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Monique
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Jan 5, 2009, 02:01 PM
 
Israel has the right to defend itself no matter what.
     
design219
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Jan 5, 2009, 02:18 PM
 
Does that go for everyone else?
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GSixZero
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Jan 5, 2009, 02:20 PM
 
Now that everyone knows that, we should have peace in the middle east by what, lunch time?

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osiris
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Jan 5, 2009, 02:30 PM
 
Today's lunchtime? I mean, I'm already half through mine. But that should be enough, right?
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
sek929
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Jan 5, 2009, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by design219 View Post
Does that go for everyone else?
Israel is in such a unique situation I doubt any other country can be compared to it.

I also think they have every right to attack anyone who screws with them, we in the USA have no idea what it's like to be a tiny country surrounded by hatred.
     
ebuddy
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Jan 5, 2009, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Israel is in such a unique situation I doubt any other country can be compared to it.

I also think they have every right to attack anyone who screws with them, we in the USA have no idea what it's like to be a tiny country surrounded by hatred.
Agreed. I might add that they are not acting preemptively, this is a direct response for unrelenting rocket fire deeper and deeper into their cities.
ebuddy
     
besson3c
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Jan 5, 2009, 07:50 PM
 
As much as I tend to agree, we (Americans) really ought to stop supporting Israel. Let his war play out, nothing good is going to come from our intervention.
     
sek929
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Jan 5, 2009, 07:54 PM
 
I doubt Israel even needs our support, if nothing else I think our involvement keeps them from reacting the way they'd REALLY like to.
     
besson3c
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Jan 5, 2009, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I doubt Israel even needs our support, if nothing else I think our involvement keeps them from reacting the way they'd REALLY like to.
If they don't really need our support why are we still there? World War II was a long time ago...

While I'm sure most people here are more sympathetic to Israel, clearly throughout the history of the struggles between Israeles and Palestinians both sides carry some blame. I'm growing tired of the score keeping, and really think that at this point it hardly even matters anymore. This war will end when both sides commit to having a new beginning and really mean it. I just don't see what good can possibly come of the US becoming involved in supporting either side at this point. This is where we should listen to Ron Paul.
     
ebuddy
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Jan 5, 2009, 08:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I doubt Israel even needs our support, if nothing else I think our involvement keeps them from reacting the way they'd REALLY like to.
That's absolutely correct IMO. While supportive, we've generally been the first to try to broker a more tempered approach; peace. It never works.

I would maintain from our first material support provided in the form of anti-aircraft artillery in the 60's, the relationship has developed from a sense of moral obligation to the defense of the people of Israel. Aside from these more apparent reasons, the following;
- Israel has provided invaluable intel support.
- Israel offers geopolitical and military leverage/support in the Middle East.
- Israel has historically been a hedge against the former Soviet Union, now Russia.
- Israel offers a governance and set of ideals very similar to our own in a region otherwise hostile to the ideals of the West.
- With the aid of the US, Israel can more effectively maintain their status as the dominant government/economy in this volatile region and offer the best chance at peace and prosperity.
- The US remains a predominantly self-professed Christian nation. Christians share much of their doctrine of faith with Jews. American Jews likewise enjoy a substantial freedom, prosperity, influence, and stake in our country and its policies. This has manifest in over 60% support for Israel and approximately 9% support for the Palestinian.
- Lastly, Americans are generally a pragmatic people and relatively well-informed. They've witnessed the relinquishing of Sinai and Southern Lebanon for example, among other compromises attempting land-for-peace deals that failed. Unidirectional compromises that to the neutral broker seemed frankly suicidal, yet no peace. All the while listening to the speeches of virile hatred illustrating time and again an inability to acknowledge the right of existence to the Israeli people.

