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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Livni: "'your national solution lies elsewhere."

Livni: "'your national solution lies elsewhere."
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Sayf-Allah
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Dec 13, 2008, 07:24 AM
 
So....

We have members of MacNN that propose ethnic cleansing. That's something you can expect with this being an anonymous forum where people can say what they want.

But when a likely PM and current FM of a nation tells 20% (≈1.4million) of the population that they don't belong there and that their "'national solution lies elsewhere" you surely have to react? When 20% of a population are told they'll be 2nd class citizens (legally) after being treated as untermenschen for 60 years you surely have to react?

But what are the odds that any Western countries will react? Next to zero. Unbelievable.

Would they react the same if a country said to their Jewish citizens that their "national solution lies elsewhere"? Would they ****!



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779087.stm

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vmarks
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Dec 13, 2008, 10:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
So....

We have members of MacNN that propose ethnic cleansing. That's something you can expect with this being an anonymous forum where people can say what they want.
statement without evidence. All we really have is you in past user names threatening other macnn members.

But when a likely PM and current FM of a nation tells 20% (≈1.4million) of the population that they don't belong there and that their "'national solution lies elsewhere" you surely have to react? When 20% of a population are told they'll be 2nd class citizens (legally) after being treated as untermenschen for 60 years you surely have to react?

But what are the odds that any Western countries will react? Next to zero. Unbelievable.
I don't believe that Livni told the Israeli Arabs that they belong elsewhere. She told the people who refuse to be Israelis, calling themselves Palestinians, and insist on attacking Israel, that they will not be able to solve their problems by taking over or eliminating Israel.

We're relying on the BBC's source of the translation. I have no great confidence that they've got it correct, especially since the BBC's position is that Israel or the presence of Jews are the root of all conflict.
Would they react the same if a country said to their Jewish citizens that their "national solution lies elsewhere"? Would they ****!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7779087.stm
What a short memory you have. How did Zionism, which is the proposition that there ought to be a safe haven for Jews in the world, begin? By nations making it clear that a nation which would provide haven for Jews wasn't in Europe, Russia, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Egypt or the US, but instead lay elsewhere.

But don't you worry. I don't believe Livni will be PM. The BBC wants her to be PM, because she's the alternative they favor. Livni wants to be PM because she thinks she's Golda Meir, the grandmother who can gently lead a nation. She's not. She lacks the principles and strength of Golda Meir.

No, you won't see Livni as PM. You'll be far more disappointed.
( Last edited by vmarks; Dec 13, 2008 at 10:57 AM. )
     
Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 13, 2008, 10:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
statement without evidence. All we really have is you in past user names threatening other macnn members.
Threatening other macnn members? Wouldn't it be more prudent if you as a mod would actually back up your statements?

So... I won't get an infraction for pointing you to the macnn member that proposes ethnic cleansing?
I don't believe that Livni told the Israeli Arabs that they belong elsewhere. She told the people who refuse to be Israelis, calling themselves Palestinians, and insist on attacking Israel, that they will not be able to solve their problems by taking over or eliminating Israel.
Really?

" "And among other things, I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere.'" "

from j-post.

So, how are you going to spin this?
What a short memory you have. How did Zionism, which is the proposition that there ought to be a safe haven for Jews in the world, begin? By nations making it clear that a nation which would provide haven for Jews wasn't in Europe, Russia, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Egypt or the US, but instead lay elsewhere.
Yadayadablahblahblah... a lot of words but you don't answer the question. As usual.

How would you react if Hussein said ""And among other things, I will also be able to approach the Jewish(race) residents of the USA, those whom we call Jewish Americans, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere.'"

If you'd answer truthfully I'm absolutely sure what your response would be. But since you won't I eagerly await the next spin and attempt at derail.

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vmarks
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Dec 13, 2008, 11:19 AM
 

Fancy veiled threat you made there.

Evidence. You've threatened users in these forums.

How would you react if Hussein said ""And among other things, I will also be able to approach the Jewish(race) residents of the USA, those whom we call Jewish Americans, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere.'"
You're making a mistake. Livni is saying that Israel is not going to become Palestine, no matter how much you may wish it were so (and you've said so many times here in these forums.) Livni is not proposing anything else.

And, it won't matter in any event, as Livni will not be PM.

Hussein who? Why speak in hypotheticals, when we know what has already happened countless times?

