[Abu Bakr]

Very sad to hear this from the Land of the Free� and Home of the Brave�

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases....Poll.bpf.html

full report here:

http://www.comm.cornell.edu/msrg/report1a.pdf


Sad to see this in the year 2004

[deedar]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Very sad to hear this from the Land of the Free� and Home of the Brave�

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases....Poll.bpf.html

full report here:

http://www.comm.cornell.edu/msrg/report1a.pdf


Sad to see this in the year 2004

Sad to see in any year.

[The Oracle]

I bet Western Europe's sentiments are similar.

[TETENAL]

In Europe Muslims always had to register their location with the government.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
In Europe Muslims always had to register their location with the government.

Doesn't everyone?

[Mithras]

Hmmm, 40% of Republicans think American Muslims should have to register their location with the government.
Anyone else reading this book?

History can take quite unexpected turns...

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Mithras:
Hmmm, 40% of Republicans think American Muslims should have to register their location with the government.
Anyone else reading this book?

History can take quite unexpected turns...

It's a shame such a decorated writer can write such trash. I flipped through it at B&N some time ago, and I wasn't impressed. In fact, the whole plot is looney.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
It's a shame such a decorated writer can write such trash. I flipped through it at B&N some time ago, and I wasn't impressed. In fact, the whole plot is looney.

Nezxt time read it instead of flipping through it.

You might get a better idea.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by The Oracle:
I bet Western Europe's sentiments are similar.

Yeah I think so too. Just look how happy Europeans are with Turkey's bid to join the EU.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Yeah I think so too. Just look how happy Europeans are with Turkey's bid to join the EU.

Well, there are some right-wing nutters trying to turn it into a culture clash, but they're getting a lot of heat, at least here in Germany.

The main problems we HAD with Turkey's bid were that the EU doesn't accept members who condone torture, death penalty, and human rights abuses.

We'd have to decline a US application for the same reason.

Turkey, however, has vowed and passed appropriate legal changes in the past few months, thus clearing the way for admittance negotiations. It will become a member provided it adheres to its professed reforms.

-s*

[Athens]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Yeah I think so too. Just look how happy Europeans are with Turkey's bid to join the EU.

Just look at the Netherlands with that recent murder of Vadgo or how ever his name was spelled. This kinda related to my thread about immagration, 50% of Amsterdam is now muslim and they now want to change the dutch society on gay rights, abortion and other things that Dutch as a open free society have chosen into a more Muslim way. The Netherlands got so much Muslim immagration because they had a open door policy, only place in Europe that did.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by Athens:
This kinda related to my thread about immagration, 50% of Amsterdam is now muslim

Where did you get that number from?

And btw, it's kind of sad to see the deflection attempted by The Oracle working. Can we stick to the topic at hand please?

[Athens]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Where did you get that number from?

And btw, it's kind of sad to see the deflection attempted by The Oracle working. Can we stick to the topic at hand please?

I got that number by a friend who lives there. Actually 3 friends said the same rough number. Its not a published fact.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Doesn't everyone?

If you're talking about the mail system, then yes, and it's true in the US too. By law, everyone in the US must be reachable through the postal service, and even post-office boxes still need to be tied to an actual physical address. Given this, it would seem that a separate location register for Muslims, aside from being discriminatory, would be redundant anyway.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Doesn't everyone?

Yes, everyone has to. Muslims too.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Just look how happy Europeans are with Turkey's bid to join the EU.

Yeah, what is it?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...332559,00.html

If you look at the statistics you will see that 65% of the Spaniards favour a EU membership of Turkey.

A more detailed view in English can be found here:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...333126,00.html

While many EU leaders have expressed support for Turkey's full membership, a growing number of voices in Europe, notably the German opposition Christian Democrats (CDU) and other conservative parties across the continent, have been arguing against it, instead promoting the notion of a more limited "privileged partnership" -- an idea intended to keep Turkey at arms length in terms of immigration and EU power-sharing. Indeed, during Thursday's debate in the German Bundestag, CDU leader Angela Merkel even went so far as to say that Turkey's accession would be "a catastrophe."

