[peeb]

US accused of holding terror suspects on prison ships | World news | The Guardian

Great, just great. When will the US realize that the rest of the world does not 'hate them for their freedoms'. They hate them for this ****. Secret prisons don't seem like a great idea.

[Zeeb]

It's amazing how quickly and effectively Bush has more or less single-handedly eroded human rights in the U.S. and abroad. The most insideous part is that the American public does not seem to be outraged at all--and do not even understand why this situations like this are a big deal.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

It's amazing how quickly and effectively Bush has more or less single-handedly eroded human rights in the U.S. and abroad. The most insideous part is that the American public does not seem to be outraged at all--and do not even understand why this situations like this are a big deal.

I'm no Bush supporter but must point out that he had a majority of Congress -- Dems included -- for this little odyssey. In other words, 'single-handed' isn't an accurate description of how this came about.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Secret prisons don't seem like a great idea.

In recent years the US under Dems and Reps has been driven by poor decision making. This is but one example.

[Zeeb]

Oh sure, plenty of Democrats went along with it. However, Bush skillfully used an unusual and powerful opportunity--the fear generated by 9/11--to convince a wide range of people (Democrats included) to essentially give up some of their rights. Anyway, this has been discussed exhaustively here. My question is, what will happen to those prison ships when Obama or McCain become President?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

Oh sure, plenty of Democrats went along with it. However, Bush skillfully used an unusual and powerful opportunity--the fear generated by 9/11--to convince a wide range of people (Democrats included) to essentially give up some of their rights. Anyway, this has been discussed exhaustively here. My question is, what will happen to those prison ships when Obama or McCain become President?

And what have the Democrats done to turn the tide? Nada. They're too busy remodeling every free king post office in America. Check the record, that's what they've spent most of their time doing.

McCain would give us another four years of the Bush agenda. Obama, well, we can expect in the short term for a repeat of the early Clinton days -- little progress, many missteps, little progress, lots of fights. IOW, short term, nothing.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by art_director 

McCain would give us another four years of the Bush agenda.

Really, what evidence is there of this? McCain has opposed Bush on most (not all) issues. I keep hearing this from (H)Obama but it is in direct opposition to the facts of the past 8 years.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Really, what evidence is there of this? McCain has opposed Bush on most (not all) issues. I keep hearing this from (H)Obama but it is in direct opposition to the facts of the past 8 years.

McCain has not voted against Bush once this year that I know of.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Really, what evidence is there of this? McCain has opposed Bush on most (not all) issues. I keep hearing this from (H)Obama but it is in direct opposition to the facts of the past 8 years.

On Iraq I think McCain is right in that we can't just leave. That would just make matters worse now and into the future. We'd leave behind a killing ground and incubator for terrorists. That said, McCain wants to remain in Iraq indefinitely. Thus far he's not carved out a coherent plan for 'winning', what ever that may mean. That's one way in which he'd extend the Bush regime.

In my view Obama is dead wrong on this issue and it scares the hell out of me.

Something everyone should do is study up on the candidates in this and every race. The best place I've found for those slithering in the Beltway is GovTrack.us -- the candidates can't hide behind speeches, press releases and bad TV spots.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by art_director 

That said, McCain wants to remain in Iraq indefinitely. Thus far he's not carved out a coherent plan for 'winning', what ever that may mean. That's one way in which he'd extend the Bush regime.

I really think his aim is not to 'win', but to maintain a permanent large military presence in the Middle East. That's the goal of the Bush/McCain camp.

[tie]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Really, what evidence is there of this? McCain has opposed Bush on most (not all) issues. I keep hearing this from (H)Obama but it is in direct opposition to the facts of the past 8 years.

Really? There are very few issues that McCain has opposed Bush on. He once opposed torture, but now he even supports that. On a lot of issues he has tried to appear different, but he supports the same policies. I guess you could believe what he is saying, that the policies he will support as president will be very different from those he has supported as a senator. But realistically that seems unlikely.

McCain is very close to Bush on nearly all issues. However, I do think that he is a smarter person, who cares about the US---I think Bush cares more about oil companies than about Americans, see, e.g., his reaction to Katrina. So perhaps he will implement Bush's policies with some minimal level of competence.

[peeb]

I can't think of a single occasion this year when McCain has opposed Bush. Seriously - let's see if we can find one shall we?

[Chuckit]

That's a totally meaningful and representative sample of his entire political career, right?

[peeb]

It's a totally meaningful and representative sample of what he thinks of the pressing issues facing the US this year.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I really think his aim is not to 'win', but to maintain a permanent large military presence in the Middle East. That's the goal of the Bush/McCain camp.

That certainly appears to be the case. It would also be in keeping with US military / oil strategy for decades. Fact is, until we replace oil, the countries who have it, or control over it, rule the world. We've long made sure we had such power.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

That's a totally meaningful and representative sample of his entire political career, right?