If Americans want peace and justice for the region, we should and will continue moral/philosophical, governmental, and material support to the most capable entity in the region to ensure justice prevails. Nothing good would come from our abandonment IMO.
ebuddy
     
Chongo
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Jan 5, 2009, 09:37 PM
 
Most important, the US and the UN needs to let Israel win, unlike the last time, when Israel was on the verge of making Hezbollah irrelevant.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jan 5, 2009, 10:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Israel is in such a unique situation I doubt any other country can be compared to it.

I also think they have every right to attack anyone who screws with them, we in the USA have no idea what it's like to be a tiny country surrounded by hatred.
But, they chose to live there. It's not like they didn't have a lot of history to suggest what was going to happen when they moved to a tiny country where they knew they'd be surrounded by hatred.

I agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, but I don't buy that they have more right than anyone else. They're in a unique situation, but they put themselves into that situation.
     
ebuddy
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Jan 5, 2009, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
But, they chose to live there. It's not like they didn't have a lot of history to suggest what was going to happen when they moved to a tiny country where they knew they'd be surrounded by hatred.

I agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, but I don't buy that they have more right than anyone else. They're in a unique situation, but they put themselves into that situation.
There's a history of violence no matter what region you're discussing. Two parties chose to live there. One party is relentlessly provoking the other with rockets, breaking cease fires, and failing to control the criminal element among them. Who chose to live there is pretty irrelevant at this point. If Palestinians would like to remain there, it is abundantly clear what they must do; stop launching rockets. If they cannot stop launching rockets, they lose their right to live there.
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ebuddy
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Jan 5, 2009, 11:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Most important, the US and the UN needs to let Israel win, unlike the last time, when Israel was on the verge of making Hezbollah irrelevant.
ebuddy
     
besson3c
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Jan 5, 2009, 11:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
There's a history of violence no matter what region you're discussing. Two parties chose to live there. One party is relentlessly provoking the other with rockets, breaking cease fires, and failing to control the criminal element among them. Who chose to live there is pretty irrelevant at this point. If Palestinians would like to remain there, it is abundantly clear what they must do; stop launching rockets. If they cannot stop launching rockets, they lose their right to live there.
Says who? Under whose authority?

I think these sorts of sentiments are party to blame for the ongoing feud there - assuming some sort of moral authority and then score keeping.
     
besson3c
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Jan 5, 2009, 11:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
That's absolutely correct IMO. While supportive, we've generally been the first to try to broker a more tempered approach; peace. It never works.

I would maintain from our first material support provided in the form of anti-aircraft artillery in the 60's, the relationship has developed from a sense of moral obligation to the defense of the people of Israel. Aside from these more apparent reasons, the following;
- Israel has provided invaluable intel support.
- Israel offers geopolitical and military leverage/support in the Middle East.
- Israel has historically been a hedge against the former Soviet Union, now Russia.
- Israel offers a governance and set of ideals very similar to our own in a region otherwise hostile to the ideals of the West.
- With the aid of the US, Israel can more effectively maintain their status as the dominant government/economy in this volatile region and offer the best chance at peace and prosperity.
- The US remains a predominantly self-professed Christian nation. Christians share much of their doctrine of faith with Jews. American Jews likewise enjoy a substantial freedom, prosperity, influence, and stake in our country and its policies. This has manifest in over 60% support for Israel and approximately 9% support for the Palestinian.
- Lastly, Americans are generally a pragmatic people and relatively well-informed. They've witnessed the relinquishing of Sinai and Southern Lebanon for example, among other compromises attempting land-for-peace deals that failed. Unidirectional compromises that to the neutral broker seemed frankly suicidal, yet no peace. All the while listening to the speeches of virile hatred illustrating time and again an inability to acknowledge the right of existence to the Israeli people.

If Americans want peace and justice for the region, we should and will continue moral/philosophical, governmental, and material support to the most capable entity in the region to ensure justice prevails. Nothing good would come from our abandonment IMO.

So, if we are really in the business of morality, is our best strategic national interests under the guise of morality really helping?
     
