[Weyland-Yutani]

LiveLeak.com - Fitna the Movie: Geert Wilders' film about the Quran (English)

Relativism vs fundamentalism.

Atheism vs Islam.

Modern days vs the dark ages.

This video is kind of a 'wake-up' call to Europeans. The question is: did you wake up, or are you going to post an apologistic rant below on how Islam really is just like religion "x" or no worse than group "y" or that this group "z" of muslims aren't representatives of Islam?

I certainly woke up. Did you?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

LiveLeak.com - Fitna the Movie: Geert Wilders' film about the Quran (English)

Relativism vs fundamentalism.

Atheism vs Islam.

Modern days vs the dark ages.

This video is kind of a 'wake-up' call to Europeans. The question is: did you wake up, or are you going to post an apologistic rant below on how Islam really is just like religion "x" or no worse than group "y" or that this group "z" of muslims aren't representatives of Islam?

I certainly woke up. Did you?

I certainly woke up to the fact how even otherwise intelligent people can fall for propaganda and cheap tricks, both among the muslims and among the westerners (yes, you are an example for it, Weyland-Yutani).

Don't you learn anything in school these days, that taking snippets out of a text without neither historical nor textual context, translated poorly ontop and montaged around can vastly distort the meaning or even more can be instrumentalised to mean whatever one wants? Or don't schools teach pupils how to use critical thinking anymore?

This is what demagoguery relies on, and these techniques are used both by extremists in the islamic world as well as by islamophobes in the west.

Sad.

Taliesin

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

I certainly woke up to the fact how even otherwise intelligent people can fall for propaganda and cheap tricks, both among the muslims and among the westerners (yes, you are an example for it, Weyland-Yutani).

Don't you learn anything in school these days, that taking snippets out of a text without neither historical nor textual context, translated poorly ontop and montaged around can vastly distort the meaning or even more can be instrumentalised to mean whatever one wants? Or don't schools teach pupils how to use critical thinking anymore?

This is what demagoguery relies on, and these techniques are used both by extremists in the islamic world as well as by islamophobes in the west.

Sad.

Taliesin

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

I certainly woke up to the fact how even otherwise intelligent people can fall for propaganda and cheap tricks, both among the muslims and among the westerners (yes, you are an example for it, Weyland-Yutani).

Don't you learn anything in school these days, that taking snippets out of a text without neither historical nor textual context, translated poorly ontop and montaged around can vastly distort the meaning or even more can be instrumentalised to mean whatever one wants? Or don't schools teach pupils how to use critical thinking anymore?

This is what demagoguery relies on, and these techniques are used both by extremists in the islamic world as well as by islamophobes in the west.

Sad.

Taliesin

That's certainly an opinion to have. The usual moral-relativist liberal hogwash, but an opinion. Most commies in the West agree with you, I guess they all got top grades in class..

[Weyland-Yutani]

YouTube - Geert Wilders Speaks: Anti-Koran Film (Part 1 of 2)

YouTube - Geert Wilders Speaks: Muslims & Tolerance (Part 2 of 2)

This as an interview with the man who made the short film and he explains his reasonings behind making it. I guess it is a necessary compendium to fend of moral-relativists.

[zwiebel_]

Go back to sleep

[BRussell]

You woke up? You didn't know what was going on before watching this? Because the rest of us have known about violent Islamists for quite a long time, and didn't need some attention-grabbing politician to package it together with spooky and emotional music and visuals for them. Maybe you could just try reading a little instead? I recommend things called "books" and "newspapers" as a good place to start.

[Doofy]

I woke up on 21st December 1988.

[el chupacabra]

you haven't been asleep since 1988?!

[pooka]

Targeted advertising is creepy.... Anyone else see this banner when reading this thread?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by pooka 

Targeted advertising is creepy.... Anyone else see this banner when reading this thread?

No, but there's this in the Google ads:

Girls Muslim Dating
Meet beautiful Muslim girls. Date Muslim girl free. Date free now.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

You woke up? You didn't know what was going on before watching this? Because the rest of us have known about violent Islamists for quite a long time...

The film basically states that violent islamists were the real muslims, that the Quran were what "Mein Kampf" was for the Hitler-regime...

