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BRussell · Oct 3, 2008, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

Notable moments for me:

• Palin having a Cartman like moment ("Whatever! I'll do what I want!") regarding being forthright in the debate.
• Biden's soul-sucking sighs, though he did do a nice job of introducing some unintentional comedy when he capped them by turning on his "I'm enjoying a 12" Turd Sandwich" level ****-eating grin.
• Biden, correcting himself when he said a word correctly, only to recorrect himself. I thought the wheels were coming off at that point. (They didn't though)
• Biden, trying to play the Bush card far, far too often.
• The moment where Palin paused for two seconds to recall the soundbyte/phrase the McCain campaign gave her to rebut Biden on some particular issue. The level of "contrivity" for the moment was scale rocking, even in respect tot he rest of her statements.
• Palin mentioning her love of unfiltered access without a trace of irony.

As far as performance quality, I thought this was a mirror of the McCain/Obama debate, with Biden as McCain and Palin Obama. I thought Palin knocked it out of the park to start, but starting running out of steam by half-way through, while Biden looked shaky early on, but got his legs under him after a while.

-----

Honestly, from my side of political spectrum, I thought the most mind-blowing statement of the night was when Biden dropped the bomb on where he and Obama stood on gay marriage. Not only was as succinct and straight-forward as you'll ever hear from a politician, but it fell in lock and step with the right-wing line. If I were a conservative, I'd have gotten a wry smile from this. It's obvious somewhere in the heart of the Democratic party, some people blame the 04 loss to the anti-gay marriage voter mobilization, and are scared to death it could happen again.

A fine recap, and I agree.

I also had a little shock when Biden gave such a supportive, unusually non-weasely (for a Democrat) statement about gay rights. But then Palin said she agreed with everything "that Joe said there dontchaknow now," and I was even more shocked. Does the Republican ticket really have the position that gay partnerships should have all the same rights as straight marriage with the exception of the name 'marriage?'

Dakar V · Oct 3, 2008, 10:35 AM

If they do, thank god for progress.

All in 4 (or 8 depending on your view) years.

stupendousman · Oct 3, 2008, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

She because she didn't eff up during a well-choreographed event doesn't make her qualified.
IMO it's still an indication of McCain's character to choose someone who isn't nearly as qualified as other potential running mates, because her `story' is more important than her `qualification'.

You just succinctly illustrated exactly why so many people have a problem with the Democrat's choice at the top of their ticket. Change the "she" to "he" and "McCain" to "the Democrats" and you've got it.

Thanks.

BRussell · Oct 3, 2008, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by stupendousman

You just succinctly illustrated exactly why so many people have a problem with the Democrat's choice at the top of their ticket. Change the "she" to "he" and "McCain" to "the Democrats" and you've got it.

Thanks.

Apparently a lot fewer people have a problem with the Democrats' choice at the top of their ticket than the Republicans' choice at the top of theirs.

Landslide: Obama 353, McCain 185.

smacintush · Oct 3, 2008, 11:01 AM

I thought she did fine. She did what anyone would need to do who is in her position as someone with an obvious experience deficit in reference to her opponent. Connect with people, try to give an overall impression of your philosophy and hammer at those talking points. (it IS amazing he she gets so many comments about talking points when Senator Hairplugs led with talking point right off the bat and stayed on them most of the debate.)

I AM biased, duh. I am somewhat rooting for her and I highly resent all the personal crap that people have been trying to throw at her. (mostly at the beginning) At the same time, I don't like Biden. I don't like his politics, I don't like the way he looks and I don't like his personality. I don't trust him. I'm not voting for either of these clowns and I still wanted Senator Athletes-mouth to lose and Governor I'dhitit to win. (the debate)

And…call me cynical, call me a jerk, but I don't believe for ONE SINGLE SECOND that he genuinely got "choked up". As horrible as that event was it was THIRTY SIX YEARS AGO and he has talked about it publicly over and over again. Including repeating the LIE that the accident was caused by a drunk driver. He had no more genuine emotion there than I did when he said it.

Chongo · Oct 3, 2008, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by OAW

OMG! "I'd like to thank the Commission for allowing me to speak directly to the American people without the filter of the mainstream media"? No dear. There was no filter in your recent interviews. You came off as incoherent all on your own in those interviews. I certainly disagree with her and McCain on the issues. However, she came across as very intelligent and articulate this evening. I'll grant her that. She didn't seem nowhere near as informed on the issues as Biden ... but that's another topic. But she really did herself a disservice by trying to play the "mainstream media" card because it in no way explains away her dismal performance in her recent interviews.

