Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > This broke my heart

This broke my heart (Page 2)
Thread Tools
olePigeon
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Maflynn View Post
Your right,

Cat is the other white meat
Tabbies are an odd mixture of tastes.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
Sayf-Allah
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2006
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
There's already a ban on people eating dogs in Korea...
Doh!

Ah well.. this just sounds to familiar for me to take seriously. This is a common tactic of some groups that.... let's just say I don't like.

But I stand by what I said (or rather didn't say) before. If he witnessed such things or heard about such things and didn't report it... well you know.

"Learn to swim"
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 07:23 PM
 
Whether you can feel pain or not has no relationship to your intelligence as a species, but whether you have a nervous system.

The bottom line is that after humans we favor species that remind us or have similarities with us. Dogs and wolves share many human characteristics, as do monkeys, dolphins, etc. I think favoring our own is common among all mammals.

That you choose to favor a dog over a cow has no biological explanation - all of the half baked theories about pain and sophistication are weak arguments. We favor dogs over cows due to our emotions and perhaps natural survival instincts that have us favor our own species and those with some relation to our species. However, the latter doesn't really have any logical rationalization any more, it's pretty much a vestige of the past. While we survive best in wolf-like communities, we aren't at all dependent on dogs or other domesticated animals for survival. A cow is really just as valuable to us as a dog, from a rational standpoint.

What it really boils down to are our own emotions. We don't like to kill dogs rather than cows or chickens because that will make us sad or upset.

That's how I see it.
     
RAILhead
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 08:00 PM
 
I would MUCH rather have a cow mooing in my backyard, than a dog barking.

And yes, you can quote me on that.
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 08:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
On this point I am totally biased. Dogs are special animals. Our relationship with them is unique and should be honored.
I'm afraid I have to agree wholeheartedly. I read your story and it makes me want to shake the owners by the neck. Generally, I'm not a big "animal rights" sort of person. While I don't think any animal should be abused, I eat more meat than two men should in a week. I gotta tell ya though, when it comes to dogs I get all PETA inside. I'm not proud of this, but dogs for whatever reason are a HUGE weakness for me personally. I know it's not consistent logically, but I'm just sayin'. I've long-thought about dropping everything and caring for these little guys in my State, but my donations and care of my own strays will have to suffice for now.

That little commercial with Sarah Sarah McLachlan tugs at my heart like you wouldn't believe. Probably no consolation to you, but there are some deplorable living conditions for Pit Bulls bred for fighting here in the US too. While you're up against some pretty deep-seeded cultural practice here, it seems folks in S. Korea are starting to expose it for what it is. Use your passion from these stories and the images you have in your mind and be a strong voice of opposition to this archaic abuse of dogs Homo Loquens! I'm with you brother!!!
ebuddy
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 08:33 PM
 
My advice if you want your opposition to be strong: make sure your rational case is at least as strong as your emotional one. One major problem I have with groups like PETA and abortion groups and such is that most of their cases seem purely emotional to me.
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
My advice if you want your opposition to be strong: make sure your rational case is at least as strong as your emotional one. One major problem I have with groups like PETA and abortion groups and such is that most of their cases seem purely emotional to me.
In this case you'll not have to try too hard IMO. More exposure and more people giving it more exposure is all it needs to be ended. While I generally abhor abortion, there are reasoned arguments for it that divide those otherwise equally opposed to it. In the case of beating animals to make them tastier, there simply is no sufficient evidence to gain majority public support. It's just one of those things that happens in the backwoods somewhere and it's someone else's battle. By bringing it to the fore, it'll go away. It's just a matter of exposure and time.

In the scheme of protecting animals, dogs are low-hanging fruit. You can move to protecting chickens, cows, and pigs from unnecessary abuse later on. Can't change the world in a day. Gotta start somewhere. May as well start with dogs and get a win under your belt.
ebuddy
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 10:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
In this case you'll not have to try too hard IMO. More exposure and more people giving it more exposure is all it needs to be ended. While I generally abhor abortion, there are reasoned arguments for it that divide those otherwise equally opposed to it. In the case of beating animals to make them tastier, there simply is no sufficient evidence to gain majority public support. It's just one of those things that happens in the backwoods somewhere and it's someone else's battle. By bringing it to the fore, it'll go away. It's just a matter of exposure and time.

In the scheme of protecting animals, dogs are low-hanging fruit. You can move to protecting chickens, cows, and pigs from unnecessary abuse later on. Can't change the world in a day. Gotta start somewhere. May as well start with dogs and get a win under your belt.

