[Luca Rescigno]

I'm honestly just curious about this. Not trying to start a huge flamewar though I have no illusions of the likelihood of that happening. But I am interested to see what conservatives think of him.

I was noticing recently that right wing talk radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity seem to just hate the guy. It sort of confuses me since it seems their argument is that he's not conservative enough, or that he's not a neoconservative. But isn't that a bit short-sighted? Neoconservatism is basically dead, at least for now - no neocon could make it after what Bush has done to that movement. And what of the fact that our last Republican president, George H. W. Bush, was no neocon? Did these same people who blast McCain for not being conservative enough also dislike Bush Sr.?

As a Democrat I've been hearing all sorts of stuff about what our party's been doing, which is of course much more interesting at the moment since the primaries just ended. But I don't know enough about the Republican party and I'd like to hear some other perspectives on this matter. It almost seems to me like the Republican party is going to have a hard time pulling together to support McCain, but I do think the Republicans are pretty good at unifying themselves when they need to. A friend of mine even implied that the apparent hate of McCain among ultra right wing conservatives is merely a ploy to show moderates that McCain isn't so right wing.

[design219]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

talk radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity

These guys are so out of touch it's mind boggling.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

But I am interested to see what conservatives think of him.

"At least he's not a Democrat."

[Luca Rescigno]

I agree, but I can never tell how widespread their following is among conservatives. I think they're probably representing a small but very loud minority of nutjobs who get their kicks from trolling liberals. Vice versa for most of the liberals on Air America.

Maybe it's kind of like Christianity in that the most annoying and divisive members are also the loudest, and the vast majority of normal people are generally quiet and don't feel the need to shout their heads off at you. The vast majority of Christians are good people who I'd get along with just fine, but of course the ones you notice are the Pat Robertsons and the Jeremiah Wrights. The vast majority of conservatives are probably the same way - people who probably want most of the same things I do from government, like more integrity and accountability, bipartisanship, and a shift away from party politics and toward issue-based politics. But the ones you notice are asshats like Sean Hannity.

[peeb]

For the record, very few 'liberals' listen to air america. It's the same kind of shrill crap that is pumped out on right wing media, and turns thinking people off.

My question is what do you mean by 'conservative'?

[Luca Rescigno]

Oh, I know about Air America. There was a reason I pointed them out - I figure Air America appeals to a tiny militant political splinter group in the same way that right wing talk radio does. I listened to Air America for a couple hours not long after it went on the air before I had to turn it off.

Anyway, by "conservative" I basically mean people who tend to vote Republican most often. Not the swing voters who have no idea or very little idea of who they'll vote for, but the people who usually back the Republican candidate. What I'm trying to find out is whether McCain is strongly supported by the Republican base or not. Certain extreme right-wing media personalities seem to dislike him, but I can't tell whether they represent a lot of Republicans or if they're just out of touch as Design219 says.

I figure this'll be sort of like Clinton supporters who are jumping ship because their precious candidate didn't make the cut. There will be a small group of loud (and mostly ignorant) voters who will whine about their choices and who will say they'll vote for someone who differs greatly from their own views out of spite. All the news coverage is going to the Clinton turncoats, but what about on the Republican side? Are there many Republicans who hate McCain and would rather abstain or switch sides than support him? Something tells me there aren't many, but I'm not sure, and that's why I'm asking.

[ghporter]

Mr. McCain seems to tick off the "ultra conservative" wing of the Republican party, so I like him a lot. But I don't know what to think of him from the "conservative" point of view. The Current Occupant seems to have surrounded himself (or the party has surrounded him) with the goofiest bunch of people around, and their actions and policies are anything but "conservative" (except that they want to impress their idea of religion on us all). So while I still like ticking these goobs off, I'm not sure what "conservative" means politically anymore.

[Mithras]

This is way OT, but did you guys see this on the John McCain 2008 - John McCain for President site? Not the best way to counter the "old white guy" perception.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Mithras 

This is way OT, but did you guys see this on the John McCain 2008 - John McCain for President site?

One of these things is not like the other...

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Mithras 

This is way OT, but did you guys see this on the John McCain 2008 - John McCain for President site? Not the best way to counter the "old white guy" perception.

