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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > New ATI Radeon X800 XT Mac Edition

New ATI Radeon X800 XT Mac Edition
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Luca Rescigno
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Jan 5, 2005, 12:45 PM
 
This is a pretty sweet alternative to the monstrous GeForce 6800! There's an article here.

A good comparison for those who aren't in the know would be to take the Radeon 9800 Pro and double it. It's actually twice as fast.

It also has one ADC port, one dual-link DVI port, and only takes up one slot. In fact, look at the size difference when comparing this card to the GeForce 6800 Ultra, which is similar in power:


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Leonard
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Jan 5, 2005, 01:15 PM
 
Can't wait to see benchmarks on the new card. Sounds like an impressive card.
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awcopus
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Jan 5, 2005, 01:16 PM
 
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
This is a pretty sweet alternative to the monstrous GeForce 6800! There's an article here.

A good comparison for those who aren't in the know would be to take the Radeon 9800 Pro and double it. It's actually twice as fast.

It also has one ADC port, one dual-link DVI port, and only takes up one slot. In fact, look at the size difference when comparing this card to the GeForce 6800 Ultra, which is similar in power:

Looks terrific and I'm buying it. But according to barefeats, it's not twice as fast as a 9600XT, let alone the 9800 series.

But a great card nonetheless, worth the money (especially for those of us with ADC-based ACDs... this may be the last, best high-end card with an ADC port), and should benefit tremendously from the enhancements that Tiger promises.
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Luca Rescigno  (op)
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Jan 5, 2005, 01:52 PM
 
Originally posted by awcopus:
Looks terrific and I'm buying it. But according to barefeats, it's not twice as fast as a 9600XT, let alone the 9800 series.
Uh... actually it is. Some of the benchmarks they do are CPU-bound (like UT2k4 botmatches, which use a lot of CPU power for handling the bot AI), and others are graphics-bound. On the graphics-bound ones, it's obvious that the X800 XT is easily twice as powerful as the 9800XT, and even slightly faster than the 6800 Ultra.

UT2k4 flyby: 85 (X800XT) vs. 81 (6800U) vs. 47 (98XT)
Halo: 47 vs. 42 vs. 24
Halo w/ FSAA: 39 vs. 24 vs. 14
Quake 3: 318 vs. 299 vs. 165


Yeah, in some tests it only edged out the other cards, but in most of them it edged out the 6800 and womped on the 9800XT and 9600XT, often getting twice the performance of the 9800XT and three times the performance of the 9600XT.

Link to Barefeats tests

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brucejy
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Jan 5, 2005, 02:31 PM
 
Can this go in a G4?
     
Luca Rescigno  (op)
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Jan 5, 2005, 02:43 PM
 
No.

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MORT A POTTY
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Jan 5, 2005, 02:50 PM
 
I agree, this would be my card of choice in a PowerMac G5. the drivers for it are probably better than the 6800 series cards too (and apparently are given the benchmarks) add that to the fact that it does not consume an extra PCI slot (which are too few as it is) and it can still run 2 new 23" displays (ADC <-> DVI adapter) and it's really a winner.
     
Al G
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Jan 5, 2005, 02:51 PM
 
Holy @#$%!

That thing is the size of a 9600 but with a fan! How'd they get that much performance out it while making it so small?!
     
MORT A POTTY
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Jan 5, 2005, 03:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Al G:
Holy @#$%!

That thing is the size of a 9600 but with a fan! How'd they get that much performance out it while making it so small?!
ATi > nVidia

I'm sure if ATi used as much space as nVIDIA they could have mopped the floor with 'em... but apparently they didn't.

I'm glad they went this route. also, FWIW, I believe the PC version of the X800 XT is as large as the GeForce 6800.
     
awcopus
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Jan 5, 2005, 05:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Uh... actually it is. Some of the benchmarks they do are CPU-bound (like UT2k4 botmatches, which use a lot of CPU power for handling the bot AI), and others are graphics-bound. On the graphics-bound ones, it's obvious that the X800 XT is easily twice as powerful as the 9800XT, and even slightly faster than the 6800 Ultra.