In the past twenty five years Geert Wilders has visited Israel about forty times, he says. According to his own sayings, he has met Ariel Sharon ("many times") and Ehud Olmert, among others, in Israel. Furthermore, he claims tight connections with the Mossad.[24]

Originally, Wilders wanted to move to the Jewish state because he thought one could, as opposed to the Netherlands, 'work for your own money'.[24] Wilders worked in bread factories and a moshav.[25] With the money he earned, he traveled through Israel and some near countries. He started to love Israel, or as he states it in his own words in 2003: "The past years I have visited many interesting countries, from Tunisia to Turkey and from Cyprus to Iran, but nowhere I have that special feeling of solidarity that I always get if I set foot on the Israeli Ben Gurion Airport." [24]

Wilders has, in the eight years he has served in the Dutch Parliament, always supported Israel and attacked countries he perceives as enemies of Israel.[24] More than a few members of the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy suspect Wilders of taking guidance from the Israeli Embassy in the Netherlands (which is only a few meters away from the Dutch Parliament) in order to question Dutch ministers. Wilders has always denied this. [24]

Furthermore, Wilders has made some proposals in the Dutch Parliament inspired by Israel. For example, in 2005 Wilders proposed implementing Israel's administrative detention in the Netherlands, a practice heavily criticized by human rights group Amnesty International. Also, at the time Wilders was member of the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy, he had an employee who directly came from the Israeli Embassy. [24]

Source: Geert Wilders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He is a tool.

Taliesin

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

You woke up? You didn't know what was going on before watching this? Because the rest of us have known about violent Islamists for quite a long time, and didn't need some attention-grabbing politician to package it together with spooky and emotional music and visuals for them. Maybe you could just try reading a little instead? I recommend things called "books" and "newspapers" as a good place to start.

Well hell-o captain presumptuous!

I think I never stated when I woke up, now did I? It is safe to say I've known all this for years, but I actively sought knowledge.

You just go and be extra-proud of your infantile personal attacks, ok?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Taliesin 

The film basically states that violent islamists were the real muslims, that the Quran were what "Mein Kampf" was for the Hitler-regime...



Source: Geert Wilders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He is a tool.

Taliesin

Attack the messanger, ignore the message. The message is: the Koran is being used by muslim fundamentalists to justify themselves. The problem is that moderate muslims agree in thought, if not action.

Mr Wilder is what he is, but it doesn't change the message.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

LiveLeak.com - Fitna the Movie: Geert Wilders' film about the Quran (English)

Relativism vs fundamentalism.

I think plenty of people need to wake up and smell the coffee, worldwide. But these images are nothing new, nothing we haven't heard or seen before. Some people just refuse to believe and/or act unless it confronts them personally. This doesn't even do that, so it won't work.

The downside of this is that there are a few (in some places, very few) progressive Muslims out there who don't deserve the tarring. There are even some who stand up and try to make a difference (many of these end up dead, depending on where they live).

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

Attack the messanger, ignore the message.

Actually I took the time to ponder the message for years, but always came to the conclusion that it was nonsense.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

The message is: the Koran is being used by muslim fundamentalists to justify themselves.

Really? Now that is some news. If the film had not been made I would have never known that radical islamists use the Quran and hadiths to justify their ideologies. What a shocker.

No, seriously, what do you think have we discussed here and elsewhere for years?

Every radical islamist-group uses the Quran and hadiths to justify their ideologies, from the Muslim Brotherhood to Hamas, Hezbollah to Alqaeeda, but that doesn't make them right.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

The problem is that moderate muslims agree in thought, if not action.

Nonsense, moderate muslims usually don't know what to think, the opinions vary vastly, from secularism, nationalism, orthodoxy, islamism...Most muslims are moderate, the radicals and the progressives are the minorities that are trying to force or convince the moderate masses of their found truth.

The problem is that western islamophobes side with radical islamists in thought.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

Mr Wilder is what he is, but it doesn't change the message.

Since the message is nonsense, I had to get to know who Wilder is and what motivates him to spread such propaganda, and the one point that springs to mind is the decades-long connection with Israel and its officials.

This propaganda has been spread already for years in numerous western books and magazines and websites, on and on... but Mr. Wilder saw obviously the need to bring this propaganda to the attention of the laymen-masses and used the method of video, for we all know laymen-masses don't like to read.

