[mojo2]

http://jewishworldreview.com/0805/chafets_sharon.php3



August 18, 2005

Understanding the real Ariel Sharon

By Zev Chafets

Many have questioned how the "godfather of the settlements" could be orchestrating their destruction. The author, a long-time Middle East analyst and anything but a religious Zionist, offers a reality check about the Israeli prime minister — who he really is and what, if anything, he really stood for.

Agree or disagree, this column will surely leave you thinking.

Ariel Sharon is not a Christian. He doesn't believe that the meek will inherit the earth. He doesn't love his enemies. Put him on the road to Damascus and he is more apt to channel George Patton than Saul of Tarsus.

Lately, though, Mr. Sharon seems to have undergone some sort of conversion. He's become a proponent of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. He's authorized the release of Palestinian prisoners. He went to Sharm el Sheik, Egypt, and, with the whole world watching, warmly took the hand of Mahmoud Abbas. It wasn't the first time Mr. Sharon had been photographed shaking hands with a Palestinian leader, but it was the first time he ever looked happy about it.


Some believe that Mr. Sharon — the symbol of intransigent hawkishness — has seen the light of nonviolence. But this misunderstands the man and the moment. Ariel Sharon hasn't found a new language or a new religion; he has simply embraced a new leader: George W. Bush.


Mr. Sharon is often portrayed as a Machiavellian geo-strategist. But he is no visionary. In more than 50 years in public life, he has never uttered a thought larger than "Charge!" He is, in fact, a born trouble-shooter, the brilliantly effective clenched fist of a string of mentors stretching from Israel's first prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, to the 43d president of the United States.



In the early 1950's, when the Israeli Army proved incapable of dealing with Arab incursions, Ben-Gurion reached out to a young infantry officer, Ariel Sharon. He ordered Mr. Sharon to raise and lead a commando unit able to play by local rules. Mr. Sharon responded by staging bloody retaliatory actions that announced Israel's readiness to fight dirty.


This was the start of Ariel Sharon's career as the Israeli Luca Brasi. Like the character from "The Godfather," Mr. Sharon was a willing instrument, but only in the hands of godfathers (and mothers) whose authority he accepted.


After the Six-Day War, Prime Minister Golda Meir sent Mr. Sharon to the Gaza Strip with a simple assignment: Put down terrorism. He was so successful that Gaza remained largely quiet for the next 20 years.


In 1973, the Egyptian Army launched a surprise attack across the Suez Canal. Ariel Sharon, then a retired general, was chosen by Meir and Defense Minister Moshe Dayan — another lifelong mentor — to lead a counterattack. Mr. Sharon's army wound up closing in on Cairo, and only a cease-fire kept him from going all the way to the pyramids.


In 1977, Menachem Begin came to power with a vision of incorporating (he would have said "reincorporating") all the lands of Biblical Israel and Judea into the modern state of Israel. That meant building settlements in occupied territory. The Arabs, of course, were bitterly opposed. International opinion was hostile. The Carter administration called the settlements illegal. Many Israelis were against the idea. Begin summoned Mr. Sharon. Though building "greater Israel" wasn't his idea, he embraced it with customary zeal. Soon settlements were going up all over.


Then, Begin cut a peace deal with Egypt that required evacuating Sinai. Mr. Sharon knocked some of his own settlements down with efficiency and emotional detachment. He didn't complain. It was an assignment.


In 1982, Begin ordered Ariel Sharon, then defense minister, to invade Lebanon. The idea was to stop Palestinian terrorists from attacking Israel's northern border. But Begin also thought that defeating the Palestinian Liberation Army in Lebanon would weaken its influence in the West Bank and Gaza. He also believed that Israel could install a friendly Christian government in Beirut. The plan failed. Mr. Sharon, blamed for failing to prevent a massacre of Palestinians at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, was forced out of the Defense Ministry. Begin grew ill and resigned. Mr. Sharon was on his own.


A succession of prime ministers feared and mistrusted Ariel Sharon. They kept him at a distance and occupied him with busywork. For years he drifted. After the Oslo accords, with peace apparently at hand, he seemed to be a relic.


