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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > Why can't I "cut" files?

Why can't I "cut" files?
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aeropl
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Sep 5, 2006, 06:08 PM
 
I have a huge frustration with my new Macbook running OS X 10.4. The cut command, as in cut, copy or pasting information, is disabled for files in Finder. It only works for plain text and in programs like Photoshop. Why is this and is there any way to enable it?
     
Chuckit
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Sep 5, 2006, 06:18 PM
 
You can't cut files. If you want to delete a file, drag it to the trash. If you want to move a file, drag it to the place you want it.
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parsec_kadets
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Sep 5, 2006, 06:33 PM
 
No, this can't be enabled. Doing a search will reveal many lenghty discussions on this topic.
     
Yakov
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Sep 5, 2006, 06:34 PM
 
for a good way to move files around, try the spring-loaded folders feature, or learn Quicksilver.
     
cla
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Sep 5, 2006, 06:37 PM
 
This might sound lame, but the reason is to protect you from yourself.
     
Philip J. Fry
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Sep 5, 2006, 08:56 PM
 
OnyX allows this now with the current version.
     
TheTraveller
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Sep 5, 2006, 09:25 PM
 
It's totally lame that you can't "cut" files out-of-the-box in OS X. Yeah, fine, to protect myself - but I really haven't screwed myself on Winblows by cutting files, and I can't see it happening in OS X, either - especially if the "Undo" command worked to un-do whatever ill came of cutting a file.

In Winblows, I use "cut" all the time and it's one thing I find really lacking in OS X.
     
tooki
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Sep 5, 2006, 10:10 PM
 
Please, look up the past discussion of it. The reason is that the whole cut-and-paste metaphor breaks when it comes to files. When you cut a file in Windows, the file is not removed, which is what the cut command does on every other type of content.

Apple is right.

tooki
     
aeropl  (op)
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Sep 5, 2006, 10:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by parsec_kadets
Doing a search will reveal many lenghty discussions on this topic.
Help me out... I search for "cut" and nothing comes up. Is there a minimum letter count for searches?


I just sent a feedback to apple letting them know that it would be nice if you could at least enable Cut in System Preferences.
     
monkeybrain
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Sep 6, 2006, 05:16 AM
 
Use copy and paste, not cut. Or drag and drop. You can drag and drop just about anything in OS X, even using Exposé at the same time and drilling through folders by holding the cursor over the folder during the drag operation.

For extensive discussion on cut and paste, see here: http://forums.macnn.com/90/mac-os-x/...cut-and-paste/
     
Big Mac
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Sep 6, 2006, 06:27 AM
 
deleted post
     
red rocket
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Sep 6, 2006, 06:38 AM
 
If you really have to have cut functionality (you shouldn't, expecting OS X to behave like Winblows is wrongâ„¢), there's this 5$ shareware contextual menu plugin that'll enable it.
     
TETENAL
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Sep 6, 2006, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by aeropl
I just sent a feedback to apple letting them know that it would be nice if you could at least enable Cut in System Preferences.
What's wrong with dragging your files?
     
Millennium
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Sep 6, 2006, 09:37 AM
 
Because it's a horrible interface metaphor. In order to really be accurate, the file would need to be deleted on disk as soon as the cut was enabled, and then written back to disk when pasted in. Obviously this is a usability nightmare, so instead Windows usea s half-baked pseudo-cut that should never have been implemented. It's inconsistent, and therefore has no place in a good GUI.
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voodoo
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Sep 6, 2006, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
It's inconsistent, and therefore has no place in a good GUI.
Thus it is right at home in Windows

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OAW
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Sep 6, 2006, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Philip J. Fry
OnyX allows this now with the current version.
Not really. All this seems to do is put the file in the Trash. Definitely not the expected behavior given how this works in Windows.

OAW
     
mac128k-1984
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Sep 6, 2006, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
Because it's a horrible interface metaphor. In order to really be accurate, the file would need to be deleted on disk as soon as the cut was enabled, and then written back to disk when pasted in.
I think you guys are really failing to see the forest through the trees.

Regardless of whether cut/pasting a file is bad metaphor, you fail to see the usability of it.

In windows, I find it very convenient to cut a file and then paste it where I want it. Yes the file isn't deleted until its been pasted but that too is a good thing. I wish apple had done the same
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Sep 6, 2006, 01:12 PM
 
Noone is failing to see the usuablity. Search those old threads - the problem is that Cut does not work like Cut for a text string does. I've suggested before that Apple name the commands "Pick up file" and "Put down file" (preferably with the pointer changing to show the file Icon being held, to make it more obvious what you're doing) - that would make its inclusion fine by me. In the meantime, I'll keep doing what I've done since Finder 1.13 (Yes, I'm that old) - open both starting and ending location windows before dragging anything.