What we know is that all the nations I named made it clear to Jews that there was no home for them in the nations there. Whether it's as late as the Dreyfus Affair in France, 1890s, or as early as the Spanish Inquisition, or the etymology of the word 'ghetto' which originally described the areas in an Italian city where the Jews were allowed to live, or when the US refused to admit refugees fleeing Europe, sending them back to their deaths, or when Russia's cossacks terrorized Jews, or the Soviet Union made a practice of imprisoning Jews who dared to be Jewish in Siberia, or when Iraq, Iran, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan's Jewish communities all but disappeared, giving up all their worldly possessions to become refugees in tent cities in the only country that would take them - It could have been any of these occasions when the nations told the Jews that their home lay elsewhere.
     
lil'babykitten
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Dec 13, 2008, 12:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
You're making a mistake. Livni is saying that Israel is not going to become Palestine, no matter how much you may wish it were so (and you've said so many times here in these forums.) Livni is not proposing anything else.
Are you being intentionally obtuse or have you started to lose it over the last few years? Livni's statement was clearly in reference to Israel's Arab citizens and not about supposed Palestinian aspirations or the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Whether she becomes PM or not, for any serious candidate to even suggest such a thing says a lot about Israel's supposed democratic values. Then again, she is running against a notorious thug with an even worse history so I suppose it's all relative.
     
Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 13, 2008, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post

Fancy veiled threat you made there.

Evidence. You've threatened users in these forums.
What's the threat? And why not provide the link with it? So people can see the context.

(and I've explained the last one to you several times. But whatever you think will get me irritated enough to get banned will do won't it?)
You're making a mistake. Livni is saying that Israel is not going to become Palestine, no matter how much you may wish it were so (and you've said so many times here in these forums.) Livni is not proposing anything else.
1. When did I say so?
2. And you didn't disappoint.

Again, it is pretty clear what she is talking about. I'll post it again so you can make another attempt:

"And among other things, I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere.'"
Hussein who? Why speak in hypotheticals, when we know what has already happened countless times?
The president of the USA. Will you answer the question? Or go on to another tirade straight from the Book of Zionist excuses for dummies?

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Wiskedjak
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Dec 13, 2008, 05:05 PM
 
vmarks, your defense of this statement sounds like exactly what you accuse those who defend the "erase Israel from the map" statement of.
     
Chuckit
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Dec 13, 2008, 05:55 PM
 
I was once ethnically cleansed when the guy who owned the place I was staying decided to sell it.
Chuck
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Uncle Skeleton
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Dec 13, 2008, 07:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Hussein who?
The president of the USA.
Holy ****, are you serious? His name is Hussein!?!?

This thread is obviously a parody, if not this whole user account. No one is this lame in real life.
     
Big Mac
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Dec 13, 2008, 10:34 PM
 
Perhaps Livni has some sense after all. We shall see. Thank you for bringing me this potentially good news, Sayf.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Dec 14, 2008 at 01:51 AM. )

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ebuddy
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Dec 13, 2008, 10:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
"And among other things, I will also be able to approach the Palestinian residents of Israel, those whom we call Israeli Arabs, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere."

How would you react if Hussein said ""And among other things, I will also be able to approach the Jewish(race) residents of the USA, those whom we call Jewish Americans, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere.'"
What "national solution" would Jewish residents of the USA be seeking? If they were seeking nationhood in New Jersey for example, I might at least suggest they seek their "solution" in a larger state. I'm just sayin'. It seems peaceful coexistence is next to impossible in such a congested region of ideological differences.
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ebuddy
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Dec 13, 2008, 10:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I was once ethnically cleansed when the guy who owned the place I was staying decided to sell it.
ebuddy
     
red rocket
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Dec 14, 2008, 07:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah
But what are the odds that any Western countries will react? Next to zero. Unbelievable.
Politicians are idiots and liars, I have ceased expecting them to act in a civilised, intelligent, honest, or even simply humane, way.
     
Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 14, 2008, 04:50 PM
 
Just a quick addition to defend myself in public (once again) from vmarks attack on me.

1. The quote in it's context from March 2006:

And btw Big Mac. When someone criticises Islam I have no problem with him. But that has yet to be donein this thread. So far it's the same old attack on Muslims for what one person says. It's the same old with a moderator supporting those blatant attacks on Muslims. It's the same old hatred that you have in your hearts towards Muslims. Your nation hasn't evolved one bit since the days of slavery. And neither has the majority of your people.