They also have sections on his favorite lawn fertilizer and strategies for pinochle.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Mr. McCain seems to tick off the "ultra conservative" wing of the Republican party, so I like him a lot. But I don't know what to think of him from the "conservative" point of view. The Current Occupant seems to have surrounded himself (or the party has surrounded him) with the goofiest bunch of people around, and their actions and policies are anything but "conservative" (except that they want to impress their idea of religion on us all). So while I still like ticking these goobs off, I'm not sure what "conservative" means politically anymore.

It means the same thing it's always meant: small government, low spending, strong sense of nostalgia. Hence why conservatives don't like the current administration.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by subego 

One of these things is not like the other...

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the fact that Arabs get a black pin or that Hispanics aren't Americans.

[besson3c]

Maybe he's referring to the fact that there isn't a "Canadians for McCain" pin.

[Luca Rescigno]

At first I thought that the term "Hispanic Americans" would be redundant since Hispanics are all from the Americas, but then of course I realized that there are Hispanics from Spain as well.

Besides, the term "American" tends to mean "from the United States" rather than "from anywhere in Latin America" anyway, at least when you're inside the U.S.

Actually, that gives me another idea. Maybe it's because many Hispanics consider "America" to refer to all of Latin America and would possibly be offended at the notion that their friends and relatives living outside the United States aren't considered "Americans."

[subego]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the fact that Arabs get a black pin or that Hispanics aren't Americans.

My original idea was the one black pin, though the Hispanics not being Americans is also interesting.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

Actually, that gives me another idea. Maybe it's because many Hispanics consider "America" to refer to all of Latin America and would possibly be offended at the notion that their friends and relatives living outside the United States aren't considered "Americans."

An excellent point.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It means the same thing it's always meant: small government, low spending, strong sense of nostalgia. Hence why conservatives don't like the current administration.

That's what I thought, as most conservatives I know think George has messed up bigtime. They repeatedly refer to the Reagan era with nostalgia (can't blame them-at least then the pres didn't call himself one thing then act completely differently).

[peeb]

Do you think 'conservatives' are interested in preserving the Constitution?
McCain Supports Bush's Warrantless Wiretaps - Politics on The Huffington Post

[subego]

^^ Ewww.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Do you think 'conservatives' are interested in preserving the Constitution?
McCain Supports Bush's Warrantless Wiretaps - Politics on The Huffington Post

Not as a whole, but neither are liberals. I would guess that probably more conservatives are bothered by unconstitutional measures like this than liberals are by judicial activism in their ranks.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Not as a whole, but neither are liberals. I would guess that probably more conservatives are bothered by unconstitutional measures like this than liberals are by judicial activism in their ranks.

Care to rephrase that so it makes sense, and isn't just a knee jerk 'No - You are!'? What can you possibly mean by that non sequitur?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Care to rephrase that so it makes sense, and isn't just a knee jerk 'No - You are!'? What can you possibly mean by that non sequitur?

It made perfect sense. Has Bush been found in violation of a Constitutional principle? Has he broken the law?

I guess I'm left to believe liberals lawyers aren't as "up to the task" on this walk in the park as the conservative lawyers who head-hunted Billy for lying about ********?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Care to rephrase that so it makes sense, and isn't just a knee jerk 'No - You are!'? What can you possibly mean by that non sequitur?

I will rephrase it for you very plainly. You asked whether conservatives care about the Constitution.

Not all conservatives care about the Constitution — at least not all of it. Neither do all liberals. Some conservatives do care about these illegal acts. I think the number of conservatives who care about these acts is greater than the number of liberals who care when our leaders ignore parts of the Constitution to achieve liberal goals.

Could you follow that one?

[chris v]

We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies. *blink, blink.*

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

"At least he's only a Democrat."

fixed

[besson3c]

I'm thinking that if Kerry's downfall was being labeled a flip-flopper, McCain really has his work cut out for him considering his alleged flip-flops in water boarding and wiretapping. I'm not saying that these accusations are accurate because I really haven't researched any of this, but I'm willing to bet that this is one tactic that Obama and his campaign will be all over... That and the apparent 95% voting alongside Bush last year thing.

Honestly, I think it's pretty safe to say that the media has given McCain a free pass up until now since so much more attention and excitement has revolved around the Democratic primaries up until now. With those behind us, I think we'll be hearing a lot more along these lines.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm thinking that if Kerry's downfall was being labeled a flip-flopper, McCain really has his work cut out for him considering his alleged flip-flops in water boarding and wiretapping. I'm not saying that these accusations are accurate because I really haven't researched any of this, but I'm willing to bet that this is one tactic that Obama and his campaign will be all over... That and the apparent 95% voting alongside Bush last year thing.