Copy & Paste don't really work either, since they don't modify the clipboard - what you copied in the Finder cannot be pasted in Mail, but what you copied in Safari before that is pasted instead - but it's closer.
     
cla
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Sep 6, 2006, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by mac128k-1984
Regardless of whether cut/pasting a file is bad metaphor, you fail to see the usability of it.
The usefulness. Surely there are ways of implementing cut/paste so that it becomes user-friendly, but neither MS nor Apple did. Drag and drop forces the user into semi-mode. That's nice.

If it really is that important to be able to hold on to an object without enforcing it with an immediate action, one could for instance play with the thought of relabelling the caps lock key "pickup/drop". The user would get a cue (the light, when lit positioned do emphasize the word "drop") once an object was picked up. The light would constantly glow while "held". When the user presses the key again, the item would be dropped and the light would go out.

But then again, it is kind of convenient to copy/cut an object and paste it several times afterwards...
     
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Sep 6, 2006, 03:00 PM
 
     
Yakov
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Sep 6, 2006, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
It's inconsistent, and therefore has no place in a good GUI.
Yes, we all know how strong the Mac is with regards to interface consistency. That's why all the windows and buttons look the same across the OS and iApps!
     
Chuckit
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Sep 6, 2006, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Yakov
Yes, we all know how strong the Mac is with regards to interface consistency. That's why all the windows and buttons look the same across the OS and iApps!
Yes, minor theme variations are totally the same as having the same menu item do completely different things in different apps.
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parsec_kadets
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Sep 6, 2006, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by mac128k-1984
I think you guys are really failing to see the forest through the trees.

Regardless of whether cut/pasting a file is bad metaphor, you fail to see the usability of it.

In windows, I find it very convenient to cut a file and then paste it where I want it. Yes the file isn't deleted until its been pasted but that too is a good thing. I wish apple had done the same
What I fail to see is why we have to get into a big argument over this every other month.
     
Axel
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Sep 6, 2006, 07:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Yes, minor theme variations are totally the same as having the same menu item do completely different things in different apps.
Now that's something I don't get. What do questions of "menu item consistency" and "file metaphor" have to do with actual user experience ? Are there really lots of people caring that the "Cut" command doesn't actually erase the file before one decides to paste it ? Bottom line is : it gets the job done.
At the end of the day, computers are made to do actual stuff, not to stare at interface metaphors.

Just my 2 cents
     
Chuckit
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Sep 6, 2006, 07:16 PM
 
Just ****ing dragging the file gets the job done too, but people seem to want to keep on discussing anyway, so we're already beyond the purely utilitarian aspects of the matter.
Chuck
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mac128k-1984
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Sep 6, 2006, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by parsec_kadets
What I fail to see is why we have to get into a big argument over this every other month.
Who says this is a big argument and I have not seen this request here before.

I'm just pointing out that its a nice useful feature regardless of what user interface rules it breaks.
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Chuckit
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Sep 6, 2006, 07:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by mac128k-1984
Who says this is a big argument and I have not seen this request here before.
You must be the only one. I saw the topic and thought, "Oh, great, another one."
Chuck
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voodoo
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Sep 6, 2006, 08:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
You must be the only one. I saw the topic and thought, "Oh, great, another one."
A shiver went up my spine and I thought.. ewwww. Not again! Here's hoping for a new and elegant Finder in 10.5!

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TheoCryst
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Sep 6, 2006, 08:45 PM
 
Honestly, they could alleviate so many headaches if they just didn't have it in the menu at all, instead of graying it out. This way, people are convinced that it's possible and that there's something they can do to (re)enable it.

Any ramblings are entirely my own, and do not represent those of my employers, coworkers, friends, or species
     
tooki
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Sep 6, 2006, 08:47 PM
 
NO!

Making menu commands appear and vanish is even worse, because then it's hard to learn what functions exist even if they may not be applicable now.

tooki
     
dru
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Sep 7, 2006, 06:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
Because it's a horrible interface metaphor. In order to really be accurate, the file would need to be deleted on disk as soon as the cut was enabled, and then written back to disk when pasted in. Obviously this is a usability nightmare, so instead Windows usea s half-baked pseudo-cut that should never have been implemented. It's inconsistent, and therefore has no place in a good GUI.
I have to say, it wasn't a Windows-originating idea. IBM came up with the idea for OS/2; it's in the '91 Common User Access Guidelines. However they decided not to use the Cut/Paste metaphor for file operations. When they later added that kind of feature to OS/2 (in '94) they changed the language to "Pickup" / "Drop." Drop was a submenu with Copy, Move, Create Shadow (e.g. an Alias/Shortcut), Cancel drag (same as hitting ESC)." This avoided the Cut/Copy/Paste expectations of a user's experience with other apps. The pointer would get a little suitcase, and the icon(s) title would dim, to remind the user they'd started this operation.