And you can continue to try to say all those who are against Israel are anti-Semites. It just shows yet again that you will lie and cheat to get what you want. Just like you have done before and just like you will do again. I've got no problem with Jews. I've got a problem with Israel the "state" and the supporters of that "state". Just like I have a problem with all racist little pigs and all occupying little pigs. You will all get what you deserve in the end and I can't wait for it to happen.

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...e/#post2900837
And later in the original thread:

Originally Posted by vmarks
I'm interested in the notion that you get to decide when we can or cannot have a civil discussion, after you've just said:
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
You will all get what you deserve in the end and I can't wait for it to happen.
(my reply)
Do you believe God will reward us or punish us depending on what we deserve in the end?
So.... would this classify as harassment? Personal attack?

(I'll post this here and in the feedback forum. Wouldn't be needed if vmarks would actually act as a moderator)

ps. "your nation" is as I point out later in the thread meaning America. Just to prevent vmarks from taking that out of context as well. But maybe he'll just take that part of and post it in two years....

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vmarks
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Dec 14, 2008, 05:23 PM
 
Holding you accountable for your words isn't a personal attack, is it? Weren't you the one who used the words "racist little pigs" ?

Get back on topic. Please don't cross-post between the forums.

As for your comment about "Hussein", I have never used any name other than "Mr. Obama" to describe the President-elect. Use the search function, you'll see. Hussein is a very common last name, which is why I had no idea to whom you were referring in your bizarre hypothetical.
     
macintologist
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Dec 14, 2008, 06:31 PM
 
Too much drama in this thread
     
lil'babykitten
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Dec 15, 2008, 05:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Perhaps Livni has some sense after all. We shall see. Thank you for bringing me this potentially good news, Sayf.
Well, at least your racism is clear for all to see.

Would vmarks like to respond to the thread topic rather than de-railing it?
     
Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 15, 2008, 06:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
As for your comment about "Hussein", I have never used any name other than "Mr. Obama" to describe the President-elect. Use the search function, you'll see. Hussein is a very common last name, which is why I had no idea to whom you were referring in your bizarre hypothetical.
I quite frankly don't care what you call him. I call him Hussein.

1. Why is it so bizarre?

2. And what's the difference between the two?

And please try to stay on topic.

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ebuddy
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Dec 15, 2008, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by lil'babykitten View Post
Well, at least your racism is clear for all to see.

Would vmarks like to respond to the thread topic rather than de-railing it?
vmarks may have noticed that it does little good to address the actual thread topic evidenced by me having been ignored. What "national solution" makes sense in a region the size of New Jersey?

In addition, I'm not sure how one is supposed to regard a statement like the aforementioned by one with Sayf's signature; who claimed only "later in the original thread" that he was referring to God's punishment of those deserving it. Is it possible that some among men will carry God's sword for Him? It was a threat, plain and simple not unlike "learn to swim". Your auto-sig by definition is part of your identity in this forum. When Sayf first began using this auto-sig I told him how I felt about it as well as others. He knows his posts are taken in context of the posture he's provided from that identity. He's fully aware of this threatening posture and he likes it. Why would we act surprised by the reactions we've been feeding? The whole thing is silly IMO.

*Back on topic; Do you believe Palestinians and Israelis can peacefully coexist in Israel?
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Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 15, 2008, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
What "national solution" would Jewish residents of the USA be seeking? If they were seeking nationhood in New Jersey for example, I might at least suggest they seek their "solution" in a larger state. I'm just sayin'. It seems peaceful coexistence is next to impossible in such a congested region of ideological differences.
Why don't you ask the same question in regards to the Israeli Arabs?

Or have you already decided what they want? And in a democracy shouldn't the citizens have a say in the future of the nation? Or does that only apply for a select few?

Again, how would you react if Hussein would say "And among other things, I will also be able to approach the Jewish(race) residents of the USA, those whom we call Jewish Americans, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere."

Why do you guys skirt around this question? Too uncomfortable?

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Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 15, 2008, 08:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
vmarks may have noticed that it does little good to address the actual thread topic evidenced by me having been ignored.
Is that why he started the derail before you posted? He reads minds?
*Back on topic; Do you believe Palestinians and Israelis can peacefully coexist in Israel?
Yes.