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Athens:
Just look at the Netherlands with that recent murder of Vadgo or how ever his name was spelled.

*ahem*

van Gogh.

it's not actually a terribly, erm, obscure name

[Spheric Harlot]

So, getting back on topic, how do you figure that the Great Melting Pot� America has failed so drastically that 44% are in favor of culturally/racially discriminatory reduction of liberties?

How could this happen, and isn't that really the end of the spirit that once made America a beacon for all the world?

-s*

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Athens:
I got that number by a friend who lives there. Actually 3 friends said the same rough number. Its not a published fact.

Ahhhh ... so its your friends' anecdotal head count? My dad says that "half the people" in the town I grew up in are now Mexican. The actual number is about 8% ... but compared to the .5% or so 20 years ago, it probably seems that way to him.

The thing that is particularly troubling about this poll is the fact that it is purely religious criteria. I could understand (but not condone) the American pop feeling this way about ethnic Middle Easterners given the frenzy that has been whipped up by the current administration. But to base it solely on the Muslim religion is:
1) Absolutely contrary to our founding principles. One of the key concepts in this nation's Bill of Rights is that religion, in and of itself, is irrelevant to citizenry. Lose a grip on that concept and you've basically turned in to a theocratic state. What comes after registering ? Forcing them to wear a red crescent armband ? Or a Driver's License with religion marked on it ?
2) Ineffective. There are many native born Americans who've converted. There are many parts of the world where muslims (India, Africa, Indonesia, the Balkans etc) come from that would be included in this group. In other words, it would unduly target large numbers of people that NOBOBY is contending are harboring anti-American or terrorist sympathies.
3) Related to 1 .. what would this mean ... that each American would have to provide the gov't with some sort of "declaration of faith" ? Wouldn't this, in a sense, amount to registering ALL Americans by religion? You can't accurately count who the muslims ARE without also counting who the muslims AREN'T, capiche ?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Krusty:
Ahhhh ... so its your friends' anecdotal head count? My dad says that "half the people" in the town I grew up in are now Mexican. The actual number is about 8% ... but compared to the .5% or so 20 years ago, it probably seems that way to him.

According to a quick google survey, ca. 1 million Muslims in Netherlands (6% of total population), the "majority" of which live in Amsterdam (pop. ca. 1.8 million).

So the "half of Amsterdam" claim could well be true, more or less, if three-fourths of Muslims live there.

45% of Amsterdam is foreign-born, according to the authors of "Ethnic Amsterdam". I assume that a number of those 1 million Muslims are Netherland-born.

So, all in all, it seems that there's no reason to doubt the claim.

-s*

[Mithras]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
So, getting back on topic, how do you figure that the Great Melting Pot� America has failed so drastically that 44% are in favor of culturally/racially discriminatory reduction of liberties?

How could this happen, and isn't that really the end of the spirit that once made America a beacon for all the world?

-s*

Oh, but America has always been this way. Slavery, anti-Chinese miscegenation laws, Jim Crow, the Japanese Internment, etc. etc. It's our proud tradition to marginalize and persecute those who are easily identified as "other".

Europe has an even longer tradition of this, of course, which is how America got its start in the first place.

I'd like to think that in the wake of the Japanese Internment, we would be pretty reluctant to pursue a similar policy again. But if we have another Islamic terrorist attack or two, we could definitely head in that direction. We will then have to lean on our courts to uphold civil liberties even against a popular backlash.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
*ahem*

van Gogh.

it's not actually a terribly, erm, obscure name

Ya well im tired, my interest wasent working right and the D was a typo i was just spelling how it sounded

[Athens]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
So, getting back on topic, how do you figure that the Great Melting Pot� America has failed so drastically that 44% are in favor of culturally/racially discriminatory reduction of liberties?

How could this happen, and isn't that really the end of the spirit that once made America a beacon for all the world?

-s*

Its already been like that for a few years, look at the border... Any one from the middle east gets finger printed and the whole works, even if they just look the part. Canadians that have a middle east heritage where getting that treatment for a while.

[Mithras]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
It's a shame such a decorated writer can write such trash. I flipped through it at B&N some time ago, and I wasn't impressed. In fact, the whole plot is looney.