By '96 in OS/2 you could Paste items apps had put on the clipboard to the file system creating a file of the clipboard's contents; I think that was added due to the partial OpenDoc integration support. You'd get a "Paste Clipboard Contents to Folder" dialog to name the file, specify format (e.g. rich text, plain text) and an object class (e.g. data file, html, url) and click "Paste" to finish the operation. Other choices were Cancel or Help.

According to a period book called "Inside Windows 95" Microsoft *did* debate whether to do the Cut/Paste of files so they at least considered it might be a bad metaphor. I don't recall much detail, if any, about that debate.

NEXTSTEP didn't use menus to do this but did have an interim shelf to help you move items around the file system.
( Last edited by dru; Sep 7, 2006 at 06:46 AM. )
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analogika
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Sep 7, 2006, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Axel
Now that's something I don't get. What do questions of "menu item consistency" and "file metaphor" have to do with actual user experience ? Are there really lots of people caring that the "Cut" command doesn't actually erase the file before one decides to paste it ? Bottom line is : it gets the job done.
At the end of the day, computers are made to do actual stuff, not to stare at interface metaphors.

Just my 2 cents
Windows is about just getting the job done. That's why it's "good enough".

Apple is about making sense.

About building a computer "common sense" that actually empowers the user to do things he hadn't thought about doing without getting the step-by-step trained-monkey standard Windows training workshop-with-take-home-drool-proof-handout-instruction-sheet.
     
leperkuhn
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Sep 7, 2006, 11:33 AM
 
You know why this is a typical mac user discussion? Because it's littered with excuses and "theory" and finishes with "well, you can just do it this way instead."

Look, I've been a Mac user for about 15 years. I'm typing this from my 17" MacBook Pro, a beautiful machine. I use XP at work 8 hours a day. I don't care what the metaphore is called - if it's a matter of calling it something else, then that's fine. But the "select for move / move" (aka cut/paste) is a valuable tool when you don't already have both windows open, your screen space is limited, or you aren't exactly sure where you want to put the file.

The answer to your question is: it's not supported in the OS right now, that functionality is missing. But there are ways around it you might want to look into, like the XShelf app that someone linked to, or spring loaded folders. I agree with you that it's a good way to move files around.
     
analogika
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Sep 7, 2006, 11:52 AM
 
I bet you said that in the "single-button-mouse" threads, as well?

Not excuse. Reason. There's a difference.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 7, 2006, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by leperkuhn
The answer to your question is: it's not supported in the OS right now, that functionality is missing.
You say that as though there's a place it's supposed to be but isn't, rather than they designed the Finder not to do that.
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cla
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Sep 7, 2006, 02:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Analogika
Windows is about just getting the job done. That's why it's "good enough".
I'd say Mac is about getting the job done. I choose Mac because it get me from scratch to deadline in less time, with less hassle. Anyway, I understand what you mean – I just turned it around.

Anyway, here's a copy/paste quiz for you all:
Basically, the entire Edit menu adds loads of bad behaviour on users' behalf. If you know the answer to the question below, but never thought about it, you probably shouldn't discuss human-computer interaction in public forums :>

1. Write a paragraph of text.

2. Make a change in that paragraph.

3. Write a second paragraph.

4. Realize that the original version of the first paragraph was better than the rewritten version.

You haven't saved you document at any point. You want the first version of the first paragraph back. How do you do that without having to rewrite the second paragraph?


The solution to the problem above applies to all kinds of media (be it text, images sound or video) and to all applications I've ever run across.

Since it's Thursday I'll throw in a bonus exercise: Compare the behaviour you found to that of the Finder.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 7, 2006, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by cla
Basically, the entire Edit menu adds loads of bad behaviour on users' behalf. If you know the answer to the question below, but never thought about it, you probably shouldn't discuss human-computer interaction in public forums :>

1. Write a paragraph of text.

2. Make a change in that paragraph.

3. Write a second paragraph.

4. Realize that the original version of the first paragraph was better than the rewritten version.

You haven't saved you document at any point. You want the first version of the first paragraph back. How do you do that without having to rewrite the second paragraph?
Obviously the answer is to copy, undo, paste. But how is this bad behavior?
Chuck
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ntsc
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Sep 7, 2006, 04:14 PM
 
i think the idea here is that the copyboard shouldn't be used as medium or long term store for anything you really care about. you should only store things there that can be easily recovered (ie like when an item is copied) or when you are going to use that item *very* soon ie in the next couple of actions. the difference in this example is that since you have to copy the paragraph before you make the change then you were using the copy command to implement some kind of versioning, and you may or may not paste in an indeterminate amount of time or actions. since there is no warning that you'll lose the data you put on the copyboard, the copyboard is volatile and its really easy to cut or copy thus erasing the previous data in the board this is bad.

