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Improving this forum (Page 3)
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turtle777
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May 20, 2008, 08:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Randman View Post
Hey, speaking of bannination, whatever happened to Rob/Cash? I know it's a derailment but damnit, I have lots to catch up on.
He was let back in for a while, but didn't really change his behavior, and was shown the door.

Now, if you REALLY want a story, ask what happened to Kevin.

-t
     
rickey939
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May 20, 2008, 09:14 PM
 
Is Demonhood still living?
     
turtle777
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May 20, 2008, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by rickey939 View Post
Is Demonhood still living?
No, but his dead grandmother haxxored his account and posted in this thread

-t
     
Demonhood
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May 20, 2008, 09:22 PM
 
did she also make my new video lock? cuz damn, i thought i had logged out of youtube. GHOST GRANDMA!! you rascal you.
     
rickey939
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May 20, 2008, 09:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Demonhood View Post
did she also make my new video lock? cuz damn, i thought i had logged out of youtube. GHOST GRANDMA!! you rascal you.
Phew, thank goodness.
     
turtle777
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May 20, 2008, 09:28 PM
 
Yeah, your grandma rulez.

-t
     
Randman
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May 20, 2008, 09:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
HNow, if you REALLY want a story, ask what happened to Kevin.


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besson3c  (op)
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May 21, 2008, 12:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
butthawk was a prank account, used for trolling, etc. It was banned after it started asking for real-world info - it stops being funny at this point. We can't let a newbie make a mistake falling for something like that - identity theft isn't much fun for the recipient. Except maybe for that guy who stole a convicted sex offender's identity by mistake.
Are you serious? My asking for social numbers was complete idiotic fun - a joke. Do you really think somebody would have fallen for this? How was the phone call with this person's local police supposed to go?

member: "yeah, I'd like to report theft of my social security number"

police: "do you know how your number was obtained?"

member: "well, I gave it to Butthawk"

police: "uh, who is this 'Butthawk'? How is he related to you? Is that his criminal alias?

member: "I don't know, he was this random guy on this Macintosh board that asked me for my social number, so I gave it to him"

police: "do you have any idea what he might use this information for, or why he might have asked this of you?"

member: "well, he did say something about a floopy..."


In light of the extremely low probability of somebody here giving me real information, and me knowing that it was real and somehow acting on this, wouldn't a simple request to cease have been more appropriate? Hell, I would have been happy to delete this part of my post.
( Last edited by besson3c; May 21, 2008 at 12:38 AM. )
     
OreoCookie
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May 21, 2008, 06:06 AM
 
@besson
It was childish and we have to protect other forum members from these kinds of jokes. One long-standing member also jokingly published his MacNN password -- which didn't turn out to be such a brilliant idea after all.

Regarding the general notion of this thread: I remember `the good ol' times' of the PL, for example when people were actually arguing with elaborate posts, links to sources and listening to what the other side said. Some people were even challenging and then changing their own opinion.

Nowadays, some established members prefer to perpetuate feuds which in my opinion scares off noobs, because things seem like a big soap opera at times. More tech, less soap, I say

I don't think the moderation has not as much to do with that. We've recently brought quite a few new staffers on board -- and most of them have been nominated by other members. The quality of the board is determined by its content and thus -- ultimately -- by its members.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
MacosNerd
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May 21, 2008, 07:43 AM
 
n/m
( Last edited by MacosNerd; May 21, 2008 at 09:01 AM. )
     
Dakar the Fourth
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May 21, 2008, 10:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by rickey939 View Post
Is Demonhood still living?
Are Demons something that are considered 'alive'?

it doesn't matter, anyone who posts in Feedback is dead inside anyway.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 21, 2008, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
@besson
It was childish and we have to protect other forum members from these kinds of jokes. One long-standing member also jokingly published his MacNN password -- which didn't turn out to be such a brilliant idea after all.
It was definitely childish, my childish antics are what make me so famous around these parts!

Still, if you really felt that this was a problem (I didn't at the time, obviously), a simple request would have worked just fine, no? Is there a rule against what I did too?

