[Hawkeye_a]

Finally, a product i hope can compete with the iPad.

HP event scheduled for February 9th, to show off their first WebOS pad. I really hope it's something that can compete on quality and user experience with the iPad.

Tease video available here:
HP video teases device ahead of February 9 event; Topaz? | Electronista

Cheers

[Laminar]

It's no Galaxy Tab, that's for sure.

[ort888]

How big is the screen?

[The Final Dakar]

I don't get some people's obsession with Apple having competition in certain product places. Have we become self-loathing or simply deniers regarding our enjoyment of Apple products? I don't hear many complaints about the iPad (aside from slots) but somehow we need something that competes with it (I don't see competition solving that problem).

Seriously, I'd be interested as to what Android has done to improve the iPhone.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ort888 

How big is the screen?

There is supposed to be a 7" and 9" tablet.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I don't get some people's obsession with Apple having competition in certain product places.

Competition is good. A lot of people (myself included) have always felt that webOS would make an amazing tablet OS. I have a Palm Pre Plus right now and it's an amazing OS that could really really shine with a powerful processor and a big screen. The iPad is a great product, but let's be honest: iOS, while fast and easy to use, doesn't really take advantage of a 9.7" screen. There is still no way to view more than one app at a time, it still relies on a standard application icon grid, etc.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Competition is good.

I didn't say it wasn't.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

A lot of people (myself included) have always felt that webOS would make an amazing tablet OS. I have a Palm Pre Plus right now and it's an amazing OS that could really really shine with a powerful processor and a big screen. The iPad is a great product, but let's be honest: iOS, while fast and easy to use, doesn't really take advantage of a 9.7" screen. There is still no way to view more than one app at a time, it still relies on a standard application icon grid, etc.

Ok... so how does this improve the iPad?

[imitchellg5]

What I'm saying is that the iPad doesn't work any differently than your standard Android or iOS smartphone, while webOS is a different paradigm. Apple didn't really innovate for the iPad, but in many ways, webOS is already innovative enough as-is to be a convincing tablet OS, and I'm sure HP have reworked it for the tablet on top of that.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

What I'm saying is that the iPad doesn't work any differently than your standard Android or iOS smartphone, while webOS is a different paradigm. Apple didn't really innovate for the iPad, but in many ways, webOS is already innovative enough as-is to be a convincing tablet OS, and I'm sure HP have reworked it for the tablet on top of that.

So... this affects the iPad how?

[imitchellg5]

That if HP can pull this off then the iPad will have a serious competitor that is actually a very good tablet.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

That if HP can pull this off then the iPad will have a serious competitor that is actually a very good tablet.

Are you ****ing with me? That's not an answer.

OP: The HP could finally be legit competition for the iPad
Me: I like the Apple ecosystem. How does competition affect it?
You: Competition is good.
Me: Ok, but what will it do to Apple?
You: This could be a really great OS.
Me: And what will Apple do about that?
You: This could be competition.
Me: ?!?

[imitchellg5]

If it's a serious threat to the iPad, and more specifically iOS, won't Apple have to at least take into consideration what makes webOS great?

[olePigeon]

It affects the iPad because as the newer tablets hit the market copying Apple's features practically verbatim, Apple is forced to improve the iPad through design, software, and features to make it a more compelling purchase than the laundry list of me-too tablets.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

If it's a serious threat to the iPad, and more specifically iOS, won't Apple have to at least take into consideration what makes webOS great?

Sure. What makes WebOS so great that the iPad could use? Or is this all theoretical?

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

It affects the iPad because as the newer tablets hit the market copying Apple's features practically verbatim, Apple is forced to improve the iPad through design, software, and features to make it a more compelling purchase than the laundry list of me-too tablets.

Wasn't Apple improving the iOS when it was crushing the competition with the iPhone? Like I asked, how has Android affected the iOS?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

It affects the iPad because as the newer tablets hit the market copying Apple's features practically verbatim, Apple is forced to improve the iPad through design, software, and features to make it a more compelling purchase than the laundry list of me-too tablets.

webOS is a completely different animal from iOS... I think the only feature that webOS perhaps "copies" from iOS is that it has Google Maps and a WebKit browser.

[Stogieman]

WebOS failed to compete with iOS and Android in the smartphone market. Why will the tablet market be any different?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Sure. What makes WebOS so great that the iPad could use? Or is this all theoretical

There's a lot of compelling features with webOS.

1) True multitasking. An app can run in the background no matter what. webOS is basically Linux and handles multitasking exactly the same way that Linux on any PC does.

2) Cards: It's hard to describe cards, but basically each application screen is called a card. Cards can be grouped together, etc. You can swipe through cards of open apps very easily and keep an eye on what each card is doing through sort of a bird's eye overview. Engadget's review of the webOS 2.0 shows a lot more. It's very easy to put together a smooth-running workflow like this.

