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Big Mac · Jul 23, 2006, 10:42 AM

I have tried fighting it, but I cannot put it off any longer. After never owning a PC in my entire life, it seems I have to break down and buy a PC laptop for work. I, Big Mac, have to buy a PC. Ironically enough, I would have likely gone for a Mactel because of my continued sentimental feelings for Apple, but Apple lost the sale because it chose to force buyers to step up to MBPs in order to get discreet graphics cards; I refuse to pay a lot of money for "inte(l)degraded" graphics. Moreover, you can get a Dell equipped like a MBP for a thousand less (and I'm being generous to Apple with that comparison).

Dude, I think I'm Getting a Dell. . .

chabig · Jul 23, 2006, 10:47 AM

You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how crazy it is.

Would you care to point us to the Dell that is equipped the same as a MBP but costs $1000 less?

Also, the word you were looking for is "discrete" not discreet.

analogika · Jul 23, 2006, 11:03 AM

Jeez, I'm surprised you didn't jump ship when Apple brought out the G4 iBooks - after all, those were vastly inferior to the MacBook in every way imaginable.

AND the Powerbooks were quite a bit more expensive then.

Jeez - $1200 just so you could have FRIGGIN MONITOR SPANNING!? And then the damn thing wasn't even notably faster!!???

At a time when an $800 Dell laptop was running CIRCLES around the $3000 top-of-the-line PowerBook!!!????

WHAT THE **** WERE APPLE THINKING!!!??????

Man, your decision is your decision, but jumping ship NOW that the playing field is level for the first time in five or six years, claiming the MacBooks are underspeced for the price is just about the DUMBEST thing I've read from you so far.

Big Mac · 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by chabig

You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how crazy it is.

Would you care to point us to the Dell that is equipped the same as a MBP but costs $1000 less?

Also, the word you were looking for is "discrete" not discreet.

Sorry about the spelling slip of the homophone. If you don't believe me about the price of a comparable Dell, just go configure one online for yourself.

Big Mac · Jul 23, 2006, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

Man, your decision is your decision, but jumping ship NOW that the playing field is level for the first time in five or six years, claiming the MacBooks are underspeced for the price is just about the DUMBEST thing I've read from you so far.

The point is, I already have my G5 and iBook (although its aging), and I really, unfortunately, need to run Windows. So it makes far more sense to get a Dell or an HP in this situation, considering the superior specs and pricing. If I needed a new Mac, I would likely get a Mactel. If Apple had given dedicated graphics to the MacBooks, I would likely get a MacBook. If the MBP weren't that much higher in price, I likely would get a MBP. None of those conditions were met by Apple. This machine is going to be running Windows primarily, and I don't want to be spending a lot of money on it. So Dell or HP seem to be the right choice.

rickey939 · Jul 23, 2006, 11:18 AM

Best of luck to you.

willed · Jul 23, 2006, 11:25 AM

Bye now.

TETENAL · Jul 23, 2006, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

If you don't believe me about the price of a comparable Dell, just go configure one online for yourself.

Could you walk us through? Cause I can't find a notebook under €2000 with dedicated grahpics on Dell's German web-site.

Big Mac · Jul 23, 2006, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by willed

Bye now.

LOL, you guys are funny. Sounds like a really upset some apple carts here by telling people that it makes more sense for me to get a PC TO RUN WINDOWS ON.

Big Mac · Jul 23, 2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Could you walk us through? Cause I can't find a notebook under €2000 with dedicated grahpics on Dell's German web-site.

I don't know about the German Dell site, but you BTO it here in the US store.

analogika · Jul 23, 2006, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Sorry about the spelling slip of the homophone. If you don't believe me about the price of a comparable Dell, just go configure one online for yourself.

Show us, please.

The Dell website hates me (and vice versa); I have tried several times to find a machine comparable to the MacBook and failed miserably.

TETENAL · Jul 23, 2006, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I don't know about the German Dell site, but you BTO it here in the US store.

And could you walk us through, please?

