[Salty]

Hey, so it looks like I've inadvertently got a freelance graphics project coming up over the next few months. Someone saw some of my work that I did just for fun for someone, and they want me to draw for some 8x10 feet pieces they're going to hang in a clothing shop in LA. Essentially since I'm not actually a pro, I have no idea what my rates should be.
I'm going to post some of the work I've done recently to give you guys a clue of how "good" I am. I was thinking I'd just figure out how long I think I'm going to spend on each one, and then work out an hourly rate and give him an estimate for each piece. What I'm wondering is what the people who do this professionally think would be a reasonable amount for me to charge for each hour.






So what's a fair rate?

[quattrokid73]

may i ask what equipment you use to do those works? id love to try my hand at that stuff.

[::maroma::]

This might help you out:

AIGA | AQUENT

You can enter different criteria to narrow down the average rates for what you'll be doing.

[turtle777]

2 hampstors per hour. That's what keeps me going.

-t

[Madrag]

I have a hourly rate wich covers the effort, time and includes the profit; but depending on the project, I sometimes change the hourly rate and turn it into a project rate.

I'm not giving any prices becasue I'm on the Portuguese market and I'm sure it's way different than the US one...

[OwlBoy]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

2 hampstors per hour. That's what keeps me going.

-t

Im a bit over weight, so I charge 2.5 hamsters an hour.

-Owl

[Salty]

Originally Posted by quattrokid73 

may i ask what equipment you use to do those works? id love to try my hand at that stuff.

Just pick yourself up a Wacom tablet and you're good to go. It'll even come with a version of Photoshop.

For the record though I think PS CS3 is great!

[mduell]

$100/hr plus supplies

edit: I mean, figure out how many hours you think it will take, multiply by 100, then add supplies. Give that total figure to the client.

[Adam Betts]

I think $100/hr is a little too high especially for a designer with small portfolio. Start low ($75/hr is the best starting price) then raise as you develop bigger portfolio and better confidence in giving clients exactly what they're looking for.

Just a little FYI, hourly rate is not always the way to go. In some cases you'd want to charge flat rate instead of hourly. For example if you think you just did one of your masterpieces and it only took four hours to do, charge $1k flat instead of hourly rate which you'll only get $300.

BTW, nice job on the artworks Salty. I don't like the radial blur on first one but other than that they're beautifully done. Nice compositions.

[DeathMan]

Salty, for Illustration, I think you usually charge a fee based on the complexity of the commission (perhaps based on an internal estimate of the time it will take, or even just the going rate for similar illustrations). Graphic Design is different, but you still usually just bid a total price based on a certain number of hours that it will take, with the provision that if the project goes over, the price could shift upwards.

[Salty]

A HUNDRED AN HOUR!? Dude, I was thinking like, charge somewhere in the area of 15 bucks an hour! Adam are you serious?

By the way Adam, yah the Radial blur is a bit cheesey. I try and avoid using filters like that. But it was actually by the end being rushed as a sort of Christmas gift for the three women in the picture. They're my "Angels" or "hot lady friends". And I just wanted to get it out for Christmas. I would have probably finished drawing the clothing, only I didn't have actual photos of them in "long flowy robes" which is why if you notice Michelle's (centre) clothes look less great than the rest of the drawing.

Anyway, wow... well I already told the guy that I'd try and do it for aprox 15 bucks an hour, I guess I'll just make sure to give myself generous estimates on time so that if I end up finishing quickly I can drop my rate if I feel I didn't do enough work to warrant that.
By the way Adam, thanks a lot for the complements on the pieces, coming from you that means a lot!

[Madrag]

carefull! your rates can haunt you!
(if this client passes word, other clients won't understand the new rate).

I used to give discounts when budgeting, but in the written budget ther's no metion of the discount.
Now, almost four years later, I'm still "haunted" by that fault, and newer clients don't understand the disparity, just because they got the price for an old project which had a non-written BIG discount...

[Weezer]

100 an hour? yikes. How many hours does something like that take?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Salty 

The Dominion called, it wants its Founders back.

[Dakar²]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Salty]

The Dominion?

Anyway. Yah I told this guy "I'd feel bad charging you more, but apparently I'm worth a lot more, so I'll do it at this price, but if anyone asks you absolutely can not tell them how much I charged you."

Oh by the way, for times.

Amy, Megan and Michelle took probably 9 hours to do Megan and Michelle (centre and left) Amy was actually done for another drawing a couple months ago and I decided that I wanted the same photo to use so I just cleaned up a few mistakes, it was probably initially 8 hours on it's own. So... yah. That said I wasn't exactly solidly working those times.
The one of Josh, (guy in the suit) took a solid five or six hours. It takes a lot longer when you have to try and dodge and burn a nose onto a face.