The intifada saved him. Ehud Barak's government panicked in the face of suicide bombers. This time it was the public that summoned Mr. Sharon, electing him prime minister in 2001 with a clear mandate: Restore order. It took a while — he was rusty — but Mr. Sharon did the job. The question then became: What next?


Enter George W. Bush. During the intifada, Mr. Bush had impressed Mr. Sharon by letting him fight. The president's critics called this "American disengagement." In fact, it was a shrewd confidence builder. Throughout his career, Mr. Sharon never trusted foreigners; he manipulated them. But Mr. Bush was different — the two men thought alike. Mr. Bush disdained Yasir Arafat. He put Israeli security ahead of Israeli concessions. And he was willing to use force. After Saddam Hussein was overthrown, Mr. Sharon embraced George W. Bush as his godfather in a shared cause, the war on Islamic extremism.


Like all of Mr. Sharon's leaders, Mr. Bush has a plan — pacifying Palestine by creating an independent, democratic Arab state next to Israel. Once, under Begin or Meir, Ariel Sharon would have killed to prevent such a vision. Today, in the face of threats from Israeli extremists, he is ready to die trying to make it real.

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Perhaps you should stop saying "you guys". And the list goes on.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And you were quite busy killing each other up until 60 years ago. And perhaps you need to study the Palestine-Israel issue a bit better to understand the role of Christians in it?

I think von Wrangell needs to wake up and smell the ****.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Oh and...by the way...women are more equal in our society, we dont force culture on others...you are allowed to wear, eat, beleive, see, hear, speak, whatever you want.

This is, in many ways, a matter of perspective. To many Muslims in the Middle East, we Westerners abuse our women horribly by doing the very things which we believe make them equals. Most Middle Eastern Muslims would say that their women are treated equally. I wouldn't agree with that, but I'm just trying to clue you into the fact that you are treading on shaky ground with this argument.

And people here seem to try and seperate religion and church, when was the last time someone in the middle eastern nations lobbied to remove religion from their government and administration ?

Separating religion and church? Don't you mean 'church and state'? In any case, this is a uniquely American sentiment. Most Western nations, even in Europe, don't do this; Canada is officially Protestant, Spain and Italy (and most of Central and South America) are officially Catholic, the UK is officially Anglican, Germany has several state-sponsored religions, France is outright schizophrenic (lacking an official religion but sponsoring several and hostile to others), and so forth. Most people in those nations, however, would argue that they have greater religious freedom than Americans do; again, I wouldn't agree, but once again we're dealing with a matter of perspective.

We beleive in the same God, but where Jesus gives you a choice, Mohammed forces you to submit, and that makes all the diffeerence.

Jesus doesn't give all that much of a choice; Christianity still considers its particular faith to be the only path to salvation, much like Islam. Christianity's attitude towards nonbelievers may be a little warmer than Islam's, but it's not exactly Universalism (except, of course, when it is).

You should live in the middle east dude, people there are just as currupt, lustful, greedy,etc...like anywhere else. the problem is they drag religion into it, and use that as a justification to look down on and hate others. you guys gotta figure that out for yourselves. Christianity, Hinduism, Jewdaism, Budhism,etc...have all grown past that.

I know of a few people in Kansas (the Southern Baptists), Kashmir (Shiv Sena), Gaza (the Gush Emunim), and Japan (the Soka Gakkai) who would probably like to have a word with you about that.

Islam is still stuck in the past millenium especially when the rubber meets the asphault. After all religion is a way of life....the rest of the world has changed, and Islam hasnt. Maybe thats the problem ?

Either that, or it's going through what I call a 'religious adolescent phase' that seems to strike just about every major religion when it reaches 1000-1500 years of age. Judaism and Christianity did it, and Hinduism did it too. Even Buddhism did it, and nowadays they're just about the last religion that most Westerners would suspect of being able to support militancy. Islam is right on schedule to be going through this. It will recover, as other religions have, assuming it survives (and given its size it probably will), but I can't say for sure when it will happen. Most of the other religions' adolescent phases lasted for at least a century or two, and Islam has only recently started its own by comparison. This may take a while.