This country sent American citizens of Japanese descent into internment camps during WWII.

If you actually read the book, you'll see that it does not become a Nazi killing-field. But one program that President Lindbergh puts in place is a "Just Folks" program, which sends Jews to live with families in heartland states, to better assimilate. Lindbergh leads a nation that simply does not want to get involved in the European War, and sees the Jews as agitating for war.

Remember, we didn't enter the European war until we were attacked by Japan. None of it goes out of hand, and it rings quite plausibly.

It's a little subpar for a Roth novel, mainly because his characters are less singular than usual, but it's still one of the best novels of the year.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
According to a quick google survey, ca. 1 million Muslims in Netherlands (6% of total population), the "majority" of which live in Amsterdam (pop. ca. 1.8 million).

So the "half of Amsterdam" claim could well be true, more or less, if three-fourths of Muslims live there.

45% of Amsterdam is foreign-born, according to the authors of "Ethnic Amsterdam". I assume that a number of those 1 million Muslims are Netherland-born.

So, all in all, it seems that there's no reason to doubt the claim.

-s*

LOL you beat me to it, I was going to point that fact out

But he does make a good point that in order to do it, every one would have to tell the Government who they believe in. On a side note if I was ever going to pick a religion to follow I would prob pick muslem. Radicals have so warped the fundemantals of the faith most muslems I know are totally disgusted with those people.

[Mithras]

Originally posted by Krusty:
3) Related to 1 .. what would this mean ... that each American would have to provide the gov't with some sort of "declaration of faith" ? Wouldn't this, in a sense, amount to registering ALL Americans by religion? You can't accurately count who the muslims ARE without also counting who the muslims AREN'T, capiche ?

Yes, this is a good point as Athens notes. It would also be an opportunity for civil disobedience as he says -- if a sizeable proportion of citizens registered themselves as Muslim, it would make it much more difficult to pull off.

I can see the Hollywood stars saying, "We are all Muslims now," the impassioned readings of Martin Niem�ller, etc.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Yeah, what is it?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...332559,00.html

If you look at the statistics you will see that 65% of the Spaniards favour a EU membership of Turkey.

A more detailed view in English can be found here:

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...333126,00.html

Religion must not be an objection to Turkey's accession, but its history and culture, which are not European, can be. The EU can assimilate the entry of small countries like Romania or Bulgaria but not a population of 70 million, with a mentality and standards of behaviour alien to its identity. The EU's big danger right now is dying of success. Like a balloon that is blown up without care, it can end up bursting.


Spain's El Mundo


The challenge is enormous. Because today neither is Turkey ready to join nor the EU to integrate it... If it pulls it off, the EU will have succeeded in exporting its best product, democracy, and with its Turkish wedding it will have invalidated the thesis of the clash of civilisations. If it fails, it will fuel it.


Spain's El Pais

[Twilly Spree]

Twilly's prediction for the future: Turkey will not meet the qualifications to be admitted into the EU for the next 300 to 500 years. Reason: Their population is mostly muslim and the inherent backwardness of their religion and culture prevents them from becoming modern and civilized in any sense of the word.

Muslim countries are like counties of medieval Europe with access to guns and WMDs but not the social maturity to hold them.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
Very sad to hear this from the Land of the Free� and Home of the Brave�

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases....Poll.bpf.html

full report here:

http://www.comm.cornell.edu/msrg/report1a.pdf


Sad to see this in the year 2004

As usual with these polls, you have to look at what the poll actually said, not at the headline-grabbing spin.

George Washington University law professor Orin Kerr has some commentary here that is worth looking at. He looked at the questions, and looked at the raw results. There is more than meets the eye.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Their population is mostly muslim and the inherent backwardness of their religion and culture prevents them from becoming modern and civilized in any sense of the word.

do you have one of those charming little mustaches, too, you racist?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
do you have one of those charming little mustaches, too, you racist?

Racist?

[Athens]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Twilly's prediction for the future: Turkey will not meet the qualifications to be admitted into the EU for the next 300 to 500 years. Reason: Their population is mostly muslim and the inherent backwardness of their religion and culture prevents them from becoming modern and civilized in any sense of the word.