Big Mac · Jul 23, 2006, 11:35 AM

You can configure a E1505, which starts a something like $649, with a choce of discrete cards. You also have your choice of Core Duos. However, I missed out on a good coupon at the Dell site, so I have a few prospects on eBay I'm looking at.

ghporter · Jul 23, 2006, 11:45 AM

I just got my son an Inspiron E1505 (BTO with a nice fast drive) for school this fall. His program depends on Windows software (including some programming environments), so he really did "need" a PC. And this one has a 1.6GHz Core Duo processor, 1GB of RAM and a really nice screen. It's light (WAY lighter than the behemoth Dell laptop I've been hauling to school while saving up for my MBP) and handy and attractive. It only has two stickers on it too!

There's no shame in getting the right tool for the job. Would you be upset at having to use a Craftsman wrench because the Snap-On guy wasn't around when you needed a certain size? A computer isn't like a religion or something, it's just a machine. Some machines are nicer and more fun to use than others, that's all.

Dark Helmet · Jul 23, 2006, 11:53 AM

Does that mean since Apple no longer offers PowerPC's you're gone for good?

BRussell · Jul 23, 2006, 11:55 AM

Wow, if you're a long-time Mac user who also needs to run windows, I'd think that now would be the perfect time to buy a Mac. For what type of work do you need the dedicated graphics card?

qnxde · Jul 23, 2006, 12:01 PM

I think you should just put aside your unfounded phobia about the MacBook's integrated graphics and just buy a mac.

analogika · Jul 23, 2006, 12:02 PM

Okay.

E1505, 15.4 inch display (cheapest crap display option) with an Intel Core Duo 1.83GHz, 533MHz bus (MacBook has 667MHz), 60GB hard drive + WLAN + Bluetooth (Macbook has BT 2.0) + 128MB Radeon X1300 is at $1022 WITHOUT included software, with standard XP home (not media ed.), and no remote.

There is no gigabit ethernet option, but it does come with an analog modem (whatever you might need that for).

It also weighs a good six pounds.

I am unable to access any further options because the craptacular website won't do anything when I hit "continue".

Doesn't look all that good compared to the MacBook, though I'll give you that it's a lot cheaper than the MacBook Pro.

If you add the best display, XP Media Center and Remote, and an 80GB drive, it's at $1215.

Except:
I'm betting it only has a VGA out.
100base Ethernet.
more than 20% heavier.
quite a bit larger.

Expansion slot? Is there one?

Battery life? The 85Wh battery is an extra $100, and I'll bet an extra half-pound.

Still looks okay if you NEED the dedicated graphics.

Unfortunately, it won't properly run Mac OS X.

Jawbone54 · Jul 23, 2006, 12:02 PM

Get used to this feeling.

Kerrigan · Jul 23, 2006, 12:07 PM

chabig · Jul 23, 2006, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

You can configure a E1505, which starts a something like $649, with a choce of discrete cards. You also have your choice of Core Duos. However, I missed out on a good coupon at the Dell site, so I have a few prospects on eBay I'm looking at.

I configure the E1505 with 2GHz processor and it came out to almost $1600. Tha'ts $400 less than the equivalent MacBook Pro.

Chris

Hawkeye_a · Jul 23, 2006, 12:13 PM

I just got a 20" iMac....and there's no way in hell im putting Windows on it in any shape and form...but thats just me.

If you ask me, i think its a good think you got a PC to run windows(since thats what you actually need).... leave the Mac alone as far as windows i reckon.

And it is sad that there is such a price difference... but if prices were lower...they wouldnt be able to keep up with demand, etc. its the economics of the matter. Although once the market share experiences sustained growth, production would increase leading to lower prices.....so given the current trend, i see prices falling in the short term.

Prices, specs and graphics cards aside...... my roomate(idiot) just baught a Vaio...and the "coolest" thing he could talk about was a button on the side he could use to turn wi-fi on and off. go figure. Sure, it was cheaper(AU$100), with a bigger screen(15") and a graphics card compared to the high end macbook..... but it clearly lacked style, size, weight, front row, isight and a core-duo processor. And this is a Vaio, supposedly the "Apple" of the Wintel world.

Anyway...if u need windows, buy a box designed to run Windows and leave the Macs out of the mess(Windows).

Cheers

Hawkeye_a · Jul 23, 2006, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by qnxde

I think you should just put aside your unfounded phobia about the MacBook's integrated graphics and just buy a mac.

In a way i agree....im not used to playing games on my mac....and probably wont even though i have a graphics card on my new iMac. And the macbook seems perfectly capable on handling anything else....just get the ram upgrade and ull be fine.