Atheist
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Jan 5, 2009, 11:33 PM
 
I think there is no real solution. There will never be any form of lasting peace in that region.
     
turtle777
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Jan 6, 2009, 01:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
I think there is no real solution. There will never be any form of lasting peace in that region.
Unfortunately, the kind of asshats that run Hamas will never give in.

True story: Hamas set up shop in a civilian quarter and house. So the Israelis found out, and sent a warning 30 mins before the strike, so the civilians could get out.

What did Hamas do ? Ship in more women with babies, used as human shields.

Is anyone naive enough to think that lasting peace is possible ? I'm not.
And unfortunately, until the people in Gaza stand up against Hamas, they will just get plastered.

-t
     
Snow-i
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Jan 6, 2009, 04:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Says who? Under whose authority?

I think these sorts of sentiments are party to blame for the ongoing feud there - assuming some sort of moral authority and then score keeping.
Says the people with the bigger guns. They have the authority. As a nation, you don't own land...you conquer it and defend it. Modest terminology such as "own" and "occupy" is used to gain relations with the rest of the world...but name any relevant area of land that wasn't taken at some point by those with more power (military, political, and economical), and name another piece of land that if left undefended (militarily, politically, and economically) wouldn't be exploited by existing countries. You can't. Political and economic factors and military alliances keep countries from invading each other nowadays because doing so would be detrimental to their wellbeing.....but in this current situation those factors are being far outweighed by militant needs. This won't end until one side wins militarily. Only then will peace be reached and those left still alive will be the ones content enough to lay down their arms and live their lives peacefully.

My whole point is that past ownership or claim to the land is irrelevant....and you're simply arguing what ought to be but have never been in any part of the world. This isn't the time or place to apply "ought" arguments.

This one's not going to end until Israel flattens Hamas. The faster they do that the sooner people will stop dying.
( Last edited by Snow-i; Jan 6, 2009 at 04:53 AM. )
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Jan 6, 2009, 05:42 AM
 
Well put.
The old "both sides are equally to blame" nonsense is just that. The truth is, rational people could easily be (and in fact, right now, TODAY, this instant, ARE) at peace with Israel.

Hamas et al are the infinitely more irrational side that's far more interested in 'pushing Israel into the sea', than they are being at peace with them. This is easily evidenced by the fact that all the other side would have to do is stop firing misiles and rockets at Israel, stop attacking Israel in ANY manner, stop supporting and funding terror groups, end the whole practice of martyrs, and stop promoting a backwards culture that sees those things as acceptable.

Another thing I disagree with is the idea that it will last forever. History shows that actually, the more unreasonable side of a conflict tends to lose, and eventually generations come along that realizes that doing really stupid things like, say, wearing white sheets and terrorizing people with burning crosses in the night, or in this case, hurling rockets and sucide bombers against innocent civilians, is counterproductive, and ultimately a big waste of time.

When the day comes when the cultural shift happens to the point that virtually any Palestinian looks at someone announcing the intention to fire missiles at people or blow themselves up in a crowd with the same "You're an utterly insane asshole, get away from me" viewpoint that the average person anywhere else in the world would view their neighbor announcing the same thing- the conflict will come to an end. No, it won't happen over night. It may take another century. But reason will eventually prevail over counter-productive insanity. Meanwhile, yes Virginia, Israel will have to defend itself.
     
ebuddy
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Says who? Under whose authority?
Human nature and evolution. For a better illustration of my point, you're welcome to attempt launching rockets downtown. You'll quickly realize that you've lost all your rights. Every last one including your right to live among the populace.

I think these sorts of sentiments are party to blame for the ongoing feud there - assuming some sort of moral authority and then score keeping.
It is what it is besson3c. This is the way of things. When you attempt to hold civilians hostage by insisting on engaging military activity from among them, you're trying to rack up the score of civilian casualties to illustrate how horrible the Israeli defense is. The game of Hamas is scorekeeping, Israel must ignore their scoreboard to end the violence. Unfortunate, but true.