Muslim countries are like counties of medieval Europe with access to guns and WMDs but not the social maturity to hold them.

I take great offense to that utter ******** you just said. I have a lot of Muslim friends, and my best friend is Turkish. Have you even to Turkey? Do you know any turks? If not stop talking out of the ass. When I saw pictures of Izmir, I couldn't see any differences to Vancouver as a city. I've watched shows that profiled Istanbul and other areas like Ankara and its just as modern as American cities. Maybe not quite as nice as some European cities but still. And Muslims are not inherently backwards or there religion. True Muslims that follow the koran are way more civilized then the average North American. Read it and maybe you will understand that killing is totally wrong, interest, the hoarding of wealth. There are not a lot of differences between Christens and Muslims. Both have there screwed up fundamentalists, both have there good followers and both have there in between.


Side note COOL OmniWeb has a builtin spell checker LOL.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:

So, all in all, it seems that there's no reason to doubt the claim.
-s*

Fair enough .. its just the "my 3 friends said" part that made the claim seem completely unusable as being either a truth or falsehood. Your numbers at least narrow the muslim pop to "a majority" of 1 mil total that live in Amsterdam .. meaning somewhere between 500k to 1 mil out of 1.8 mil.(so, 27.7 to 55.5%). That substantiates the claim well enough for me

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
As usual with these polls, you have to look at what the poll actually said, not at the headline-grabbing spin.

George Washington University law professor Orin Kerr has some commentary here that is worth looking at. He looked at the questions, and looked at the raw results. There is more than meets the eye.

Interesting link. However ... isn't it fair to say that 44% agreed with at least one of those four statements (and 29% agreed with 2 or more)? So ... which of those 4 statements does not necessarily imply a curtailment of civil liberties for muslims ? If all of them do, then the 44% figure stands as accurate. If you think only one of them could somehow be pulled off without impinging upon their right to freedom of religion,you'd still be left with a minimum of 29% (since anyone who agreed with 2 or more would necessarily have to have agreed with one other of the 3 remaining ones that you don't agree with). I read the study linked from your link and marked the percentages for each individual question below. Please describe which ones are "OK" in your book. We can then take the highest percentage single answer that is left and feel proud that we were able to reduce the number from 44% to 20-something % ... and then say that it isn't really so bad after all since only ~one quarter of our population wants to poop on one of the cornerstone's of our constitution.

1) Muslim civic and volunteer organizations should be infiltrated by undercover law enforcement agents to keep watch on their activities and fundraising. 29%
2) U.S. government agencies should profile citizens as potential threats based on being Muslim or having Middle Eastern heritage. 22%
3) Mosques should be closely monitored and surveilled by U.S. law enforcement agencies. 26%
4) All Muslim Americans should be required to register their whereabouts with the federal government.27%

[Athens]

You know what pisses me off about this ****, the most help I have ever had in my life are from Muslims. My Best 2 friends in the world is a Turkish and a Iranian. Both have been nothing but positive influences in my life, both in helping me, lending me money, helping me get on my feat, being understanding and the most help I have ever got and the most understanding person I have ever meet is Algerian born muslim who follows the TRUE muslim faith no that crap going on in Iraq and the terrorist that are given them all a bad name. Granted he can be cheap, and frustrating yet he has always had the best intentions to move me along in the good ways and only wants to see me succeed. I know true muslims and this is why this crap is so offensive. just imagine if all muslims thought of Christianity based on the events of the cults that pop up here and there. Remember wako Texas, and I know I spelled it wrong but it sounds right. Well thats the same thing that every one is judging Muslims on. The difference is these fundamentalist (Muslim Cults) are leaders of entire countries and are able to warp a greater number of people with there cause because of the extraordinary hardships in the middle east. I think people here need to investigate a little more before judging every one of a faith because of bad apples.

I love this spell checker LOL

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Twilly's prediction for the future: Turkey will not meet the qualifications to be admitted into the EU for the next 300 to 500 years. Reason: Their population is mostly muslim and the inherent backwardness of their religion and culture prevents them from becoming modern and civilized in any sense of the word.