It would paint a picture of what a McCain policy might look like. Which, judging from this revelation, looks suspiciously like a Bush White House.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by peeb 

it's A Totally Meaningful And Representative Sample Of What He Thinks Of The Pressing Issues Facing The Us This Year.

Bingo!

[smacintush]

First of all, I don't care about only THIS YEAR. Bush has been there for 8.

Second, yes I was overstating his opposition to Bush. He did oppose Bush on stem cell, initially voted against the Bush tax cuts, campaign finance reform, etc. but I was conflating the way both of them disagree with most of the party on some key issues with McCain disagreeing with Bush.

Either way McCain sucks so whatever.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Either way McCain sucks so whatever.

Too bad the Democracks just effed it up.

Hillary had a chance against McCain, Obama doesn't. Be prepared for another 4 years.

-t

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by peeb 

US accused of holding terror suspects on prison ships | World news | The Guardian

Great, just great. When will the US realize that the rest of the world does not 'hate them for their freedoms'. They hate them for this ****. Secret prisons don't seem like a great idea.

Secret western prisons are five star hotels compared to Muslim prisons. When did we start trusting The Guadian for news btw?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Too bad the Democracks just effed it up.

Hillary had a chance against McCain, Obama doesn't. Be prepared for another 4 years.

-t

Why do you say this? Contrast Obama's speech with McCain's and McCain lost that exchange about as badly as one could ever imagine. McCain appeared woefully clumsy, tired, and obsolete while Obama had fresh perspective, an aggressive vision, and a degree of passion exponentially greater than McCain.

The country may in fact be ready for the leader who can read most effectively from a Teleprompter and motivate the masses. I think McCain is in real trouble.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Hillary had a chance against McCain, Obama doesn't. Be prepared for another 4 years.

When you look at May polls and earlier that's what they say. But remember that polls can be wrong and, more importantly, May polls and November polls the same thing are not.

[NZFL]

299:04:59:06 Till Bush leaves office

[art_director]

Is it just me or are others here cool with him knocking off a few months early?

[chabig]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

When did we start trusting The Guadian for news btw?

When they uncovered the story about the black helicopters.

[art_director]

The Guardian is infinitely more credible than most American media. Of course, what's that saying ...

[peeb]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Secret western prisons are five star hotels compared to Muslim prisons. When did we start trusting The Guadian for news btw?

I love that the US has dropped it's standards in the field of human rights and civil liberties to 'one step up from the worst in the world'. By the way, what is a 'Muslim prison'? Are we talking about Guantanamo here?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Secret western prisons are five star hotels compared to Muslim prisons. When did we start trusting The Guadian for news btw?

Can you please direct me to the five-star hotels that have their guests blind folded and stacked in a nude pyramid? Sounds like a nice weekend get away for the family.

[peeb]

"Room service? Yeah, I'd like electrodes attached to my genitals, and an attack dog loosed in my room."

[art_director]

"Ahhh ... I see you're in room 1600. What current would you like to flow into your genitalia? Also, we're fresh out of German Shepards. Would you mind a pair Rottweilers at no extra charge?"

[peeb]

"Give it all you've got - shame about the dogs, naah, can I have a goon hold my head underwater till I almost drown instead?"

[art_director]

"Yes, we can arrange for deluxe water boarding. It is less expensive than the package you purchased. At this late date we're unable to issue a refund. How about we throw in a photo session with a female soldier gesturing & posing near your genitalia to make up for the difference?"

[peeb]

"Perfect! This secret prison and torture chamber is much nicer than the foreign one I was illegally shipped to by you guys last year!"

[art_director]

"We're so happy to hear you say that. We call that room the Shock & Awe Suite. We guarantee it will bomb your senses back to the Stone Age."

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Is it just me or are others here cool with him knocking off a few months early?

I'm cool with the guy in office. I have larger faults with Congress, and the lack of conservative leadership among Republicans in the Senate.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Can you please direct me to the five-star hotels that have their guests blind folded and stacked in a nude pyramid? Sounds like a nice weekend get away for the family.

Is that known standard practice in our prisons or is this a bit like calling you a gunman because I saw some Americans shooting up a school on the news?

[olePigeon]

"A Rottweiler bit me the bum! All I wanted was an argument!"
"Oh! Terribly sorry, we thought you wanted physical torture. This is room 21A, you want arguments in room 21B."
"Ah, thank you very much."
"Not a problem at all!"
"... What a stupid concept."

[art_director]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

I'm cool with the guy in office. I have larger faults with Congress, and the lack of conservative leadership among Republicans in the Senate.

Given what the Republicans have done to this nation in recent years they all best keep a low profile. No doubt voters will be showing many of them the door come November.