UT2k4 flyby: 85 (X800XT) vs. 81 (6800U) vs. 47 (98XT)
Halo: 47 vs. 42 vs. 24
Halo w/ FSAA: 39 vs. 24 vs. 14
Quake 3: 318 vs. 299 vs. 165


Yeah, in some tests it only edged out the other cards, but in most of them it edged out the 6800 and womped on the 9800XT and 9600XT, often getting twice the performance of the 9800XT and three times the performance of the 9600XT.

Link to Barefeats tests
Luca, you are right. I have to admit that the only test I was interested in was the Motion performance one, and in that the card is certainly faster than its predecessors, but not by as much as it is in the games. No matter, it's a brilliant, one-slot offering. My only regret is that it isn't available to order right now. I actually pleaded with ATI to let me preorder one today, but they're not taking orders until they have it in stock.

Just like Apple, right guys?
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Commodus
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Jan 5, 2005, 07:56 PM
 
I find it curious that they decided to launch the X800 XT for the Mac, and not the X850 XT - that's officially their latest technology, and really just a clock speed boost. Maybe it's because they haven't even shipped X850 cards for Windows yet (despite claiming immediate availability weeks ago) and don't see the point.

Alternately - and this is perhaps the biggest point - it may just be that the X850 is PCIe only, and they want to save it for a new PowerMac revision.
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MORT A POTTY
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Jan 5, 2005, 08:26 PM
 
Originally posted by Commodus:
it may just be that the X850 is PCIe only, and they want to save it for a new PowerMac revision.
exactly. we won't see those till Apple moves to PCIe, whenever that will be. I can't help but think Apple has one more AGP 8x revision left though.
     
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Jan 5, 2005, 10:58 PM
 
Well, since I'm leaving my job and the G5 I currently have at home has to go back to them when I leave, its replacement will definitely be upgraded with one as soon as possible
     
Eug Wanker
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Jan 6, 2005, 01:10 AM
 
AnandTech review (on a dual G5 2.0).
     
MORT A POTTY
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Jan 6, 2005, 03:57 AM
 
nice review.
     
robby818
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Jan 6, 2005, 04:54 AM
 
Originally posted by MORT A POTTY:
nice review.
Sounds like a great upgrade over the stock 9600 that came with my G5 2.0. Too bad the fan is just as noisy as the Nvidia card. Thankfully, Arctic Cooling makes an aftermarket fan that is very quiet.

http://www.arctic-cooling.com/vga2.php?idx=5

I have the first gen of arctic cooling vga coolers on a PC radeon 9800. The video card is now almost completely silent, whereas prior to the mod it was the loudest component in my PC.
     
Busemann
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Jan 6, 2005, 09:13 AM
 
Anyone know the noise level compared to the 9800XT, both when idle & under use?
     
gizzard
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Jan 6, 2005, 12:49 PM
 
Here's my take on the Radeon X800 XT, if anyone is interested: Radeon X800 XT Review @ IMG
     
-Q-
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Jan 6, 2005, 04:00 PM
 
Originally posted by robby818:
Sounds like a great upgrade over the stock 9600 that came with my G5 2.0. Too bad the fan is just as noisy as the Nvidia card. Thankfully, Arctic Cooling makes an aftermarket fan that is very quiet.

http://www.arctic-cooling.com/vga2.php?idx=5

I have the first gen of arctic cooling vga coolers on a PC radeon 9800. The video card is now almost completely silent, whereas prior to the mod it was the loudest component in my PC.
Thanks for the link. From the pictures it looks like this fan will take up an additional PCI slot (not from use, but just from coverage)?
     
