[Don Pickett]

The typical adult male's hematocrit—the percentage of his blood that is composed of red blood cells—hovers around 45.

The hemocrit of a typical adult male is NOT 45. 45 was the average of the peleton, and 50 gives some room for fluctuation.

[budster101]

still nobody can explain to me, "who knows nothing", why Lance Armstrong would even bother to dope?
What would it do for him?

Nothing.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

The hemocrit of a typical adult male is NOT 45. 45 was the average of the peleton, and 50 gives some room for fluctuation.

45 is considered normal for an average male. It's more like 40ish for an average female.

BTW, >50% can be seen in normal males living at high altitude.

Originally Posted by budster101

still nobody can explain to me, "who knows nothing", why Lance Armstrong would even bother to dope?
What would it do for him?

Nothing.

It's possible that doping could help him a bit. That doesn't mean he's doing it though.

[budster101]

He's number two in the world for VO2 max, the other guy isn't even in the game... he doesn't have to risk it.

[typoon]

It's interesting how this thread has devolved into a thread about doping more than about the tour.

Anyway, Manuel Beltran dropped out of the race after a crash today on one of the climbs. It's going to be interesting to see how Discovery picks up their game after this.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

45 is considered normal for an average male. It's more like 40ish for an average female.

BTW, >50% can be seen in normal males living at high altitude.

I haven't seen that 45 is the number for an average male. I know that 50 was arrived at by taking the average for the peleton and moving up one standard deviation.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by typoon

It's interesting how this thread has devolved into a thread about doping more than about the tour.

Anyway, Manuel Beltran dropped out of the race after a crash today on one of the climbs. It's going to be interesting to see how Discovery picks up their game after this.

Probably won't hurt them much. Beltran was being used on the lower slopes of the climbs, with Salvodelli, Azevedo and Popovych doing the work on the steeps. Plus, Hincapie topped the Galibier with Lance yesterday, so he's obviously climbing well.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

I haven't seen that 45 is the number for an average male.

Well, then you haven't looked very hard. It's even taught in high school biology classes.

From the NIH:

Male: 40.7-50.3%
Female: 36.1-44.3%

Originally Posted by budster101

He's number two in the world for VO2 max, the other guy isn't even in the game... he doesn't have to risk it.

That's circular reasoning. Blood doping increases VO2 max. I agree we have no evidence to support he is doping, but the argument that he has a high V02 max and thus is not doping is not really a good one.

[budster101]

You only benefit in the short run from doping. If you understood this you wouldn't have posted what you did. His VO2 max is a long term testable event, not just prior to building up to a competition...

7 x champion and they have yet to test him doping... He's clean.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by budster101

You only benefit in the short run from doping. If you understood this you wouldn't have posted what you did. His VO2 max is a long term testable event, not just prior to building up to a competition...

So you have all his VO2 max measurements? BTW, VO2 max does indeed change in individuals.

7 x champion and they have yet to test him doping... He's clean.

Like I said, that may very well be true, but your VO2 max reason does not make sense.

[PacHead]

They way people are whining about Lance, you'd think Lance's competitors where riding this:

[mr. burns]

Originally Posted by budster101

You just admitted he doesn't dope.

"for your information, he's most likely quitting next season...replaced by someone that "DOES" dope..."

Winning the TDF 7 times has nothing to do with it either and he wants to just relax and retire....

How bitter of you and your 'friend'.

uhhhhh i was talkin about my friend quitting, not lance, smart-guy.

[budster101]

Why would any of us care if your friend is retiring or not?

Lance is retiring, smart-guy, and it was an easy thing to confuse with your post.
Let your friend get his own thread.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

That's circular reasoning. Blood doping increases VO2 max. I agree we have no evidence to support he is doping, but the argument that he has a high V02 max and thus is not doping is not really a good one.

Not all doping increases VO2Max. The infamous "pot Belge" is basically a speedball. The amphetamines give the rider more energy, the morphine makes the pain go away and the steroids aid in muscle development.

Use of EPO increases the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood for about two to three days. However, it comes at a high price: EPO thickens the blood. When combined with the drop in water volume which occurs naturally in exercise, EPO can literally kill you. EPO use was first noticed when several young Belgian and Dutch cyclists dropped dead of heart attacks during training or while racing.

As to Armstrong's VO2Max: he has always had an unusually high level, back to his pre-cycling days when he was a nationally-ranked triathlete. The likelihood that his high VO2Max levels have come from 15 years of systemic doping is small.

