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About Hinson believing in something..
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L'enfanTerrible
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Oct 9, 2002, 07:28 AM
 
Great post Hinson. If I could sum up the message from your post that I thought was most important it would be that: You believe your worldview, the Christian worldview, but you also acknowledge the fact that some people have a different worldview. And theirs is also as correct as yours. That's great, that sort of confidence and acknowledgment leads to tolerance. I like it.

I was shocked into rejecting the religion of Christianity one day---and although I do not like the religion, I do still value some of the principles of it, and the concepts that it is based on---because I saw three religious men on Larry King Live. This was a few years ago. There was a Christian minister (I believe??) a Jewish Rabbi (sp?) and I believe a Catholic priest. What shocked me was when the Christian person said flat out that only the devout Christians who believed in Jesus as the Lord and saviour would go to Heaven and everyone else would be damned. When confronted by the Rabbi--who basically said what you have said (why can there not be two different world views that are both justified?)--- the Christian said there is no possibility of other viewpoints, he is correct, and anyone who doesn't agree with him will be damned to Hell..

I had had just about enough at that point.

Why has the concept of reward and punishment been so omnipresent in the message of Christianity? My personal belief is this. Heaven, or a state of lucidity and happiness, is a state of mind that we as a sentient, intelligent being can reach on Earth. It has nothing to do with death and salvation. It is a mindframe of happiness as you travel through this life. I believe that the fundamentals of Christianity, such as labor and humility, tolerance and compassion can lead you to a life of satisfaction and self-accomplishment. In this world, you can do anything, if you let go of the restrictions that we are brought up to believe are in place and break down any walls to the furtherance of human understanding. Ex, any young person in the ghetto can make it out if they believe strongly that they can, and work hard.

That said, I believe death is not a passageway into another afterlife--where at you would be judged for your life on Earth and directed to your place of eternal happiness or eternal damnation--but it is a transition from one life into another life, where your body is returned to the Earth from which it was created, and your eternal soul will give life to another being in this physical realm. In other words, I suppose I believe in reincarnation, but it is better described as an ongoing cycle. I think it's different than reincarnation because I don't neccessarily believe that our memories and experiences get passed on.

Anyway, I know that was a lot of stuff you probably didn't want to read, but thanks for reading it this far

There is one glaring contradiction in your message that I feel needs to be pointed out.

You stated, a few times, the fact that our Creator is a sovereign being with perfect knowledge and will. Some quotes:

Hinson said:

A truly sovereign creator of all things by right defines what is good and evil, right and wrong, real and unreal. The God of the Bible knows all that every choice you make will ever bring and how every life will impact everything else. We cannot truly fathom such knowledge. Further, He also wants what is ultimately best for us, but because He has given us a truly free will of our own, He doesn't use us as puppets but can effect events around us to bring about His perfect will. That will is perfect because He is sovereign. He has the right to bring His will about, and it is by definition good and best because He is sovereign. In order to accept this world-view, you must accept that we have no right to question a sovereign God, but we must have faith that He truly does want what's best for us even if we don't understand it.
Hinson said:

In the end, I believe it is your own personal convictions that lead you to reject Christianity based on the fact that, if it is true, then it does not grant you the ability to understand all of God's actions and yet because its God is sovereign, you cannot question His will but must put faith in his perfect goodness.
The contradiction is here. If we are sovereign creatures with free will, and not puppets that dance according to everything in God's ultimate plan, then we are capable of making the wrong decisions. In my opinion, the choice of lifestyle we as humans are leading at the moment is not in God's--to assume for a moment that there is a God--ultimate plan, and is a mistake.

If God is also a sovereign being, why then is He infallable? How could the will of God be perfect if He has free will?

I'd like to state that I do not believe that God is fallable, but rather that our concept of a God as a sovereign being with free-will is misguided. We do not comprehend what fabric the ultimate being in the universe is made of and what form He (or She ) would take, but I think that, as individual sentient beings with spirit, we are all cut from that fabric, and we are at all moments of our lives, connected with that fabric.

All that said, I believe that such a ridged belief that God's will is perfect is a hinderance to the furtherance of human understanding and enlightenment. Food for thought.

Go for it.
     
Chuckmcd
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Oct 9, 2002, 10:17 AM
 
Originally posted by L'enfanTerrible:
Great post Hinson. If I could sum up the message from your post that I thought was most important it would be that: You believe your worldview, the Christian worldview, but you also acknowledge the fact that some people have a different worldview. And theirs is also as correct as yours. That's great, that sort of confidence and acknowledgment leads to tolerance. I like it.
I can't speak for Hinson... I don't know him well.. but I think you missed his point, or I did

He's acknowledged that other world-views are internally consistent, and therefore reasonable and logical, but only one can be right.

Originally posted by Hinson:
Further, there are many other self-consistent world-views that are contradictory to parts of the Christian world-view such that logically, no two of these world-views can both be true (because the combination would produce self-contradiction). This leaves us humans with one basic question: which world-view are we going to use even though logic and reason alone CANNOT tell us which is better (because they are all self consistent)?
Other world-views make simular claims... Conservative jewish rabbis being among them. That said the emphasis of Christianity is placed on the salvation it provides through the love of God in Christ. There are hall-fire and brimstone preachers, and they probably get more air time than your average Christian preacher because, as I've said before, the extremes in any arguement are the ones people pay attention to.

Originally posted by L'enfanTerrible:
All that said, I believe that such a ridged belief that God's will is perfect is a hinderance to the furtherance of human understanding and enlightenment. Food for thought.

Go for it.
In the Christian faith God's will can be nothing less than perfect. It would seem that you are trying to wrap you presuppostions in with Christianity and come out on the other side with something everyone can agree on. The God of the Bible is infinit, transcendent and immenent all at the same time. It is for His will that the world exists and that we exists, He claims to have plans for us and purposes for us that are all for our good and our fortune... our free will enables us to break from that will He has for us and make our own path, which (as the Bible teaches) always leads to destruction.

I think Hinson's post was very tolerant in that he thinks he's right, but he admits that his decision is based on faith... furthermore there are other options that logically and reasonably could be right and you're chosing them is you choice and your welcome to adhere to whichever you like. I think that is the tolerance we need, I think I'm right, your welcome to decide otherwise and I won't rub it in your face that I think you're wrong. I think to try and combine these worldviews into one big picture so that we can all get along and agree is cheapening each of the world-views. There are things in Christianity that are appauling to people of other faiths, why should they have to say it's okay if they feel it's wrong? the trick is a bunch of people want to force others to their world-view... this is not evangelsim! evangelism is telling someone this is my world-view, does it make sense to you? would you like to sign on?

Just my thoughts... any others?
     
Sealobo
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Oct 9, 2002, 01:39 PM
 
Things are getting so complicated.

If there existed no such thing as religion, then the human race would have had much less conflict. At less they wouldn't fight for something that they can't possibly prove.

They are all silly.
     
   
 
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