OAW

What we saw, in both the Gibson and Couric interviews, was about 15 minutes of what was two hours spent with each. We saw what ABC and CBS wanted us to see.

olePigeon · Oct 3, 2008, 11:58 AM

Palin only supports Gay Rights because she believes you can "cure" homosexuality by praying.

Uncle Skeleton · Oct 3, 2008, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

i still wanted senator athletes-mouth to lose and governor i'dhitit to win. (the debate)

lol

andi*pandi · Oct 3, 2008, 12:40 PM

Dear Sarah:

Congrats on forming complete sentences without John there to hold your hand. However, a few pointers should you ever debate again:

1) I don't believe winking at the audience is appropriate debate behavior. Stop it.

2) when at a debate, you answer the question. You're not a maverick for saying you will ignore the moderator's question and don't have to answer. Really.

SpaceMonkey · Oct 3, 2008, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

Dear Sarah:

Congrats on forming complete sentences without John there to hold your hand. However, a few pointers should you ever debate again:

1) I don't believe winking at the audience is appropriate debate behavior. Stop it.

2) when at a debate, you answer the question. You're not a maverick for saying you will ignore the moderator's question and don't have to answer. Really.

It's clear that you're just another Washington insider.

BRussell · Oct 3, 2008, 12:54 PM

She formed complete sentences? It seemed like a blur of barely-strung-together words and winks and "dontchaknow there" to me.

smacintush · Oct 3, 2008, 01:15 PM

I find it amusing that a lawyer, 35 year senator, and a chairman of the judiciary committee doesn't understand the role of the VP or which article covers it.

He DID form complete sentences, too bad so many of them were also blatant and deliberate lies.

stupendousman · Oct 3, 2008, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

Apparently a lot fewer people have a problem with the Democrats' choice at the top of their ticket than the Republicans' choice at the top of theirs.

That's the same map that just about week ago showed a 6 point difference. I'd bet in a week it will show something different.

You do know that the pollsters are now altering their polls to give more representation to Democrats now? Why? No body seems to know, unless it's simply to distort the polls. The difference between the way they did it a week or so ago (when McCain was ahead) and now makes it still an even race.

Cooking with AP: Polls Radically Change Party Mix to Fabricate an Obama Trend | NewsBusters.org
WaPo Ignores Its Own Poll Showing McCain Gain, Focuses on Palin Allegedly ‘Dragging Down’ GOP Ticket | NewsBusters.org

Originally Posted by Chongo

What we saw, in both the Gibson and Couric interviews, was about 15 minutes of what was two hours spent with each. We saw what ABC and CBS wanted us to see.

Precisely. Howzabout we go back in time and have only the 15 minitues of the debate that Shawn Hannity would want to publicize be the only glimpse a prime-time viewing audience has into debates. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too tough to make it look like Biden was a lying idiot. Editing most certainly IS a "filter".

tie · Oct 3, 2008, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

Does the Republican ticket really have the position that gay partnerships should have all the same rights as straight marriage with the exception of the name 'marriage?'

I don't think so. But they are happy to spread that impression to the right audiences.

A funny spot on the Daily Show during the Republican convention was on what Palin's "small-town" values concretely meant. All of the delegates interviewed said that it meant being against gay rights.

Dork. · Oct 3, 2008, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

I find it amusing that a lawyer, 35 year senator, and a chairman of the judiciary committee doesn't understand the role of the VP or which article covers it.

He DID form complete sentences, too bad so many of them were also blatant and deliberate lies.

Heh, I totally missed that. You made me go back and find a transcript to see what it is that he said.

Aside from the fact that he got the relevant article wrong, though, what was wrong with his interpretation of the role of the Vice President?

smacintush · Oct 3, 2008, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Dork.

Heh, I totally missed that. You made me go back and find a transcript to see what it is that he said.

Aside from the fact that he got the relevant article wrong, though, what was wrong with his interpretation of the role of the Vice President?

He characterized it as only being involved when there is a tie.

The VP is always has the role of presiding over the senate, though few actually exercise that role outside of tie-breaking.

Yeah I know, small point, but he emphasized it so deliberately.