I agree. Obama is going to relegate McCain to Bush II and it will hurt McCain for a couple of different reasons. Granted, consider the source as partisan, but they've got an impressive list of flops that I'm certain will be used against McCain; McCain flip-flops

The second thing is that I don't think Americans dislike Bush. They disapprove of his handling of certain affairs, but if McCain relies too heavily on the fact that he must separate from Bush, he may end up doing himself some harm there too. He's caught between Iraq and a hard place.

Honestly, I think it's pretty safe to say that the media has given McCain a free pass up until now since so much more attention and excitement has revolved around the Democratic primaries up until now. With those behind us, I think we'll be hearing a lot more along these lines.

I wouldn't consider it a "free pass". It was beginning to cost the Dems. You have a good point though. Upon Obama's delegation win last week and in viewing the speeches. Obama clearly stood out. McCain was clumsy and looked downright uncomfortable and a little tired. McCain's speech seemed to hit on some very basic tenets of an antiquated word "reform" while Obama's speech was fresh, new, invigorating, and visionary. I have this gut feeling that McCain may implode. He may expose some anger, senility, and forgetfulness. The flip-flop indictments will abound. Obama is through the worst of his plight at this point having somewhat weathered the Wright, Ayers, Flegger-gates. While those issues are sure to come back, they may be obsolete compared to McCain's potential future blunders under more frequent coverage.

[Chuckit]

There are many other things to accuse people off than flip-flopping. Wait till McCain starts playing dirty. I think that's where he's going to shine. Obama seems like a nice guy overall. McCain, on the other hand, I don't think is above taking Obama's lack of experience and questionable taste in pastors and making Obama out to be some kind of deranged psychopath.

[subego]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm thinking that if Kerry's downfall was being labeled a flip-flopper

Kerry's downfall was a combination of being labeled a flip-flopper and "the most liberal Senator in Congress".

If McCain is capable of explaining mutual exculsivity, he should be all good.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm thinking that if Kerry's downfall was being labeled a flip-flopper, McCain really has his work cut out for him considering his alleged flip-flops in water boarding and wiretapping. I'm not saying that these accusations are accurate because I really haven't researched any of this, but I'm willing to bet that this is one tactic that Obama and his campaign will be all over...

Obama has flip-flopped quite as well. It's like a Senator's syndrome, and that's why I don't like Senators as Presidents - too much trying to appear on both sides of an issue.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

Obama has flip-flopped quite as well. It's like a Senator's syndrome, and that's why I don't like Senators as Presidents - too much trying to appear on both sides of an issue.

That may be true, but these two particular issues will be extremely damaging to McCain. McCain's reputation is of a war hero and a Maverick. He was known has strongly objecting to torture based on his deeply personal experiences in war, and now he is siding with Bush? This can easily be seen as a huge sell-your-soul-to-the-devil sort of thing. The other thing I forgot to add was McCain's lack of support for Webb's GI Bill, this doesn't look good either, nor does the wiretapping flip-flop look good to his maverick reputation.

The point is McCain has been defined in a very particular way, Obama has been defined as well, but is not tethered to any particular issue(s) the way McCain is, he's tethered to his philosophy and political approach.

[Luca Rescigno]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

The second thing is that I don't think Americans dislike Bush.

I agree with you except for this sentence. Not only is Bush's approval rating low, but his disapproval rating is the highest in history:

A CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey released Thursday indicates that 71 percent of the American public disapprove of how Bush is handling his job as president.

"No president has ever had a higher disapproval rating in any CNN or Gallup Poll; in fact, this is the first time that any president's disapproval rating has cracked the 70 percent mark," said Keating Holland, CNN's polling director.

Source

Yes, it's a month old, but I doubt things have changed much since then.

[Shaddim]

Yeah, his numbers suck, they're horrible. However, they aren't quite as bad as the Democrat controlled Congress.

RealClearPolitics - Election Other - Congressional Job Approval

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

I agree with you except for this sentence. Not only is Bush's approval rating low, but his disapproval rating is the highest in history:


Source

Yes, it's a month old, but I doubt things have changed much since then.

