[yikes600]

The point is that if you want a decent GPU on the mac side, you've got to pony up at least $1500 just for an AGP slot.
Since you bring up PC comparisons, here's a $500 Dell deal from about a week ago (apparently still valid) for a P4/2.8GHz desktop with PCI-E. Add a GeForce 6600 128MB from newegg.com for $126 and you're in business.

Oh yeah, that $499 pricetag included a 17" LCD.

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by iREZ:
I think the main reason there are defenders is that Apple doesn't proclaim that Doom can play on a Mac mini, or iMac G5. Sure they pumped up Halo, but that was in the graphics page of the PM G5. Apple doesn't care about the gaming public so it's none of their concern if you can or can't play your game on it.

http://www.apple.com/games/hardware/index.html#casual

Actually you're wrong. It talks about the mini's "FULL FLEDGED 32 meg piece of donkey **** video card so you can quote, 'get your game on'. BS. The 9200 is a shitbox card, that is already outdated. If by 'game' they mean solitaire, sure.... but nothing else.

- Ca$h

[Luca Rescigno]

Originally posted by Link:
My point? Your $500 computer thing is bullocks. Prove you can have a "decent" (P4 or A64, radeon 9800 or better, 512mb ram, modern HD, DVD drive, nice case) machine without cutting corners for less than $500 and I'll believe it. [/B]

Here's a system that costs a bit more than the higher-end mini while outperforming it by a safe margin:

Case: Antec SLK2600AMB w/ 300W PSU - $63
Motherboard: Epox 8KRAI-X Socket A - $50
CPU: AMD Barton 2500+ (1.83 GHz) - $77
Video card: Sapphire Radeon 9600 Pro - $104
Heatsink/Fan: Thermaltake Volcano 8 - $13
RAM: Viking 512 MB PC2700 - $72
Hard Drive: Western Digital 80 GB - $64
Optical Drive: AOpen 52x Combo drive - $33
Operating System: Windows XP Pro OEM - $149
Total price: $625 including shipping

So that's for a nice system that'll easily run circles around the mini. Now let's try one that is as similar to the mini in every way, including price. Basically, keep everything the same but replace the hard drive with a 40 GB (subtract $18), remove half the RAM (subtract $36), swap in a Radeon 9250 with DVI output (subtract $54), and replace the processor with, say, a 1.8 GHz Duron (subtract $26). If you do that, the total price becomes $491 including shipping. This stripped-down system includes a much faster hard drive than the mini, four times the video RAM, a 550 MHz-faster processor (though it does have less L2 cache), a much faster optical drive, and lots of room for expansion. Also, the mini will cost extra if you have to pay sales tax, which almost everyone does. Where I live, for instance, it would cost me $534 to get a barebones mini, because of a 7% sales tax.

Now, you may think I'm criticizing you. But what I'm saying actually supports your criticism of PCs. The mini is pretty impressive from a pricing standpoint. Just look - I definitely had to cut corners in order to downsize a PC to be comparable to the mini in both specs and price. And when it comes down to it, a PC and a mini with the same features will cost about the same. Plus, when you buy a mini, you get a small, cute package that's all ready to set up. If you buy those PC components I listed above, you have to put them all together. Some people (like me) find that fun. Others really don't want the hassle, or don't even know where to start. So the mini is a good deal after all.

On the other hand, there are certain things Macs just aren't meant for, like expandability. The PCs I assembled there are nearly as expandable as a $1500 PowerMac, with their only disadvantages being lack of PCI-X slots and not as many RAM slots. But those could be partially balanced out by their multiple internal hard drive and optical drive mounts, and large number of PCI slots.

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by Link:
Prove you can have a "decent" (P4 or A64, radeon 9800 or better, 512mb ram, modern HD, DVD drive, nice case) machine without cutting corners for less than $500 and I'll believe it.