But most importantly I believe citizens of a country should be equal before the law. Be treated equally by their representatives.

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lil'babykitten
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Dec 15, 2008, 08:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
*Back on topic; Do you believe Palestinians and Israelis can peacefully coexist in Israel?
They already do to some extent. But both sides would feel a lot more comfortable if the situation in the Occupied Territories was agreeably resolved.

Statements like Livni's however, threaten the comparatively amicable relations between Palestinians and Israelis in Israel 'proper' though.
     
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Dec 15, 2008, 08:55 AM
 
yeesh, all y'all lay off vmarks. ruthless jerks
     
Chongo
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Dec 15, 2008, 01:01 PM
 
As has been pointed out many times, 80% of what was "Palestine" is now Jordan.
     
Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 15, 2008, 01:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
As has been pointed out many times, 80% of what was "Palestine" is now Jordan.
Completely irrelevant to the thread at hand but thanks for your input....

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ebuddy
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Dec 15, 2008, 09:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Why don't you ask the same question in regards to the Israeli Arabs?
Okay. To any Israeli Arabs on MacNN, what is it you want? Do you want Israelis to give up a part of the country over which they believe they have rights so that Israel will remain a Jewish and democratic state in which citizens have equal rights, whatever their religion with no question of carrying out a transfer or forcing Israeli Arabs to leave? (per Livni quote in your cited link)
If yes, excellent. You should be very pleased with the prospect of a Livni Administration.

Or have you already decided what they want?
I'm not qualified to decide what they want. They have to decide what they want. If like you, they express an interest in the Israeli's collective ability to swim, nothing Livni says could ever suffice.

In a democracy shouldn't the citizens have a say in the future of the nation? Or does that only apply for a select few?
If two children want 55% of a sandbox, which child shall I apportion the greater? Certainly, whenever possible all provisions of peace should be exhausted, often times up to and including concession. There are two-state proposals and it seems Livni is on board with this notion. What am I missing? What else do the Israeli-Arabs want? Why such focus on this territory the size of New Jersey when this Arab lineage is treated so much more poorly elsewhere? I personally want all parties involved to have peace and prosperity, but I'm not sure it can be done.

Again, how would you react if Hussein would say "And among other things, I will also be able to approach the Jewish(race) residents of the USA, those whom we call Jewish Americans, and tell them, 'your national solution lies elsewhere."
Tell me what the Jewish Americans' proposed "national solution" is? I'm willing to entertain even an absurd hypothetical with some clarification. Tell me what the Israeli-Arabs want, I can equate that to the hypothetical; then answer your question.

For example;
Using as fair a real-world example as I can find in context of your perspective, the largest Native American reservation in the U.S. is almost 4 times the amount of land allotted to Israelis. In fact, even the smallest Native American reservation is only 2,000 square miles smaller than the amount of land allotted the Israeli. It should be noted that Americans have generally been regarded as rather cruel for their treatment of the Native American. Using your logic, should we then consider Arabs to be exponentially more cruel in their treatment of the Israeli tribes?

Why do you guys skirt around this question? Too uncomfortable?
I'll be honest with you Sayf, I have absolutely no vested interest in this issue and I therefore have nothing to be uncomfortable with. Like I said, your hypothetical is simply too nebulous to address.
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Dec 15, 2008, 10:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by red rocket View Post
Politicians are idiots and liars, I have ceased expecting them to act in a civilised, intelligent, honest, or even simply humane, way.
So you are advocating ethnic cleansing of politicians?

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Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 16, 2008, 06:22 AM
 
Ebuddy:

You are confusing Palestinians (landless people with no citizenship currently living in what is called the Occupied territories) with Israeli Arabs (citizens of Israel who live and work within what is generally accepted as being Israel).

(and if you aren't there no need to discuss this because your POV is sooooo far on the other side that we will just start talking in circles)

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red rocket
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Dec 16, 2008, 07:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -
So you are advocating ethnic cleansing of politicians?
Well, as they say, mankind won’t be free until the last king has been strangled with the entrails of the last priest, and politicians being the modern-day equivalent of kings and priests, sure, why not?
     
ebuddy
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Dec 16, 2008, 08:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Ebuddy:

You are confusing Palestinians (landless people with no citizenship currently living in what is called the Occupied territories) with Israeli Arabs (citizens of Israel who live and work within what is generally accepted as being Israel).