[funkboy]

Originally Posted by Millennium

... it's going through what I call a 'religious adolescent phase' that seems to strike just about every major religion when it reaches 1000-1500 years of age. Judaism and Christianity did it, and Hinduism did it too. Even Buddhism did it, and nowadays they're just about the last religion that most Westerners would suspect of being able to support militancy. Islam is right on schedule to be going through this. It will recover, as other religions have, assuming it survives (and given its size it probably will), but I can't say for sure when it will happen. Most of the other religions' adolescent phases lasted for at least a century or two, and Islam has only recently started its own by comparison. This may take a while.

This observation blows my mind. How astute... and how peculiar. I think you have all the makings of a best-seller with this premise!

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

I think von Wrangell needs to wake up and smell the ****.

I did that to see how he would react to being thrown in with a group that has in fact nothing to do with Christianity. He's been throwing me and every single Muslim in with OBL and the House of Saudi and I just thought he'd deserve the same. I shouldn't do that but I'm tired of being labeled a terrorist, terrorist sympathiser, Jew-hater, Jew-killer, and the list goes on just because I'm a Muslim. OK?

[von Wrangell]

to Millenium.

Only one problem with his post above is that it's not the religion that goes through the transition but it's the people who follow that religion. Islam like Christianity is the same as it was from the start (mostly). It's the people whom have changed.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Millennium

You may want to revise your list a bit. In several of your cases, such as Serbia and Bosnia, Muslims didn't play the role you claim they did: they were instead victims of attempted genocide. There have certainly been many wars in which the aggressor happened to be Muslim, but if you intended to make a list of such conflicts then it needs a little pruning.

Yes, well... Serbia and Bosnia...Muslims were the victims, but lets not forget that that general area has been involved in the Christian vs Muslim conflic for centuries now. what with Vlad the impaler, the crusades, etc in that part of the world.... trying to fend off Muslim armies invading Europe.genocide can never be justified and i stand by that...but lets not forget who came to the rescue and who didnt. I was merely pointing out the conflicts that the muslim world has been involved it. The nature of conflicts means there are disagreements...and no other community in the 21st century seems to be so stuck i nits ways that it is at odds with pretty much the rest of the world.

von Wrangell:
von Wrangle seems to think im a biggot because i support freedom of choice for muslims and christians and everyone....democracy. allowed to choose the standards they live by as opposed to having an ancient text dictate everything from dress code, etc to them. obviously ull have the fanatics like von wrangle, wholl choose to dress like they did back in the stone age....but thats his choice and i respect that, civil rights, human rights, civil liberties and rights, personal choice have no bearing in his idea muslim world. And thats the problem.

When France chose to ban headscalves it wasnt as bad as S.Arabia having us live in mini cities with no contact or freedom to go anywhere. not to mention forcing women to cover up head to toe. Culture ?.....sure...come to the west, you can cover urself up if u want to....where as the culture in the mid east is the opposite...do what they want, not what you want, even though it dosent effect anyone.

As far as many wives lol...yeah....great reason for a double standard dude. discriminate ur women...im sure they love to be opressed....OR maybe if they were allowed to choose they'd be better off...but alas that isnt allowed. after all why would a male dominant society want to give up that power ? The west went through it....and women are more equal now, and as a male in the western world i am ashamed that it didnt happen sooner. The ME (with the exception of Israel) is stuck in the year 2005 with laws from 1000 odd years ago. lol

My criticizums of Islam isnt a cultural aassault no matter how hard you try to make it out to be. By all means, be ashamed of your bodies and cover it up if you want, thats your right. Dont eat pork....(even though in this day and age there arent any problems with it)...more for us. Abstain from alcohol (and use opium and hasheesh instead....good choice...much more potent).once again more for us. lol

if muslim clerics were advising muslims to look 'less muslim' in the west....theyre not focing them are they ? or better yet...can they ? If muslims choose to look less muslim, because of what other muslims did to their community...whos fault is that ? Maybe Muslim clerics shouldnt have started the problem of villifying Israel and the west in the first place.