In that sense he acts as a populist.

Taliesin

[Weyland-Yutani]

There is no islamophobia in the Western world. I'm sure you've criticized people who can't or won't make a distinction betweem Jews and Israel.

The Western world has settled on values that are fundamentally incompatible with Islam, but those values work only in a completely secular society.

Islam in the West is calling for a regression in that regard. It's a sleeping dragon, which is being poked by Muslims living in the West.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Now the movie has been removed from Live Leak..









This is the face of modern islam. "Believe our beliefs, or be attacked."

There are moderates, but actions prove louder than words. Criticize islam and you will be killed.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Scary.

greg

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

This is the face of modern islam. "Believe our beliefs, or be attacked."

There are moderates, but actions prove louder than words. Criticize islam and you will be killed.

This is unfortunately true.

Funny sad how predictable they are. We all knew this was going to happen.

So, when was the last time you had someone received death threats for publishing controversial materials or opinions about Christianity ?

-t

[turtle777]

Ok, so here's my thought.

Many people say in defense of Islam that only a minority thinks like that and is radical.

I say: so what ? This minority still has to be eliminated, by any means necessary.

Look at Nazi Germany. Where all Germans Nazis ? Hell no.
Did it take invasion of Germany and suffering among ALL Germans to weed out Nazism ? Yes, indeed.

Muslims all over the world need to understand: either they will stand up against their own radicalized brothers and sisters, or the West will do it for them.

-t

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Look at Nazi Germany. Where all Germans Nazis ? Hell no.
Did it take invasion of Germany and suffering among ALL Germans to weed out Nazism ? Yes, indeed.

Islam does not equal Nazism. Islam is in no way similar to Nazism.

Muslims all over the world need to understand: either they will stand up against their own radicalized brothers and sisters, or the West will do it for them.

-t

So you will force us to be free..... or something like that....

Two things come to mind:

1. White man's burden

and

2. Stop asking the rape-victim why it hates the rapist.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Islam does not equal Nazism. Islam is in no way similar to Nazism.

Can you say that with a straight face ? Yeah, thought so...

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

2. Stop asking the rape-victim why it hates the rapist.

In the case of militant Islam, the whole world is the rape victim.

And your attitude is *exactly* what will get Islam its collective ass whipped.

-t

[Hawkeye_a]

1. This sort of state/cultural/religious-sponsored barbarism has been going on for around 1400-1500 years now.

2. Any attempt in the past to bring to light what's been going on, on the borders with the perpetrators has been met with the same backlash (death threats, murders, etc).

3. The "free" world has had to bow down to threats and compromise its coverage of the situation.

4. What's more "hateful" ? a cartoon/movie/article or death threats, murders and genocide ? The fact that these people rally against 'hate speech' against them and condone the threats and murders that are committed by members of their society, leads me to believe that 'hate' isn't really the issue they are concerned with. Either that of speech/words is considered far more hateful than actions.

5. Censorship laws/regulations within this community are clear. defamatory reports/articles/speech and even actions against "others" is overlooked, and very often encouraged. the hypocrisy and double standards are blatant, but of course when those criticisms are made against them it's 'hate speech'.

6. More citizens of the free world need to bring to light the very real problems here, with no-holds-barred coverage of the nature of these conflicts that go unreported. Uninhibited , uncensored coverage with no political/economic agenda is necessary, after all "free speech" is the cornerstone of modern,free, civilized society. The fact that these barbarians even attempt to subdue this freedom with death threats, murders and sometime outright war is a reflection on their own society and the very reason, i believe, for the existence of our "defense" forces.... to protect our "way of life", of which "freedom of speech/expression" is a fundamental.

7. Having said that, if the oppressors wish to mount an opposing media campaign, they are free to do so. But as soon as they cross the line with death threats, murders, or any other such ideal that have been cornerstones to their barbaric(relative view, of course) way-of-life (which still persist today in territories they inhabit/invade)... due punishment needs to be applied. It is the responsibility, nay the duty of government in the free world to investigate and prosecute these individuals and/or groups (who make death threats, murder, etc) to the full extent of the law, to protect their citizens and way-of-life.