On top of this, this doesn't explain my consequent one month ban that was issued after I was simply asking for information and wanting to clear this up.

I don't want to belabor this issue, but this does illustrate the point I was trying to make earlier. I believe that instead of rigid rules that are carried out to the letter, a bit of context and communication would work far better.

If I've made this point clear, please let me know and I'll stop my reattempts to clarify what may not need further clarification.
     
turtle777
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May 21, 2008, 11:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
On top of this, this doesn't explain my consequent one month ban that was issued after I was simply asking for information and wanting to clear this up.
See, this is what gets me with MacNN: the same stupid mistakes are done over and over again, but no lessons learned. The same that happened to you happened to me, just a year earlier: a ban for "ban evasion" because I was asking for clarification. Total and complete disregard for good intentions (i.e., wanting to learn what one has done wrong.)

When my WTH nick was perma-benned due to this, there was controversial discussion among the mods, but yet, no lesson learned. The same happened to you: a ban for asking a question.

WTF, MacNN ?

That's why I said earlier: if you get a ban, you have to STFU, because everything else will be construed as "malintentious" ban evasion.

-t
     
MacosNerd
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May 21, 2008, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It was definitely childish, my childish antics are what make me so famous around these parts!

Still, if you really felt that this was a problem (I didn't at the time, obviously), a simple request would have worked just fine, no? Is there a rule against what I did too?

On top of this, this doesn't explain my consequent one month ban that was issued after I was simply asking for information and wanting to clear this up.
I think you're taking this way too serious. Its just an internet forum, not the US senate or any other place where you got burned. You've pulled other childish pranks before and you act totally surprised that the mods decided to ban the offending nick w/o any warning. You created the second nick and you got banned and you pull the "woe is me, I'm the victim" act. You were playing with fire and you got burned. Be a man and accept the consequences to your actions.

I don't want to belabor this issue, but this does illustrate the point I was trying to make earlier. I believe that instead of rigid rules that are carried out to the letter, a bit of context and communication would work far better.
But you are, you continue to belabor and harp on the same things over and over. If you were truly sincere you'd find more constructive ways to improve 'NN instead of whining.

If I've made this point clear, please let me know and I'll stop my reattempts to clarify what may not need further clarification.
Yes its clear so you can stop now.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 21, 2008, 01:48 PM
 
MacOSNerd: I was using this incident as an example of something that I think illuminates upon a larger issue that in my observance has affected a number of people in some manner.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 21, 2008, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
See, this is what gets me with MacNN: the same stupid mistakes are done over and over again, but no lessons learned. The same that happened to you happened to me, just a year earlier: a ban for "ban evasion" because I was asking for clarification. Total and complete disregard for good intentions (i.e., wanting to learn what one has done wrong.)

When my WTH nick was perma-benned due to this, there was controversial discussion among the mods, but yet, no lesson learned. The same happened to you: a ban for asking a question.

WTF, MacNN ?

That's why I said earlier: if you get a ban, you have to STFU, because everything else will be construed as "malintentious" ban evasion.

-t

I'm wondering that if in both our cases we were being perceived as trying to be confrontational and questioning of authority in a manner similar to Rob, as opposed to simply trying to start a civil dialog?

Perhaps these processes were established to deal with people like Rob? If so, I think these should be rethought... Rob is the exception, not the norm.
     
turtle777
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May 21, 2008, 02:07 PM
 
But that's the main reason we need clarification of things like

* What does "ban evasion" mean ?
* What type of communication / activity is allowed or disallowed during a temp-ban
* What are the proper ways to resolve conflict or questions

Because these things are not defined, mods play it "by ear" or use their gut feeling, and inadvertently, unfairly punish some users that don't have malintent.

-t
     
Dakar the Fourth
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May 21, 2008, 02:14 PM
 
Damn you and those nice new stars. I woulda gone TNG or TOS first, though.

Edit: Another time-traveling post.
     
Lateralus
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May 21, 2008, 02:15 PM
 
Every time one of these threads is created, it is carried by the same two or three elder members who complain about the same things repeatedly and pretend that they have brain damage when it comes to understanding rules that are easily understood by even the newest of members.