You keep criticizing the west for all its faults....yet you seem to take good advantage of all the benfits it's brought the world.....computers, internet, cars, aircrafts, phones, sports(such as horse racing, hunting and golf, which Arab men(especially in the UAE) are obsessed with) televisions, space exploration, clothes(And i should point out.....muslim women and girls love the fashion of the west, and they spend thousands on it as well...but they cover it up because their male companing wouldnt appreciate the prostitute he brings home to see his indescent wife) etc.....shouldnt you be boycotting all these things that have been made by evil hands and wrongdooers ? lets count the contributions the Islamic world has made to the world....(notice i say islamic...im perfectly aware that perfumes, paper, soap, numbers, etc...all originated in that area before Islam took over).

If the west truely was 'EVIL' as u claim, we wouldnt have shared that technology with the rest of the world, and the middle east(with the exception of Israel) would be literally stuck in the stone age) lol.

[lil'babykitten]

Hawkeye, lay off the crack pipe will you?

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I did that to see how he would react to being thrown in with a group that has in fact nothing to do with Christianity. He's been throwing me and every single Muslim in with OBL and the House of Saudi and I just thought he'd deserve the same. I shouldn't do that but I'm tired of being labeled a terrorist, terrorist sympathiser, Jew-hater, Jew-killer, and the list goes on just because I'm a Muslim. OK?

Maybe stop playing the victim constantly? Maybe stop blaming the west and the U.S. in particlar for once in a while? Maybe start reading a bit more about the history of that region? It is almost impossible to critize Islam or the M.E. for anything that might be wrong without being called a racist or whatever.

[Hawkeye_a]

Millenium. good post.

I should have stated that in general thats the 'attitude' i nthe middle east. Not every muslim is like that, but many are. As for living in the middle east......4 years in Jordan, 12 in the UAE. i do have a little perspective i beleive .

And in no means am i glorifying christianity and the other world religions, there isnt one thats perfect. But thats the point though isnt it ? the west hasfinally figured that out and is therefore welcoming to anyone (except islamist terrorists of course...and that probably makes us racist).

As for women...and what we do. choice eleviates blame. If women in our society want to be more conservative they can do so. trying to control the evolution of culture to that extent in my opinion is extreme. just as it would be if the catholic church told what i could and couldnt eat, and that id goto hell if i did otherwise. to me, life is not worth living if i have to have all my choices made up for me (for some reason im getting pictures of Aumish(or whatever) ppl in my head...anyway). And call it cultural difference, but if muslim women wanted to hold onto their veils theyre free to do so....i dont like the idea of someone forcing them to, by censoring what they see on television, or controlling what they read in books to the extent that S.Arabia and iran does.

Inform people of the choices they have, and let them make the choice for themselves. if thats western culture well then yes im guilty of thinking it's better. After all the muslim world has adopted everything from the west...and there's nothing NOTHING wrong with that. And we use a loto f what the middle east has to offer as well...oil(ironically). But also things like the Arabian horses, the gazelles, the food...homus, kebabs, etc. personally, i grew up eating lebaneeses bread, and i still do.i dont see my local parish preach telling me im evil because i have adopted some aspects of muslim culture. You see women in England wearing traditional indian costumes and jewlery, or an australian cowboy wearing an american cowboy hat, while eating in a malaysian resturant drinking a budweiser watching "norwegian idol" with his japaneeses wife. And yet the middle east closes it's doors and forces it's peopel from experiencing all this 'life' outside ? well they take the choice away for the women...but if a muslim man weds a non-muslim woman thats alright.

If most of the world religions have accepted that in order to get along you need to at least TRY and be tolerant, why is it the oposite in the Muslim world ? why are clerics preaching hate ?...could they be intrepreting the Koran 'wrong' ? i dont know...