3) Notifications: Let's face it, iOS has the worst notifications. They completely boot you out of what you're doing and then if the app you were in doesn't have take advantage of the multitasking APIs, you have to start from scratch. webOS notifications appear at a space on the bottom portion of the device's screen and give you a preview of what app and what the actual notification is. You can then swipe from right to left to delete the notification or you can tap on the notification to access the area pertaining to the notification. It's very simple and very smooth.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Stogieman 

WebOS failed to compete with iOS and Android in the smartphone market. Why will the tablet market be any different?

Because Palm's hardware SUCKED. I say that as a Pre owner. It's not all that well built, and nobody wants a 3.2" screen. Plus battery life isn't that great and the processor is slow. Now with HP, webOS can be put on some hardware that really shines. Also, Palm's marketing of webOS as an OS for busy moms pretty much alienated most of the smartphone market in 2008 when webOS debuted, as well as Sprint exclusivity made for pretty much a DOA product.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

There's a lot of compelling features with webOS.

1) True multitasking. An app can run in the background no matter what. webOS is basically Linux and handles multitasking exactly the same way that Linux on any PC does.

Doesn't Apple limit multi-tasking on purpose? This isn't something competition will fix. We'll get true multi-asking when Apple/Steve thinks their hardware can support it.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

2) Cards: It's hard to describe cards, but basically each application screen is called a card. Cards can be grouped together, etc. You can swipe through cards of open apps very easily and keep an eye on what each card is doing through sort of a bird's eye overview. Engadget's review of the webOS 2.0 shows a lot more. It's very easy to put together a smooth-running workflow like this.

Don't know enough to comment here.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

3) Notifications: Let's face it, iOS has the worst notifications. They completely boot you out of what you're doing and then if the app you were in doesn't have take advantage of the multitasking APIs, you have to start from scratch. webOS notifications appear at a space on the bottom portion of the device's screen and give you a preview of what app and what the actual notification is. You can then swipe from right to left to delete the notification or you can tap on the notification to access the area pertaining to the notification. It's very simple and very smooth.

Sounds like something that Apple would/will improve anyway.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Like I asked, how has Android affected the iOS?

Magic.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Doesn't Apple limit multi-tasking on purpose? This isn't something competition will fix. We'll get true multi-asking when Apple/Steve thinks their hardware can support it.

I have no idea why Apple do it, but it works just fine on a Pre, even with the slow processor.

Sounds like something that Apple would/will improve anyway.

They've been sitting with these notifications for quite a while even though a lot of people complain about them.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I have no idea why Apple do it, but it works just fine on a Pre, even with the slow processor.

Battery life.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

They've been sitting with these notifications for quite a while even though a lot of people complain about them.

When were they introduced?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Battery life.

Perhaps, but the iPhone has some of the better battery life out there, and the Pre has a tiny battery and still makes it through a day.

When were they introduced?

Well notifications have been around since day one of the iPhone for first party apps, but since 2009 and iOS 3.0 for third party applications.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Perhaps, but the iPhone has some of the better battery life out there, and the Pre has a tiny battery and still makes it through a day.

The iPhone likely has some of the better battery life out there because of the crippled multi-tasking. Oh yeah, and no flash, too.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Well notifications have been around since day one of the iPhone for first party apps, but since 2009 and iOS 3.0 for third party applications.

Alright, so they have survived a major revision in shitty form. I don't know how much of a priority this is to users, though. This reeks of typical Apple/Steve indifference. Would competition solve this? Is there some other example of an iOS feature being added because the competition did it better?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

The iPhone likely has some of the better battery life out there because of the crippled multi-tasking. Oh yeah, and no flash, too.

Perhaps. I don't actually think the iPhone NEEDS to have true multitasking. But the iPad should, and it certainly has amazing battery life as is. I don't think that true multitasking would necessarily destroy the battery life too badly on a device like the iPad.

Alright, so they have survived a major revision in shitty form. I don't know how much of a priority this is to users, though. This reeks of typical Apple/Steve indifference. Would competition solve this? Is there some other example of an iOS feature being added because the competition did it better?

All Apple needs to do is make notifications less intrusive. I've never said that Apple is influenced by competition, what I'm saying is that I hope Apple are paying close attention to what HP are doing in this space that they are soon to share in the marketplace. If an HP webOS tablet and an iPad are going to be sitting next to each other in Best Buy, Apple needs to realise that there are some features of the webOS tablet that users might find more compelling. The same will go for the Xoom, assuming people can get over the stupid name and it isn't priced as highly as has been suggested ($799 base).