I maintain that a balance of power best serves the people. When either party has control of the White House and Congress you get bad decision making. Recent years serve as proof.

It's easy for me to have this view, I'm independent of party affiliation. I think they both suck.

[NZFL]

228:19:57:22 Till (Adolf)Bush Leaves Office.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by NZFL 

228:19:57:22 Till (Adolf)Bush Leaves Office.

You are my favorite PWL'er.

Seriously.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by art_director 

Given what the Republicans have done to this nation in recent years they all best keep a low profile. No doubt voters will be showing many of them the door come November.

I maintain that a balance of power best serves the people. When either party has control of the White House and Congress you get bad decision making. Recent years serve as proof.

What do you mean by "what the Republicans have done to this country" and "recent years serve as proof"? Any specific gripes?

Originally Posted by art_director 

It's easy for me to have this view, I'm independent of party affiliation.

Surely you have some core belief structure that is more similar to one side than another, right?

I am conservative, and the only viable way to promote conservativism is via the Republican Party. I have no problems holding them to account, but in reality that's the only tent within which my ideas can compete.

[placebo1969]

At this point, isn't the whole issue merely an allegation that hasn't been proven one way or another?

[peeb]

No. It's been pretty much proven that the US is running secret prisons and torturing people there as well as illegally rendering people to third countries for torture.

[NZFL]

The US and Israel are all NAZIS

[peeb]

I think we should reserve that word for actual members of the 1940s National Socialist party in Germany to be honest.

[NZFL]

Oh, ok, The US and Israel are Fascists

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I love that the US has dropped it's standards in the field of human rights and civil liberties to 'one step up from the worst in the world'.

Guantanamo has been by far a very secure and well cared for prison compared to the prisons Americans get put into in California and Texas. Those guys who have been killing or oppressing dozens if not hundreds and thousands of civilians in Afghanistan or Iraq are having it too ****ing easy. Put them in San Quentin and we'll see if they are the real men they thought they were when they were blowing up markets and shooting women on football fields.

Even secret prisons and some waterboarding of those bastards is poofy compared to a REAL American prison.

By the way, what is a 'Muslim prison'?

A prison in Pakistan or Egypt or other Muslim country which a terrorist would not come out alive from. People simply disappear in those. They should be ****ing grateful they have it to easy in our poofish Guantanamo Bay which was praised for its excellent healthcare by........Michael Moore.

[NZFL]

Guantanamo, Auschwitz? Floating Prison Ships? All the same. The American Fascist State is emulating Hermann Goerings policies and through utilising such instruments are quite clearly in breech of every human right and so called freedom and liberty America supposedly stands for. Sounds great!

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by NZFL 

Guantanamo, Auschwitz? Floating Prison Ships? All the same. The American Fascist State is emulating Hermann Goerings policies and through utilising such instruments are quite clearly in breech of every human right and so called freedom and liberty America supposedly stands for. Sounds great!

You're talking out of your warped arse. You're a typical ungrateful lying liberal apologist who secretly hankers for a totalitarian regime that would make the Soviet Union or East Germany look like libertarian utopias.

My signature speaks of people exactly like you. The author's name in my signature says it all.

Faux-pacifists like you prevented Britain from rearming against Germany in the 1930s.

Comparing a simple island prison like Guantanamo to a massive death camp like Auschwitz belittles the Holocaust and the crimes of the Nazis.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

What do you mean by "what the Republicans have done to this country" and "recent years serve as proof"? Any specific gripes?

I would start with the War on Terror. It's a joke. A very expensive joke that's not making us safer. While we squander millions on that pathetic initiative we have several million American children going without healthcare -- preventative maintenance that would be cheaper than fixing health woes after the fact.

The 'war on terror' has also stolen several of our liberties -- privacy among them. We've traded our rights for a pile of dung. One could argue that domestic spying began under Bill Clinton, which is true. But, when the Republicans had complete control of Congress and the White House, they took it to a new level.

Justice. Remember that concept? Well, it's dead. I would begin by referencing that joke of an election decided by a partisan faction of the Supreme Court that behaved like drunken school children. Even Sandra Day O'Connor has expressed regret for the court's actions.

The list goes on ...

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

Surely you have some core belief structure that is more similar to one side than another, right?

I am conservative, and the only viable way to promote conservativism is via the Republican Party. I have no problems holding them to account, but in reality that's the only tent within which my ideas can compete.

I reject this line of reasoning -- we DO NOT need the two current parties to advance our goals. And no, my thinking does not align better with one party than the other. I dislike them both yet recognize that they each have some positives. At the end of the day I think we need to start over because this government no longer serves the people, it serves corporate interests first and, if we're lucky, it gets around to the people about the time the money runs out. This country is in really bad shape and Washington isn't living up to the responsibilities set forth.