Like I said, nothing short of absolutely 0 rockets deployed into Israel is going to suffice for a civilized people.
ebuddy
     
Chongo
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Jan 6, 2009, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Unfortunately, the kind of asshats that run Hamas will never give in.

True story: Hamas set up shop in a civilian quarter and house. So the Israelis found out, and sent a warning 30 mins before the strike, so the civilians could get out.

What did Hamas do ? Ship in more women with babies, used as human shields.

Is anyone naive enough to think that lasting peace is possible ? I'm not.
And unfortunately, until the people in Gaza stand up against Hamas, they will just get plastered.

-t
Again, I quote Golda Meir
“We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Jan 6, 2009, 12:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
True story: Hamas set up shop in a civilian quarter and house. So the Israelis found out, and sent a warning 30 mins before the strike, so the civilians could get out.

What did Hamas do ? Ship in more women with babies, used as human shields.
Pretty crazy, and crazier still that I wouldn't bat an eye in putting it past Hamas.

Got a link for this story should I get the opportunity to repeat it?

greg
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Chuckit
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Jan 6, 2009, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Says who? Under whose authority?

I think these sorts of sentiments are party to blame for the ongoing feud there - assuming some sort of moral authority and then score keeping.
The same authority that would lock me up if I tried launching rockets at Los Angeles — the government that's in charge of keeping the country safe.
Chuck
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Jan 6, 2009, 01:06 PM
 
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turtle777
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Jan 6, 2009, 01:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Pretty crazy, and crazier still that I wouldn't bat an eye in putting it past Hamas.

Got a link for this story should I get the opportunity to repeat it?
Originally Posted by WSJ
In a recent incident related to me by the former head of the Israeli air force, Israeli intelligence learned that a family's house in Gaza was being used to manufacture rockets. The Israeli military gave the residents 30 minutes to leave. Instead, the owner called Hamas, which sent mothers carrying babies to the house.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1230...googlenews_wsj

-t
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Human nature and evolution. For a better illustration of my point, you're welcome to attempt launching rockets downtown. You'll quickly realize that you've lost all your rights. Every last one including your right to live among the populace.


It is what it is besson3c. This is the way of things. When you attempt to hold civilians hostage by insisting on engaging military activity from among them, you're trying to rack up the score of civilian casualties to illustrate how horrible the Israeli defense is. The game of Hamas is scorekeeping, Israel must ignore their scoreboard to end the violence. Unfortunate, but true.

Like I said, nothing short of absolutely 0 rockets deployed into Israel is going to suffice for a civilized people.

This is more score keeping. You are looking at this particular incident and assigning points to Israel based on the behavior of Hamas, and using this to justify whatever. Whether or not I disagree with your assessment of your tally of this current situation is irrelevant. The problem is that this continues because there is score keeping going on, when it's not our place to keep score.

What we want to do, and what you're doing is sort of like looking at the relationship of a couple and saying "that guy is being abusive and that is absolutely not tolerable, she needs to leave him" which when taken at face value sounds completely rational and sensible. The problem is, when you look at the grand sum of their relationship and their total history there are people on the other side saying "yeah, well the woman did this or that horrible thing, so while we're not crazy about what she did this last time, we still think that overall she is in the right". Every time a further incident happens, this process is looped, the situation often becomes more and more intense, and the onlookers on both sides increasingly verbal and involved in trying to "make things better".

The problem is, there is nothing we can do to make things better at this point. The only solution is for both parties to realize that continuing war is against their self interests, to go their separate ways, and to remain committed to stay apart and leave each other be.
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
The same authority that would lock me up if I tried launching rockets at Los Angeles — the government that's in charge of keeping the country safe.
But Hamas did not attack LA, they attacked Gaza. We, as onlookers, have no authority to act based on how we feel about their personal feud so long as it remains their personal feud. The problem is, it can be argued that the feud is more than their personal feud for them and the world, but unfortunately our actions can only make things worse. Therefore, we have no authority to attempt to make things better when the risk is far greater in making things worse just because we feel emotionally compelled.
     