(and if you aren't there no need to discuss this because your POV is sooooo far on the other side that we will just start talking in circles)
I'm open to correction for any misunderstanding, but are you absolutely sure you're not being deliberately vague? In other words, who are the Israeli Arabs???

Arab citizens of Israel refers to Arabs or Arabic-speaking people who are citizens of Israel who are not Jewish. Arab citizens of Israel are often called Arab Israelis or Israeli Arabs, a term with which some identify but the majority reject. (See notes on terminology below.)
Arab citizens comprise almost 20% of the population of Israel. The majority identify themselves as Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship. Many Arab citizens hold a range of ties, including family ties, to Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

wiki; Arab citizens of Israel

Why the necessary distinction and how is my POV soooo far to one side? Because it challenges your view?
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Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 16, 2008, 08:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm open to correction for any misunderstanding, but are you absolutely sure you're not being deliberately vague? In other words, who are the Israeli Arabs???

Arab citizens of Israel refers to Arabs or Arabic-speaking people who are citizens of Israel who are not Jewish. Arab citizens of Israel are often called Arab Israelis or Israeli Arabs, a term with which some identify but the majority reject. (See notes on terminology below.)
Arab citizens comprise almost 20% of the population of Israel. The majority identify themselves as Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship. Many Arab citizens hold a range of ties, including family ties, to Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

wiki; Arab citizens of Israel

Why the necessary distinction and how is my POV soooo far to one side? Because it challenges your view?
I highlighted it for you.

If you seriously believe that telling 20% (or 1.4 million citizens) that their "national solution lies elsewhere" is completely OK there is little to talk about. And it just so happens that those 20% don't fit into the Jewishness of the state. We aren't talking about Arab Jews. We are targetting non-Jews (especially Arabs).

We aren't talking about the Palestinians in the OT's. We are talking about Israeli citizens being told (in a PC way) to f*ck off or accept being second class citizens.

The fact that quite a few people support this view scares me. I'm not surprised someone like Big Mac supports it as he supports the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Gaza (his views on depopulating those two area of everything non-Jewish are quite well known) but when other people start thinking this is OK the world has quite clearly become a crazy place....

It would also scare me if a leader in any country told their Jewish citizens to f*ck off. Like my example if Hussein said the same thing in regards to the Jewish population in the USA.

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ebuddy
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Dec 16, 2008, 08:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
I highlighted it for you.
What did you highlight for me?

If you seriously believe that telling 20% (or 1.4 million citizens) that their "national solution lies elsewhere" is completely OK there is little to talk about. And it just so happens that those 20% don't fit into the Jewishness of the state. We aren't talking about Arab Jews. We are targetting non-Jews (especially Arabs).

We aren't talking about the Palestinians in the OT's. We are talking about Israeli citizens being told (in a PC way) to f*ck off or accept being second class citizens.
I don't see that anywhere. We're talking about a "national solution". In other words, this is quite clearly regarding nationhood right? Another entity cannot claim nationhood in a nation that is already established, hence your "national solution lies elsewhere". The US cannot be both Israel and the US as it likewise cannot be both Palestine and the US. It makes perfect sense. People like me accept this because the notion is actually quite practical.

The fact that quite a few people support this view scares me. I'm not surprised someone like Big Mac supports it as he supports the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Gaza (his views on depopulating those two area of everything non-Jewish are quite well known) but when other people start thinking this is OK the world has quite clearly become a crazy place....
Conversely, one who allows only for the possibility of nationhood at sea might insist on seeing all statements as adversarial and hostile. This perpetuates a fight where there is none. You have to want to be happy Sayf. No one can be happy for you. If your eyes are moving to and fro for something to be offended by, you will never be displeased at the injustices in the world.

It would also scare me if a leader in any country told their Jewish citizens to f*ck off. Like my example if Hussein said the same thing in regards to the Jewish population in the USA.
No one said this. What would you rather Livni say?
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Dec 16, 2008, 08:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Like my example if Hussein said the same thing in regards to the Jewish population in the USA.
Why are you calling the next president of the US Hussein? Even if Hussein is part of his first name, I don't think you are that close to him to call him with his first name alone, be it Barack or Hussein...