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Perhaps. I don't actually think the iPhone NEEDS to have true multitasking. But the iPad should, and it certainly has amazing battery life as is. I don't think that true multitasking would necessarily destroy the battery life too badly on a device like the iPad.

God, I think the iPad's best feature is it's sick battery life. No need to rain on that parade.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I've never said that Apple is influenced by competition

Well I wish you had said that earlier when I asked how competition affects the iPad. I guess the answer is it doesn't.

I don't resent anyone wanting something other than an iPad. I just feel the entire concept of competition being good for Apple being overblown. They're too aloof for it to matter 99% of time.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I've never said that Apple is influenced by competition

what I'm saying is that I hope Apple are paying close attention

Pick a verb form.

[imitchellg5]

Let me say this: I don't think that Apple is a company that looks at the competition and says "We gotta do this." But I do think that Apple is constantly looking at the competition and asking "How can we do this better?" And if Apple can't find a way to do it better, I think they put it on the back burner until its ready. There are numerous examples of when company X releases a new product, and a month later company Y releases a new product with the exact same feature, just under a different trademark. Apple doesn't do that, and I'm not saying that Apple should just gratuitously copy the standout features of webOS. My hope is that Apple is indeed working on new notifications, etc.

The thing that bothers me about the iPad in its current state is that I see the iPad as a beautiful piece of hardware with competent software, yet with its 1 GHz A4 and great graphics processor I think it could be a lot more than what it is now, and I hope that it will eventually morph into something more than just a basically large iPod touch.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Pick a verb form.

That was put together properly; I was using two different tenses. Sorry if I offended your delicate sensibilities.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Let me say this: I don't think that Apple is a company that looks at the competition and says "We gotta do this." But I do think that Apple is constantly looking at the competition and asking "How can we do this better?" And if Apple can't find a way to do it better, I think they put it on the back burner until its ready.

That's been my god damn point all along! Apple's gonna do what they're gonna do, and the competition's effect is negligible.

If you want an iPad and think competition is going to solve whatever issues you have with the current iteration, you're deluded. If you don't want an iPad and are looking to what the competition is offering instead, than the fact that it competes with the iPad is moot.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

The thing that bothers me about the iPad in its current state is that I see the iPad as a beautiful piece of hardware with competent software, yet with its 1 GHz A4 and great graphics processor I think it could be a lot more than what it is now, and I hope that it will eventually morph into something more than just a basically large iPod touch.

It's been out less than a year. Patience.

[Stogieman]

Exactly. People seem to forget the iPad is still a 1st gen product.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Stogieman 

Exactly. People seem to forget the iPad is still a 1st gen product.

Probably because it's very polished for a first gen product.
Or because it's similar to the iPhone which has been out for 4 years.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Stogieman 

Exactly. People seem to forget the iPad is still a 1st gen product.

But it isn't really a first generation product is it? We've basically had this product since 2007, just not with a 9.7" screen.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

The iPad is a great product, but let's be honest: iOS, while fast and easy to use, doesn't really take advantage of a 9.7" screen. There is still no way to view more than one app at a time,

It's a tablet, not a desktop computer. People like the iPad because it's so much simpler to use than a desktop computer. The main reason for that is that it's easy to find your app to launch, there aren't several things going on on the screen at once, and app switching is easy and intuitive and it's obvious which app is active because it's the only one you can see.

[imitchellg5]

I want more than one thing going on at a time. When I get a new IM in AIM, I don't want to have a notification place itself in front of everything else and then I don't want to switch apps to send a three word reply. That seems less simple to use than a desktop computer where I can have as many applications open side by side as I can fit on my screen and not have to access menus to go between both of them.

[ort888]

Then what you need is a laptop.

[chabig]

I don't get the whole "Apple need competition" meme. Apple, under Steve Jobs, has never shown a reluctance to make their products better and better. If you think Apple doesn't see room for improvement and can't innovate without competition you are mistaken. Apple builds products for themselves, and they (like all of us) want their stuff to get better and better--competition or no.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Then what you need is a laptop.

That's funny. What I have is a laptop and I don't have a tablet.

[Hawkeye_a]

"I don't get some people's obsession with Apple having competition in certain product places."

The way competition works is, companies compete by trying to release better products that their competitors, if a competitor does not exist that can compete on quality, the one at the top has little motivation to improve and push the envelope(that's human nature).

Maybe complacence isn't a mindset exclusive to companies that are "Not Apple". Maybe one of the reasons MacOS has been so awesome, is because of the competition ? Has iOS had a similar competitor since it's release ? I mean in terms of quality, polish, usability, etc.... not in terms of revenue and market-share and sell-through. WebOS didn't have the financial backing it deserved from Palm IMHO, because they probably couldn't afford it. HP has the logistical and marketing muscle that Palm never had. And what i like is that they're probably adopting the "vertical" product development model similar to Apple and Palm.

