt with such people before. I don't know if sealobo's brother is such a person, but if he is, the results would not be pretty.

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>
This is likely to be very painful to hear, but I have to be blunt. If you can't come up with reasons to live on your own, then your ability to help him will be severely reduced. You have to be able to think on your feet, for yourself, in a case such as this.</STRONG>

Nono... i think you're mistaken. I am leading a good life, but my bro isn't. I couldn't really reason with him because we have different "background". I have tons of reasons to keep on going in my life because i have many goals waiting for myself to reach. But he doesn't have any. When i talk to him about this matter, it's like I was trying to explains the good taste of a AAA new york sirloin to somebody who's never tasted anything good in his life. That is, he doesn't understand that feeling when you can actually accomplish something entirely on your own and you get rewards by getting something done. And it's a sad thing for him to think this way since he's only 17. At this age he's suppose to be childish, naive and worrying about nothing. But he isn't.

I think he needs a break through.

[RWoelk]

While I can appreciate everyone's careful and well intended input here, for heaven's sakes get your brother some professional help...STAT! Your getting advice from lay people. Suicidal ideation should always be taken seriously, particularly in a 17 year old, and to try and mitigate his complexity of issues and feelings on your own is playing with dynamite.

Hopefully, he would seek help and be evaluated willingly. I can't speak to the laws in Canada, but there are provisions in this country to get him help, over a short period of a few days, even against his better wishes if a Doctor or Police officer feels strongly he is a danger to himself or others.

It's likely he could benefit from a combination of psychotherapy and psychotropic medications which is obviously beyond your scope to prescribe.

He needs a workup ASAP so get him evaluated...

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by RWoelk:
<STRONG>While I can appreciate everyone's careful and well intended input here, for heaven's sakes get your brother some professional help...STAT! Your getting advice from lay people. Suicidal ideation should always be taken seriously, particularly in a 17 year old, and to try and mitigate his complexity of issues and feelings on your own is playing with dynamite.

Hopefully, he would seek help and be evaluated willingly. I can't speak to the laws in Canada, but there are provisions in this country to get him help, over a short period of a few days, even against his better wishes if a Doctor or Police officer feels strongly he is a danger to himself or others.

It's likely he could benefit from a combination of psychotherapy and psychotropic medications which is obviously beyond your scope to prescribe.

He needs a workup ASAP so get him evaluated...</STRONG>

He is not THAT bad... (btw he's located in Hong Kong). What he really needs isn't some professional help to get him out of the idea of killing himself but instead some directions in life. (sorry the thread title might seems misleading...) He's kinda in the middle of nowhere and i guess it's normal for him to relate things on the negative side in his thought. However, he gave a serious thought about the possibility of "dying" and end up having a conclusion like "why not?".

Again, i think he needs a breakthrough.

[spb]

a good start might be asking someone with a REAL opinion ..

like a doctor .. etc ??

Good Luck.

[Gene Jockey]

Well, having witnessed my friend come within a half hour of dying this time last year, I just want to chime in on the Get Professional Help idea.

My friend had (well, still has) a chemical imbalance that makes him extremely anxious and unable to accept happiness if not treated. The fact that his medication stopped being effective led in no small part to his attempt to kill himself. Since his recovery and subsequent re-medication, he has been the happiest I have ever seen him.

Now, I don't know that your bro has a physical problem, or a purely mental one. But it's not something you just want to guess at if you don't have to, that's why there are trained mental health professionals. Just remember, the most important thing you can do is to never stop treating this as anything but utterly serious...

[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: Gene Jockey ]

[RWoelk]

"He's not that bad..."

Perhaps, but then neither was my brother at 17 or so we all thought. He's dead now. Suicide at age 18. He allowed a train to run him over while jogging on the train tracks. His body, torn and lifeless, was drug 600 feet. The family, his clinician and myself thought he suffered only from a mild case of depression. Indeed, he never really presented with suicidal ideation...at least he never shared that with anyone.