Don't be a dumbass.

http://www.pricewatch.com/m/mn.aspx?i=43&f=1

Check out the loads of COMPLETE PC systems for under $300 even. Sure, they include 128 megs ram and a tiny hard drive, but guess what? Hard drives are dirt cheap, ram is cheap for these things, and you can spend $50 to get a video card 100X better than the outdated pieces of **** apple is shipping in their entire "CONSUMER" line.

http://www.maincomp.com/shop/case_info.jsp?id=75878&pw=

2.2 ghz p4, 128 megs ram, case, mobo, and power supply.

hard drive, ram, and video card.... poof, you're in business.

Here's another:

http://www.arsenalpc.com/Customize.asp?KitID=388&Res=2

I set up a 2+ ghz p4, 512 megs ram, mobo, 80 gig hard drive, windows XP home, case, power supply, and 128 meg DDR vid card for well under 500. Heck, I could even go with a 256 meg video card.

Here's another:

http://www.xtechnology.com//scr/xtca...or?item=PW-926

2ghz p4, 512 megs ddr 2700 ram, mobo, 40 gig 7200rpm hard drive, 128 meg ddr radeon video card, tower, 400w power supply, ethernet, windows Xp, AND a snazzy black case: $498

Both of these would OBLITERATE even the G5 imac in terms of gaming performance. Why? THE VIDEO CARD. The video card is the single most important thing for today's 3d games. The fact that LAST generation G4 imacs came with the same shitty video card that the current g5 imacs come with should tell you something: THEY SUCK! The 32 meg video card can't even drive big displays properly, let alone modern games....

Furthermore, this was for all brand new stuff. I can get tons of CD-roms, floppy drives, hard drives for next to nothing. They aren't worth crap. If I REALLY wanted to build a badass gaming rig... well, let's see:


http://www.bzboyz.com/store/product1089.html

3ghz p4 with motherboard and 256 megs memory: $250 SHIPPED

http://store.yahoo.com/amamax/pomaxc73blat2.html

Black case with windows, 550 watt power supply, cables, black DVD-rom, 2 tri color LED fans, 1 11" Blue cold Cathode (L33tness) + 7200rpm 40 gig drive + 256 meg DDR memory, AND boston acoustics speakers with subwoofer AND 128 meg DDR nvidea 5700

$230, SHIPPED

TOTAL FOR QUASI BADASS 3GHZ P4 / 512/ 128 DDR/ 40 gig/ black case/ 550 watts/ dvd rom/ l33t haxor blue LED fans/ cathodes: $480

For under $500 I have a computer that can bring any Apple system to it's knees, gaming wise.

Hey Link.... you are:

- Ca$h

[Captain Egotist]

BTW: I didn't include OS in that last one... why? Any gamer or person I know remotely interested in gaming already has a computer... hence they already have an OS. Heck, I don't know ANYBODY who's ever PAID for a copy of windows outside of the business world....

[Simon]

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by Simon:

[Luca Rescigno]

PLUS ONE.

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by Captain Egotist:
[B]But guess what? Most of those cheap PCs have a slot for a video card. Take any of them, spend $50-100 on a video card, and BAM, you have decent gaming performance.



Actually they really ARE dirt cheap. I could build a pretty badass gaming PC for under $500 quite easily..... however, it won't run OSX, so I don't want it.

Again, I'm not saying that the mini should be GREAT at games.... nor the imac... I don't need 200fps... but the fact that the ONLY mac in the entire lineup with ROOM for a gaming video card is the uber-expensive PRO model is stupid.

- Rob

Rob - I appreciate your style! Too many people blindly advocate Apple hardware, and I agree with you that 32megs VRAM is just *simply* *not* *enough*.

But, thats about the only real shortcoming of the Mini. Modern GPUs produce a lot of heat. The Radeon 9200 is probably the coolest running of all GPUs these days that doesn't require active (or even passive) cooling solutions. The 9200 is about as good as you can get in the Mini's form factor. I believe the 9200 is better than the "mobile" chipsets found in the Powerbooks and iBooks (If someone has benchmarks, feel free to prove me wrong).

But the 32megs VRAM! Their is always a rub with 1st gen Apple hardware, and the 32megs seems to be it in this case. I'd like more just to smooth Expose... and it is a little ridiculous I'm running a 20" Widescreen with a piddly GPU.

Heres to RevB!