On topic: Livni thinks obviously that Netanjahu would win the election if she doesn't gain some respect among the rightwing-side of Israel, which is a sad state of doing campaigning and an outrageous one as well.

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Sayf-Allah  (op)
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Dec 16, 2008, 08:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Why are you calling the next president of the US Hussein? Even if Hussein is part of his first name, I don't think you are that close to him to call him with his first name alone, be it Barack or Hussein...
1. Icelanders call everyone by their first name. Our president is called Ólafur Ragnar. Our PM Geir (or Geir "fífl" ("idiot").
2. Rightwingers tried to use it against him before the election...
3. I think the USA should be proud of being able to vote a man with such a "foreign" name into office. There's unfortunately a long way to go before a European country will do the same.
On topic: Livni thinks obviously that Netanjahu would win the election if she doesn't gain some respect among the rightwing-side of Israel, which is a sad state of doing campaigning and an outrageous one as well.

Taliesin
Agreed.


ebuddy: I'll be back to you later today or tomorrow. Got to go now.

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Dec 16, 2008, 08:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
1. Icelanders call everyone by their first name. Our president is called Ólafur Ragnar. Our PM Geir (or Geir "fífl" ("idiot").
I see, but you have to take into consideration that in other parts of the world it is seen as being impolite if not close enough or explicitly permitted.

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Dec 16, 2008, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Another entity cannot claim nationhood in a nation that is already established, hence your "national solution lies elsewhere".
See Black September in Jordan

For what its worth, Israelis of Arab descent hold 10% of the seats in the Knesset.
     
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Dec 16, 2008, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
For what its worth, Israelis of Arab descent hold 10% of the seats in the Knesset.
Is that counting Jewish Arabs?

And 10% for 20% of the population isn't that great an achievement.

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Dec 17, 2008, 12:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Is that counting Jewish Arabs?

And 10% for 20% of the population isn't that great an achievement.
Jewish Arab=Dhimmi
     
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Dec 17, 2008, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Jewish Arab=Dhimmi
?

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Dec 17, 2008, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
What did you highlight for me?
That Livni is talking about Israeli citizens here. Not the stateless Palestinians.
I don't see that anywhere. We're talking about a "national solution". In other words, this is quite clearly regarding nationhood right? Another entity cannot claim nationhood in a nation that is already established, hence your "national solution lies elsewhere". The US cannot be both Israel and the US as it likewise cannot be both Palestine and the US. It makes perfect sense. People like me accept this because the notion is actually quite practical.
So you think it would be best to move all non-Jewish Arabs out of Israel? And telling them that if they don't move they will be treated as second class citizens?

Because that is what she is saying.
Conversely, one who allows only for the possibility of nationhood at sea might insist on seeing all statements as adversarial and hostile. This perpetuates a fight where there is none. You have to want to be happy Sayf. No one can be happy for you. If your eyes are moving to and fro for something to be offended by, you will never be displeased at the injustices in the world.
I'm quite happy with life.

And I don't know who you are talking about when you mention the "nationhood at sea". If you believe that is my opinion (based on my sig) you haven't listened to anything I've said in the several hundred threads about this issue in the past.
No one said this. What would you rather Livni say?
No, no-one in an as important position in the West (and in fact the world the last decades or so) said so. Because targeting a single ethnic group is considered barbaric by civilised nations. You don't even seem to be able to entertain the notion that this might happen to Jews in the US.

But this is happening to non-Jewish people in Israel. And for some reason when that happens people defend it. Which shows that we haven't come that far at all since WWII.

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Dec 18, 2008, 12:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
So you think it would be best to move all non-Jewish Arabs out of Israel?
As opposed to "Jewish Arabs"? What exactly would a "Jewish Arab" be? Is that a clumsy reference to Mizrachi Jews?
     
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Dec 18, 2008, 12:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
That Livni is talking about Israeli citizens here. Not the stateless Palestinians.
I still don't understand the necessary distinction.

So you think it would be best to move all non-Jewish Arabs out of Israel? And telling them that if they don't move they will be treated as second class citizens?

Because that is what she is saying.
Actually per your cited link which provides the quote, she said exactly the opposite, but I'm not sure it matters. All citizens have equal rights, whatever their religion with no question of carrying out a transfer or forcing Israeli Arabs to leave

And I don't know who you are talking about when you mention the "nationhood at sea". If you believe that is my opinion (based on my sig) you haven't listened to anything I've said in the several hundred threads about this issue in the past.
Why would you undermine otherwise sober rhetoric with militant hatred? You of course understand that this might cause confusion among your readers as to which of your views is sincere.