Big Mac · Jul 23, 2006, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

There's no shame in getting the right tool for the job.

That’s true, although I would have disputed that fact prior to the switch. Some of you will recall that not too long ago I posted a thread that implied most PC purchasers regret their purchase.

And in truth I still do not want to buy a PC, but it is necessary. I wanted to get a Mactel, but I just cannot justify it in this case, mostly because this will be a Windows machine and secondarily because the MacBooks do not have discrete graphics. If Apple had given even one high end configuration of the MacBook with a real graphics card, I would have probably paid the premium and gotten a MacBook instead.

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Does that mean since Apple no longer offers PowerPC's you're gone for good?

I don’t know if I’m gone for good in terms of new purchases of Apple hardware. As I stated, I would have preferred to get a MacBook. I’ll probably get a Mactel in the future, after this defection is complete. The truth is, though, that at least in my case Apple’s switch has made future hardware purchases less likely.

Originally Posted by BRussell

Wow, if you're a long-time Mac user who also needs to run windows, I'd think that now would be the perfect time to buy a Mac. For what type of work do you need the dedicated graphics card?

It would be a great time to buy a Mac, and if Apple had given me the specs I wanted I would have likely gone that way. Technically, though, I’ll admit that since don’t love this Intel defection, that’s one strike against Apple. But I also simply do not think integrated graphics is a good value proposition at all. And since I have to get my first PC anyway (whether or its a PC or a Mactel), I want to have the option to play some decent PC games.

angelmb · Jul 23, 2006, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Anyway...if u need windows, buy a box designed to run Windows and leave the Macs out of the mess(Windows).

Cheers

Seconded, no Mac deserves to run windows full time.

goMac · Jul 23, 2006, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Sorry about the spelling slip of the homophone. If you don't believe me about the price of a comparable Dell, just go configure one online for yourself.

I have for work. Best I could do is a few hundred dollar difference.

ghporter · Jul 23, 2006, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

Okay.

E1505, 15.4 inch display (cheapest crap display option) with an Intel Core Duo 1.83GHz, 533MHz bus (MacBook has 667MHz), 60GB hard drive + WLAN + Bluetooth (Macbook has BT 2.0) + 128MB Radeon X1300 is at $1022 WITHOUT included software, with standard XP home (not media ed.), and no remote.

There is no gigabit ethernet option, but it does come with an analog modem (whatever you might need that for).

It also weighs a good six pounds.

I am unable to access any further options because the craptacular website won't do anything when I hit "continue".

Doesn't look all that good compared to the MacBook, though I'll give you that it's a lot cheaper than the MacBook Pro.

If you add the best display, XP Media Center and Remote, and an 80GB drive, it's at $1215.

Except:
I'm betting it only has a VGA out.
100base Ethernet.
more than 20% heavier.
quite a bit larger.

Expansion slot? Is there one?

Battery life? The 85Wh battery is an extra $100, and I'll bet an extra half-pound.

Still looks okay if you NEED the dedicated graphics.

Unfortunately, it won't properly run Mac OS X.

You're right, only VGA out-and no option for DVI. Broadcom 10/100 NIC on board is what you get. The laptop is probably not noticably heavier, but it is bulkier than a MacBook. There IS an expansion slot-an Express slot (the full size one). My son's new machine also came with an SD card reader built in.

Not a replacement for a Mac by any means. But for what a 19 year old budding computer scientist needs (at this school), it works just fine (and I got a special deal on his, too).

mduell · Jul 23, 2006, 12:33 PM

Buying an MBP to run Windows is never going to make sense. You're going to pay about a $500 premium for OSX, marginally thinner/lighter hardware, and Apple's unique features (backlit keyboard, dual link DVI, remote, webcam, etc).

Angus_D · Jul 23, 2006, 12:37 PM

My black MacBook, despite having the GMA950, is the best at doing graphics out of any of the Macs I've owned. It certainly does Core Image stuff. Admittedly I don't play games on it, but if I wanted to play games I'd use my PS2 (and if I was bothered about them I'd probably buy an Xbox 360 or something).

BRussell · Jul 23, 2006, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

It would be a great time to buy a Mac, and if Apple had given me the specs I wanted I would have likely gone that way. Technically, though, I’ll admit that since don’t love this Intel defection, that’s one strike against Apple. But I also simply do not think integrated graphics is a good value proposition at all. And since I have to get my first PC anyway (whether or its a PC or a Mactel), I want to have the option to play some decent PC games.