Monique  (op)
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Jan 6, 2009, 01:47 PM
 
Israel's children have also the right to live.

The reason why they chose Palestine is that no one wanted the Jews and they were almost wipe out of the earth.

Palestinians had the choice to accept the new government or to live somewhere else. They chose violence from the start when they persuaded the Arab countries (6 of them) to attack Israel. From that point on it was an ongoing battle to wipe out Israel from the earth.

If what happened 60 years ago is irrelevant so is the claim from the Palestinians to any land.

Israel won the Gaza strip and West bank fair and square after the 1968's war. If it would be the other way aroung would the Arab countries give back the territories, I do not think so.

But, in the latest treaty of 2006 Israel had agreed to give back the territories but that did not stop the violence.

I have a co-worker that says if Israel goes back to its original territory there would be no more fighting. I do not think so.

Palestinians have long ago decided to play the victims as for the Israeli they have built a thriving country.
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Monique View Post
Israel's children have also the right to live.

The reason why they chose Palestine is that no one wanted the Jews and they were almost wipe out of the earth.

Palestinians had the choice to accept the new government or to live somewhere else. They chose violence from the start when they persuaded the Arab countries (6 of them) to attack Israel. From that point on it was an ongoing battle to wipe out Israel from the earth.

If what happened 60 years ago is irrelevant so is the claim from the Palestinians to any land.

Israel won the Gaza strip and West bank fair and square after the 1968's war. If it would be the other way aroung would the Arab countries give back the territories, I do not think so.

But, in the latest treaty of 2006 Israel had agreed to give back the territories but that did not stop the violence.

I have a co-worker that says if Israel goes back to its original territory there would be no more fighting. I do not think so.

Palestinians have long ago decided to play the victims as for the Israeli they have built a thriving country.

It's not this cut and dry, Monique... How could Israel have won anything after WW II "fair and square" when we clearly supported them as the only world's superpower?

Again, this is simply scorekeeping, and while we could go back and forth about these things all day and you would find agreement on many counts, it is ultimately pointless. The violence is not going to be quelled with more scorekeeping.
     
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Jan 6, 2009, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It's not this cut and dry, Monique... How could Israel have won anything after WW II "fair and square" when we clearly supported them as the only world's superpower?

Again, this is simply scorekeeping, and while we could go back and forth about these things all day and you would find agreement on many counts, it is ultimately pointless. The violence is not going to be quelled with more scorekeeping.
Not to pick nits, but we WEREN'T the "world's only superpower" after WWII. The OTHER superpower (remember the USSR?) was supplying ALL of their neighbors with free weapons, which they immediately used to attack the Israelies.

See, here's the difference. Israel's immediate neighbors (countries) have mostly learned the lesson and leave Israel alone. Now the Iranians, through their proxies, are learning the same lesson.

The OTHER difference is that the US never has intervened directly and even actually particiapted, unlike the Soviet Union, which sent "advisors" and pilots who flew active missionas against the Israelies.

There is a reason ALL of the other Arabian powers in the area except Syria and Iran are mute on this, they all wish Iran's attempts at accendancy to end.
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Jan 6, 2009, 02:08 PM
 
True, we weren't the only superpower after WW II... My point still remains though.

Whether we are supporting directly or financially, it's still support.
     
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Jan 6, 2009, 02:43 PM
 
Newsflash for you, besson3c, so is Russia - those AK-47s aren't made in Syria. So is Iran, Grad missiles come from there.

Superpower means nothing, unless directly involved. There is no power projected other than the immediate protagonists.

Net exporter of weaponry is the true point.
"That Others May Live"
On the ISG: "The nation's capital hasn't seen such concentrated wisdom in one place since Paris Hilton dined alone at the Hooters on Connecticut Avenue." - John Podhoretz
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 02:50 PM
 
Does Russia supporting Israel as well make it all right for us to remain involved in light of everything that has been said?
     