Those sound like they took a long time, and I guess they did, but for the most part I do it to relax so I just kinda zone out and draw.

But dang if I can land a few enjoyable jobs with good pay over the next bit I bet I could get myself a nice new tablet, full version of CS3 when it comes out, heck do a couple jobs and I could pick up a Mac Pro and a Cinema display.

[andi*pandi]

those are illustrations, not graphic design, so don't use those scales. For large scale work like that I would charge a flat fee. A fat flat fee!

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

fat flat fee!

try and say that 3 times fast

[air]

that really hurts my eyes. sorry?

[Yose]

Graphics Artist Guilde Handbook breaks down a lot of the costs for illustration (among many others) - if anything it would be a good resource for you to check out if you want to keep doing this kind of work.

[kernokerno]

You should post at how.com critiques forum.
Sometimes (maybe always) they are really harsh, but i have seen how a project gets much much better after all the critiques art directors and designers give at HOW.
They love to see sketches of the project first.

[RAILhead]

those pics are ghey.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by air 

That really hurts my eyes. sorry?

True. do those girls really look like that? yeesh!

Additionally, your sig image looks nothing like you. I was on your flickr page and you are proud you're not using black lines in your artwork, but I think they need to make a return. Some of your older stuff is better because of the black lines. Perhaps even slightly_darker than skin_tone lines(not black).

this is the best in the thread:


Do you work with shapes at all? I think shapes are cooler than painting. Superior resizeability too!

I recently did this with my shaky mouse hand:

(I'll remove this image if it's mucking up your thread)

Ooh, forgot this thread was about rates. I dunno, I always have difficulties coming up with what to charge. Sometimes hourly (I've done anywhere from $20-$100/hr.) although I prefer to charge a flat fee with room for more charges if they make changes.

I wish I had more time to devote to creativity, and a Wacom!

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Salty 

A HUNDRED AN HOUR!? Dude, I was thinking like, charge somewhere in the area of 15 bucks an hour! Adam are you serious?

By the way Adam, yah the Radial blur is a bit cheesey. I try and avoid using filters like that. But it was actually by the end being rushed as a sort of Christmas gift for the three women in the picture. They're my "Angels" or "hot lady friends". And I just wanted to get it out for Christmas. I would have probably finished drawing the clothing, only I didn't have actual photos of them in "long flowy robes" which is why if you notice Michelle's (centre) clothes look less great than the rest of the drawing.

I understand you're a college student, so to yourself your time isn't terribly valuable. $200 is a lot of money. If you were pricing based on cost, $15/hr is probably reasonable. Only an idiot prices based on cost.
You should be pricing on value. What are the images worth to the store owner?
It sounds like your time plus materials are about a grand per image. I'd guess they're worth that much to the store owner.

[Calimus]

Another thing many people forget to factor in is taxes. Lets assume you're doing everything above board and legit. To make it easy, lets say you make $100 on a job. $15 off the top for social security, lets say 15% tax bracket, another $15 taken off. State taxes of 10%? and you're left with $60. That's not counting paying for health care and the other expenses you have when you're working on your own.

$25/hr free lance is probably somewhere close to $15/hr at a regular job with benefits.

[Salty]

Wow, see this is why I stick around this place, sometimes you guys are really really useful.

OK, starting out I don't think it's bad that I'm going to be charging this guy so little for these things. I mean if his store does well then my work will get a lot of exposure. I imagine he'll probably be fine with me tagging a lil logo in the bottom with a website URL.

But wow, this sounds like it could actually be a lot of fun. I could turn down jobs I don't want. I could work on my own time. And heck if I was able to charge 75 an hour, I'd be making more than my dad does! That's great. Hmmm... maybe after this summer starts I'll start seeing if I can get clients. I need to get out of the parent's basement ASAP... David needs to have a place to have a boy friend over... for cuddling seriously my mom would freak out if she even saw me holding another guy's hand!

Oh and Ice. First of all, yah it does, I used a photo. The majority of the lines are basically traced. I just don't have my glasses on. I took it one day when I had no product in my hair. The skin tone might be a lil too dark but I liked it so I left it that way.
As for do the ladies look like that? They look a lot like that. The general shapes are right for the most part, first year I was scared to talk to them cause they were insanely hot and so I assumed they'd be bitchy. Turns out they're three of the best friends I could ever hope for. Amy (the blonde) is the sort that leaves random nice messages on my MySpace, actually so does Michelle (centre/asian). Megan's the type that let me sit by her during the play offs and ask her what on earth was going on, "Icing is when the puck gets all the way to the other side and behind that line with nobody to get it." They've all agreed to wear white flowy dresses and angel wings when I get married. Haha, we've also been known to check out cute boys together... they all have better chances with them than I do though... go figure.