Al G
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Jan 6, 2005, 06:49 PM
 
Originally posted by Busemann:
Anyone know the noise level compared to the 9800XT, both when idle & under use?
I have no clue on the X800 but I have the 9800XT. It uses a different fan than the retail 9800 Pro and SE and it's effectively silent. I'm sure it makes some noise but you can't hear it over the (already quiet) fans of the G5 even at idle.
     
MORT A POTTY
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Jan 6, 2005, 06:51 PM
 
Originally posted by -Q-:
Thanks for the link. From the pictures it looks like this fan will take up an additional PCI slot (not from use, but just from coverage)?
that is correct. it has an exhaust grille on the back of it and it will blow the heat straight out of the cooler and right out the back of the case.

I personally have an ATi Silcencer 1 on my Radeon 9800 Pro Mac Edition in my Quicksilver and I am quite pleased with it even though it takes the adjacent PCI slot (as you said, not because it uses it, but because it needs the space and the slot cover (for lack of a better word).

they truly are silent and keep it cooler than the stock HSF.
     
goMac
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Jan 6, 2005, 08:07 PM
 
The 6800 wipes the floor with the X800 in OpenGl, in games like Doom 3. ATI does DirectX faster, but DirectX isn't an issue on the Mac.

That said, I have a X700 in my PC, and its a nice line. The rendering engine is above and beyond what the 9800 can do.
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MORT A POTTY
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Jan 6, 2005, 11:18 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
The 6800 wipes the floor with the X800 in OpenGl, in games like Doom 3. ATI does DirectX faster, but DirectX isn't an issue on the Mac.

That said, I have a X700 in my PC, and its a nice line. The rendering engine is above and beyond what the 9800 can do.
you honestly can't compare PC performance to Mac performance. the drivers are 100% different and dramaticly alter the results of these bake-offs.

the windows OpenGL drivers for nVIDIA cards are better, but Mac drivers, ATi is better, straight up.
     
gizzard
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Jan 7, 2005, 05:00 AM
 
Originally posted by MORT A POTTY:
you honestly can't compare PC performance to Mac performance. the drivers are 100% different and dramaticly alter the results of these bake-offs.

the windows OpenGL drivers for nVIDIA cards are better, but Mac drivers, ATi is better, straight up.
That is exactly right. Thanks for saying that.
     
Zubir
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Jan 7, 2005, 10:41 AM
 
Good luck finding one of these for a Mac, it's hard enough to find one for PC's. ATI has had mucho trouble getting the X800 line into stores in quantity. It'll probably be worse for Mac users.
     
a2daj
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Jan 7, 2005, 12:37 PM
 
Originally posted by Zubir:
Good luck finding one of these for a Mac, it's hard enough to find one for PC's. ATI has had mucho trouble getting the X800 line into stores in quantity. It'll probably be worse for Mac users.
Apparently, ATI is just waiting for the retail boxes so they can ship the card.
     
gizzard
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Jan 7, 2005, 02:52 PM
 
ATI has told me that you should be able to purchase them by the end of next week. And if you read the review, you would have known that they are avoiding the supply constraints of the PC version by downclocking the core slightly.
     
MORT A POTTY
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Jan 7, 2005, 04:35 PM
 
Originally posted by gizzard:
ATI has told me that you should be able to purchase them by the end of next week. And if you read the review, you would have known that they are avoiding the supply constraints of the PC version by downclocking the core slightly.
which will be able to be corrected with a future update to ATi Accelerator II

my 9800 Pro is running at 405/378
     
Zubir
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Jan 7, 2005, 10:38 PM
 
Originally posted by gizzard:
ATI has told me that you should be able to purchase them by the end of next week. And if you read the review, you would have known that they are avoiding the supply constraints of the PC version by downclocking the core slightly.
That's nice, same price for a lower clocked card...
     
gizzard
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Jan 8, 2005, 01:00 AM
 
So you can tell the difference between a card that is clocked 475 MHz and 500 MHz? Or maybe you would prefer sell a 500 MHz part for $50-100 more that is nearly impossible to come by? Or option number 3, maybe you are just a troll?
     