i think the functional gains of cut in for files are well accepted, but i think that it would be better if the metaphor wasn't confused. those who don't care about metaphors in GUI design shouldn't be GUI designers.
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Peter
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Sep 7, 2006, 04:53 PM
 
I'd like a 'send to' command, so i can send my file to a specific directory (chosen by path)
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chabig
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Sep 7, 2006, 05:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Peter
I'd like a 'send to' command, so i can send my file to a specific directory (chosen by path)
Try Save As... When the sheet pops down, hit cmd-shift-G (same shortcut as the Finder's Goto command). Type your path--bingo!

Chris
     
bloodline
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Sep 7, 2006, 06:07 PM
 
What's needed is a "Move" option that functions like the Windows "Cut" option :-)
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Sep 7, 2006, 06:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by bloodline
What's needed is a "Move" option that functions like the Windows "Cut" option :-)
We have that. Hold down the command key when you drag.

Chris
     
Peter
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Sep 7, 2006, 07:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig
Try Save As... When the sheet pops down, hit cmd-shift-G (same shortcut as the Finder's Goto command). Type your path--bingo!

Chris
yeah -- but i need to do it in the finder
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chabig
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Sep 7, 2006, 07:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Peter
yeah -- but i need to do it in the finder
Then make a Finder plugin using Automator. It's very simple:

http://homepage.mac.com/chabig/move.png
[PLEASE mind the image rules!! -- oversize image converted to link. --tooki]

Chris
( Last edited by tooki; Sep 8, 2006 at 03:43 PM. )
     
toeknee
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Sep 10, 2006, 02:47 PM
 
I am a late-comer to this discussion, and I don't think it was mentioned above, so I apologize if it was. A "cut" type command would be most useful when moving files between different hard drives or different shares, flash drives, etc.

That is what I run into most often-- I want to move a file's storage location from one disk or type of medium to another, and I do use drag and drop (and I think the automatic folder popping is awesome), but when it comes down to it in these situations, you still need to remember to go back to the original location and delete the file there (remember- even drag and drop turns into 'copy' when it's moving to a different disk). Not always easy to remember to delete the old one with a million distractions.

Here's what I'd love to have as a contextual menu item: "Move file to..."
When you right-click on a file or group of files/folders and choose "Move file to..." a dialog box pops up and asks "choose destination folder" and then (here's my additional feature request) it has a box checked by default "do verification of successful move before deleting source file."

So then navigating to and clicking "choose" to choose your destination drive/share/directory, the file is copied there, verified, and then deleted from the source (or moved to Trash if a local drive).

Additional options one could checkmark would be "make destination file a Zip archive" and perhaps even "make destination file a password-protected Zip archive"

Those options would be fantastic for one-right-click archiving a client folder to a network backup share (and off my Mac) when finished with it or quickly choosing files to move to a flash drive to be worked on elsewhere.

I am not a programmer, but I'd love to see it an OS feature (and suggesting it to Apple seems one way to make sure that does not happen).

What do you all think? Hello? Anyone still reading this?
     
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Sep 10, 2006, 03:04 PM
 
Hold down the command key while you drag a file to another volume to move instead of copy.
     
toeknee
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Sep 10, 2006, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL
Hold down the command key while you drag a file to another volume to move instead of copy.
I don't know why I never knew that-- I don't believe that worked pre-OS X, because I am sure I would have known about it.

That being said, I'd still love the other idea I had, where it brought up a dialog box allowing you to choose to Zip/Stuff the file(s) and perhaps other options I haven't thought of.

Herzlichen Dank! T
     
Chuckit
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Sep 10, 2006, 05:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by toeknee
it has a box checked by default "do verification of successful move before deleting source file."
You want an option for "delete my file and possibly stick it somewhere else, maybe"?
Chuck
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analogika
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Sep 10, 2006, 06:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by toeknee
I don't know why I never knew that-- I don't believe that worked pre-OS X, because I am sure I would have known about it.
Pretty sure it did.
     
toeknee
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Sep 10, 2006, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
You want an option for "delete my file and possibly stick it somewhere else, maybe"?
I meant have it do an EXTRA verification. During the copying procedure, there's constant error checking, but I am not sure whether there is an additional file to file comparison done. On the other hand, I have never had a copy procedure fail, so an extra verification step may be unnecessary and unnecessarily time-consuming, especially when copying a lot of files or a very large file.
     
 
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