[mr. burns]

just because a guy gets tested constantly doesn't mean he's being tested for the right substances. it's not as simple as one would think. they're very specific tests, looking for specific things in the blood. the organizations that produce these performance enhancing drugs are always one step ahead. they're not stupid and don't wait for something to become detectable before they work on something else. even before one substance is discovered and can be tested for, they're already working on another that requires a totally different test. and it's not like these guys are constantly on something. it's usually during the off-season when they're doing their most intense training and testing is less regular. imagine how sly and corrupt baseball is with performance enhancing drugs. it's a war between producers and testers. imaginr it being 10 times worse and you have the sport of cycling.

my friend may be bitter, or frustrated but it's bitterness towards the sport in general, not one man in particular and he sure as hell isn't jealous. he's a track cyclist so he could give a **** about lance. he has absolutely no reason to be bitter toward lance because road cycling isn't even what he competes in. he also has no reason to take that next step and start doping because he was smart enough to keep going to university and get a degree so he didn't have to rely on cycling to be his only source of income. he was valedictorian in high school and is smart as hell. he knows the risks aren't worth it and it's not in his character to resort to something like that. once he gets to that point where it's either dope or quit, he'll gladly quit because he doesn't have nearly as much to lose as most others. a lot of guys don't have a plan B and buckle down and start doping because they have nothing else. but you'd be frustrated too if you knew the only way to get to the next level was to become one of them and cheat like them.

and stop blindly obsessing over VO2max. that's such a small factor in cycling. your VO2max doesn't pump your legs. your VO2max doesn't give you determination. your VO2max doesn't give you technique and a dream team to set the pace and do all the hard work for you.


look up james hibbard on google. that's my friend and he's one of my best friends, not just some acquaintence.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Not all doping increases VO2Max. The infamous "pot Belge" is basically a speedball. The amphetamines give the rider more energy, the morphine makes the pain go away and the steroids aid in muscle development.

"Pot Belge" is a mix of opiates and stimulants, and I guess is "doping" if you use the term loosely to describe performance enhancing drugs.

However blood doping has nothing to do "Pot Belge", and we were talking specifically about blood doping. Otherwise, what's the point of mentioning VO2 max?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

"Pot Belge" is a mix of opiates and stimulants, and I guess is "doping" if you use the term loosely to describe performance enhancing drugs.

However blood doping has nothing to do "Pot Belge", and we were talking specifically about blood doping. Otherwise, what's the point of mentioning VO2 max?

Because the term "doping", when used in cycling, typically means any and all drug use by cyclists. Don't know why, but that's just the way it is.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by mr. burns

look up james hibbard on google. that's my friend and he's one of my best friends, not just some acquaintence.

That's nice. "My friend says" isn't proof.

[budster101]

I was thinking track & field, where doping means blood doping... had not heard it used otherwise.

Why are you speaking for him on a forum? I don't know, maybe it's me but I'm not going to use the 'my friend' argument when that friend is a celebrety and may become angered if he'd found out. It's not cool.

You are so into your argument that you outed your friend's name, and I think that is definately not cool. Just my .02 cents.

It really doesn't support your argument much anyway. You could easily point to other people with allegations etc.

The man (Lance) is clean until proven otherwise, and this soon to be 7 time Tour Day France winner will retire after quite a life. The man deserves props for what he has gone through and what he has accomplished, and I cannot stomach someone trying to badmouth him. Everyone loves a winner. Oh, and everyone hates a winner too.

I have nothing against your friend for your opinions or his as you state them, as he seems to have had a great career with some milestones all his own. Whenever one sees an industry from the inside, it always has an effect on them. The negative along with some good, and it is consistent across the board, weather it is a sport, game, or business. It has been my opinion that a professional anyone has to have an edge to them in order to succeed, and this edge is not attainable by all because we all think you have to be a nice guy all the time. Winning is not easy, and in order to accomplish one's goal, sometimes you have to be singel-minded. Life is not necessarily a team sport...

= Reaches for another beer...

[typoon]

Originally Posted by mr. burns

just because a guy gets tested constantly doesn't mean he's being tested for the right substances. it's not as simple as one would think. they're very specific tests, looking for specific things in the blood. the organizations that produce these performance enhancing drugs are always one step ahead. they're not stupid and don't wait for something to become detectable before they work on something else. even before one substance is discovered and can be tested for, they're already working on another that requires a totally different test. and it's not like these guys are constantly on something. it's usually during the off-season when they're doing their most intense training and testing is less regular. imagine how sly and corrupt baseball is with performance enhancing drugs. it's a war between producers and testers. imaginr it being 10 times worse and you have the sport of cycling.