No, no-one in an as important position in the West (and in fact the world the last decades or so) said so. Because targeting a single ethnic group is considered barbaric by civilised nations. You don't even seem to be able to entertain the notion that this might happen to Jews in the US.
What would happen to Jews in the US?

But this is happening to non-Jewish people in Israel. And for some reason when that happens people defend it. Which shows that we haven't come that far at all since WWII.
I'm not so sure. As unfair as it might seem, I see a lot of eyes moving to and fro looking for something to be offended by as evidenced by your reaction to the Livni quote. She's talking about literally giving up a portion of territory so that a society may be built that is equal to all religious peoples with no question of transfer or removal and you've twisted it to inequality, transfers, and removals. You say that politicians in important positions have to speak against barbarism to appear fair, but you're going to regard their statement as barbaric anyway. I mean, they can't win for losing.
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Dec 18, 2008, 08:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm not so sure. As unfair as it might seem, I see a lot of eyes moving to and fro looking for something to be offended by as evidenced by your reaction to the Livni quote. She's talking about literally giving up a portion of territory so that a society may be built that is equal to all religious peoples with no question of transfer or removal and you've twisted it to inequality, transfers, and removals. You say that politicians in important positions have to speak against barbarism to appear fair, but you're going to regard their statement as barbaric anyway. I mean, they can't win for losing.
Have you read different quotes? From what I've read, Livni certainly doesn't suggest to build a society in which all people and religions are equal, as that would undermine Kadima's political will to secure that Israel remains a jewish state.

But in order for Israel to remain jewish in the future, there somehow must be a way to reduce the political influence of the islamic israelis. There are different ways to achieve that: a) the final solution, ie. extermination, massmurder, genocide, however you might call it, b) economic and other forms of oppression in order to reduce the birth-rate of muslims, for example by prohibitting new buildings or underfunding schools and infrastructure among israeli muslims... or.... c) to work towards a peace-deal with the palestinians and arabic neighbours that would include Israel giving up territory in agreement with international law and that would enable Israel to transfer the islamic israelis to the to be created palestinian state, once it's established.

a) is pretty much unrealistic considering the history and experience of jews with the holocaust, b) is what is already being practiced for decades, but which couldn't solve the problem although it slowed it down a little and c) is what Livni suggested openly with the quotes that are the topic of this thread.

The transfer wouldn't have to mean an actual relocation of the islamic israelis, it would just mean that the territory they live on would be given to the palestinian state, while other territory in the Westbank where the big israeli settlements are located would become officially part of Israel.

That's the basic idea of Livni and her party to secure Israel's jewishness for the future.

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Dec 18, 2008, 09:37 AM
 
@Talesin
You're right.
The muslim population is growing faster than the Jewish population. Israel's self-perception as a Jewish state is simply not compatible with a non-Jewish majority in the population.

This self-perception also hinders that non-Jewish Israelis identify themselves with the state of Israel, even if advantages are offered to Arab Israelis, for instance (I've heard that a fixed percentage of places at Technion is reserved for Arab students, even though, on average, their grades seem to be worse; heard this from a friend who spent a semester there).
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ebuddy
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Dec 18, 2008, 10:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Have you read different quotes? From what I've read, Livni certainly doesn't suggest to build a society in which all people and religions are equal, as that would undermine Kadima's political will to secure that Israel remains a jewish state.
Israel is a Jewish state. Are there those who seek to change that? Surely in a region so tiny, you can see where this would be difficult to accept. Are you saying Jews are treated as equals in other regions of the Middle East? If no, where shall they remain to enjoy the degree of freedom they have in Israel and why would they willingly adopt legislation that might jeopardize this lifestyle?