This type of behavior is directly what led to Kevin's forced retirement. And you're quickly duplicating his final steps.
I like chicken
I like liver
Meow Mix, Meow Mix
Please de-liv-er
     
Dakar the Fourth
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May 21, 2008, 02:20 PM
 
Fair enough. Give yourself pips and you'd be a Fleet Admiral.

Edit: TT
     
Lateralus
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May 21, 2008, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
Damn you and those nice new stars. I woulda gone TNG or TOS first, though.
Thanks.

I'm a DS9 fan though. So these stars fit well.
I like chicken
I like liver
Meow Mix, Meow Mix
Please de-liv-er
     
subego
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May 21, 2008, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
This type of behavior is directly what led to Kevin's forced retirement. And you're quickly duplicating his final steps.

Kevin's final steps were to threaten to make posts from the moderator forum public and go Rob on your ass.

I don't see the connection, and would be insulted if I were the one you were talking to.

I don't care if you think they're "brain damaged" (really nice BTW), they're being polite.
     
starman
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May 21, 2008, 02:39 PM
 
(backing away slowly)

Home - Twitter - Sig Wall-Retired - Flickr
     
Dakar the Fourth
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May 21, 2008, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
(backing away slowly)
*sneaks up from behind, puts hand on shoulder and directs him back in*
     
Lateralus
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May 21, 2008, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Kevin's final steps were to threaten to make posts from the moderator forum public and go Rob on your ass.
Do you honestly think you know the full details surrounding Kevin's ban?

I don't care if you think they're "brain damaged" (really nice BTW)...
I like chicken
I like liver
Meow Mix, Meow Mix
Please de-liv-er
     
Randman
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May 21, 2008, 02:48 PM
 
Lol, I missed this place, dysfunctional as it was/is.


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turtle777
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May 21, 2008, 02:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
Every time one of these threads is created, it is carried by the same two or three elder members who complain about the same things repeatedly and pretend that they have brain damage when it comes to understanding rules that are easily understood by even the newest of members.
First off, thanks for accusing me of brain damage.
Quite funny, I got an infraction yesterday for accusing someone of having Alzheimer's. So, would you get an infraction, too, or de we have a double standard ?

Secondly, "rules that are easily understood by even the newest of members."

O'Rly ? Because even Glenn couldn't give me some of the answers (see bellow), I guess me and Glenn must really be more dense than the newest members.

How about this, since I'm so retarded, please enlighten me. Simple yes / no answers suffice:

1) Is asking a mod / admin for clarification via PM during a temp-ban ban evasion ?
2) Is asking a mod / admin for clarification via IM during a temp-ban ban evasion ?
3) Is having double handles of regular members (not incl. joke accounts) against MacNN rules ?

Thanks again for belittling members like besson and me, who acted in good faith, wanting to find out what they did wrong, and then got treated like spammers or Rob.

-t
     
subego
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May 21, 2008, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
Do you honestly think you know the full details surrounding Kevin's ban?

I know about his threats because I was here when he posted them.

Are you telling me that wasn't the straw that broke the hampstor's back?
     
reader50
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May 21, 2008, 03:00 PM
 
Calm down, everyone. It's not Ragnarök today.

Any use of the board while your primary handle is banned is ban-evasion. Contacting staff via IM or email is not ban evasion. I once posted how to reach us to try and fix a ban if it were given in error. Ca$h found the instructions and tried them. Didn't work, we knew it was him.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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May 21, 2008, 03:01 PM
 
$5 says Demonhood, gh, and whatever other admins my memory fails to recollect just turned to reader and said, "Well newb, go out there earn your non-pay."
     
turtle777
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May 21, 2008, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Any use of the board while your primary handle is banned is ban-evasion. Contacting staff via IM or email is not ban evasion. I once posted how to reach us to try and fix a ban if it were given in error.
Thanks, Reader50.

I checked with the "General forum" rules, but no luck.
Would you mind posting a link to those instructions.

Maybe even linking that post to the "General forum" rules.

Thanks,

-t

Edit: found it.

Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Contacting staff is a problem while banned. The system won't allow emails to be sent through it. I poked at the problem once for personal curiosity, and was able to solve it. The answer is to check the Staff List page. Pull up the info page for each staff member, by clicking on their names. A number of staff members (myself included) list IM handles, usually on AIM or ICQ. Sometimes on MSN. Look through the list for someone to make your case to.
( Last edited by turtle777; May 21, 2008 at 03:08 PM. )
     
Cold Warrior
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May 21, 2008, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Thanks, Reader50.

I checked with the "General forum" rules, but no luck.
Would you mind posting a link to those instructions.

Maybe even linking that post to the "General forum" rules.

Thanks,

-t

Edit: found it.
The original post was here: http://forums.macnn.com/61/feedback/...a/#post3538414
To show the groups here: http://forums.macnn.com/showgroups.php
     
Randman
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May 21, 2008, 03:12 PM
 
Considering the thread headline is

"Improving this forum", one suggestion is for people to chill a little. Nothing is as bad as it seems.

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turtle777
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May 21, 2008, 03:12 PM
 
Thanks, CW.

I did some digging as well, see my edited post.

-t
     
turtle777
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May 21, 2008, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
It was first mentioned in a reply to yourself here, then I fleshed out the details a bit further down in another reply to yourself.

Must be all those crazy posts you have. It's hard to remember them all 5K posts later.
Yeah, I saw that.

So maybe I am really brain damaged

-t

Edit: damnit, hampstor.
     
reader50
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May 21, 2008, 03:13 PM
 
It was first mentioned in a reply to yourself here, then I fleshed out the details a bit further down in another reply to yourself.

Must be all those crazy posts you have. It's hard to remember them all 5K posts later.
     
Cold Warrior
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May 21, 2008, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Thanks, CW.

I did some digging as well, see my edited post.

-t
Yeah. I saw the original pre-edit post, so I went out to research (I'd actually been reading old feedback threads today, so that one was fresh in my browser history). By the time I returned and clicked reply, I saw your edit. Since I'd done the research, I decided to post anyway. I'm on dial up right now (visiting someone in a very rural area), so it took me a long time to find, load, quote, and post.
     
turtle777
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May 21, 2008, 03:21 PM
 
I appreciate your efforts.

-t
     
reader50
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May 21, 2008, 03:37 PM
 
I tend to load threads in tabs. Start replies, dig up links as needed to fill in, and post. This isn't the first time I've been scooped. And by someone on dailup this time. Now that's a tad embarrassing. Oh well, back to hacking my new stars script.
     
OreoCookie
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May 21, 2008, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
3) Is having double handles of regular members (not incl. joke accounts) against MacNN rules ?
As soon as someone pretends to have `multiple personalities,' i. e. that person actively tries to hide his other identity and use his other nick to bolster his `arguments', for example, we will ban the second nick and warn the original member.

If it is clear that several nicks belong to one and the same person, multiple nicks are ok. Unless that member is trying to evade his/her ban, of course.

This should be common sense. It's hard to put all this into a short, simple to understand rule, though.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
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May 21, 2008, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
As soon as someone pretends to have `multiple personalities,' i. e. that person actively tries to hide his other identity and use his other nick to bolster his `arguments', for example

a/k/a sockpuppeting.

Sockpuppet (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 21, 2008, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
Every time one of these threads is created, it is carried by the same two or three elder members who complain about the same things repeatedly and pretend that they have brain damage when it comes to understanding rules that are easily understood by even the newest of members.

This type of behavior is directly what led to Kevin's forced retirement. And you're quickly duplicating his final steps.

What's with the insulting tone? We are asking for clarification, and this is being met with insults? No offense, but how is it our fault that you guys are unable to articulate the clarity that we are asking for? We are both mentally capable individuals with the ability to comprehend most things. Is this lack of understanding frustrating you? Could you please explain why this is? Is it because you feel that we are intentionally misunderstanding what is being said? I can assure you that I'm not. Is it because you are having difficulty explaining this coherently? Is it because we are holding up a mirror and showing you something you don't like? How now, is this dialog leading to us "duplicating their final steps"?