Macrobat
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Jan 6, 2009, 03:49 PM
 
Means absolutely nothing. Point is that you were attempting to raise an argument that Israel does as she does because of backing from the US. The same US that, no matter what happens, has NEVER intervened militarily on Israel's behalf - unlike the Soviet Union for the Arabs. AND, the SAME US who has been INSTRUMENTAL in getting Israel to back off through threats of cutting off said trade on NUMEROUS occasions.

We AREN'T involved, your "remain involved" is specious.

We both sell Israel military and non-military materials and we BUY both military and non-military materials FROM Israeli firms (for instance, key components of the Patriot missile system's guidance and some of the best prepress hardware for the printing industry on the planet). The US and Israel have a TRADE relationship (two-way), not an AID relationship.
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besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 03:51 PM
 
Do we sell military equipment to the Palestinians as well?
     
Macrobat
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Jan 6, 2009, 03:55 PM
 
No. What difference does that make? We DO provide vast amounts of other assistance to the Palestinians. We also sell to Finland, Sweden, Portugal, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Italy, and hundreds of other countries. You have no point. Palestine is not - as yet - a country.

The FACT remains that the US is more a friend to the Arabs in the area than ANYONE because it has historically been the United States that has gotten Israel to back off when in conflict.
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Jan 6, 2009, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
No. What difference does that make? We DO provide vast amounts of other assistance to the Palestinians. We also sell to Finland, Sweden, Portugal, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Italy, and hundreds of other countries. You have no point. Palestine is not - as yet - a country.
If any Arab country in that area wanted to buy our weapons from us, would we sell? That's the point, you know full well that we would never do business with a country such as Afghanistan unless it served our very specific interests - i.e., there would be conditions attached that would not be attached in a sale to Israel.
     
Macrobat
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Jan 6, 2009, 04:01 PM
 
Already addressed. Right there in the post you quoted. We sell to EGYPT, we sell to JORDAN, we sell to SAUDI ARABIA.

We do NOT sell to known purveyors, exporters and supporters of terrorism.
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besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 04:03 PM
 
So we have come full circle, and have addressed the fact that we support Israel in ways that we do not support the Palestinians. Therefore, we are involved in that conflict.
     
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Jan 6, 2009, 04:08 PM
 
The Palestinians are NOT a country, Israel is one of many COUNTRIES we do business with - again - you keep making noises, but HAVE no point.

Actually, Israel is using FAR more home-grown military technology these days on the ground than anything we provide.

We don't build/sell Merkavas, UZIs, Negevs, Galils, Tavors, Magals, Desert Eagles, et al. Israel does. They also build many of their own aircraft these days.

Pay actual attention next time you see a group of Israeli soldiers and see how many M14/16s you see, Israel owns not ONE M-1 Abrams, for example.

The United States is FAR more involved with other allies, doing actual JOINT military exercises, etc. Countries like South Korea, Japan, Germany, etc.

The U.S. is FAR less involved with Israel than with ANY of our other allies, yet it's our relationship with Israel that keeps sticking in Liberal craws.
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Chongo
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Jan 6, 2009, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So we have come full circle, and have addressed the fact that we support Israel in ways that we do not support the Palestinians. Therefore, we are involved in that conflict.
The US, for decades, gave money to the "Palestinian National Authority" As usual, instead of the money going to infrastructure and food/medicine, it was squirreled away in Swiss bank accounts (See Arafat's beard )
     
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Jan 6, 2009, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Monique View Post
Israel has the right to defend itself no matter what.
Then they should stop this massacre at once.

Because after all... Israel's actions in the current conflict has cost more Israeli lives than Hamas has caused (at least they're somewhat equal).......

"Learn to swim"
     
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Jan 6, 2009, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
As much as I tend to agree, we (Americans) really ought to stop supporting Israel. Let his war play out, nothing good is going to come from our intervention.
I totally agree.

