[L'enfanTerrible]

To start, I want to say that I'm not starting this to get any arguments started or to bash Christians at all. I read the above quote in another thread and I want to have a discussion about it. It's a very interesting phrase.

It's obviously a juxtaposition of two frames of mind.

To love the sinner, in the context of this phrase, means to love everyone, because everyone is a sinner. It means you shouldn't hate anyone no matter what they do. Always forgive. This is a great moral to have if taken by itself. But I believe it becomes a slippery slope when you add the second half of the phrase, thus turning it into a model for behaviour based on the laws that are set down by the scriptures. I think to grasp it I, personally, have to refine a good definition of what sin is, which is really why I started this thread.

Now, by definition, I don't mean I want a list of everything that is considered a sin: murder; adultery, etc. I mean, what is sin? Is it "a behaviour or action that would be looked down upon by god"?

If that is the definition, then how can you be certain what God would think of a certain action? Murder is carried out daily by police officers, and it is widespread in times of war. Is that to say that sometimes sin is justified?

Food for thought. Would anyone like to discuss?

[jcadam]

I once heard a preacher define sin as "Anything that harms your relationship with God."

What does the above statement mean? Dunno, perhaps it ties in with "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Thus, if anything in your life becomes more important to you than God, such as money, sex, power, macintosh computers, etc., then it is sin. None of the above things are in and of themsevles evil, but they can be if you allow them to become the predominant preoccupations of your life and use them 'improperly'.

Things/Actions which God explicity forbids in the Bible (sex with dolphins , etc.) would be sin because you are knowingly going against God's will, which should be more important to you.

[L'enfanTerrible]

Originally posted by jcadam:
I once heard a preacher define sin as "Anything that harms your relationship with God."

What does the above statement mean? Dunno, perhaps it ties in with "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Thus, if anything in your life becomes more important to you than God, such as money, sex, power, macintosh computers, etc., then it is sin. None of the above things are in and of themsevles evil, but they can be if you allow them to become the predominant preoccupations of your life and use them 'improperly'.

Things/Actions which God explicity forbids in the Bible (sex with dolphins , etc.) would be sin because you are knowingly going against God's will, which should be more important to you.

I like this. "Anything that harms your relationship with God". I like it because it is not totally one sided, in fact, you could use this as a model, even if you didn't believe in a single creator king.

My personal beliefs run along the lines of Animism, so for me, it would read "Anything that harms your knowledge of yourself (personal understanding) and disrupts your relationship with the environment and people around you"

I totally understand how money, sex, power etc, can corrupt you. They might not be evil per se, but I think all three of those things, if not properly understood, can lead to heart ache and bad feelings, envy, greed and other deadly sins.

Okay, so we have a definition. Thats one step further than I was before, and thats always good.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by jcadam:
I once heard a preacher define sin as "Anything that harms your relationship with God."

What does the above statement mean? Dunno, perhaps it ties in with "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Thus, if anything in your life becomes more important to you than God, such as money, sex, power, macintosh computers, etc., then it is sin. None of the above things are in and of themsevles evil, but they can be if you allow them to become the predominant preoccupations of your life and use them 'improperly'.

Things/Actions which God explicity forbids in the Bible (sex with dolphins , etc.) would be sin because you are knowingly going against God's will, which should be more important to you.

Shh you are making sense!

[Millennium]

Originally posted by jcadam:
I once heard a preacher define sin as "Anything that harms your relationship with God."

You know something? I think that's quite possibly the best general definition of sin that I've ever heard. I say general definition because it doesn't go into specifics, but then, neither does the word "sin", so it's a great match.

It also allows for a better definition of the phrase "to sin against another person". Why is it wrong to cheat on your spouse? Because it harms your relationship with her (or him, as the case may be). Why is it wrong to steal from some random person across the street? Same thing; your relationship with that person has been harmed, moving from a state of non-acquaintedness (is that even a word?) to a state of animosity. And it's even possible to sin against oneself; intentionally breaking one's own moral code does this, because it harms one's own self-image.

Yeah. You know, that's really something. Dude, I think we may have just come up with the most productive religious thread yet.

Thanks. I can't say I've picked up much from the other threads, but this one has really had a positive impact on me. At least, as of this writing. It'll probably descend into another flamewar eventually, but I really hope not. It would be a real shame.

[Buck_Naked]

Bash Xians...... I would never.
but this is food for thought.

[Chuckmcd]

Originally posted by L'enfanTerrible:
Food for thought. Would anyone like to discuss?

I like the idea of sin being anything that harms your relationship with God, but I think there's more to it than that. THe idea of "sin" changed somewhat between the OT and the NT. In the OT it was the breaking of the law, whereas the Greek word in the NT (from my understanding and study) invoked a work picture of a archer missing the target... ie. missing the mark, and falling short of God. The idea that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" is good example of this. In sinning we haven't done one thing as opposed to another, but we've fallen short of what God created us to be. In doing that it harms our relationship with God.

The misconception most people seem to have with Christians is that they think we condemn people for breaking rules. The religion has little to do with any rule, but about building a relationship with the creator. It's that relationship, or lack thereof, that bring with it all the blessings or consequences... not the following of rules. I heard someone once say (in talking about their kids) that rules without a relationship will bring rebellion. The inverse being true, a relationship with someone brings them to want to stay in good standing so to speak. For instance, when I've been very busy and haven't had the time to spend with my kids, they're not very mindful of what I say. I haven't invested the time in a relationship with them. I think the same is true with God.

good thread btw.

[Sven G]

(A semi-serious allegory...)

"Sin" is like a sinusoid: goes up and down indefinitely around the zero line, with "positive" and "negative" values (some see it the "up" way, others the "down" way) - but it's average value is, indeed, zero: so, in the context of infinity, sin doesn't exist!

Mathematically... lim (t ---> 0) sin t / t = 1, lim (t ---> infinity) sin t / t = 0: in the beginning, the "relative" Sin was One, but as time progresses it will disappear!

(OK - I'm approaching 666 posts... )

[Zimphire]

Sin has been around forever, I don't see it going anywhere soon.

[V]

Could the use of Smilies be a Sin, or at least forbidden?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by V:
Could the use of Smilies be a Sin, or at least forbidden?

Hmm maybe only the Bukkake smile



Yes, I know, I am going to hell for that.

[finboy]

Why, not only is that smilie tasteful, it's educational as well.