That might be true but it is very difficult to hide a substance for 7 years. A few years ago I know that they were talking about EPO the same way that they didn't test for it then they had a test for it. Also how do you explain the French Authorities doing a 2 year investigation and found nothing? If he was doing something I'm sure they would have found something.

The other thing is how come people assume someone successful in sports is doping? Yes, there are people who do it but there are many "elite" atheles that don't. Also what happened to Innocent until proven guilty? Lance hasn't been found to be doping so why assume that he is? Because many others in the sport are? How do you know for sure that your friend isn't? I mean everyone in the sport is. It's not like he is going to tell you he is. Is it not possible for someone to have rebuilt themselves through HARD WORK?

I doubt that if Lance was doping he would have won 6 Tours. Your life gets ruined by the drugs. WHile they may be at an elite level for a few years they always fade fast.

Would you say that Miguel Indurain was doping? How about The great Eddy Mercx? What about Bernard Hinault? I'm sure they were doping too. I mean there is no other way anyone could win the Tour De France 5 times couldn't be doping. It's impossible. That means Lance has to be since he's won it 6 going on 7 as it looks like right now.

Are these things not possible through intense training and hard work? Until it's proven that he is doping I'm not going to believe it. Even if your "friend" "has stuff on Lance." If he's got this stuff why not release it and prove to everyone that Lance is doping?

[Ω]

A great stage in the opening of the Pyrenees. Lance being isolated from his team made for a great stage, though once again he showed his rivals a thing or two. Not quite good enough to win the stage today, but I am sure he will be sleeping well tonight knowing he has solidified his position.

My guess is that Ullrich will be glad when Lance is finally gone, because then he might be able to shine, though the way some of these "young" riders are coming through....

And for those people who want to discuss the drugs aspect of the race - fu.ck off and start your own thread full of hate, this one is about the race.

[budster101]

Omega, well said.

I love watching this race!

[Ω]

Just so you know budster I am hoping he loses! Well not all of me, the guy is a cycling machine and I have to respect him for that!

The upcoming stage is considered to be the hardest stage of the race, so if you are going to watch one, then this is it. 4 massive climbs coming their way, and the carnage will be spread across the roads of the Pyrenees.

I will go out on a limb here and say Lance will still be leading after it!

[budster101]

He's ahead by a minute and his lead will increase from here on out...

[Ω]

No, this will finally be the year that he cracks and goes out the back!

[shabbasuraj]

Sunday's stage is PURE DEATH for all those involved....

[budster101]

Sorry for you to say, Lance is going to be da winnahhhhhhhhhhh!

GO USA!

[Eug Wanker]

Originally Posted by budster101

Sorry for you to say, Lance is going to be da winnahhhhhhhhhhh!

Yes. I also think Lance will win.

GO USA!

Most of Lance's team isn't from the USA.

[Ω]

Well the end of another brutal day.

Good to see Hincapie win a stage, and it was almost amusing seeing him not knowing what to do!

Have to say other than Basso, the tour is over. Both he and Lance did well to consolidate today and poor Ullrich disappeared at the finish. I must say that the person I most impressed with today was Rasmussen to fight his way back and catch Ullrich to maintain third place overall. Another notable would have to Vinokourov who was all over the place - attacking, dropped, fights back, attacks - he sure made for an interesting race and was instrumental in creating a lot of breaks today.

Looks like it is Tour de Lance for another year.

[nredman]

i was excited that Hincapie finally won a tour stage - i don't think lance can lose unless he crashes or something. i am more excited to see what happens next year when lance is gone. Basso will probably rule for a few years - the announcers seemed to think if he had done (some tour before this) he would be doing better

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Ω

Another notable would have to Vinokourov who was all over the place - attacking, dropped, fights back, attacks - he sure made for an interesting race and was instrumental in creating a lot of breaks today.

Looks like it is Tour de Lance for another year.

Phil and Paul mentioned yesterday that Vino might move to Discovery next year, which would be amazing. Goodefroot and Pevenage have never known what to do with him.

[Ω]

I don't think they the commentators could believe it when Vino got a break a couple of days ago and Ullrich and Kloden ran him down.

I think the race is now really for third and who will win the green jersey, though it is getting amusing listening to the commentators say who will be the new king of the tour in upcoming years - you would think 10 people will be wearing the yellow jersey into Paris next year!