You're right. I should've qualified. I don't think people dislike Bush as much as the polling data would suggest. Also, the minute some major news of improvement occurs from Iraq and/or some domestic issues show him a good guy; public opinion could change in the blink of an eye and McCain would go running right back to Bush. It'd look pathetic and desperate. My advice would not be to run too far from Bush at this time.

[moep]

He seems like a pretty smart guy.











…











…

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by subego 

Kerry's downfall was a combination of being labeled a flip-flopper and "the most liberal Senator in Congress".

If McCain is capable of explaining mutual exculsivity, he should be all good.

Yeah...once there's someone out there to explain Obama's stances on the issues and how they differ from the majority of Americans, McCain will look like a reasonable guy even though he's got a few doozies in his supported policies catalog. Age, experience and moderation will most likely win over Youth, charisma and beliefs out of touch with most Americans.

I think Kerry was a tougher nut to crack than Obama (served in the military, more experience, etc.), but Obama has his "charisma" which might help him.

Which commercials will hurt more for moderate independents...ones explaining that McCain wanted to torture terrorists, or Obama wanting to turn the country into a national San Fransisco? I'm not a big fan of McCain's, but ....good luck democrats

[art_director]

After the failed experiment called 'Bush Cheney' who cares about what conservatives think?

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That may be true, but these two particular issues will be extremely damaging to McCain. McCain's reputation is of a war hero and a Maverick. He was known has strongly objecting to torture based on his deeply personal experiences in war, and now he is siding with Bush? This can easily be seen as a huge sell-your-soul-to-the-devil sort of thing.

Worst case scenario for McCain regarding his flip-flops on torture:
MCCAIN WANTS TO TORTURE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL US.

Worst case scenario for Obama regarding his flip-flops concering support for radical religious leftists for over 20 years:
OBAMA HATES AMERICA.

I'm pretty sure Obama has a little more work cut out for him than McCain, as far as how he's going to be defined. As you've stated, McCain is pretty well defined - people know him and for the most part have formed an opinion on him. I doubt that is an opinion that he's a flip-flopper or a totally dishonest guy. Obama will have to change people's opinions on McCain which is much harder to do than to simply get them to form an initial opinion. The same was true of Hillary. You weren't going to find many "bombshells" which would change people's opinions as far as what her core values were - most had already made up their mind. That's not to say that some huge gaffe or other external contribution wouldn't do it - it's just harder once someone's image has been set in the mind of the public. That's why it's going to be hard to pin a "BUSH 2" badge on McCain. Most people know that McCain hasn't towed the party line for the majority of his career. I think that will backfire on the Dems.

Obama on the other hand is an unknown. A clean slate to which to ascribe any number of negative attributes, most of which are true. He'll have his work cut out for him.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director 

After the failed experiment called 'Bush Cheney' who cares about what conservatives think?

People possessing some amount of intelligence would probably surmise that the thread starter (at the very least) has some interest in what conservatives think.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

People possessing some amount of intelligence would probably surmise that the thread starter (at the very least) has some interest in what conservatives think.

No, this thread is trolling for flamers in a Richard Simmons sort of way.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

= McCain hates everything America stands for.

Like Biggie™ Freedom Fries™.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

MCCAIN WANTS TO TORTURE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL US.

= McCain hates everything America stands for.

[Luca Rescigno]

Oh god, just stop with the "___________ HATES AMERICA" sh!t. It makes everyone look like an idiot.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

Oh god, just stop with the "___________ HATES AMERICA" sh!t. It makes everyone look like an idiot.

How so? One of Obama's long term close advisors has gone on record as saying over and over "god damn America". Once this was uncovered, Obama flopped like a fish. The only one looking like an idiot over this sort of thing is Obama. He's got 20 years of support for radical leftists he's had to distance himself from, and it's going to be hard for him to explain that all his associations and all his votes in support of liberal ideals and left-wing radicals where in the past or no longer relevant.

It's not going to be hard to craft a commercial around the theme of "change" and apply it directly to Obama. He's put a target on himself that a blind man could hit that Hillary couldn't take advantage of for fear of aggravating the Democrat base. McCain doesn't need the Democrat base. Trust me...Obama's flipping and flopping is long from over and makes McCain look like a steady pole. Hillary was right.

[Luca Rescigno]

I'll see your Wright and raise you a Renzi. Every crooked associate of one candidate has a counterpart on the other side.