As for drawing with objects, I had a copy of FreeHand 9 at one point and was pretty dang great at it (at my skill level) I did mainly cartooning. But I've drawn some pretty cool stuff with vectors. Back when I worked in Fireworks a lot I used almost exclusively vectors. Drew some flippin cool stuff.
As for the return of black lines, I have nothing against them. But at the same time I've been wanting to get better at drawing skin tones. It's a lot easier with black lines. You don't need to draw a nose, you just draw a few lines and nostrils. That said, I need to start learning how to draw teeth cause I'm still awful at that.

[Salty]

Oh one other bit. The picture you said was probably the best in the thread. Yah that very well might be the best I've ever drawn. I had a phenomenal photo to work with. And go figure, I had the world's biggest crush on the guy. Sigh... he actually inspired some of my best stuff. He's even taken a few photos with himself in them recently on a trip to New York that I saw, that I had to tell myself not to ask him for because I'm over him, and now I in all honesty think he's a bit of a jerk.

He's also the same guy in this one.

[RAILhead]

Can you be gay without being so queer in every damn one of your posts?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Can you be gay without being so queer in every damn one of your posts?

[Salty]

No.

[Railroader]

On topic (sort of): When I started portrait photography I was desperate to get people to hire me. I had insanely cheap prices with no sitting fees and I got the developed pictures to them as soon as I possibly could. No one would hire me. I asked a friend with good business sense why he thought I was having such a problem getting customers. He told me that at my rates people probably thought my product sucked because it was so cheap. So I jacked up my rate, added a sitting fee, and started actually not being as available. I have been pretty busy recently and getting a much better clientele.

What I learned: If your prices are cheap people will think your product is as well. If you seem desperate, people are going to wonder why no one else is using you.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Salty 

No.

Too bad.

[Salty]

Yah... my mom was actually telling me about a woman who decided to be a motivational speaker, she sat beside a guy on a plane who she chatted to was interested in hiring her, then she said she charged 500 an hour, they said, "That's too bad we only hire people who charge at least two grand an hour."

Oh well, I'm not really inclined to try and get much work this semester since I'll be in school and busy anyway. But during the year I'll put together a site, and lay out my portfolio with some of my better stuff. Try and do a few really artsy pieces.

Do you guys think that I should try and specialize just in illustration or? Since that seems to be where my strengths really are. I'm fine in Dreamweaver, and Fireworks, and I can get by in Flash but I hate the bloody app. I figure if I'm going to just do this part time and freelance I might as well try sticking to what I actually enjoy and see how big of a market there is for it.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Can you be gay without being so queer in every damn one of your posts?

seriously.

[ironknee]

salty
they are nice, not the first one though. question: why would anyone buy your drawings? as illustrations or as art? as art, ok then stick with friends and see if they pay you any money for it...next we'll see mom, dad, sis, spot...as was mentioned, they are not graphic design or illustrations. they are portraits...of friends.

but you can do more than that...

to be an illustrator that can sell, make your drawings mean something...try current events as a quick exercises to communicate an idea with it...without words...

[IceEnclosure]

Adam, you gave this guy false hopes. He's all up in his blog about it now.

I can't believe I went there and read it.

: \

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

Adam, you gave this guy false hopes.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

He's all up in his blog about it now.

I can't believe I went there and read it.

: \

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

Adam, you gave this guy false hopes. He's all up in his blog about it now.

I can't believe I went there and read it.

: \

The only thing worse than doing it was admitting it.

[Blasphemy]

heh

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

The only thing worse than doing it was admitting it.

Indeed. I tried to think of a punishment for ice, but I think he's suffered enough.

[IceEnclosure]

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

On topic (sort of): When I started portrait photography I was desperate to get people to hire me. I had insanely cheap prices with no sitting fees and I got the developed pictures to them as soon as I possibly could. No one would hire me. I asked a friend with good business sense why he thought I was having such a problem getting customers. He told me that at my rates people probably thought my product sucked because it was so cheap. So I jacked up my rate, added a sitting fee, and started actually not being as available. I have been pretty busy recently and getting a much better clientele.

What I learned: If your prices are cheap people will think your product is as well. If you seem desperate, people are going to wonder why no one else is using you.