What do i like about WebOS ? have you SEEN the keynote they introduced WebOS in 2008(?) ? If i had to pick only one thing i like about WebOS over iOS, it would be notifications. Notifications on iOS SUCK. (WebOS notifications in comparison). In fact i read a rumor last year when HP bought Palm, that Apple had managed to hire the dude in charge of Notifications from Palm. (That wouldn't have happened if it wasn't a competitive product).

I do not like the "task manager" on iOS either, too many steps to quit an application IMHO...it needs to be better. I prefer WebOS' approach (cards metaphor).

Judging from the little we see in the teaser, the hardware looks well designed(nice and curvy) and polished as well, especially when compared to the Android crap we see everyday.

Apple has been relatively stagnant with the iOS UI since they introduced the iPhone. I can't blame them. But here we have the potential of a real quality competitor IMHO.

I'm a HUGE Apple fan, and i own and use their products every day. But i am a consumer first, and anything that motivates companies, even industry leaders like Apple to improve, or improve faster is a good thing.

Also, just because i/we are Apple fans, doesn't mean we cannot appreciate efforts and products from other companies, especially when they have something good to offer. Being an Apple fan isn't a mutually exclusive hobby.

Cheers

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

In fact i read a rumor last year when HP bought Palm, that Apple had managed to hire the dude in charge of Notifications from Palm. (That wouldn't have happened if it wasn't a competitive product).

That's not a rumour, that actually happened. I forgot about that. And I agree with everything you said 100%.

[ort888]

Apple's biggest competitor is themselves. They are driven to improve their own products because they want you to upgrade from their old products.

The iPod was so far ahead of the rest of the mp3 player market in terms of marketshare... Apple didn't have to do squat... and yet, they pushed the line like crazy... because they don't want to sell you an iPod. They want to sell you a new iPod every year.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Apple's biggest competitor is themselves. They are driven to improve their own products because they want you to upgrade from their old products.

Not true when according to Apple themselves 50% of new Mac purchasers are new to the platform.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I want more than one thing going on at a time. When I get a new IM in AIM, I don't want to have a notification place itself in front of everything else and then I don't want to switch apps to send a three word reply. That seems less simple to use than a desktop computer where I can have as many applications open side by side as I can fit on my screen and not have to access menus to go between both of them.

You want this.

[imitchellg5]

The ModBook is very cool for business owners, but I'm not a fan of using non-touch OSes with a touchscreen.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Apple's biggest competitor is themselves. They are driven to improve their own products because they want you to upgrade from their old products.

The iPod was so far ahead of the rest of the mp3 player market in terms of marketshare... Apple didn't have to do squat... and yet, they pushed the line like crazy... because they don't want to sell you an iPod. They want to sell you a new iPod every year.

You're obviously neglecting he tremendous impact the Zune has had on the iPod's evolution.

ROFL

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Seriously, I'd be interested as to what Android has done to improve the iPhone.

It hasn't yet, but hopefully it will make iOS have turn by turn navigation and a better maps application. It also makes sure prices won't get ridiculous.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

It also makes sure prices won't get ridiculous.

This I find to be the most valid point. But then again, the iPad debuted way cheaper than we thought it would to no competition.

Apple is screwy that way.

[driven]

I agree with imitchellg5. Notifications are the absolute worst thing about iOS, and EVERYONE (even my puppy) implements it better.

I have a soft spot for Palm. Treo 650 was among my favorite smart phones. I still miss it. The Treo 750 was about the best WinMobile phone I owned, even though the hardware was behind the HTC Tilt. Weird to think that there are no more Treo devices.

Anyway: back on track: I'd like to see a PalmOS device succeed.

Right now my favorite devices are iOS (by far). I like the WinPhone 7 devices. I'm waiting to see what HP turns out with TheCompanyFormerlyKnownAsPalm.

I didn't mention Android. Mama always said "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

[driven]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

You're obviously neglecting he tremendous impact the Zune has had on the iPod's evolution.

ROFL

For competition to actually be effective, there needs to be competition. Zune isn't competition. It's a footnote.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by driven 

For competition to actually be effective, there needs to be competition. Zune isn't competition. It's a footnote.

I disagree, unless you're talking about Zune hardware. Zune hardware is a fail, but Zune software is very compelling. Streaming is impressive and I love how you can purchase content and view or listen without having to actually download it. And if you still want to download it you can. It's very, very smart of Microsoft. I love that I can purchase a 1080p movie on my Xbox and stream it right off the bat. The implementation is great. It's a shame that the original Zune hardware was so lackluster (the Zune HD is decent).