From an "About suicide web site"

"About one in three American teenagers has contemplated suicide. An Internet poll by About.com indicated that 50% of teens visiting that web site had considered it. Suicide is the eighth leading cause of death among the entire population. Suicide has been reported as the second leading cause of death among teenagers, exceeded only by traffic accidents. However, the suicide rate among teens is actually lower than that of older persons. Teens tend to have few life-threatening illnesses; teenage deaths from disease is quite low. Thus, the relatively few suicides among teens make suicide a leading cause of death. 3
The reported U.S. suicide rate for very young people (10 to 14 years of age) increased by 183% between 1970 and 1993. However, much of this increase may not be real. In the past, there was widespread denial that pre-teens could decide to end their lives."

So, certainly I may be biased and maybe all your brother suffers from is some mild form of situational depression, but I would tend to err on the side letting a trained professional make that determination.

It's your call and that of your brothers'....

[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: RWoelk ]

[clRagnarok]

guys, i think he just wanted some good things about life...

you have to appreciate the small things in order to enjoy the big things. what i mean is, take the time to wonder about the awesomeness of a blade of grass. the design to it is perfect, and it serves so many functions. or what about the flawless organization of animal wildlife? whales, the largest animals, migrate in the same way and at the same time as butterflies, among the smallest animals.

there are so many beautiful things to live for, you just gotta look for them.

[MikeM32]

I see trees of green red roses too I see them bloom for me and you...

And I think to myself what a wonderful world....

I see skies of blue and clouds of white the bright blessed day and the dark sacred night........

And I think to myself what a wonderful world....

The colors of the rainbow, so pretty in the sky, are also on the faces of people going by......

I see friends shaking hands saying "how do you do?" they're really saying "I love you".....

I hear beggars cry I watch them grow they'll learn much more then I'll ever know......

And I think to myself what a wonderful world, yeah I think to myself what a wonderful world.....

I've done lots of stupid assinine things in my life, but I don't regret any of them. Life is a learning experience. More importantly it's too short to live in guilt or regret, so you f_ck-up so what?!? Everyone does, you pick yourself up dust yourself off and start all over again.

I'm not even a religious person, but I do believe suicide is for cowards. There's some stupid reason we're on this planet, I just haven't figured what that reason is yet.

And be good, be "excellent" to one another. That's important.

So I say live long, party hard, and when you do die you'll know you gave it your best shot.

Mike

[ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: MikeM32 ]

[spb]

RESPECT

[Millennium]

Originally posted by sealobo:
<STRONG>

Nono... i think you're mistaken. I am leading a good life, but my bro isn't. I couldn't really reason with him because we have different "background". I have tons of reasons to keep on going in my life because i have many goals waiting for myself to reach. But he doesn't have any. When i talk to him about this matter, it's like I was trying to explains the good taste of a AAA new york sirloin to somebody who's never tasted anything good in his life. That is, he doesn't understand that feeling when you can actually accomplish something entirely on your own and you get rewards by getting something done. And it's a sad thing for him to think this way since he's only 17. At this age he's suppose to be childish, naive and worrying about nothing. But he isn't.

I think he needs a break through.</STRONG>

If his life is really that bad, then thinking of good things about life isn't going to help him. If anything, it'll only make him worse, since he apparently believes that he can't experience this stuff.

But anyway, I'm afraid I worded what I said rather poorly. Your brother thinks life is nothing but suffering. He believes there is no purpose to his life. Given this, he's very likely to call your own purpose into question if you try to talk with him about that, and if he does, then you have to know what it is, or you won't be able to help him.

And allow me to echo what others have said here: get professional help. Just the fact that you had to post here proves that you're in way over your head. And you'd probably be in way over your head even if you didn't feel the need to post here. I've been in every time before, as has my girlfriend; you really need to get this guy to a professional. And soon, if he's going to Japan.

[mchladek]

I'm afraid I won't be able to help you too much, but I'll tell you what I've experienced.