But in order for Israel to remain jewish in the future, there somehow must be a way to reduce the political influence of the islamic israelis. There are different ways to achieve that: a) the final solution, ie. extermination, massmurder, genocide, however you might call it, b) economic and other forms of oppression in order to reduce the birth-rate of muslims, for example by prohibitting new buildings or underfunding schools and infrastructure among israeli muslims... or.... c) to work towards a peace-deal with the palestinians and arabic neighbours that would include Israel giving up territory in agreement with international law and that would enable Israel to transfer the islamic israelis to the to be created palestinian state, once it's established.
It seems we agree that Option 'C' seems most likely in context of Livni's statement, but let's look at that for a moment. From Sayf's cited link;
"There is no question of carrying out a transfer or forcing them [Israeli Arabs] to leave,"
You have to want to be offended to take issue with this. She's quoted in Ha'eretz in April of this year as having said;
"whoever remains in Israel after that point can remain a member of a minority with equal rights."
There is no notion of "transfer" or "removal" here. Why is this a problem? Again, why would a Jewish State who historically cannot enjoy this degree of freedom elsewhere in the Middle East adopt legislation that would jeopardize their lifestyles? Is the problem merely Jewishness? Why would an Israeli-Arab be at odds with "Jewishness" and what other concessions can the leaders of this 8,500 square mile region make that would ensure happiness for all?

Is it at least conceivable to you that an eventual Jewish minority would be treated poorly? If yes, what then shall they do to ensure they're not committing national suicide? If no, we'll have to agree to disagree at this irreconcilable point.

The transfer wouldn't have to mean an actual relocation of the islamic israelis, it would just mean that the territory they live on would be given to the palestinian state, while other territory in the Westbank where the big israeli settlements are located would become officially part of Israel.
I agree that this seems to be the gist of Livni's sentiment, but why is this a problem? What else can be said or done to ensure peaceful conditions for all? There seems to be the need to separate "Palestinians" from "Israeli Arabs" when this really doesn't seem necessary or even accurate. The fact remains, if you're not growing, you're dying. I don't understand why this reality should be acknowledged only for Arabs in the region and not Jews.
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Dec 18, 2008, 11:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Israel is a Jewish state. Are there those who seek to change that?
Demographics can change that character with no intention of ill will or wrong doing of any kind from either side.
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Dec 18, 2008, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Demographics can change that character with no intention of ill will or wrong doing of any kind from either side.
Good point. Is it at least conceivable to you that an eventual Jewish minority would be treated poorly? If yes, what then shall they do to ensure they're not committing national suicide?
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Dec 18, 2008, 03:01 PM
 
I think we can all agree that a single-state solution in all of the territory west of the Jordan would not work, because demographics would one day dictate that this country would cease to have a Jewish majority, which is essential for retaining its Jewish character and purpose. No one seriously believes that a majority-Muslim/Christian state would have the best interests of its Jewish citizens at heart any more than they believe that Israel currently cares more for its Arab/Muslim/Christian neighbors that it does for its Jewish citizens. No hatred is necessary here to explain these priorities. Everybody looks out for their own in this neighborhood.

So the difficult and thorny question has to be, "What will the final borders of the Jewish state (Israel) be that will be permanently recognized in the Arab/Muslim world?" You can snicker and say "one that doesn't exist," but really, I do see signs that at very least the Arab/Muslim governments appear one day to be ready for some kind of settlement.
     
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Dec 18, 2008, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Good point. Is it at least conceivable to you that an eventual Jewish minority would be treated poorly? If yes, what then shall they do to ensure they're not committing national suicide?
If they don't do anything to make non-Jewish citizens identify themselves, then I don't think they will be treated well. But on the other hand, if this turns out to be a matter of demographics, there is nothing Jewish Israelis can do (other than have more children). After all, you cannot force people to have less or more children, that's their personal choice.

So there is nothing they can do, but integrate themselves better within the region (inside and outside).
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Dec 18, 2008, 09:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
If they don't do anything to make non-Jewish citizens identify themselves, then I don't think they will be treated well. But on the other hand, if this turns out to be a matter of demographics, there is nothing Jewish Israelis can do (other than have more children). After all, you cannot force people to have less or more children, that's their personal choice.

So there is nothing they can do, but integrate themselves better within the region (inside and outside).
I don't think a birth-race is a good enough solution for all parties involved. Only time will tell, but I think you'll find that the only solution to this issue is a two-state solution. Demographics aside, there is absolutely nowhere else in the Middle East for the Jew to enjoy the kind of freedom they have in Israel. This is not the case for Arabs as there are a wealth of options available to them. If you'll argue that Arabs in Israel also cannot enjoy this freedom elsewhere, you'll have to ask yourself who owns the source of the struggle.
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