Then I agree, it definitely doesn't make sense to buy a MacBook Pro just to play PC games.

I have a MacBook Pro, but my work paid for it. I wouldn't buy it if I had to pay for it myself.

Peter · Jul 23, 2006, 12:43 PM

Whatever the premium of a Mac, its worth it just to run OS X.

Chuckit · Jul 23, 2006, 01:18 PM

Running the numbers, the Dell is about $1350 to the MacBook Pro's $2000. Add to that the fact that I've heard about zero good things regarding Dell's laptop quality and I'm thinking the MPB is not such a bad deal.

But if it's for running Windows, there's no real point in wasting quality hardware on it anyway.

mduell · Jul 23, 2006, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I don’t know if I’m gone for good in terms of new purchases of Apple hardware. As I stated, I would have preferred to get a MacBook. I’ll probably get a Mactel in the future, after this defection is complete. The truth is, though, that at least in my case Apple’s switch has made future hardware purchases less likely.

So you need to run Windows, and because you can now run Windows natively instead of in some ass-slow emulator, now you're less inclined to buy a Mac?
I understand the discrete graphics thing, and I won't buy a laptop without them. But I'm willing to pay $2k for an MBP with discrete graphics if it has worthwhile features (HD screen and eSATA are the two big ones at the moment).

Some other posters seem to be confusing RAM speed with FSB, and are looking at the wrong product lines if they want to match some features (like GigE).

D620 starts at $899; add $140 for 2Ghz, $99 for XP Pro, $60 for discrete Quadro graphics (still use some system memory, but also have a pittance of VRAM), $249 for 2x1GB DDR2-667, $39 for 80GB 5400RPM, $99 for a DVD burner, $29 for Intel wifi, $29 for BT, and $29 for 9 cell battery.

And you've got a $1672 14" Dell that falls between a $2098 13" MB and a $2848 15" MBP, ignoring software differences because you probably already own it on both sides.

Big Mac · 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

S But I'm willing to pay $2k for an MBP with discrete graphics if it has worthwhile features (HD screen and eSATA are the two big ones at the moment).

That's the big difference, I don't want to spend that much money right now. If I can get a good deal on a PC, I'll do that now. In the future, when I can justify spending twice as much on a laptop, I'll probably go with a Mactel. Yet, Apple could have sold me on a MacBook if it had decent graphics. Either they thought it would cannibalize MBP sales too much, or they were just being cheap, but it was a bad call not to offer a high end MacBook with a decent card.

production_coordinator · Jul 23, 2006, 01:50 PM

We lose one to gain many...

I'm not surprised Big Mac is buying a Dell. From day one, he was against the transition to Intel... and this is just another example of you voicing his stance against it.

While he is entitled to his opinion, I firmly believe the transition was a solid business and technological decision.

Good for him that he's buying a Dell, but I would be much happier with a MacBook or MacBook Pro for an additional few hundred dollars (and that's not always the case as the MacBook is a great value).

DeathToWindows · Jul 23, 2006, 02:09 PM

I picked up a MBP (1.83) back in June and was paid by my employer to put Boot Camp on it - and they paid for my copy of XP. Admittedly, I work for a university and my boss also has a MBP, but I couldn't be happier.

loki74 · Jul 23, 2006, 02:30 PM

Seriously, what's the huge deal with buying a PC?

PC's have their place... namely, when you don't need to be using them directly, and when you need to run Windows and Windows only.

For example, if I needed a renderfarm, I would probably use PC's...

But if you need to be actually working on it, or it is possible that you would want to run OSX just maybe, I say being able to run OSX is worth the extra cost, regardless of graphics card.

I mean, don't forget how much money you'll spend on antivirus, anti-spyware, security, etc. That could add up pretty quickly to the 1K you save.

TETENAL · Jul 23, 2006, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by loki74

I mean, don't forget how much money you'll spend on antivirus, anti-spyware, security, etc. That could add up pretty quickly to the 1K you save.