It is my personal opinion that, when major websites/media outlets have to post such chilling reasons as to why they have to censor/regulate the content they cover that the problem has gone too far and that the governments have not done enough to protect the ideals of the free world.

When candidates stand for elections, they mention 'our way of life' and protecting it. I want freedom of speech and the measures being taken to protect it to be high on their agendas. They believe taking war to them is a way of protecting our free societies, i say protect our freedom of speech domestically and you will preserve our way of life to a much greater extent.

DISCLAIMER: This is a personal opinion and in no way intended to enticing hatred or promote violence, but rather to promote CHANGE for the better.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

There is no islamophobia in the Western world..

There definitely is.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

I'm sure you've criticized people who can't or won't make a distinction betweem Jews and Israel.

Yes, I have, but what's your point?

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

The Western world has settled on values that are fundamentally incompatible with Islam, but those values work only in a completely secular society.
Islam in the West is calling for a regression in that regard. It's a sleeping dragon, which is being poked by Muslims living in the West.

Every monotheistic religion is fundamentally in conflict with a completely secular society and its values. The jews and christians have achieved through a long phase of pressure and exchange of protests and influence a compromise between religion and society, where none side remained unchanged.

Now it's the phase of Islam and society to go through that phase. It's not easy and will probably take decades or centuries but in the end there will be a workable compromise, if God wills.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

1. This sort of state/cultural/religious-sponsored barbarism has been going on for around 1400-1500 years now.

"Bring out the Gimp."

"But the Gimp's sleeping."

"Well, I guess, you just have to go wake him up now, won't you?".

Taliesin

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Can you say that with a straight face ? Yeah, thought so...

Easily.

My religion does not teach hatred of others. My religion does not teach me to put people in concentration camps. My religion does not teach me to go to war with people. My religion does not teach me to betray deals struck with the enemy. And the list goes on.

No religion is close to the state sponsored "Christian" nazism we saw in 1932-1945.

In the case of militant Islam, the whole world is the rape victim.

Actually, the non-white world is the rape victim. It's various ways of reacting to centuries of being raped by the white world should come as no surprise to anyone.

And no, it's not the whole world that's the victim of militant "Islam". It's mostly the Arab world. The West has just experienced a small fraction of militant "Islam".

And I see you conveniently ignored the White Man's Burden comment. Too close to home, eh?

And your attitude is *exactly* what will get Islam its collective ass whipped.

-t

Islam, just like any other ideology/religion can never be "ass whipped". It's thinking like that that is causing much of this strife today. But you will never wake up and realise that.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Islam does not equal Nazism. Islam is in no way similar to Nazism.

He didn't say Islam. I believe the context was extremist Islam or radical Islam. There is a difference. Not acknowledging this difference would be as ignorant as assuming all Muslims are extremist no?

Also, you may want to read up on the rise and fall of Hitler, his ideology, and Mein Kampf. He was as Christian as Charles Darwin. Hitler was actually quite opposed to the Church and the Church one of the only voices (as noted by Einstein) that ever stood in the face of his agenda.

So you will force us to be free..... or something like that....

Not necessarily. Freedom must always be the achievement of those who seek it internally. One choosing bondage cannot be freed. Hateful ideology is cancerous. It does not remain constrained within some arbitrary geological boundary. It needs to grow. If you're not growing, you're dying. If extremist Islam grows, those who do not appreciate it will likewise grow to oppose it.

Two things come to mind:

1. White man's burden

The racist white man's burden is one of accepting the fact that against his will, diversity is the way of things today. They may not appreciate freedoms like freedom of speech and of religion, but those are the way of things in our system of governance today. What you speak of are ills as antiquated as Kipling himself. I know it is useful to bring up yesterday. After all, there are many horrors from yesterday to bring up. The honest will see this for what it is, a measure of progress that you should bring up such obsolete ills. They would also see the attempt at diverting attention away from our contemporary issue here.

There is a new ideology that seeks its own burden and it is not exclusive to Arabs or white people. Today, it will not tolerate contrarian points of view. (as the result of the fitna video reminds us)

2. Stop asking the rape-victim why it hates the rapist.

I'll begin by asking why the rape victim has become more vile than the rapist ever hoped of. One choosing bondage cannot ever be free.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

White Man's Burden: Why the West's Efforts to Aid the Rest Have Done So Much Ill and So Little Good

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

White Man's Burden: Why the West's Efforts to Aid the Rest Have Done So Much Ill and So Little Good

The anti, big government message is literally woven throughout. I wonder how many others caught this. Good intentions, horrible outcomes. I agree!