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by yikes600:
The point is that if you want a decent GPU on the mac side, you've got to pony up at least $1500 just for an AGP slot.
Since you bring up PC comparisons, here's a $500 Dell deal from about a week ago (apparently still valid) for a P4/2.8GHz desktop with PCI-E. Add a GeForce 6600 128MB from newegg.com for $126 and you're in business.

Oh yeah, that $499 pricetag included a 17" LCD.

Not to dispute your general point... it *cannot* be argued that one could put together a decent gaming rig for around the price of a Mini.

I just put a Dell together for $736.
2.8ghz P4
512MB RAM (DDR2 SDRAM)
80GB 7200RPM HD
16X DVDRW (Dual Layer)
Radeon X300 PCI Express X16
5.1 Channel Audio
Keyboard & Mouse

Compare to the Mini...
$599 Model
Add 256megs RAM (+$75)
Add Superdrive (+$100)
Add Keyboard/Mouse (+$59)
equals $833

The Mini is $100 more, and is about "half" as powerful as the Dell. The Dell will play games.

*I OWN AND USE A MINI* but lets not kid ourselves any longer and blindly state that similar PCs are crap. The above speced Dell is more comparable to a base-line G5.

Problem is, it doesn't run OS X... and thats what it all comes down to. But really! The Mini puts Apple right where it always has been on the price/value curve (which had grown even "worse" in recent years). The Mini is not Apple's Gift the Masses. It was a necessary reaction to the continued decline in Personal Computer prices.

Jeff W.

[bpd115]

Look, of course you can build your own killer gaming rig for cheap. You can also buy an expandable Dell.

The Mini isn't ment to be a gaming rig (when Apple says Casual gaming they mean Nanosaur, Marble Blast, and games by Freeverse etc.). It is ment to be someone's intro to OSX or a computer for someone who wants to surf the web, email, manage digital photos and their iTunes etc.

This is NOT a power user's computer. My fiancee bought one simply for the iLife apps, internet and email, and as she is a teacher, design lesson plans and other school related tasks. She loves the Mini.

Like I said, it's great to go buy a Dell or build your own Gaming Rig for under $600. A lot of people are into that.

But it still runs Windows. After using OSX for the last 2 years, I don't want to go back to that world where I need to tweak my PC, install spybot, adaware, an Anti Virus, a pop up blocker, do an hour of Windows updates, and look at a Fisher Price interface which can not compare to OSX (But you can skin it! yeah I don't want to) clik NO I DON'T WANT TO TAKE A TOUR OF XP 5 times, go to MSCONFIG and remove things that were placed in my start up which do not need to be...

Windows CAN run well and my PC is fine when I need it and has no issues (mostly because I hardly touch it I guess)...but I don't feel like baby sitting my computer and having to do all of the above to make it usable. I just want it to work.

Also, do not advocate Pirating Windows or any software for that matter.

[SmileyDude]

Originally posted by bpd115:
But it still runs Windows. After using OSX for the last 2 years, I don't want to go back to that world where I need to tweak my PC, install spybot, adaware, an Anti Virus, a pop up blocker, do an hour of Windows updates, and look at a Fisher Price interface which can not compare to OSX (But you can skin it! yeah I don't want to) clik NO I DON'T WANT TO TAKE A TOUR OF XP 5 times, go to MSCONFIG and remove things that were placed in my start up which do not need to be...

And there lies the problem, IMO -- your choices are in the lower end are as follows: cheap Windows box that can run games, Mac mini that has limited VRAM, and therefore, can't run games as well, or buy a PS2/GameCube/XBox instead.

I really would like to have a low end Mac that wasn't soooo permanetly crippled like the mini is in regards to graphics. I don't want a Windows machine, and I don't want to/can't spend $1500 for a PM G5.

I know it's pretty tight inside the mini (I've taken a look myself), but I don't understand why only 32MB of VRAM. Especially with the performance hit the mini takes with Expos� and bigger displays NOW. I would like to see Tiger help out in this regard, but I'm not really optimistic.