Similarly sort-of-on-topic: a good blog entry by the guy who makes VoodooPad. I find the wine story in there particularly interesting. It's bizarre, but it actually does seem to work that way.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Similarly sort-of-on-topic: a good blog entry by the guy who makes VoodooPad. I find the wine story in there particularly interesting. It's bizarre, but it actually does seem to work that way.

Thanks for the link. It's the opposite of what you'd expect, but it's true.

It's kind of weird, but when I started doing commission woodworking work I always thought I wasn't charging enough because I put so much of myself into the pieces, although the prices I charge are pretty high considering they are about triple what you'd pay at a nice furniture store. My thoughts were that are buying a tangible object that will last forever if they treat it right, but I ended up spending so much time with the pieces that I wouldn't want to part with them when I was finally done with them. I know now that I can charge what I think the are worth and people will still pay the prices.

With photography I am simply selling a picture that will go on a wall and then be thrown out when everyone who know that person has died. Or gotten tired of looking at their image on the wall and put it in a box in the attic. My value of the pieces was flawed. People truly value a picture that makes them look good and is stylistic artistically. It's worth quite a bit to them.

When I have been considering advertising lately I have NOT been going with the lowest bidder because I have the underlying thought that they are cheap because they are no good.

I hate psychology, but it plays a GREAT role in everything we do.

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

I wish I had more time to devote to creativity, and a Wacom!

Tell me about it! Got my eyes keenly set on this puppy.

[Salty]

Dude if you don't have a Wacom at least get a Graphire, that's all I have and it's so many world's better than a mouse it's not even funny!

And ironknee, it's not that I go out and solicit people to buy predone work. It's that people on multiple occasions have come up to me and said, "Wow I love your work, would you be interested in doing a project for me?" It's less about me going and looking for work, and more about me taking the work that's being requested of me.
There's also a fairly popular Indie Musician who's stuff I like who's working on a book, he wants to have me do some illustrations for in it since, "Man I love your stuff."

Again, I don't even think I'm that good, but a lot of people like my stuff, and if they're willing to pay for it I'm fine with that.

[ghporter]

This is a very interesting thread -- EXCEPT for the off topic crap. Guys, if Salty asks for advice on relationships, then it's fine to talk about sexual orientation. There is NOTHING about sexual orientation involved with graphic design, artwork, photography, etc. I'd like to see more about the SUBJECT of this thread, and I'd like EVERYONE to remember that we do have rules about conduct, even here in the Lounge.

Further off-topic nastiness will be swiftly dealt with.

So on to the topic-what ever happened to the old "make me an offer" gambit? "What are your rates" works when you're dealing with someone who does more uniform, more consistent work, like fixing computers or building decks. To answer "I charge X per hour" invites either the "we only hire people who charge at least Y" response or "sure, we'll hire you-but we usually pay four times your rate", neither of which are great for your business. So if your work is creative, as in art or public speaking, NEVER provide a set rate for anything that's not cookie-cutter consistent. "I do prints of this poster for $75 each, and numbered, signed prints for $150, but custom stuff is something I negotiate for" is probably the best way to go about it.

My mom was a commercial artist for a LONG time, and while she had a "regular job" at an ad agency, she did work on the side-for a negotiated fee that was QUITE handsome. Find out your popularity by finding out what people WANT to pay for your work, not by telling them what you think you're worth. It will always be higher.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Salty 

Dude if you don't have a Wacom at least get a Graphire, that's all I have and it's so many world's better than a mouse it's not even funny!

And ironknee, it's not that I go out and solicit people to buy predone work. It's that people on multiple occasions have come up to me and said, "Wow I love your work, would you be interested in doing a project for me?" It's less about me going and looking for work, and more about me taking the work that's being requested of me.
There's also a fairly popular Indie Musician who's stuff I like who's working on a book, he wants to have me do some illustrations for in it since, "Man I love your stuff."

Again, I don't even think I'm that good, but a lot of people like my stuff, and if they're willing to pay for it I'm fine with that.

ok salty good for you

i was only giving my 2 cents...

so do u have one that was used?

[Angus_D]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

This is a very interesting thread -- EXCEPT for the off topic crap. Guys, if Salty asks for advice on relationships, then it's fine to talk about sexual orientation. There is NOTHING about sexual orientation involved with graphic design, artwork, photography, etc. I'd like to see more about the SUBJECT of this thread, and I'd like EVERYONE to remember that we do have rules about conduct, even here in the Lounge.

Wrong answer- TI

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Angus_D 

blah blah blah

Wow, Angus_D doesn't pray for three more pages — he just goes right out there and takes them.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Wow, Angus_D doesn't pray for three more pages — he just goes right out there and takes them.

Priceless.