OAW · Oct 3, 2008, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by stupendousman

Wrong. The media IS the filter. Her last 2 interviews where she faced an antagonistic TV personality looking for a "gotcha" pop quiz flub, while in at least one case (probably the other a well) editing the interview in order to create a dishonest spin on a question, was most definitely a "filter" to her beliefs. They weren't interviews. They were not the kind of discussions that Biden has ever had to face on Prime Time. When has he been in Prime Time defending his ties to lobbyists? When has he had to talk about his long-term problem with plagiarism? When has he been grilled on controversial issues in the same way Palin has?

Please point out where the McCain campaign has accused CBS of editing the footage of Palin to "create a dishonest spin on a question". Sure ... they stooped to a new low and accused them of leaving her supposed "good moments on the editing room floor". But where did they accuse CBS of taking "good moments" and editing the footage to make them appear to be "bad moments". The answers she gave were simply incoherent. She showed a total lack of poise when she couldn't rely on her cue cards full of her talking points.

The presence of her cue cards was quite obvious in the debate. Hence, the dramatically different outcome. Speaking of which, the following is making its way around the web. Pure comedy ... yet, disturbingly accurate.

OAW

BRussell · Oct 3, 2008, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

He characterized it as only being involved when there is a tie.

The VP is always has the role of presiding over the senate, though few actually exercise that role outside of tie-breaking.

Yeah I know, small point, but he emphasized it so deliberately.

Article I says "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided." Yes, Biden's statement was mangled, but I don't think he was wrong about only voting to break a tie.

smacintush · Oct 3, 2008, 02:00 PM

OAW,

I guess you missed Obama constantly checking his notes during his debate with McCain huh?

smacintush · Oct 3, 2008, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by BRussell

Article I says "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided." Yes, Biden's statement was mangled, but I don't think he was wrong about only voting to break a tie.

No, he was wrong to state that when there is a tie is the ONLY time the VP has any role there. In reality he always has the right to preside over the senate. Like I said, small point…

OAW · Oct 3, 2008, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

No, he was wrong to state that when there is a tie is the ONLY time the VP has any role there. In reality he always has the right to preside over the senate. Like I said, small point…

Since we are "quibbling", what role does being "President of the Senate" entail other than breaking a tie vote? That is, what else is there in the "job description" so to speak? It's a ceremonial post with absolutely no power or authority other than to break a tie. I guess he could call the Senate to order and hold the gavel ... but the reality is that most Senate business isn't conducted in the chamber itself.

The crux of Biden's point was correct. The VP is in the Executive branch. Cheney tried to make that VP is in the Legislative Branch argument in order to avoid having any oversight over his activities. It was a bogus argument and Biden rightly called him on it.

OAW

stupendousman · Oct 3, 2008, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by OAW

Please point out where the McCain campaign has accused CBS of editing the footage of Palin to "create a dishonest spin on a question".

They haven't. They didn't accuse ABC of it either...until evidence was presented that they indeed had edited the broadcast in a way that deceptively portrayed Palin's views on religion falsely. Again, that sort of thing is a "filter". They know that the networks will edit the interviews to suit their own purposes. Unless you can SHOW deliberate deception (as there was with ABC's interview), you've just got to suck it up.

The presence of her cue cards was quite obvious in the debate. Hence, the dramatically different outcome.

Yeah, same with that other inexperienced debater Obama. We know.

OAW · Oct 3, 2008, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

OAW,

I guess you missed Obama constantly checking his notes during his debate with McCain huh?

No I didn't. Nor did I miss Biden. See ... here's the point.

There is nothing wrong with having notes when giving a speech or even when engaging in a nationally televised debate. People do it all the time in all kinds of settings. Not just politics.

The problem is that in the political arena, one should have enough familiarity and understanding of the issues to be able to function and speak knowledgeably and articulately on them when cue cards are not available. IOW, cue cards are an AID .... not a CRUTCH.

IMO, they seem to be a crutch for Palin .... because she has yet to demonstrate any ability to function intelligibly without them. Quite unlike Biden and Obama.

OAW

smacintush · Oct 3, 2008, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by OAW

Since we are "quibbling", what role does being "President of the Senate" entail other than breaking a tie vote? That is, what else is there in the "job description" so to speak? It's a ceremonial post with absolutely no power or authority other than to break a tie. I guess he could call the Senate to order and hold the gavel ... but the reality is that most Senate business isn't conducted in the chamber itself.