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Easily.

My religion does not teach me to go to war with people.

Says the fellow using "Sword of Allah" as his name.

Why do you need a sword? Cutting vegetables?

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Says the fellow using "Sword of Allah" as his name.

Why do you need a sword? Cutting vegetables?

Crap. Cutting through the crap people like you spout.

Nothing but a sword will do.

Seen any Amaleks recently?

Missed me?

[Faust]

So ... what is the difference of "falling" for a propaganda video like this and a video that is aimed at fueling the hate for Jews or blacks or (replace it with any ethnic group/religion). This video is no different from the propaganda media that Goebbels utilized in his time. And it is sickening to see that some people fall for it so easily.
I've lived in an Arab country for 8 years during my teens. I know what the average Muslim family life is like. I've lived with them, I've been able to observe them. There are ignorant Muslims. There are ignorant people everywhere, for crying out loud. The average Muslim is not a threat. And I say that as someone whose mother is a Jew. And my mother lived quite well in an Arab country. She worked there. She did have the occasional stupid and ignorant remarks, but so have I because I am half black. So what? Ignorance is everywhere. Stupidity is everywhere. It's populistic shite such as this that causes more stupidity. It doesn't cause awareness of any kind whatsoever. I am shocked that people see this as an eye-opener. Eye-opener to what, exactly?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Faust 

So ... what is the difference of "falling" for a propaganda video like this and a video that is aimed at fueling the hate for Jews or blacks or (replace it with any ethnic group/religion). This video is no different from the propaganda media that Goebbels utilized in his time. And it is sickening to see that some people fall for it so easily.
I've lived in an Arab country for 8 years during my teens. I know what the average Muslim family life is like. I've lived with them, I've been able to observe them. There are ignorant Muslims. There are ignorant people everywhere, for crying out loud. The average Muslim is not a threat. And I say that as someone whose mother is a Jew. And my mother lived quite well in an Arab country. She worked there. She did have the occasional stupid and ignorant remarks, but so have I because I am half black. So what? Ignorance is everywhere. Stupidity is everywhere. It's populistic shite such as this that causes more stupidity. It doesn't cause awareness of any kind whatsoever. I am shocked that people see this as an eye-opener. Eye-opener to what, exactly?

The moral-relativism of people like you, sadly

[Faust]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

The moral-relativism of people like you, sadly

And what exactly do you mean by "people like me"? What is your argument? Is that the best you can do?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Crap. Cutting through the crap people like you spout.

Nothing but a sword will do.

Seen any Amaleks recently?

Do you realize the bullsh!t irony in your words ?

-t

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Faust 

And what exactly do you mean by "people like me"? What is your argument? Is that the best you can do?

This isn't a fight where either one of us 'wins'. Moral-relativity is one of the fundamental causes for this mess. An observation as un-controversial as 'the night is dark'.

[vmarks]

Humor us.
I usually use 'moral equivalence' rather than the term you use. Explain 'moral relativism.'
Then explain what 'this mess' is in particular, and then how 'moral relativism' is a prime cause.

Thanks!

[Faust]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

This isn't a fight where either one of us 'wins'. Moral-relativity is one of the fundamental causes for this mess. An observation as un-controversial as 'the night is dark'.

I'm sorry, but if not being gullible and taking fundamentalist crap as the ultimate truth is considered morally relative, then I'm glad I am one though I admit to not really agreeing with your definition of what moral relativism is, not in this context.

The irony is that this video was created by a fundamentalist. He used Muslims for this movie (oh, what a smart smart move, ey?). He'll use Jews in his next. It's populists like this who are a big part of the problem.

[Kerrigan]

Muslims are teh suck.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Muslims are teh suck.

I can see the video had its intended effect on your target audience, Weyland-Yutani.

W-Y, it's moral relativism to not believe that right and wrong can be judged. Terrorism is wrong. The war in Iraq was wrong. Cutting off people's heads because they're Jewish is wrong. Violence in the name of Islam or any other religion is wrong. And presenting emotional propaganda that is clearly meant to inflame rather than inform as if it is going to wake people up is wrong.