Yes, obviously. If you are running OS X the $600 extra over the Dell are worth it for your sanity. But since he needs to run Windows only, getting the Dell might be the right choice. The irony is just this reasoning. The MacBook is better than any other Apple-notebook ever before, dedicated graphics or not. But he hates the Intel-switch so much that instead of an Intel-Mac he is getting a Dell with an Intel-processor. That's the irony. I don't understand this, but then again I don't have to understand everything.

Anyway, if I needed a Windows-only machine, I most likely wouldn't get a Mac too. Neither a Dell though. If Dell's website foretells the user-friendlyness of their machines, the experience with them can't anything but suck.

Angus_D · Jul 23, 2006, 04:22 PM

Well, no, in fairness he really wants a graphics processor with its own VRAM. Which is a valid lifestyle choice.

voodoo · Jul 23, 2006, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Angus_D

Well, no, in fairness he really wants a graphics processor with its own VRAM. Which is a valid lifestyle choice.

V

rambo47 · Jul 23, 2006, 08:52 PM

Just remember you will be responsible for the death of yet another kitten. Every time someone buys a Dell, Mikey Dell murders a baby kitten. But hey, if you can live with that kind of thing, go for it.

ghporter · Jul 23, 2006, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by loki74

I mean, don't forget how much money you'll spend on antivirus, anti-spyware, security, etc. That could add up pretty quickly to the 1K you save.

Spend about $50 on Norton Personal Security (and less than $10/year for the update subscription). It includes a firewall (that's pretty darn good) and one of the best PC antivirus engines there is. Spybot-Search and Destroy is free. So are most adware and spyware finder/remover apps. No big deal pricewise. It does take a little effort to set up any of this, but it stays set up and doesn't need attention if you do it right (automatic updates, for example-my PC does this daily because I'm paranoid).

The big thing is that Windows is clunky, not well integrated and built to allow bad programs to do bad things to the OS in very bad ways, and OS X is not like this at all. I WANT a MBP, but what I have now is a Dell laptop that works ok and for now that's fine.

The Godfather · Jul 23, 2006, 09:52 PM

You know the routine of starting a PC: antivirus, firewall, Ad-aware and Firefox.

Then, don't blow away the $500 savings in superfluous things.

Salty · Jul 23, 2006, 10:44 PM

OK you're ticked that you won't have great graphics, but you already have a G5 with that super superior chip, why would you want great graphics in a laptop as well?

brassplayersrock² · Jul 23, 2006, 11:02 PM

TheoCryst · Jul 24, 2006, 02:22 AM

Originally Posted by Salty

OK you're ticked that you won't have great graphics, but you already have a G5 with that super superior chip, why would you want great graphics in a laptop as well?

He said it was for the PC games, which are obviously inaccessible on a G5.

And for the record, I see nothing wrong with what Big Mac is doing. If you just need Windows for a few apps, there's no point in getting anything else than a cheap Win lappy. Granted, I would wait until WWDC before I got one, just to see if Apple has anything interesting to say about the MBs, but otherwise go for it. Plus, if you wanted, you could always pick up a hobby, such as getting OS X installed on it... I mean NO DON'T DO THAT! IT'S ILLEGAL!!!! NO WAREZ!!!1!

Salty · Jul 24, 2006, 03:56 AM

Then why buy a laptop?

Y3a · Jul 24, 2006, 04:44 AM

Serious Graphics on a laptop??? LOL With how much RAM??? LOL

harrisjamieh · Jul 24, 2006, 04:45 AM

Does the Dell come with a health care package so that you don't have to pay to fix your broken back after lugging the machine around for a few years?

And oh, the irony, Big Mac is dead against Intel, yet he is buying an Intel powered Dell.

ghporter · Jul 24, 2006, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by harrisjamieh

Does the Dell come with a health care package so that you don't have to pay to fix your broken back after lugging the machine around for a few years?

And oh, the irony, Big Mac is dead against Intel, yet he is buying an Intel powered Dell.

The Inspiron E1505 weighs in at 6.18 pounds. A MacBook weighs in at 5.2 pounds and the MBP at 5.6 pounds for the 15" and 6.8 pounds for the 17". I'm sure that extra pound or less is going to make a HUGE difference in how you feel after carrying it for a while.

Seriously, the differences in portability and power are smaller and smaller every day. The irony of Big Mac's statements notwithstanding, buying a Dell because you need a dedicated Windows machine is not a denial of the world of Macs.