Luca Rescigno  (op)
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Jan 8, 2005, 01:31 AM
 
Originally posted by Zubir:
That's nice, same price for a lower clocked card...
Technically, you're right. Yes, it's clocked 25 MHz lower yet it costs the same. You're ignoring a few key features, though:

Dual digital output
Dual-link DVI
ADC
AGP Pro
No auxiliary power connector

Yes, you can go to NewEgg and order a PowerColor X800 XT, clocked at 500/1000 MHz, for $490.50 including shipping. But it's a PowerColor, not built by ATI. It has one DVI and one VGA port, and is therefore incapable of driving a 30" cinema display. I think the Mac-compatible version is definitely worth the tradeoff in clock speed.

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jcadam
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Jan 8, 2005, 12:58 PM
 
Might be a good idea for current PM G5 owners to pick up one of these sooner rather than later.

The next major generation of GPUs is likely to be PCI-Express only on the high-end. That's when Apple will switch to PCI Express and decent performing AGP cards like this one will be harder to find.
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Luca Rescigno  (op)
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Jan 8, 2005, 02:18 PM
 
Also, I wonder if ADC capability will remain in the PowerMacs once PCI-E makes it to them? I mean... I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to put the ADC power connector on the PCI-E slot and on the graphics card, but you never know. Apple no longer makes ADC monitors so they might stop providing the ADC port, and during the switch to PCI-E would be as logical a time as any to do so.

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Zubir
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Jan 10, 2005, 04:14 AM
 
Originally posted by gizzard:
So you can tell the difference between a card that is clocked 475 MHz and 500 MHz? Or maybe you would prefer sell a 500 MHz part for $50-100 more that is nearly impossible to come by? Or option number 3, maybe you are just a troll?
Or maybe 4, you're a blind fan-boy? You can honestly justify paying the same price for a lower clocked card, just because it's made for Mac?
     
gizzard
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Jan 10, 2005, 06:11 AM
 
Oh, I see now.

You're one of those people that decides that if the product doesn't satisfy you personally, then you must make the product seem like crap to everyone else.

The clock speed issue has been discussed already. It's unfortunate, but ATI made the right decision. You probably also fail to realize that its core clock is still 75 MHz faster than the 6800 Ultra DDL. Not to mention the X800 XT beats the pants off the 6800 Ultra DDL, which is $100 more.

I've said my piece in my review and other reviewers on the web seem to be in consensus. Sure, you don't have to like it, but to troll about the same thing post after post is, well, trolling.
     
Luca Rescigno  (op)
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Jan 10, 2005, 07:35 AM
 
Beats the pants off it? I don't know, they look pretty similar to me, with the X800 XT barely beating the 6800 Ultra more often than not.

I think the 25 MHz lower clock speed is made up for by the more advanced features of the card vs. the PC version. Just try to find a PC version of the card with dual digital outputs and dual-link DVI for $499. I bet you can't do it. Now I know a lot of people won't use those features, but I bet a lot of people also won't notice the missing 25 MHz either, so I'd say it balances out.

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Simon
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Jan 10, 2005, 08:55 AM
 
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Just try to find a PC version of the card with dual digital outputs and dual-link DVI for $499. I bet you can't do it. Now I know a lot of people won't use those features, but I bet a lot of people also won't notice the missing 25 MHz either, so I'd say it balances out.
I guess it's worth mentioning that having only one digital output might not be a marketing problem in the PC world (I don't know if gamers care much about digital video), but in the Mac world I'm pretty certain people will by far prefer dual digital output. Not just because the ACDs are digital, but also because of the field of use of many Macs. So, all in all, I think ATi made the right decision.
     
awcopus
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Jan 10, 2005, 10:36 AM
 
It drives me crazy that ATI won't accept preorders on this card. I just want the damn thing as soon as possible.
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gizzard
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Jan 10, 2005, 01:23 PM
 
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Beats the pants off it? I don't know, they look pretty similar to me, with the X800 XT barely beating the 6800 Ultra more often than not.
Witness beating of pants off in UT2004 and Halo. =P

awcopus, you should be able to order from ATI's website in the next week or so. Just keep checking their online store.
     