Having said all of that, I still love my mini -- it can play WarCraft III just fine, but then again, how old is WCIII now? Its minimum requirements are a 400mhz G3 with a Rage 128... of course the mini should play that fine

My other complaints about the mini are easily fixed after the purchase (slow hard drive and memory). If the VRAM was easily fixed as well, I would have even less to complain about.

[bpd115]

as for the 32 mb of VRAM yeah, I agree it's low. The reason Apple did this? I have no idea. And yes you are right, it will slow down Expose at large resolutions.

The mini though wasn't aimed at gamers. This isn't a Doom 3 box. It's a box to play bounce out biltz and Freeverse games on if you want.

I love games...I have a PS2, Xbox and Gamecube. My PC has a TI 4600 which isn't the greatest anymore (but cost me as much as a mini back in the day)...

My problem is TIME....between work and a fiancee I have about an hour a day to play games....with my love of NBA and NFL video games along with other great games coming out on the consoles, I still have yet to beat games like Metroid Prime (don't even have 2 yet!) Zelda, Mario Sunshine, GTA San Andreas, Halo 2

For the Casual Gamer who wants a Mac, the solution is to buy a mini and a refurb Gamecube from EB games for 59 bucks along with an Xbox or PS2 perhaps.

That's plenty of gaming for me.

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by bpd115:
Look, of course you can build your own killer gaming rig for cheap. You can also buy an expandable Dell.

The Mini isn't ment to be a gaming rig (when Apple says Casual gaming they mean Nanosaur, Marble Blast, and games by Freeverse etc.). It is ment to be someone's intro to OSX or a computer for someone who wants to surf the web, email, manage digital photos and their iTunes etc.

Of course not. Apple's value is in it's software and hardware "design", but not performance for dollar. Not in dispute.

What is in dispute are the biased assertions that similarly priced PCs are garbage PCs and *also* incapable of gaming. Simply not true. For the price of a Mini you can gave a sure-fire gaming rig that can run the latest games very well.

It comes down to the usual trade-off... do I want an Apple with its excellent OS, ease of use, nifty hardware design, and "managed system" -- or am I willing to give all that up for something capable of playing games and nearly every app that suits me?

Some of us wisely choose the former (and buy a console for games and just "deal" with the fact that some software just isn't available).

Recognize, however, that there is indeed a tradeoff.

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by SmileyDude:
I know it's pretty tight inside the mini (I've taken a look myself), but I don't understand why only 32MB of VRAM. Especially with the performance hit the mini takes with Expos� and bigger displays NOW.

The 32megs VRAM is maddening. Apple picks, sometimes, the wrong places to "cripple" in the interest of maintaining price-point discrimination across the line. 32megs to 64megs can't be that much more in cost.

The FX 5200 in the iMac is forgivable (it is afine enough GPU for Expose and the upcoming Tiger)... but the fact is that the Mini's 32megs VRAM isn't even enough to run Apple's *low end* monitor properly. Don't they realize they are shooting themselves in the foot? People will opt for a non-Apple 17" or 19" just because Expose is "choppy" at 1620 x 1080.

[Mysteri0]

Originally posted by elvis2000:
The 32megs VRAM is maddening. Apple picks, sometimes, the wrong places to "cripple" in the interest of maintaining price-point discrimination across the line. 32megs to 64megs can't be that much more in cost.

The FX 5200 in the iMac is forgivable (it is afine enough GPU for Expose and the upcoming Tiger)... but the fact is that the Mini's 32megs VRAM isn't even enough to run Apple's *low end* monitor properly. Don't they realize they are shooting themselves in the foot? People will opt for a non-Apple 17" or 19" just because Expose is "choppy" at 1620 x 1080.

Frankly I'd be surprised if it doesn't actually already have 64megs and apple has just firmware locked the other 32megs of VRAM. Apple tends to do silly things like this to force consumers to upgrade, case in point would be the ibook were it only mirrors the display you don't have the option for using it as a second monitor, to get that you need to upgrade to a powerbook... or run a hack.

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by bpd115:
The Mini isn't ment to be a gaming rig (when Apple says Casual gaming they mean Nanosaur, Marble Blast, and games by Freeverse etc.). It is ment to be someone's intro to OSX or a computer for someone who wants to surf the web, email, manage digital photos and their iTunes etc.