Now who's the moral relativist around here again? Who is unable to clearly judge right and wrong?

[vmarks]

Omar Bakri, the Libyan-based radical Muslim cleric who is barred from Britain, did not think the film was very offensive. "On the contrary, if we leave out the first images and the sound of the page being torn, it could be a film by the [Islamist] Mujahideen," he said. [...]

FT.com / Home UK / UK - Muslim reaction to Dutch film is muted

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

"On the contrary, if we leave out the first images and the sound of the page being torn, it could be a film by the [Islamist] Mujahideen ...

... used in propaganda and recruiting new suicide bombers."



-t

[vmarks]

Then Wilders got it right? Bakri seems to approve.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I can see the video had its intended effect on your target audience, Weyland-Yutani.

Indeed, but the (predictable?) death-threats that caused it to be pulled were the clincher.

Originally Posted by BRussell 

W-Y, it's moral relativism to not believe that right and wrong can be judged. Terrorism is wrong. The war in Iraq was wrong. Cutting off people's heads because they're Jewish is wrong. Violence in the name of Islam or any other religion is wrong. And presenting emotional propaganda that is clearly meant to inflame rather than inform as if it is going to wake people up is wrong.

I agree with all of that except the last part, and that's how I define moral-relativism. You can say that the intention of the video was to inflame, but its author claims it is to inform. Is he being dishonest? Perhaps, but the interview with him that I linked to contests that.

If the video was to make people choose sides, to make up their minds or to investigate and inform themselves, then it was *right* as opposed to wrong.

It is the moral relativism and strange 'guilt' of many Westerners that dismiss the Islamic extremists with a simple phrase: "we've done bad things too and most Muslims are moderates" or to put it simply "who are we to judge them?".

While not all Muslims are terrorists, nearly all terrorists are Muslims. That's an incredibly inflammatory observation, but it's true. It's not wrong in any sense of the word. The problem lies in Islam, but the clincher lies with the spineless moral-relativists who can't pass judgement against those who sympathize with terrorists, who feel for them - although those supporters don't commit terrorist acts themselves.

However terrorism is again just part of the problem. Abuse of human-rights, anti-democratic tendencies and the inability to seperate religion from Common Law are also immensely problematic for Muslims in the West where human rights, democracy and the seperations of Law and religion is taken for granted.

We used to belive, before we threw God away. Religion is a hobby, it's practice is quaint and Christianity's highest religious festivals are about a man in a red suit and chockolate eggs.

To true muslims, moderate or extremist, religion is an inseperable part of life. Much like it was in the West not 300 years ago.

Nietche, psychology, socialism, Darwin and guilt from slavery and colonization - to name a few elements - made moral-relativism and political correctness a cornerstone of our 21st century society. All cultures are equal, all religion is equal (it's just a hobby after all) and all opinions must be accepted and respected.

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Now who's the moral relativist around here again? Who is unable to clearly judge right and wrong?

That would be you? I'm not passing any judgement, just suggesting. I don't know you.

Social-relativism is to culture what sociopaths are to persons. Unable to make a distinction between right and wrong.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Then Wilders got it right? Bakri seems to approve.

Of course, Wilders got it right.. painted with a broad brush, but right absoloutly. I hope my post above explains what I mean by social-relativism

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Muslims are teh suck.

Not funny.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

Social-relativism is to culture what sociopaths are to persons. Unable to make a distinction between right and wrong.

Then you'd be right there in that category because this video does NOT make the distinction between Islam and fundamentalism.

[Faust]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

To true muslims, moderate or extremist, religion is an inseperable part of life. Much like it was in the West not 300 years ago.

What is a "true" Muslim? By that very same logic, to a true (whatever you mean by that term) Jew,, religion is inseparable from life. To a true Buddhist, Buddhism is inseparable from life. To a true Christian, Christianity is inseparable from life.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Faust 

Then you'd be right there in that category because this video does NOT make the distinction between Islam and fundamentalism.

And how exactly would that look like ?
Disclaimers ? Constantly acknowledging that there are peaceful muslims ?

Everyone knows that this is addressed towards fundamentalistic and militaristic Islam.

-t