First of all as others have said TAKE IT SERIOUSLY! My uncle 'joked' about suicide and bluntly asked my father what the family would think if he did take his life. Unfortunately, my family didn't take those words seriously and he did commit suicide.

That said I have two words of advice: 1) Is he actively involved in any organizations (in particular religious organizations? I know when I was his age I constantly questioned the meaning of life, and whether dying would be a way out of suffering. At that time I had given up on my Christian life. However, now I have rekindled my spirituality and have found Buddhism to be able to explain many of the questions I posed as a teenager. I'm not saying Buddhism is your brother's ticket out of suicide, but I do believe any religion, not just Buddhism, gives meaning to life and can make it enjoyable (especially if you are in a group who has the same beliefs as yourself). 2) Get a third-party to talk with your brother. You yourself cannot determine whether or not he is really suicidal. That's because you are emotionally close to him and you would see his suffering as your suffering too. Since you don't want to suffer you will ignore his suffering. Bringing in a third-party (e.g. Psychiatrist) will give you a non-biased answer as to whether or not your brother really needs help or not.

Good Luck!

[MikeM32]

My mother poked fun at suicide as being for cowards and I believe she was right. Sorry if that seems cold or harsh to some here, but I think enough times hearing that sort of message and it got through.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't take the suicidal person seriously, but like myself I think I was crying out for something more, and my mom basically just said "grow the F-up" or "get used to it" and I did.

I can't say I love life all the time, but I'd rather walk amongst the living while I can and enjoy those things that "living" offers.

I mean I'm never gonna bang that hot brunette of my fantasies if I'm dead am I?

Mike

[rob5243]

I think i'm a manic depressive. One day i'll be pretty happy, the next i'll be suicidal. I've thought about it a few times, but I could never actually do it. I'm too afraid to die.

Things to do today:

1) Survive


that's how i live. you hope, and eventually, something better usually comes along. then everything is okay.

[juanvaldes]

First, I also think you should get help...

Originally posted by sealobo:
<STRONG>Tell me some good things about life so i can tell him to live on.</STRONG>

.........
.........
.........
.........
...

I was going to list over possible thing in the world that is great. But I don't have the vocabulary to express how great life is...all I know is when I was like him nothing anyone could say would have mattered.

Seek professional help.

[panther]

Originally posted by sealobo:
<STRONG>"Life is suffer and it's a good idea to end it ASAP."

I quote that from my brother. It was a serious topic, lasted for the whole day.

Tell me some good things about life so i can tell him to live on.</STRONG>

Get help immediately. 1. Get him onto Zoloft or other anti-depressant. 2. Get him in to counciling 3. Get him straight 4. Get him off of Zoloft.

Good luck!

[�]

"LIFE IS SUFFER and you must kill yourself" and he will be the living advocate of that opinion. Smart fellow eh?

If I were to tell my brother stupid things like that, I would be the biggest bum in the world. What a loser. Forget about that brother, he sucks.

[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: � ]

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by sealobo:
<STRONG>"Life is suffer and it's a good idea to end it ASAP."

I quote that from my brother. It was a serious topic, lasted for the whole day.

Tell me some good things about life so i can tell him to live on.</STRONG>

The line I always end with (my ex gf is suicidal [no jokes necessary ], and I'm always the person people go to for advice and therapy... heh) is this:

"Never stop walking before you see whats around the next corner. For all you know, the day after you kill yourself, everything might have gotten better."

It messes with people enough that they don't do it, or at least put it off long enough for the depression to subside to reasonable levels.

[dav]

when you first mentioned life is suffering i immediately thought buddhism as well. couldn't hurt him to investigate a little eastern philosophy.

what is good about life? it's my personal belief that human beings are unique in their ability to appreciate/create beauty and art, and to love, not just for convenience, but for passion. there is where i find the good about life.

[crawlingparanoia]

This could be depression. It's definitely worth getting checked out, especially if he's suicidal.