We need to back off and let Israel deal with the situation.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Jan 6, 2009, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
As much as I tend to agree, we (Americans) really ought to stop supporting Israel. Let his war play out, nothing good is going to come from our intervention.
Not all support is the same.

Should we stop supporting Israel in the idea that a country should be able and free to defend itself ? Hell no.

And also: cutting some support would equal lending support to the countries attacking Israel. Is that what we want ?

-t
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
The Palestinians are NOT a country, Israel is one of many COUNTRIES we do business with - again - you keep making noises, but HAVE no point.

Actually, Israel is using FAR more home-grown military technology these days on the ground than anything we provide.

We don't build/sell Merkavas, UZIs, Negevs, Galils, Tavors, Magals, Desert Eagles, et al. Israel does. They also build many of their own aircraft these days.

Pay actual attention next time you see a group of Israeli soldiers and see how many M14/16s you see, Israel owns not ONE M-1 Abrams, for example.

The United States is FAR more involved with other allies, doing actual JOINT military exercises, etc. Countries like South Korea, Japan, Germany, etc.

The U.S. is FAR less involved with Israel than with ANY of our other allies, yet it's our relationship with Israel that keeps sticking in Liberal craws.

Support comes on other forms other than sales of weapons. There is the Jewish lobby and its influence on our politics (e.g. discussions about Florida votes, Obama having to explicitly announce his support of Israel during his campaign - I think he said that there is "no greater friend of Israel" or something like that, etc.), there is the rhetoric of our leadership, there is history, and there is simply public opinion of support whether it exists or not.

I'm fully aware that there is no country of Palestine, but while we can play around with the semantics of what I'm saying, it is clear to me and hopefully most others that we have been far more supportive of Israel and have chosen sides in a number of ways, which is somewhat understandable since we empathize with them culturally far more to begin with. Whether this is right or not, this needs to end simply because it is not productive for us strategically, not productive for the conflict, and not productive in terms of our relations with the Middle East as a whole.
     
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Jan 6, 2009, 06:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So we have come full circle, and have addressed the fact that we support Israel in ways that we do not support the Palestinians. Therefore, we are involved in that conflict.
Whoopdy do.

So what?

One side has to win this one....and Israel has much more to offer the US and the better part of the world....so why wouldn't we support Israel? To maintain some moral standard? Hell no. We'll do whats best for us. And right now thats "supporting" Israel. Also...the palestinians hate the US as much as Israel...that right there is enough reason to support Israel and not have a trade relationship with them.
     
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Then they should stop this massacre at once.

Because after all... Israel's actions in the current conflict has cost more Israeli lives than Hamas has caused (at least they're somewhat equal).......
They'll pay the short term for the better long term.

Hamas should have learned...a dog bites you once....you don't launch rockets into its yard....
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Not all support is the same.

Should we stop supporting Israel in the idea that a country should be able and free to defend itself ? Hell no.

And also: cutting some support would equal lending support to the countries attacking Israel. Is that what we want ?

-t

We need to get out of the support business altogether as it relates to Israel. My saying this has nothing to do with how I feel about the conflict and who is more or less in the right, my saying this is simply based on the fact that our support has never worked, and never will work.
     
Snow-i
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm fully aware that there is no country of Palestine, but while we can play around with the semantics of what I'm saying, it is clear to me and hopefully most others that we have been far more supportive of Israel and have chosen sides in a number of ways, which is somewhat understandable since we empathize with them culturally far more to begin with. Whether this is right or not, this needs to end simply because it is not productive for us strategically, not productive for the conflict, and not productive in terms of our relations with the Middle East as a whole.
Strategically? How is not productive that way? I could argue against that.

Productive for the conflict? This won't end til one side wins....and that doesn't happen until they've learned they can no longer provoke Israel for international support.

And the negative attention towards us from the ME is already there. Whether we support Israel or not those that hate us hate us just the same.
     
 
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