I agree that dogs are low-hanging fruit, but then again if we can't people to care a whole lot about how the animals they eat are raised here in the country, what makes people feel like they can make inroads in preventing this from happening in other countries?

I think the problem is that people, including myself, would prefer to live in a state of blissful ignorance than to really know how the animals we eat have been treated. I don't mean this as a high horse sort of statement either, because I deal with this myself as a meat eater. It is more comforting to think that maybe that meat we eat didn't come from a brutal factory farm, and if somebody tries to tell us otherwise, it is easier to think of this person as being manipulative and not really knowing for certain that what they are asserting is true. We are too far removed from the food preparation process.

I think the same applies to this sort of debate. We do not know how animals are treated in kennels, by certain owners, pet stores, animal shelters, whatever... Most of us are too far removed from these environments, or think (rightfully) that they aren't all equal in their practices. I would bet that if you were led to believe that a dog was abused throughout its life, this would be even more troubling than a dog that was treated well, and then one day humanely slaughtered and eaten. The problem here isn't necessarily the eating part of it, although that's a part of it, it's a respect and regard for the value of the life of the animal. This is the fundamental problem, and it doesn't matter what kind of animal or what environment the animal is raised in, really. If you think that you hold dominion over these animals and that entitles you to no real restrictions or boundaries as to how you exercise your power, we can argue about all of these food related issues and not really get at the root problem.

Really, I think what is upsetting the original poster is that eating the dog is somehow symbolic of the respect (or lack thereof) of the animal. We've made some concessions with "eating" animals such as cows and chickens, but I think that really the root problem is the same.

If you *really* want to get into this, we'd need to talk about the definition of life, whether a quality life is as important as having as long a life as possible, and whether there is a fundamental difference between animal life and human life. I'm sure we could also throw Christian and other religious dogma into the mix too...
     
Tiresias  (op)
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Korea
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 11:32 PM
 
So far I have noticed a basic failure to recognize the difference between mistreatment and torture. Torture is a special case of mistreatment, but there's a very important difference that hasn't sunk in yet with many of you.

When you torture an animal, your aim is to hurt it as much as you can. Clipping chickens' beaks is different from torture. You disregard the animals suffering for some other purpose, like preventing them from pecking each other, or whatever the reason is. But the practice is not specifically designed to inflict a maximal amount of pain. The pain is incidental, and the same is true of every other form of mistreatment that has been mentioned so far.

Dogs in South Korea are tortured with a kind of gruesome creativity; each dog in a variety of ways; slowly; horribly. The intensity of pain and suffering they undergo is therefore a world away from what results from even the worst kind of neglect. Do you really dispute that?

And to everyone who has suggested I do something, I will. I will look into it, and add my voice to whatever organizations are trying to oppose the practice. Of course I will do what I can.
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 11:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I agree that dogs are low-hanging fruit, but then again if we can't people to care a whole lot about how the animals they eat are raised here in the country, what makes people feel like they can make inroads in preventing this from happening in other countries?
In this situation our poster is in S. Korea and disgusted by practices there. IMO, things like this should always start at the grass roots level. In other words, I probably won't get far by starting off at the national level, but by garnering as much support as I can in my own neighborhood, county, then my State, region, etc... I might be able to make a real, measurable difference.

I think the problem is that people, including myself, would prefer to live in a state of blissful ignorance than to really know how the animals we eat have been treated. I don't mean this as a high horse sort of statement either, because I deal with this myself as a meat eater. It is more comforting to think that maybe that meat we eat didn't come from a brutal factory farm, and if somebody tries to tell us otherwise, it is easier to think of this person as being manipulative and not really knowing for certain that what they are asserting is true. We are too far removed from the food preparation process.
I'm inclined to agree with this and I think it's important to hear what others are saying about brutal factory farms. If in fact you learn that the chicken you're eating did come from a brutal factory farm, you can try to choose otherwise. I still say start with dogs though or at least think of discouraging the abuse at the local level, but our poster's situation is entirely different. There is no appreciable gain from "torturing" animals in the US. There is no notion that by doing so you are producing a better meat superstitious or otherwise. Generally speaking of course, veal notwithstanding. In other words, it seems to me more difficult and inefficient to abuse animals before processing them than to just process them. This isn't to suggest that our processing methods are humane, but I'd argue they are more humane than what our poster is suggesting.