As far as the Catholic church goes as well...it isnt the most tolerant, iin fact id say its the most conservative of the christian faiths. And look where thats got it....and therefore , it's changing as well....The Pope...his role seems vastly different from that of popes in ages gone. And thankfully hes doing a lot of good for people, and trying to promote peace. John Paul II was almost assinated(by a Muslim dude i might add)....even though he was never hostile towards anyone....as far as i know.

None of us are perfect.....and far be it from me to claim the west is the greatest. I mean American forign policy is deplorable imo. And you know what...there are americans who are fighting and criticizing that...and whatever changes are made...will be for the better for the benefit for all people involved. In the middle east...when was the last time you heard of a revolt ?i think it was the kurds, and before that the iranians. how about a protest ? condeming 9/11 in S.Arabia ? and askingtheir government to crack down on that sort of thing ? In America you had the civil rights movement....and look at how thats improved our society ?

The list goes on and on...but in the end...all i want to see the muslim world change....is the way they regard people of other faiths and cultures.

trying to control everything to that extent is futile....and dosent help anyone imo. I guess thats why i want Jerusalem to remain with the Israelis.

Incidently....when i was a kid....my parents made a trip to bethlahem and nazareth and jerusalem... when we lived in Jordan(Amman) actually. The embassy even recommended getting a temporary passport before going as having a stamp on your actual passport that you visited Israel could have put their lives in danger. I stayed with an aunt because...my parents didnt want to risk my life with all thats been going on there. But thats the level of idiocy of come people.

Ugh...too much typing...fingers cramping. No more posting in the PL for me....i get too worked up. lol

Ciao Ciao.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Hawkeye, lay off the crack pipe will you?

Duly noted. I get way too worked up in the political lounge. i think it best if i just observe hence forth. Sorry for my rambling you guys.... the thread is yours.

Cheers

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

von Wrangell:
von Wrangle seems to think im a biggot because i support freedom of choice for muslims and christians and everyone....democracy. allowed to choose the standards they live by as opposed to having an ancient text dictate everything from dress code, etc to them. obviously ull have the fanatics like von wrangle, wholl choose to dress like they did back in the stone age....but thats his choice and i respect that, civil rights, human rights, civil liberties and rights, personal choice have no bearing in his idea muslim world. And thats the problem.

Now, you've finalised your label as bigot. Congratulations.

1. At least I'm not hypocritical and choose what verses to believe in my religion. Like each and every Christian does today.
2. That "ancient text" you are talking about is the what 1.5 billion people revere the most. That you are able to show such disrespect to the Holy Quran shows what an ignorant bigot you are. Congratulations.
3. I don't dress like in the stone age. But thanks for showing what your stereotype of a Muslim is.

When France chose to ban headscalves it wasnt as bad as S.Arabia having us live in mini cities with no contact or freedom to go anywhere. not to mention forcing women to cover up head to toe. Culture ?.....sure...come to the west, you can cover urself up if u want to....where as the culture in the mid east is the opposite...do what they want, not what you want, even though it dosent effect anyone.

Now you are lying or completely misunderstood how SA works. Which isn't a big surprise. Westerners are allowed to leave their cities. And who here has claimed that SA is Islamic in its nature except the House of Saud?

As far as many wives lol...yeah....great reason for a double standard dude. discriminate ur women...im sure they love to be opressed....OR maybe if they were allowed to choose they'd be better off...but alas that isnt allowed. after all why would a male dominant society want to give up that power ? The west went through it....and women are more equal now, and as a male in the western world i am ashamed that it didnt happen sooner. The ME (with the exception of Israel) is stuck in the year 2005 with laws from 1000 odd years ago. lol

Again you show a complete lack of understanding of Islam. It's not oppression because if your woman doesn't want you to marry another woman you are not allowed to. And guess what. Want to hear about oppressing women? Check out what Christianity says about divorce and compare it to what Islam says about divorce. Check out what rights women in Christianity have if their husband dies and compare it to the rights of women under Islam if their husband dies. And you aren't allowed to marry a woman against her wish. See, you don't know about Islam but yet you are able to believe that all Muslims are OBL. I really hope your so called Muslim "friends" will be able to see through your unbelievable bigotry. I don't want people to have false friends that talk like that about them and their beliefs behind their backs.