Yes, it's mostly procedural but it was SUPPOSED to be a primary function for the VP to preside over the senate on a day to day basis. That changed…unofficially…by VP Nixon.

(edit: fixed a minor factual error there…)

spacefreak · Oct 3, 2008, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by OAW

IMO, they seem to be a crutch for Palin .... because she has yet to demonstrate any ability to function intelligibly without them. Quite unlike Biden and Obama.

Cruise around YouTube. There are more than a few videos of Obama off teleprompter, and he's a bumbling mess. Not to mention that Obama's most commonly used word is "Uh".

"What I think uh, uh, is that, uh, uh we need to uh, develop a framework, uh, um, that carefully uh, uh, reflects the need uh, uh, to put the politics of the past, uh, uh, behind us."

Wiskedjak · Oct 3, 2008, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

It's obvious somewhere in the heart of the Democratic party, some people blame the 04 loss to the anti-gay marriage voter mobilization, and are scared to death it could happen again.

And this is as it should be for any political party. Politicians shouldn't be trying to mold voters to their positions; they should be molding themselves to represent the interests of their voters.

Dakar V · Oct 3, 2008, 03:14 PM

My point is the statement was made primarily out of fear.

sek929 · Oct 3, 2008, 03:17 PM

Yet another Republican that can't pronounce "Nuclear."

Other than that it was a bore-fest, though I was amused when Sarah Palin wouldn't stop bringing up Isreal for no apparent reason.

BRussell · Oct 3, 2008, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

And this is as it should be for any political party. Politicians shouldn't be trying to mold voters to their positions; they should be molding themselves to represent the interests of their voters.

Eh? What if people's opinions are divided? Or if they vary wildly depending on how a pollster asks the question? Or if they're internally inconsistent? I'd prefer politicians who study issues and take positions that they feel are right, even if their constituents disagree with them.

smacintush · Oct 3, 2008, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by sek929

Yet another Republican that can't pronounce "Nuclear."

sek929 · Oct 3, 2008, 03:46 PM

Heaven forbid the second-in-line for our country be held to the same amount of grammar and pronunciation correction most people do on this forum.

When you say "nucular" a dozen times on national TV you look like a retard, end of story.

It's to bad, McCain might have gotten my vote if it wasn't for this idiot twit of a running mate he picked.

smacintush · 03:57 PM

Clinton did it half the time, did you whine about that too?

There IS a legitimate reason for people to pick up this habit and it has nothing to do with being a retard, or a redneck, or any other stupid stereotypical crap.

smacintush · Oct 3, 2008, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by sek929

It's to bad, McCain might have gotten my vote if it wasn't for this idiot twit of a running mate he picked.

Rrrrrrrrriiiiiiigggghhhhtt…

OAW · Oct 3, 2008, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by spacefreak

Cruise around YouTube. There are more than a few videos of Obama off teleprompter, and he's a bumbling mess. Not to mention that Obama's most commonly used word is "Uh".

"What I think uh, uh, is that, uh, uh we need to uh, develop a framework, uh, um, that carefully uh, uh, reflects the need uh, uh, to put the politics of the past, uh, uh, behind us."

I'm quite aware of the videos of which you speak. To even remotely compare this to Palin's interviews is quite the stretch. There are times when Obama answers questions he is very measured and careful with what he says. And yes, he often says "uh" while he is considering how to best phrase his response. This can admittedly be a bit distracting. But at least the answer is actually comprehensible ... and it shows that he understands the issue (even if you disagree with his position). Palin's interviews? Not so much.

OAW

Dakar V · Oct 3, 2008, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

Rrrrrrrrriiiiiiigggghhhhtt…

Man, I can't wait til the election passes and you return to normal.

smacintush · Oct 3, 2008, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

Man, I can't wait til the election passes and you return to normal.

Dakar V · Oct 3, 2008, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

You're a good guy smac, but I think you've let the election season partisan posting get under your skin. IMO, you don't usually post like you've been the last week.

Sayf-Allah · Oct 3, 2008, 04:16 PM

The debates need someone like this to moderate them:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sCo7qbzEX3c

Sayf-Allah · Oct 3, 2008, 04:20 PM

Uncle Skeleton · Oct 3, 2008, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

http://weblog.sinteur.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/2909496470_d751e8a3dc.jpg

fail.

tie · Oct 3, 2008, 05:52 PM

Okay, I haven't watched the VP debate yet. Worth seeing?