I think the same applies to this sort of debate. We do not know how animals are treated in kennels, by certain owners, pet stores, animal shelters, whatever... Most of us are too far removed from these environments, or think (rightfully) that they aren't all equal in their practices.
This is a good point and of course there are horror stories of human abuse in retirement homes, hospice centers, and mental health centers. Someone with passion has to take up that fight, expose it for what it is, and bring an end to it.

I would bet that if you were led to believe that a dog was abused throughout its life, this would be even more troubling than a dog that was treated well, and then one day humanely slaughtered and eaten. The problem here isn't necessarily the eating part of it, although that's a part of it, it's a respect and regard for the value of the life of the animal. This is the fundamental problem, and it doesn't matter what kind of animal or what environment the animal is raised in, really. If you think that you hold dominion over these animals and that entitles you to no real restrictions or boundaries as to how you exercise your power, we can argue about all of these food related issues and not really get at the root problem.
I believe we have dominion over animals for a host of reasons including, but not limited to the doctrine of my faith. IMO, our dominion over them is also apparent logically. I would personally reject the notion that we have no restrictions on this relationship however. For example, I don't think a lion chasing down and eating a gazelle is showing any disrespect for the life of the animal. I think it is simply the way of things. The gazelle is sustenance. A lion will not generally knock a gazelle about for fun, but if possible, will go straight at the throat for an efficient kill. A respectable hunter will go only at the kill shot and will not relent until he's found his game. He will not shoot at a game bird while perched, generally respects his surroundings, serves wildlife a great deal in some respects with regard to keeping deer population down etc... While unsightly at times, there are beautiful aspects of the relationship as long as there is a modicum of respect for the way of things.

Really, I think what is upsetting the original poster is that eating the dog is somehow symbolic of the respect (or lack thereof) of the animal. We've made some concessions with "eating" animals such as cows and chickens, but I think that really the root problem is the same.
It might surprise you to know that my problem isn't as much eating the animal. I can't necessarily argue with the choice of delicacy in other cultures. Some regard cows as sacred and while starving to death have no idea how beneficial that walking steak might be for them, or other cultures that eat horse, etc... This wouldn't really be my battle as much as the seemingly unnecessary abuse of the animal. I'm not happy with it at all for calves penned up in cages that do not allow movement, or chickens with beaks cut short to avoid pecking other chickens or any of it. I agree with you that situations like these might be more pervasive than we realize and yet... I happily eat a chicken fajita or a good steak. I'd prefer we avoid eating dogs, but I don't feel I have the right to tell someone else they can't eat that dog, while I eat a pig. (an equally loyal pet by all accounts I've read) The abuse on the other hand and particularly a dog just gets to me personally. Besides, if men in S. Korea believe that abusing dogs produces a better meat, logic suggests they're equally cruel to other forms of meat. I say start with something that will more likely horrify people (dogs) and go from there if that's your battle. My battle (not unlike our poster's) would be more focused on dogs.

If you *really* want to get into this, we'd need to talk about the definition of life, whether a quality life is as important as having as long a life as possible, and whether there is a fundamental difference between animal life and human life. I'm sure we could also throw Christian and other religious dogma into the mix too...
I'd like to know that no abuse is occurring. I'd favor a quality life for the food then BANG! dead. While I'd rather we not eat dogs at all, I can't make that call for another culture. I think most people would be repulsed by abuse in any form on any animal and as for me personally, I'd start with the dog.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 11:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
So far I have noticed a basic failure to recognize the difference between mistreatment and torture. Torture is a special case of mistreatment, but there's a very important difference that hasn't sunk in yet with many of you.
You may be out looking for an argument.

I just got done giving you kudos and support for your passion. You're not going to win 'em all over my friend.
ebuddy
     
RAILhead
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 11:57 PM
 
This thread is torture.


ZING!!11!
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 11:57 PM
 
It broke my heart.
     
Tiresias  (op)
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Korea
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 9, 2008, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
You may be out looking for an argument.

I just got done giving you kudos and support for your passion. You're not going to win 'em all over my friend.
I'm not looking for an argument. I just don't understand how anyone could say clipping chickens' beaks or battery-farming pigs is the same thing as what I am describing: pouring boiling water on a dog, stringing it up over a fire, and then beating it to death. There's no comparison between torture and neglect, but the comparison is being made again and again.

Nor do I really understand what the point of the comparison is. Two wrongs don't make discussing one of those wrongs invalid. Suppose I start a thread about my friend being mugged at knife-point in a London street. Is it a valid objection to say, "Come on now, there's a lot of shoplifting in America" ?