My criticizums of Islam isnt a cultural aassault no matter how hard you try to make it out to be. By all means, be ashamed of your bodies and cover it up if you want, thats your right. Dont eat pork....(even though in this day and age there arent any problems with it)...more for us. Abstain from alcohol (and use opium and hasheesh instead....good choice...much more potent).once again more for us. lol

It has nothing to do with shame, and what is your point about pork? Does it bother you that I don't want to eat pork? You haven't even taken the time to ask me why I don't eat pork. And no, it isn't just because OBL says I can't eat pork. You see, there are 1.5 billion Muslims in this world. And your nice little stereotype is something that doesn't exist. And no, using hashish and opium isn't allowed either. Again, you show you know absolutely nothing about Islam.

if muslim clerics were advising muslims to look 'less muslim' in the west....theyre not focing them are they ? or better yet...can they ? If muslims choose to look less muslim, because of what other muslims did to their community...whos fault is that ? Maybe Muslim clerics shouldnt have started the problem of villifying Israel and the west in the first place.

No, they are advising Muslims to look less Muslims because people like you are likely to pose a threat to us. People like you are able to whip up the anger and hate we see in neo-nazis around Europe today and people like you give them (unknowingly) the moral support needed to rape our women and to attack our women. And no, you can't blame it on OBL just like OBL can't blame it on the West. You are both just as sick and twisted. And no, OBL isn't Muslim but since your stereotype of a Muslim is just like OBL you attack every single Muslim with the venom your tongue delivers. And again, maybe you should show the least bit of understanding of topics like Israel and Islam before you go on and villify about 1.5 billion people in this world.

You keep criticizing the west for all its faults....yet you seem to take good advantage of all the benfits it's brought the world.....computers, internet, cars, aircrafts, phones, sports(such as horse racing, hunting and golf, which Arab men(especially in the UAE) are obsessed with) televisions, space exploration, clothes(And i should point out.....muslim women and girls love the fashion of the west, and they spend thousands on it as well...but they cover it up because their male companing wouldnt appreciate the prostitute he brings home to see his indescent wife) etc.....shouldnt you be boycotting all these things that have been made by evil hands and wrongdooers ? lets count the contributions the Islamic world has made to the world....(notice i say islamic...im perfectly aware that perfumes, paper, soap, numbers, etc...all originated in that area before Islam took over).

Computers, the internet, cars, aircrafts, phones and technology like that all stems from mathematics. And I'm not going to force feed you information but I'm going to give you a hint. Try to find out when mathematics took a huge jump forward. Also try to find out from were the numerals you use come from.

And of course they love fashion of the west. All humans love something that isn't good for them. And no, I shouldn't boycott it because it comes from the West. Do you want to know why? Because I'm not the same as you. I don't put one stereotype on every Westerner and judge everyone from that. That's the difference between you and me. You've already judged me as wearing stoneage clothes, terrorist sympathiser, Jew-hater, and a misogynist. And yet I'm none of those things. I wear normal clothes which would make you not think for a second that I was a Muslim, I've fought against terrorism probably more than most both with my hands and with my mind, I'm not a Jew hater by far and I have fought against anti-semitism more than most with both my hands and mind and at last, I'm engaged to a very free spirited Western woman. All your stereotypes are sickening and I'm sick and tired of having to tell you what I am just because you found out I'm a Muslim. No one who I haven't told I'm Muslim have the slightest clue that I am a Muslim. Your stereotype does only accomplish one thing. To hurt me and my Muslim brothers and to cause more extremism on both sides. It's time for you to understand that before the time comes when we might need to fight it out. Because at that time only God might have mercy on your soul because I definitely won't.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

Maybe stop playing the victim constantly? Maybe stop blaming the west and the U.S. in particlar for once in a while? Maybe start reading a bit more about the history of that region? It is almost impossible to critize Islam or the M.E. for anything that might be wrong without being called a racist or whatever.