MORT A POTTY
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Jan 10, 2005, 02:35 PM
 
provided nVIDIA gets their drivers fixed, then the X800 XT should be on par with the 6800 Ultra. but ATI has better mac drivers and this is the reason for the huge performance gap sometimes.

and the 25Mhz is definitely worth the extra features that the X800 XT has over the PC version of the card. if you don't realize this, you are the blind one.

if the 25Mhz is so important, fix it with ATI Accelerator II (a future release sould provide support for this card) problem solved, extra features remain intact.
     
macaddict0001
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Jan 10, 2005, 06:59 PM
 
It is true that ati has better drivers for mac but i find it odd because apple creates the nvidia drivers and cards.
     
bradleykavin
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Jan 10, 2005, 07:53 PM
 
where can you test the performance of your gpu? and how does this card compare to the 6800 gt and ultra? from what i understand it only has one dual link dvi connection, which means it can only support 1 30 in display?
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Luca Rescigno  (op)
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Jan 10, 2005, 08:27 PM
 
Originally posted by bradleykavin:
where can you test the performance of your gpu? and how does this card compare to the 6800 gt and ultra? from what i understand it only has one dual link dvi connection, which means it can only support 1 30 in display?
Scroll up.

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Jan 10, 2005, 09:34 PM
 
Originally posted by bradleykavin:
...only support 1 30 in display?
I love that. Only one 30" display.
     
MORT A POTTY
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Jan 11, 2005, 12:13 AM
 
Originally posted by macaddict0001:
apple creates the nvidia drivers and cards.
this is not true.

EDIT: and with this post, I am now officially a senior member.
     
saru boy
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Jan 11, 2005, 12:39 AM
 
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno:
Technically, you're right. Yes, it's clocked 25 MHz lower yet it costs the same. You're ignoring a few key features, though:

Dual digital output
Dual-link DVI
ADC
AGP Pro
No auxiliary power connector

Yes, you can go to NewEgg and order a PowerColor X800 XT, clocked at 500/1000 MHz, for $490.50 including shipping. But it's a PowerColor, not built by ATI. It has one DVI and one VGA port, and is therefore incapable of driving a 30" cinema display. I think the Mac-compatible version is definitely worth the tradeoff in clock speed.
See this article regarding dual link DVI. From their tests, the ATI cards seem to have better DVI signals.

With regards to the Radeon X800 XT vs the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL, it seems to me that you're paying an extra $100 for the second dual link DVI output that the Nvidia card offers. Then again, if you can afford two 30" displays, that $100 might not be much of an issue.
     
macaddict0001
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Jan 11, 2005, 02:18 AM
 
Originally posted by MORT A POTTY:
this is not true.

EDIT: and with this post, I am now officially a senior member.
I'm pretty sure apple makes the cards and drivers they just buy the chipset.
     
MORT A POTTY
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Jan 11, 2005, 04:02 AM
 
they may very well manufacture the cards (and I actually believe this to be the case) but I don't think they make the drivers for them and I know for a fact they don't design the cards (but I don't think that's even being debated)
     
macaddict0001
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Jan 11, 2005, 10:59 AM
 
Your right it isn't being debated but i still think they make the drivers now that we got the cards settled.
     
awcopus
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Jan 11, 2005, 02:58 PM
 
Got bored waiting for windows to refresh for keynote updates and decided to make my daily check for X800 availability from ATI. And...

...JUST ordered the X800 from their online store. If you plug in the coupon code 1000 you get $50 off the order.

I am psyched. Dual G5 2.5 with 6GB RAM and the X800 on the way. Motion, you will respect my authority!
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