WRONG. I quote apple's webpage regarding the mini:

' Whether you�re just beginning to explore games, or already a player, the Mac mini provides a sensational gaming experience � both off and online.'

NOTE: It says it does not matter if you're a beginner, or already a player, the mini will provide "SENSATIONAL" performance... The only thing sensational it will provide is sensational slowness.

This (mac mini) is NOT a power user's computer.

I understand this, but that is not my point. I'm not saying that the mini should play games extremely well.... I don't think it needs to.

HOWEVER, I DO THINK THAT AN UPSCALE MAC IN THE "CONSUMER" LINEUP SHOULD PLAY GAMES WELL. GAMES ARE AIMED AT THE CONSUMER MARKET, NOT THE PROFESSIONAL MARKET. THE FACT TAHT YOU HAVE TO SPEND $1500 TO EVEN GET A DAMN VIDEO CARD SLOT IS STUPID. THE IMAC OR SOMETHING LIKE IT SHOULD HAVE AN UPGRADABLE VIDEO CARD OR AT THE VERY LEAST A BTO OPTION FOR A POWERFUL GAMING CARD

Also, do not advocate Pirating Windows or any software for that matter.

I wasn't. I was stating that most people who are going to build a gaming PC already have a copy of windows on their current machine.

- Rob

[yikes600]

The 32MB Radeon 9200 must be a custom deal for Apple. Try finding a 32MB variant of the Radeon 9200 ANYWHERE. They all have at least 64MB (even these 64MB versions cost under $30). Elvis2000 said it best: the hardware is purposely crippled in the interest of maintaining price-point discrimination across the line. A win situation for Apple but horrible for the consumer.

[Simon]

Originally posted by elvis2000:
People will opt for a non-Apple 17" or 19" just because Expose is "choppy" at 1620 x 1080.

I have to call BS on this one.

I use a 20" ACD at that res with 32 MB VRAM and have yet to see anything "choppy" about Expos�. With a dozen open windows, I can't see an Expos� difference between 32 MB VRAM and 64 MB VRAM. Not even when I hook up a 23" ACD.

More VRAM certainly has advantages, and I'm not at all trying to advocate 32 MB VRAM for any Mac (not even in the mini), but your example is just plain not correct.

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by bpd115:
The mini though wasn't aimed at gamers.

Fine! The problem is there is NOTHING that apple sells that is REMOTELY decent at gaming save for the super f*cking expensive G5 tower!!!!!!!!

I'll break it down for you:

Mini: fast processor, cheap, portable
Problem: **** video card, no way to upgrade it at all

iMac: really fast processor, nice display, fast bus, fast everything
Problem: Outdated shitty video card that was outdated when it was in g4 imacs ... also no way to upgrade

G5 tower: Fast processor, fast everything
Problem: PRICE and size

G4 cube: Perfect size, fast (at the time) processor, easy upgrade HD and... A ****ING SLOT FOR A VIDEO CARD HALLELUJAH! HOLY CRAP!
Problem: Apple stupidly inflated the price way beyond what it was worth. Look at the mini. It's basically the cube with more expensive components, and it's dirt cheap. The reason the cube failed? PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE PRICE.

I would pay $1000 for a $500 1.25ghz g4 mac mini IF it had a video card slot.

- Rob

[Simon]

Originally posted by Captain Egotist:
I would pay $1000 for a $500 1.25ghz g4 mac mini IF it had a video card slot.

And Apple doesn't want to give it to you. Tough luck. Get over yourself. Give your money to the competition and/or get a game console.

[mbryda]

Originally posted by elvis2000:
*I OWN AND USE A MINI* but lets not kid ourselves any longer and blindly state that similar PCs are crap. The above speced Dell is more comparable to a base-line G5.

ANY DELL IS CRAP. It doesn't matter what, it's all crap. Trust me, I've been in the business long enough to see how much of a POS they are.

And that Dell machine will benchmark on the near bootom of the pack as well.

Glad I don't game. I could care less if my machine had a 10MB video card as long as it does the 2d resolution in 32-bit color....