Muslim countries are like counties of medieval Europe with access to guns and WMDs but not the social maturity to hold them.

Well, I hope they won't join any time soon - but it's mostly for the same reason I hope Russia, Egypt, Israel, China and Japan don't join any time soon. :/

I want a strong EU, not a thin-spread and too economically diverse EU. The EU is a zone where people can believe what they want so religion doesn't really enter into it. The making of the Union is a puzzle and Turkey is a piece that doesn't fit.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
do you have one of those charming little mustaches, too, you racist?

The truth isn't always PC.

Muslim nations, especially those that are controlled by the clergy (Iran comes to mind) are extremely backwards and are doing nothing to become modern and civilized. They fear it. Turkey included. They are just inches from being chimps with guns. That's how civilized some of the Middle East is.

Live your life by a book and wear the blinders on. Oh and us Americans are all out to kill you muslims but not before we feed you a Big Mac. That's what we do in your world.

Nah, you don't want to see. You live in your politically correct Europe. Safe from evil. Good for you.

We'll be there to rescue your ass when the Muslims take over.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by Athens:
I take great offense to that utter ******** you just said. I have a lot of Muslim friends, and my best friend is Turkish. Have you even to Turkey? Do you know any turks? If not stop talking out of the ass. When I saw pictures of Izmir, I couldn't see any differences to Vancouver as a city. I've watched shows that profiled Istanbul and other areas like Ankara and its just as modern as American cities. Maybe not quite as nice as some European cities but still. And Muslims are not inherently backwards or there religion. True Muslims that follow the koran are way more civilized then the average North American. Read it and maybe you will understand that killing is totally wrong, interest, the hoarding of wealth. There are not a lot of differences between Christens and Muslims. Both have there screwed up fundamentalists, both have there good followers and both have there in between.


Side note COOL OmniWeb has a builtin spell checker LOL.

Whatever. Show me ONE muslim society that works.

I'm not talking about individuals. You'll find good and bad people everywhere - even though it does muslims a lot of good to live in our western society, I'm sure it makes them better persons.

Actually I know more than a few turks and I've nothing but good to say about those I know. Then again I don't make it my habit to know bad individuals. I'm talking about the society.

Ankara and Istanbul are facades. I've been to Turkey 8 times the last 3 years. Spent more than 6 months there in total. Asides from the touristy west coast the rest of the country and people are like from a Mad Max movie. Heh.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
We'd have to decline a US application for the same reason.

[Twilly Spree]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Well, I hope they won't join any time soon - but it's mostly for the same reason I hope Russia, Egypt, Israel, China and Japan don't join any time soon. :/

I want a strong EU, not a thin-spread and too economically diverse EU. The EU is a zone where people can believe what they want so religion doesn't really enter into it. The making of the Union is a puzzle and Turkey is a piece that doesn't fit.

Are you denying Islam is repressing social development, because if you are you need your eyes checked! Name one muslim society that works in a democratic, just and civilized manner. With equality and human rights. Pah.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:

Turkey, however, has vowed and passed appropriate legal changes in the past few months, thus clearing the way for admittance negotiations. It will become a member provided it adheres to its professed reforms.

-s*

..in 10 to 15 years at the earliest.

I think it is good passing laws and legislations up to a point. In Turkeys case I think it is justified to verify these laws are being upheld and enforced. Yeah I trust them as far as I can throw 'em.

[ebuddy]

You might also know that bipartisan US legislative matters were passed in 2003 for which the ADC had much praise. What you believe you see in our society based on this survey is not reflected in our administration of representatives. So, while the survey is mildly interesting, you gave a total of 715 interviews, 25% respondants and 54% cooperates comprised of those within "a national listed household sample." What sample? How were the questions worded exactly? I'll let you click around.

I'm told; "All results presented in this report have been weighted based on age, gender, and race." While reading the conclusion, I'm compelled to believe they forgot to mention 'religion'.

[vmarks]

Athens,

I see you're upset. You may have some fine friends: How do they answer the fact that those committing acts of great violence are basing those acts on the text of the Qu'ran?