Like I said, everyone has a past. When you're in politics you can't possibly stay perfectly clean. Since there's dirt on everyone, I tend to look past a lot of that and try to judge people on their own merits, not on the merits of those who they have associated with in the past.

Saying that someone hates America is a pretty huge step to take, especially if that person is running for president. Why would someone run for president if he hates America? It doesn't make any sense, and it makes you look like an idiot.

[besson3c]

I also wonder if the reasons for McCain divorcing his first wife will surface, whether Vicky Iseman will return, etc.

People have said that McCain has broken with his party many times in his career... Will this matter when he has done so little of this in recent years? Maybe his political ideology has changed over time? Or, maybe he is just pandering to Bush's base?


P.S. I agree that "_____ hates America" statements are utterly retarded. They sound like something I'd read in the retarded CNN reader comments that are attached to their Ticker. Let's not turn MacNN into another bottom feeder bickerfest, there are plenty of other venues for this if this is really what you want.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

I'll see your Wright and raise you a Renzi. Every crooked associate of one candidate has a counterpart on the other side.

Generally, I'd agree. When you're dealing with money and politics, people who are less than honest squeak through occasionally. We aren't talking about MONEY or THE PAST though, we are talking about IDEOLOGY and the THE PRESENT up until the last couple of months ago. And Wright is just the tip of the left-wing iceberg

Saying that someone hates America is a pretty huge step to take, especially if that person is running for president. Why would someone run for president if he hates America? It doesn't make any sense, and it makes you look like an idiot.

Why would anyone live in America who hates it? Same basic question.

What I do know is that one of Obama's long-time advisors had gone on record as wanting God to damn America to hell. Personally, I think it makes him look like an idiot as well.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

I agree with you except for this sentence. Not only is Bush's approval rating low, but his disapproval rating is the highest in history:

GWB gets whacked from both sides. The left has hated him since he first came into office, and over the past few years, he's been getting whacked by conservatives for not aggressively pursuing conservative policy and/or not challenging liberals on a bunch of issues.

The amnesty push I think was big in terms of losing some solid conservative support. Some say spending was a big deal, but I don't think he was losing much support from his base on that. THe Amnesty push was much more significant in my mind.

The war bites GWB on the butt as well. Obviously, the anti-war left would never come around, but there are plenty of conservatives who would have preferred a much more significant scale of battle. You know - if you have to go to war, then flatten the enemy with all that we've got. Instead, the way the war was fought seemed to some conservatives as being way too concerned with the response of the American left. He pussy-footed around initially. I think his concern was not so much the American public's feelings as much as those of Muslims worldwide.

I like the guy. He runs the government pretty well, he's respectful to the office, he keeps the nation's business moving along, he lets the American public duke it out without interference, and he doesn't get bent out of shape, freak out, or lose focus when people raise hell at him. I don't agree with all of his decisions, but I'm probably never going to agree with 100% of anyone's decisions.

I also happen to think that GWB got handed a bag of crap, and I think the operation he hands off to the next President will be much more organized and streamlined than the operation he came into.

Some years from now, I think quite a few people will look back and realize that not only was he not nearly as bad as the left portrays him to be, but that he was a pretty solid performer with all things considered.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Generally, I'd agree. When you're dealing with money and politics, people who are less than honest squeak through occasionally. We aren't talking about MONEY or THE PAST though, we are talking about IDEOLOGY and the THE PRESENT up until the last couple of months ago. And Wright is just the tip of the left-wing iceberg



Why would anyone live in America who hates it? Same basic question.

What I do know is that one of Obama's long-time advisors had gone on record as wanting God to damn America to hell. Personally, I think it makes him look like an idiot as well.

*SIgh* are you aware of the context in which this was said? Is there *any* context in your mind in which somebody can God damn America, or has America always been the archetype of flawless morality?

We should not be having this conversation without looking at the full context, because otherwise I assure you we will get absolutely nowhere by scrubbing recordings looking for something to take out of context to score political points.

I do agree that Wright went too far recently, but citing that one sound byte that was looped that did not take into account context is lame. I actually think that blasting McCain for the "100 years in Iraq" thing without taking into account the context is also lame, just to be fair.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

People have said that McCain has broken with his party many times in his career... Will this matter when he has done so little of this in recent years? Maybe his political ideology has changed over time? Or, maybe he is just pandering to Bush's base?

Maybe McCain is just doing what he thinks is right based on his analysis of the issue(s). Why not offer up that possibility?