But then again, most that I know who game gave up on the PC stuff anyway (too expensive and too time consuming) and got Xboxes or PS2 and hooked them up to their big screen....

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by elvis2000:
Some of us wisely choose the former (and buy a console for games and just "deal" with the fact that some software just isn't available).

Recognize, however, that there is indeed a tradeoff.

Agreed. But there doesn't have to be. Apple PROVED that with the cube. All apple needs to do is take a 1.25 ghz processor, throw it on the g4 cube motherboard, and throw that in a stupid white plastic box. Poof.

The only reason the cube failed was becuase it was ridiculously overpriced.

- Rob

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by Simon:
And Apple doesn't want to give it to you. Tough luck. Get over yourself. Give your money to the competition and/or get a game console.

**** you, you dumbass apple defender. I bet you love your one button mouse too, right moron? God...

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by mbryda:
ANY DELL IS CRAP.

Fine, but guess what? That 'crap' has the advantage of having a god damn graphics card slot.... even the $300 dell systems.

In comparison, the only apple computer to have even an upgrade of a graphics card costs $1500 and up.

That is STUPID.

PERIOD.

[SmileyDude]

Originally posted by Simon:
And Apple doesn't want to give it to you. Tough luck. Get over yourself. Give your money to the competition and/or get a game console.

well that's a pretty crappy attitude...

I know that Apple can't chase every possible market for the Mac.... they have to pick and choose carefully. But, there is a big hole in their lineup now that the mini has created. There is no low end, expandable Mac anywhere in the line. Why can't Apple take the G4 PowerMac of a few years ago, strip out most (all?) of the PCI slots, leave the AGP slot, put it in a smaller box, use standard desktop drives, and ship it for $700 or so? Maybe it could be the Mac micro?

of course, i don't happen to work at Apple, so I don't know what the reasons might be... but I'm sure they are afraid of hurting iMac and PM G5 sales with that machine. Maybe in a year or two, if the mini continues to sell well, they might do something like this...

[iREZ]

Read the words in blue, don't look at them, read them. I rest my case. Apple knows games aren't a huge market as all you squares make it seem it is. Maybe in the future Apple will, hopefully, give us some decent gaming machines, but right now they're pushing iLife so far down the consumers throat so you know they don't care about games. Just deal with it and play with your xbox, cube, PS, or PC and stop complaining. You guys make it seem like I like my 12" Powerbook having a crappy Nvidia Go chip, don't get me wrong I don't but stop bitching already geezus.

[MichiganRich]

Sounds like I'm gonna have to get gatep5 in here to remind you guys to 'grow up' and 'show a little class'... there seems to be way too much 'back-talk' and 'sarcasm'...

*laughs*

I bought an e-Machines tower, a really nice one with Media Center Edition, to learn XP and have more cross-platform knowledge. What I learned is that OSX really is worth paying extra for, and that XP is a pain. WTF is a registry anyway?

That said, the XP box kicks as far as games go. The video card was inexpensive and powerful. I do like it for that. But if I could only have one, I would have a Mac for computerin' and an xbox or ps2 for playin'.

I hope this post is classy enough for gatep5, I reallllly do...

p.s.- how did this topic devolve to the age-old argument?... oh wait, they ALWAYS DO....

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by iREZ:


Read the words in blue, don't look at them, read them.

After that, realize that I am a casual gamer, and I don't think that 20fps is good enough for a 'casual' gamer, it's obnoxious. Then read the more descriptive words BELOW the generalized blue heading. The ones that say specific things like 'it doesn't matter if you're new to gaming or a player, the mac mini has sensational perforamnce' THAT IS A LIE.

- Ca$h

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by SmileyDude:
There is no low end, expandable Mac anywhere in the line. Why can't Apple take the G4 PowerMac of a few years ago, strip out most (all?) of the PCI slots, leave the AGP slot, put it in a smaller box, use standard desktop drives, and ship it for $700 or so? Maybe it could be the Mac micro?

There's already a perfect motherboard: The cube. Just throw on a faster processor and guess what? It even uses CHEAP hard drives and optical drives. Heck, it could even cost the same as a mini, it'd just be bigger and uglier!