How do they answer the fact that many Muslim charities have been shut down for contributing to terrorists? http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/m...vitt081403.htm - Given the large number of 'charities' that supported terror, should law enforcement ignore such abuse of 'charity' where it exists?

How do they feel about displacing democracies with Shar'ia, such as the Muslim Brotherhood wishes to do? http://www.ummah.org.uk/ikhwan/

Perhaps they don't want to do so: fine and well. If they do, perhaps they hope to do so through education rather than violence: In which case, it's already happening in schools, including one in Columbia, South Carolina, where a teacher required the students to create a pamphlet, which would teach people about Islam and told students that the United States is a 'Judeo-Christian-Muslim' nation…according to the beliefs of the founding fathers.

Perhaps none of these things have ever come up between you and they. Perhaps they don't want anything to do with any of these things, in which case, how do they answer the Muslims such as this leader of a Vancouver mosque ( http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...679667-cp.html ) who agitates for jihad, martyrdom, and the characterization of Jews as "treacherous monkeys and pigs" and defends that characterization because "it's in our Qur'an."

You're in Vancouver- did you hear about that?

These are very real problems being pushed forward by a large number of people, not a lone small cult in Texas.

[Athens]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Athens,

I see you're upset. You may have some fine friends: How do they answer the fact that those committing acts of great violence are basing those acts on the text of the Qu'ran?

Explain why some Christians in the name of the bible kill themselves in massive groups

How do they answer the fact that many Muslim charities have been shut down for contributing to terrorists? http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/m...vitt081403.htm - Given the large number of 'charities' that supported terror, should law enforcement ignore such abuse of 'charity' where it exists?

They should be shut down, of course. But they all shouldnt be targeted just because either. Its either target all charities or none.

How do they feel about displacing democracies with Shar'ia, such as the Muslim Brotherhood wishes to do? http://www.ummah.org.uk/ikhwan/

Cant comment on that, I dont know what that is

Perhaps they don't want to do so: fine and well. If they do, perhaps they hope to do so through education rather than violence: In which case, it's already happening in schools, including one in Columbia, South Carolina, where a teacher required the students to create a pamphlet, which would teach people about Islam and told students that the United States is a 'Judeo-Christian-Muslim' nation…according to the beliefs of the founding fathers.

Any religion of any kind in public schools are wrong.

Perhaps none of these things have ever come up between you and they. Perhaps they don't want anything to do with any of these things, in which case, how do they answer the Muslims such as this leader of a Vancouver mosque ( http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...679667-cp.html ) who agitates for jihad, martyrdom, and the characterization of Jews as "treacherous monkeys and pigs" and defends that characterization because "it's in our Qur'an."

A bad egg with a position of power, which is the problem. Bad eggs twisted in there interpitation or misuse of religion with positions of power that warp the younger generations. And in term give a bad name to all.

You're in Vancouver- did you hear about that?

Of course and none of my friends where impressed with the comments either.

These are very real problems being pushed forward by a large number of people, not a lone small cult in Texas.

THats the real problem its still a small group that are in positions of power that are twisted and warping everything. Should point out 2 of my friend the Turkish and Iranian friends are converted Canadians that technically are muslim, they dont prey, dont go to mosks, and don't believe in whats going on. The third, in his late 50's is a old long time practicing muslim of the way its supose to be and he thinks everything going on in the middle east is wrong too.


Its just funny how history repeats itself. Muslims and Christans have been at war for thousands of years, not always in open conflict. Glad I dont believe in any religion.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Whatever. Show me ONE muslim society that works.

Show me ONE muslim society that hasent had western influence screw everything up

[Mithras]

Hmmm, Malaysia more or less? Indonesia, less or more? For the kinda-working part I mean, not the free-of-influence part.
And I would say Turkey is no worse than say, Russia.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Athens:
Show me ONE muslim society that hasent had western influence screw everything up

How is Western influence responsible for this: What explanation could you possibly provide regarding stories like that of a 16-year-old Iranian girl who was charged with committing “acts incompatible with chastity,” when in fact she was a rape victim? She was not afforded a lawyer and was forced to defend herself. She told the Judge that he shouldn’t punish the victims, but punish the rapists. She was hanged in public, not for the adultery, but according to the Islamic Judge, for “having a sharp tongue.”