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Ω

I don't think they the commentators could believe it when Vino got a break a couple of days ago and Ullrich and Kloden ran him down.

I think the race is now really for third and who will win the green jersey, though it is getting amusing listening to the commentators say who will be the new king of the tour in upcoming years - you would think 10 people will be wearing the yellow jersey into Paris next year!

Next year should be a great race. Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Salvodelli and Popovych all have a legitimate shot.

[typoon]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Next year should be a great race. Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Salvodelli and Popovych all have a legitimate shot.

Agreed. It should be a very wide open race next year.

[Anand]

Originally Posted by budster101

still nobody can explain to me, "who knows nothing", why Lance Armstrong would even bother to dope?
What would it do for him?

Nothing.

I am not saying that Lance use any performance enhancing agent but I hate it when people say that he would never us it because of his cancer. My argument was always that he would use it because of his cancer.

The sad part is that the chances are very high that Lance will die from his cancer some day - might be soon - might be years from now. You can't tell. But statistically it will. And when it comes back, it will kill him. So, if everybody is using something, why not play on an even field? What does he have to loose?

[budster101]

Try and make sense next time you post. Your convoluted method of actually saying Lance Blood Dopes was despicable.

Do you even know what Doping is?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Anand

My argument was always that he would use it because of his cancer.

This makes no sense.

[Anand]

Why? Lance's own Dr. have told him that if the cancer comes back, it will kill him. Live for the moment.

And I am not saying he uses anything.

[Anand]

No, but I know that you are a dope.

[budster101]

Who the F ck are you responding to?

[Ω]

Who ever he responded to, it was not necessary.

All it takes is one post to drag this thread back into the quagmire of doping......

[Anand]

Originally Posted by Ω

Who ever he responded to, it was not necessary.

All it takes is one post to drag this thread back into the quagmire of doping......

Agreed, hopefully the dopes will shut-up!

This years TDF has great. Lance is the best of his generation. When it is all said and done, I think Lance will be considered one the top 3 cyclist of all time. No doubt. Merck is the best - without question. Who is second? Jacques Anquetil?

I feel bad for Ullrich. He is a great competitor and may still win another TDF. I think he will win next year. He can still TT better than anyone, except Lance, and I think he can limit his losses in the mountains to Basso.

[typoon]

This Year's Tour is pretty exciting. Looks like Lance will win again barring any major crash.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Anand

Agreed, hopefully the dopes will shut-up!

This years TDF has great. Lance is the best of his generation. When it is all said and done, I think Lance will be considered one the top 3 cyclist of all time. No doubt. Merck is the best - without question. Who is second? Jacques Anquetil?

I feel bad for Ullrich. He is a great competitor and may still win another TDF. I think he will win next year. He can still TT better than anyone, except Lance, and I think he can limit his losses in the mountains to Basso.

Lance with probably vie with Hinault and Anquetil. He is closer to Hinault as a rider.

[budster101]

Why wouldn't Lance be number 1?

Who else has won 6 TDFs? Ever? Now it's going to be 7...

[Eug Wanker]

So what's he gonna do after 2005? (I mean besides Sheryl Crow.)

[budster101]

He's going to do a lot and make mucho dinero fo show.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

So what's he gonna do after 2005? (I mean besides Sheryl Crow.)

He's already said he will remain very involved with Discovery.

[Eug Wanker]

Chris Carmichael (Lance Armstrong's coach), talks about bike technology and training methodology:

Cycling is a deeply European sport, and it is governed by a multitude of traditions and customs that don't necessarily have any connection to performance. For instance, until very recently, team directors and even some team doctors believed that air conditioning in cars and hotel rooms was bad for riders. I never really understood their rationale, but it had something to do with the idea that cool air led to respiratory infections. As a result, exhausted riders were told to sleep in hot and stuffy hotel rooms, and since they didn't get a good night's sleep, they rode poorly due to lack of rest.

The relatively short history of American cyclists in the European peloton has worked to our advantage. When we arrived on the continent in the 80s, we immediately started questioning the customs and traditions we found. We weren't trying to be disrespectful, but it seemed odd to work so hard trying to win races only to be hindered by practices that existed because "that's how it's always been done." American riders were more open to new technologies for training and competition, and that has played a large role in their successes over the past 20 years.

[Randman]

Armstrong wins his first stage of the Tour, beating Ulrich. All but clinched win No. 7 now. Break out the champagne for tomorrow's ride.

Wow. Talk about anti-climatic.