- Rob

[bpd115]

Why are y'all arguing over gaming on the Mac? It is not news that the gaming market on the Mac is Halo, UT 2004, and Freeverse games. That's really it aside from WoW and other PC ports that come out 6 months after the fact.

There is a spymac member who says his mini plays UT 2004 fine at mid settings on 800 x 600. Good enough for you? Probably not. Good enough for 'Casual Gamers'? Probably. The fact you want an AGP slot mid level Mac answers the question about where you place gaming on your computing task list. It's great to have a GeForce 6800 Ultra for the Mac...I'd love to have one in my Powermac....then I realize...What game as are there to play?.....I am going to get a 256 MB Radeon 9800 for my Mac since the price of that card has fallen...not for games though, for Motion and to juice up Tiger (but we'll see how that plays out).

If you want to play PC games, buy a PC.


I can see it now..."DOOM 3 WON'T RUN ON MY MAC MINI!!!!!"

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by yikes600:
The 32MB Radeon 9200 must be a custom deal for Apple. Try finding a 32MB variant of the Radeon 9200 ANYWHERE. They all have at least 64MB (even these 64MB versions cost under $30). Elvis2000 said it best: the hardware is purposely crippled in the interest of maintaining price-point discrimination across the line. A win situation for Apple but horrible for the consumer.

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by Simon:
I have to call BS on this one.

I use a 20" ACD at that res with 32 MB VRAM and have yet to see anything "choppy" about Expos�. With a dozen open windows, I can't see an Expos� difference between 32 MB VRAM and 64 MB VRAM. Not even when I hook up a 23" ACD.

Don't try to ******** me! I have a mini hooked to a 20" widescreen and Expose is choppy (ok... "inconsistently smooth").

What, are you "stepping up" from a dual-USB iBook?

Elvis

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by mbryda:
ANY DELL IS CRAP. It doesn't matter what, it's all crap. Trust me, I've been in the business long enough to see how much of a POS they are.

A PC is a PC is a PC these days. I opened up my (For Sale!) HP and lo and behold an ASUS mainboard, Samsung DVD (not even an HP), generic Power Supply, etc etc. The only thing unique to Dell is the case design.

Dell's laptops are manufactured by Compal. Same company that makes about half of all Toshibas, HPs, Compaqs, etc etc.

The Apple Powerbook is made by Asus. Same company that makes the mainboard in my HP.

You can buy the Apple Powerbook in PC form even.You can buy the Apple Powerbook's "close cousin" from Asus

Do you really believe Apple computers are built by happy singing gnomes and Dells by enslaved robots?

[elvis2000]

Originally posted by bpd115:


If you want to play PC games, buy a PC.


I can see it now..."DOOM 3 WON'T RUN ON MY MAC MINI!!!!!"

The argument started as someone claimed the mini was comparable to a similarly priced PC. Not exactly is the response.

[Simon]

Originally posted by elvis2000:
Don't try to ******** me! I have a mini hooked to a 20" widescreen and Expose is choppy (ok... "inconsistently smooth").

******** you???



Give me a break. As an example, I have a 12" rev B PowerBook with a crappy and God awful 5200Go and a tiny 32 MB VRAM. My Expos� with a dozen or so windows open on a 23" ACD is perfectly smooth. If your mini can't do that, it's either its 9200 or you've got some kind of a software problem, but it's certainly not the 32 MB VRAM. Just by looking at Expos�, I can see no difference between the 64 MB VRAM card in my PowerMac and there 32 MB VRAM in my PowerBook. Games, oh yeah. Expos�, no way.

But that's not really issue here, is it? The issue is that Cash is celebrating a little tantrum like my 3 year old sometimes does. The only thing is, a 3 year old doesn't know much better. With Cash, assuming he's been 12 already, it's just a disgrace. Passing out 'fsck you' and other niceness just because Steve decided to not cater to him personally, makes him look rather pathetic. Apple has certainly made many mistakes, but if he can't handle that like a man, he shouldn't post on an adult board.

Originally posted by elvis2000:
The argument started as someone claimed the mini was comparable to a similarly priced PC. Not exactly is the response.