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/new...php?storyid=80

As for the Muslim Brotherhood and their intention to take over the world and rule it united under Islamic law (Sharia), this is based on the notion that there is a division of the world between Dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb, and the requirement that there be uncompromising hostility between the two, until the final triumph of the former, and the permanent subjugation, and incorporation into it, of the latter.

[Athens]

Originally posted by vmarks:
How is Western influence responsible for this: What explanation could you possibly provide regarding stories like that of a 16-year-old Iranian girl who was charged with committing “acts incompatible with chastity,” when in fact she was a rape victim? She was not afforded a lawyer and was forced to defend herself. She told the Judge that he shouldn’t punish the victims, but punish the rapists. She was hanged in public, not for the adultery, but according to the Islamic Judge, for “having a sharp tongue.”

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/new...php?storyid=80

As for the Muslim Brotherhood and their intention to take over the world and rule it united under Islamic law (Sharia), this is based on the notion that there is a division of the world between Dar al-Islam and dar al-Harb, and the requirement that there be uncompromising hostility between the two, until the final triumph of the former, and the permanent subjugation, and incorporation into it, of the latter.

Iran is a bad example the entire country is run in a extremest fashion which if you read my other post about Iraq has some remarks about that in a very good article. Iraq for example claimed it was protecting the rest of the middle east from IRans extremes during there 10 year war.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Mithras:
Hmmm, Malaysia more or less? Indonesia, less or more? For the kinda-working part I mean, not the free-of-influence part.
And I would say Turkey is no worse than say, Russia.

Little snippet of Indonesia's American ties for influence

When Indonesia won its independence from the Dutch in 1954, the U.S. took notice. The fourth most populous nation, the largest archipelago-state in the world made up of thousands of mineral-rich islands stretching 3,000 miles across, was no longer in the hands of the "West." President Sukarno was considered a "neutralist" and a leader of the "Third World" nonaligned nations seeking self-determination, a movement threatening western control.

As early as 1955 the CIA and the Pentagon were attempting to undermine Sukarno. This interference included attempts to steal elections, creation of paramilitary sabotage units, building networks with the military, and assassination plans.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Athens,

I see you're upset. You may have some fine friends: How do they answer the fact that those committing acts of great violence are basing those acts on the text of the Qu'ran?
...
These are very real problems being pushed forward by a large number of people, not a lone small cult in Texas.

Can we agree to say: "we have a major problem with a brand of Islamic fundamentalism, which has taken hold in a large proportion of the population of the middle east, but the problem is not necessarily with Islam per se"?

My justification: religious texts are extremely open to interpretation, even more than legal texts (which face a similar problem.) Many people are reading anti-American and anti-Western meanings into Islam, and of course they can find support for those views in the Qu'ran. That is a problem for us.

On the other hand, there is support for all sorts of barbaric behavior in the good old Christian bible as well -- we just ignore those passages (or, as ebuddy suggested in another thread, we hermeneutically "interpret" them out of existence.)

So yeah, we have a problem with a popular form of Islamic fundamentalism right now, but not a problem with Islam. Agreed?

[Athens]

Originally posted by strictlyplaid:
Can we agree to say: "we have a major problem with a brand of Islamic fundamentalism, which has taken hold in a large proportion of the population of the middle east, but the problem is not necessarily with Islam per se"?

My justification: religious texts are extremely open to interpretation, even more than legal texts (which face a similar problem.) Many people are reading anti-American and anti-Western meanings into Islam, and of course they can find support for those views in the Qu'ran. That is a problem for us.

On the other hand, there is support for all sorts of barbaric behavior in the good old Christian bible as well -- we just ignore those passages (or, as ebuddy suggested in another thread, we hermeneutically "interpret" them out of existence.)

So yeah, we have a problem with a popular form of Islamic fundamentalism right now, but not a problem with Islam. Agreed?

I think that is said best. I am going to try and get my Algerian friend to post his thoughts about the topic. He is a very wise man and could prob answer a lot better then I could.