I'm not whining, I'm asking in my most civil and polite tone as I can for some clarity. I've tried to make the case where I feel that this is affecting other MacNN members beyond Turtle and myself as well, and I've tried to illustrate how I perceive some of these larger problems. So far, nobody has addressed this head-on, this is starting to feel like a conversation with Abe.

Please, I can understand how this can be frustrating... Believe me, I do, but there is no need to be insulting. I'm not trying to insult you, so why insult me?
     
subego
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May 21, 2008, 04:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
This should be common sense. It's hard to put all this into a short, simple to understand rule, though.

"With the exception of obvious abuses such as sockpuppetry and ban-evasion we are generally open to allowing multiple nicknames, though reserve the right to assess each instance on a case by case basis (turtle). If in doubt, ask first. Information on how to contact the staff while banned without creating a new nickname is here."

I'm too lazy to put in links.
     
reader50
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May 21, 2008, 04:40 PM
 
besson, we try not to complicate the rules with edge cases. There is the old adage that safety rules are more likely to be read the shorter & simpler they are.

Spelling out exactly how we handle temp bans is not a good use of space in the rules. It would perhaps double their length, and cover conditions that affect a negligible number of users. Temp bans are very rare, the only one currently in effect is the one I just put on my test handle for ... well, a script test.

So for practical reasons, it's left under the mod/admin final-say part, and not explicitly spelled out. Usually, we figure it's obvious to the user what caused the temp ban, especially when it happens to experienced users.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 21, 2008, 04:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
besson, we try not to complicate the rules with edge cases. There is the old adage that safety rules are more likely to be read the shorter & simpler they are.

Spelling out exactly how we handle temp bans is not a good use of space in the rules. It would perhaps double their length, and cover conditions that affect a negligible number of users. Temp bans are very rare, the only one currently in effect is the one I just put on my test handle for ... well, a script test.

So for practical reasons, it's left under the mod/admin final-say part, and not explicitly spelled out. Usually, we figure it's obvious to the user what caused the temp ban, especially when it happens to experienced users.

Thanks for this explanation Reader50, but I think you might be conflating Turtle's issues with mine... Sorry for my not making this distinction.

I was taking my test case of Butthawk in asking why a simple request to cease the attempt of humor at asking for social security numbers wasn't met with some basic communication rather than two separate bans? I was using this case in an attempt to illuminate on a larger problem of rule rigidity and technicalities replacing proper context and consideration. If you want to put this specific case under the microscope, you might be able to make the case that I wasn't breaking any rules, but I'm moreso curious as to the rationale behind needing to outlaw our lounging as has been done thus far? Since MacOSNerd agrees that I've made this point clear, I won't repeat myself here...

Again, this began as an attempt at a conversation pertaining to how we can improve this forum, not a whine/bitch fest.
     
Randman
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May 21, 2008, 06:00 PM
 

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rickey939
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May 21, 2008, 06:48 PM
 
This thread is still open?
     
MacosNerd
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May 21, 2008, 07:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by rickey939 View Post
This thread is still open?
That's because
Besson is
     
reader50
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May 21, 2008, 07:52 PM
 
It's within the rules, and Feedback is for, well, feedback.

Butthawk was obviously a joke/troll handle for an existing member. It annoyed some, and when it went too far, it was banned. Communication did not seem required, and the primary handle was left be at that point. We would do much the same to April Fools handles if they continued to be used on April 2. Like those upside-down handles, or others meant to impersonate famous Lounge members.

I have indeed been working to improve the forums, by addressing another long-standing complaint. The inability to tell when a temp ban will expire. Unfortunately, there was no one temp banned to test it on. So my test handle volunteered for a 1-week temp ban, to check my latest stars script. That was very understanding of him.

I think the script is debugged, but you never find that out for sure until it's in production, with a range of real values. Could anyone volunteer a handle for temp-banning?
     
rickey939
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cooperstown '09
Status: Offline
May 21, 2008, 07:53 PM
 
Temp-ban "ankle_brains"....
     
 
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