Absolutely. It's by far not comparable, because the PC doesn't have OS X or iLife. The comparably priced PC sucks chunks compared to the mini. The only thing going for the PC is its expandability which makes it a good gaming system. And everybody has acknowledged that fact ages ago. But, if somebody can't get over this and still hasn't bought a gaming PC or a console instead of an mini, he's either a) a masochist, b) stubborn, or c) a troll. Or maybe all of them together.

You can flame me all you want, but the facts are crystal clear.

[bpd115]

The bottom line here and I think this was posted earlier in the thread is, what do you intend to do with the computer? Want to play UT and Doom 3 and Half Life 2? Buy a "similar" priced Dell or whatever.

Want to run OSX, iLife, dabble in music creation, film editing with iMovie, Final Cut Express, video chat with family far away with iChat AV, Surf the web with no spyware and popups, email with no viruses all for a low price? Go with the Mini.

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by bpd115:
The bottom line here and I think this was posted earlier in the thread is, what do you intend to do with the computer? Want to play UT and Doom 3 and Half Life 2? Buy a "similar" priced Dell or whatever.

Want to run OSX, iLife, dabble in music creation, film editing with iMovie, Final Cut Express, video chat with family far away with iChat AV, Surf the web with no spyware and popups, email with no viruses all for a low price? Go with the Mini.

And what if I'd like to run OSX, ilife, etc and occasionally play a NEWER game and get DECENT performance at full screen?

Oh, I know, bend over the couch because the only ****ing mac available with a vid card slot costs a ****ing shitload.

- Ca$h

PS: I"M NOT SAYING THE GOD DAMN MINI SHOULD PLAY DOOM3! What the ****ing hell is wrong with you people?!?!! I'm saying that GAMES are for CONSUMERs, not PROFESSIONALS. And right now, all of the consumer macs CANNOT PLAY GAMES VERY WELL AT ALL AND EVEN WORSE YOU CANNOT FIX THE SITUATION BY PURCAHSING A $150 VID CARD!!!!!!!!

You should NOT have to purchase a PROFESSIONAL expensive machine to enjoy a modern game at a reasonable FPS at full resolution.

[Captain Egotist]

Originally posted by bpd115:
Why are y'all arguing over gaming on the Mac? It is not news that the gaming market on the Mac is Halo, UT 2004, and Freeverse games. That's really it aside from WoW and other PC ports that come out 6 months after the fact.

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WHY IS THAT?


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Give you a hint...


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CONSUMERS tend to be the ones who want to play games......

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Most mac users have consumer machines...


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And every god damn CONSUMER mac has such a shitty video card that it makes any recent game a horrible annoying experience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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HENCE, anyone who would like to play games once in a while, EVEN IF THEY REALLY LIKE OSX LIKE MOST OF MY FRIENDS AGES 18-27, THEY WILL NOT BUY AN APPLE COMPUTER BECAUSE THE CONSUMER LINE UP SUCKS BIG DONKEY BALLS AT GAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[turtle777]

^^^^

Don't ya'll hate it when Crash hijacks a thread...

-t

[paully dub]

Cash, rather than ranting pointlessly on this forum why don't you address these very important questions ( ) issues with someone qualified to actually answer it?

I see these "consumer" macs in all kinds of work environments. Everyone loves em, and nobody's complaining about fps, I can assure you.

And 99.9% of gamers I know wouldn't be attracted to macs even if they did have upgradeable video cards.

[bpd115]

Get it through your head Cash....

Macs are not for games aside from Freeverse and GameHouse games.

The mini will play UT2004 at 800x600 and that's pushing it.

No matter what Apple puts on their website....

If you want to play a "Newer Game" at Hi Res, buy an Xbox or a PC to use just for games.

Lets repeat Macs are not ment for hard core gaming and never will be.

"CONSUMERS tend to be the ones who want to play games......"

No, GAMERS are the ones who want to play games. The 3D intensive games that you're complaining about anyway.

Do you think my 50 year old mother is going to be mad that her Mac can't run UT2004 (which is a lie since it can, but not MAXXXED OUT ROXOR)?

Apple does not have a cheap gaming Mac. Get over it.