But there have also been a lot of reasonable and compassionate responses, including yours ebuddy.

Like I said, when horrible things happen, it is human to want to talk about it. That's all this thread was about. I'm not trying to say Korean are evil or that Westerner's are the Patrons Saints of Animal Rights. I just heard a horrible story that I felt was poignant and meaningful and said so much about the men and the dog and I wanted to share it, my outrage, and raise awareness about the issue in my little way.
     
Tiresias  (op)
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Korea
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 12:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
This thread is torture.


ZING!!11!
I don't really mind that you view threads—any thread at all—as a place to practice your little one-liners. I only wish they were funny from time to time.
     
brassplayersrock²
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 12:20 AM
 
he was obviously joking. no need to go nuclear.
     
Cold Warrior
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Polwaristan
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 12:20 AM
 
It wasn't nuclear.

This thread is doing just fine.
     
Tiresias  (op)
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Korea
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 12:21 AM
 
Yes, I know he was joking. That's my point.

RAILheads jokes are no laughing matter. And neither is dog torture.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 12:34 AM
 
Homo: I think there might be some talking past each other going on here. I don't think that anybody is happy about torturing dogs. Torturing is wrong, and shouldn't be happening. I think where the debate is is over whether eating dogs in general (humanely killed) is wrong any more than eating another animal is wrong.
     
brassplayersrock²
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 12:38 AM
 
dog has meat. if it's the only thing that can provide meat in some areas, why not eat it?
case in point:
group of people crash land on top of a mountain. it's freezing and they need food to survive. they eat the meat of their dead to survive.

what's more wrong? trying to survive on what you have, or you dying, and not trying to survive?
     
- - e r i k - -
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 12:57 AM
 


It was going that way anyway…

[ fb ] [ flickr ] [] [scl] [ last ] [ plaxo ]
     
Face Ache
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 01:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
So far I have noticed a basic failure to recognize the difference between mistreatment and torture.
I've noticed a basic failure to recognize the difference between torture and tenderizing.

As a dog lover (not a fighter) I would never eat Kentucky Fried Chihuahua. Or Rhinoceros penis. Is there a Rhinoceros penis thread around here somewhere? Anyway... at the same time I'm not going to get all bent out of shape about a few dogs. My poochie was attacked in the park by some mongrel last week and I tenderized the crap outta that dog, I gotta tell ya.

My suggestion is to change your online name to Lassie and thrash those Koreans thoroughly at Starcraft. That'll teach 'em.
     
Captain Obvious
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 01:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
but this is quite different, because .... the animal is a dog.
ha ha ha ha ha

Barack Obama: Four more years of the Carter Presidency
     
brassplayersrock²
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: California
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 01:12 AM
 
lmao
(face ache post)
     
Tiresias  (op)
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: South Korea
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 01:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
My suggestion is to change your online name to Lassie and thrash those Koreans thoroughly at Starcraft. That'll teach 'em.
LOL.

The problem is, they're really, really good at it.
     
RAILhead
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 08:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
I don't really mind that you view threads—any thread at all—as a place to practice your little one-liners. I only wish they were funny from time to time.
This breaks my heart.
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 09:55 AM
 
Nothing beats having your beliefs mocked!
     
- - e r i k - -
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 09:56 AM
 
Isn't that what MacNN is all about?

[ fb ] [ flickr ] [] [scl] [ last ] [ plaxo ]
     
MacGallant
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 11:41 AM
 
I read the first post for this thread and I'm heart broken. . .

I love my dog and I worry and the mortality of my dog. . .

I'm scared of the day my dog will pass away and I wish my
dog is immortal or at least have a lifespan of a human. . .

To me, my dog is like a family member and she can never be replaced. . .

Dogs need to be loved and should never be treated badly or abused, they're man's best friend and humans should return the love and be dog's best friend for once. . .
PowerMacG4 MDD Dual867Mhz, MacOSX 10.5.5 Leopard
2GB Ram, 128mb Radeon 9800 Pro, 80GB HD & 160GB HD
MacBook Black: Core2Duo 2.2Ghz, MacOSX 10.5.5 Leopard
4GB Ram & 250GB HD
     
RAILhead
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 11:55 AM
 
My heart -- it is being touched like never before, right here, right in this thread.
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
olePigeon
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Dec 10, 2008, 02:41 PM
 
"We have something special. They're special. I've touched your kids in a very special place, and they've touched me. ... no, wait. That's not how it sounds!"
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:16 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,