Perhaps if you would ask me about specific events instead of telling me what I believe because I'm a Muslim and you'd see that your stereotype is wrong as well?

The only thing you have done so far is to attack me. How about you start contributing to the discussion so that you would be able to see what I feel instead of deciding that I'm this way or that way because I'm a Muslim. Have you ever tried that?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

If most of the world religions have accepted that in order to get along you need to at least TRY and be tolerant, why is it the oposite in the Muslim world ? why are clerics preaching hate ?...could they be intrepreting the Koran 'wrong' ? i dont know...

Oh, ffs! Take a look at "clerics" like Jerry Falwell and co. Should I judge all of Christianity because of them?

And of course you don't know. You don't know because you have never spent the time to read the Holy Quran with an open mind.

In the middle east...when was the last time you heard of a revolt ?i think it was the kurds, and before that the iranians.

Iran '79, Kurds pretty much always, Palestinians, pretty much since the Zionist project started. What more do you need?

how about a protest ? condeming 9/11 in S.Arabia ? and askingtheir government to crack down on that sort of thing ? In America you had the civil rights movement....and look at how thats improved our society ?

All those have been done. Just open your eyes for a second or two.

Just one more thing. I'm guessing you are probably not more than 20 years old, 25 at most. Am I right?

[yakkiebah]

You really need to chill down, you'll explode before you know it.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

You really need to chill down, you'll explode before you know it.

That would fit right in with your stereotypes of Muslims wouldn't it?



:SSSSCCCCHAAAAABOOOOM!!!!:

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Duly noted. I get way too worked up in the political lounge. i think it best if i just observe hence forth. Sorry for my rambling you guys.... the thread is yours.

Cheers

I just think you need to be more careful in your consideration of the situation in the Middle East. The majority of countries in that region have very imbalanced political systems. Their leaders are very good at deploying violence to get society to do what the state immediately wants but ultimately, the state's ability to penetrate society and effect meaningful change is really lacking. The explanation for this state of affairs doesn't come from analysing Islam, but rather the region's political history and the origins of the Middle Eastern state system.

I've already talked about this on these forums about a year ago so I will re-post my comments.

From here:http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...42#post2275742

Why do you think the European state works so well yet the Arab state remains in crisis? The European state works because it was a system that was allowed to develop naturally. It evolved over time. The system of land ownership in Europe gradually developed in to one of hierachy and centralised ownership of the land. This eventually led to the centralisation of power and the creation of a state system, the institutional mechanisms then evolved from the state.
None of that happened in the Middle East. The colonials dropped their model of the state on to a region that wasn't suited to it or ready for it. Land ownership in the ME was of a completely different nature, collectively owned by tribes or families etc. The key difference here being that there was no centralised system of ownership thus no natural development of a grass roots state system. The governments that were put there had the interests of the colonial powers as the first priority. There was no industrialisation process because the colonials had no need for it. Instead the state's role was to facilitate the extraction of resources for trade and export. When the colonials carved up the Middle Eastern map, it made absolutely no sense to the peoples. They were suddenly told right you're Syrians, Iraqis, Jordanians, Iranians etc and this is your government. What all this ultimately meant was that the Arab state lacked legitimacy and the only way it could maintain any sort of stability was by using despotic power. The lack of legitimacy the Arab states have today remains. An example of what I mean by that legitimacy: In Europe every time you get your paycheck, a chunk of it is already gone in taxes to the government. And you accept that (perhaps, begrudgingly) but the fact remains that the government has the legitimacy and the infrastructural capacity to do that. Arab governments enjoy no such power.

Anywho...it's naive to neglect the extent of what the colonials did to the Arab state system. It's entirely artificial. It's no wonder that it remains ineffectual in so many areas. Sure, the Arabs can be blamed for not resisting it but the repercussions remain and the resentment toward the West remains.

[eklipse]

Originally Posted by mojo2

http://jewishworldreview.com/0805/chafets_sharon.php3



August 18, 2005

Understanding the real Ariel Sharon

....