Uncle Skeleton · Oct 3, 2008, 06:59 PM

I would say no.

ebuddy · Oct 3, 2008, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by OAW

Since we are "quibbling", what role does being "President of the Senate" entail other than breaking a tie vote? That is, what else is there in the "job description" so to speak? It's a ceremonial post with absolutely no power or authority other than to break a tie.

Oh well shxx then, Palin's perfect for the job!

The crux of Biden's point was correct. The VP is in the Executive branch. Cheney tried to make that VP is in the Legislative Branch argument in order to avoid having any oversight over his activities. It was a bogus argument and Biden rightly called him on it.

I like how he called Cheney dangerous. No examples to speak of and no examples of how he's attempted to slay this evil dragon the past 8 years. As hollow as it gets. I always know when there's a stretch from the sound of "the crux of Biden's point was...".

ebuddy · Oct 3, 2008, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

I would say no.

agreed.

villalobos · Oct 3, 2008, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by ebuddy

agreed.

unless you enjoy Palin's mumbo jumbo, winks and folksiness that is.

It is amusing to see posters here with what seems to be a fairly well developed intellect stick so much to the partisan line as to defend her as a legitimate VP candidate.

stupendousman · Oct 3, 2008, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by villalobos

unless you enjoy Palin's mumbo jumbo, winks and folksiness that is.

You could choose to watch for Joe's mangling of basic history and his lack of knowledge on his own running mate's record. That was fun.

It is amusing to see posters here with what seems to be a fairly well developed intellect stick so much to the partisan line as to defend her as a legitimate VP candidate.

We've heard it in defense of Obama for months now. We've got the routine pretty well memorized.

lpkmckenna · Oct 3, 2008, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by OldManMac

He hasn't commanded anything, and his POW experience may be quite a bit different than he explains it.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/cov...l_john_mccain/

Gee, anyone else here think this swift-boating article is rather conveniently timed? They've probably been sitting on it for months.

Originally Posted by stupendousman

Her last 2 interviews where she faced an antagonistic TV personality looking for a "gotcha" pop quiz flub, while in at least one case (probably the other a well) editing the interview in order to create a dishonest spin on a question, was most definitely a "filter" to her beliefs. They weren't interviews. They were not the kind of discussions that Biden has ever had to face on Prime Time. When has he been in Prime Time defending his ties to lobbyists? When has he had to talk about his long-term problem with plagiarism? When has he been grilled on controversial issues in the same way Palin has?

You're a sock-puppet, aren't you? [puts off the mask] OMFG, it's John McCain!

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I actually found Biden more likable for the same reason I find McCain more likable.

You're attracted to septuagenarians? I didn't need to know that.

lpkmckenna · Oct 3, 2008, 11:27 PM

Hilarious: Arianna Huffington on Sarah Palin.

"Palin came across as an over-wound windup doll, sporting a pasted-on-smile expression that never varied, except when she winked. Which she did repeatedly -- and pathetically. It was the folksiest appearance since Hee-Haw went off the air."

"The only subject on which Palin displayed superior knowledge was when she corrected Biden on the proper delivery of "Drill, baby, drill!" Christie Hefner thought Palin's sex-tinged twist on the chant should be appropriated for a commercial. Perhaps for Viagra."

"The home-spun homilies have to go," Martha Stewart told me. "And, oh my god, words do have ending consonants."

Perhaps the opinions of pornographers and ex-cons doesn't matter, but it was still funny.

sek929 · Oct 4, 2008, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

Rrrrrrrrriiiiiiigggghhhhtt…

It's the truth.

If I were you I'd make less snap judgments on the affiliations of people you don't have any info on.

I lean Democrat but I, in no way, endorse Obama. McCain is appealing to me sans his war stance but if he is idiotic enough to pick someone like Sarah Palin to be his running mate (and possibly successor) then he can kiss my vote goodbye.

Several of my friends feel the same way, not everyone under 30 is a bleeding heart liberal.

sek929 · Oct 4, 2008, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by smacintush

Clinton did it half the time, did you whine about that too?

I was in 5th grade when Clinton took office.

Originally Posted by smacintush

There IS a legitimate reason for people to pick up this habit and it has nothing to do with being a retard, or a redneck, or any other stupid stereotypical crap.

There is no legitimate reason for inventing words, let alone using them a half-dozen times on national television.