Concise version: He's an asshole.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Hawkeye, lay off the crack pipe will you?

You first.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

I just think you need to be more careful in your consideration of the situation in the Middle East. The majority of countries in that region have very imbalanced political systems. Their leaders are very good at deploying violence to get society to do what the state immediately wants but ultimately, the state's ability to penetrate society and effect meaningful change is really lacking. The explanation for this state of affairs doesn't come from analysing Islam, but rather the region's political history and the origins of the Middle Eastern state system.

I've already talked about this on these forums about a year ago so I will re-post my comments.

From here:http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...42#post2275742

I understand.and im not pissed at anyone really. i just get worked up with these arguments cause, having lived there for over 16 years of my life and actually experiencing it at ground level and face value, its hard for me to comprehend ppl defending that sort of thing ESPECIALLY since they have never really lived there for that amount of time. And yes, im 25. My younger sister has practically spent her whole life in the ME, and all (literally all) her friends are muslim and theyre cool as hell as are most of my friends from the region. She has ONLY been exposed to the newspapers and news reports in the ME, and as you might suspect they spew on and on about the eivil jews and israelis anytime a palestinean is killed and i dont ever recall hearing them mention anything when an israeli was killed. And thus...she has the exact opposite opinion of mine on the Israel/Palestinean issue. (and you guys thought this was a heated debate ). I should point out that my father and mother are avid admirers or the jewish people and israel, althought they never really expressed their opinions as such unless we discussed it at the dinner table. But then again....like they said, they didnt want to take any unnecessary risks in that part of the world. My sister's best friend is a Syrian/Egyptian and our families are very close as well...and surprisingly they dont like the Palestineans either and refer to them as 'beggers' which is quite amusing.why exactly i dont know, and as you might suspect i try to avoid that subject all together. lol

Anyway...i guess im done with this argument....and what have we learned ? Hawkeye's a biggot lol. nah.... peace in the region is not possible. The best i (we all) can hope for is an open free Jerusalem, for all faiths....especially the Jews.

But yeah....i dont accept being called a racist. 16/25 years of my life means , a huge part of me is from that part of the world to begin with, and being able to get along with all our friends in the region not bothering about either choose to wear/eat/etc does prove that fact. But there is an undenyable hatred towards western culture(fear of change) there as well as a deep deep hatred of the Jews and Israel. And i didnt want to take any chances there by mentioning my views...firstly i dont want to hurt my friends, and second, God only knows what would happen if the authorities found out we on Israels side.

Ciao Ciao ppl.

(this is my last post here )

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Duly noted. I get way too worked up in the political lounge. i think it best if i just observe hence forth. Sorry for my rambling you guys.... the thread is yours.

Cheers

Yeah, they just wear you down with the BS and personal attacks (by LBK and others). It's why I don't engage in this subject matter on MacNN anymore, at least not very often. People are too rigid, and have their own half-truths and fabrications that they just keep spewing, ad nauseum... on both sides of the fence. Emotions run way too high regarding this issue, and it's best just to not even bother talking about it in the PL.

Nothing will change.

[budster101]

Affirmed. LBK and Eclipse. Personal attacks that were not necessary, but expected.

[thunderous_funker]

Meh.

The entire region should be sealed off, turned into a historical preserve and theme park and everyone living there should be relocated to the opposite ends of the earth.

If you can't share it, no one gets it. If you want to visit, buy a ticket and take a tour. Then get back on the bus and go home--somewhere else.

[budster101]

Sounds about right. We can call it. Bethlahemland, or Jerusalemworld...

Hmmm.... <Dream Sequence>

[thunderous_funker]

Sure. And 2 or 3 generations from now, young Arabs and Jews will wonder why their ancesters were willing to kill each other over a silly tourist trap.

[budster101]

Let's turn it into another Vegas.

[vmarks]

There is already a casino in Jericho.

[budster101]

Do they have a rollercoaster?

[vmarks]

naw, the rollercoaster is in Tel-Aviv. But it's a small country.