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Improving this forum (Page 5)
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Laminar
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May 27, 2008, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Then we ignore this individual or do something to sort of push him/her aside...
Unfortunately, this hasn't worked on you yet.
     
peeb
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May 27, 2008, 08:39 PM
 
This is precisely the problem - the person who you see as a problem also sees you as a problem.
     
MacosNerd
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May 27, 2008, 08:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by peeb View Post
This is precisely the problem - the person who you see as a problem also sees you as a problem.
Its funny how that works
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 27, 2008, 09:16 PM
 
The point is, you don't need the forum ban mechanism to push somebody aside. Laminar is free to ignore me, scorn me, force me to defend my opinions, many of which I already do. If he wants to exclude me from conversation, he can start his My Little Pony thread that I will ignore cause I'm not interested in that stuff.

Trying to solve these sorts of territorial/top dog/personality conflict/grudge problems by tweaking the rules is sort of like trying to alter driving laws because you don't like the way somebody drives. I can guarantee Laminar that the rules will never be perfect regardless of whether I or others that he dislikes exist or not. It is pointless trying.

If you're a politician trying to get elected it's a similar sort of thing - you cannot get everybody to agree with you and want to vote for you, but you can set a tone. We need to work on establishing a new tone here, I think it has become far too bickery and rule obsessed. For where personal blame is due, I fully accept it.
     
rickey939
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May 27, 2008, 09:32 PM
 
I remember this thread.
     
MacosNerd
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May 27, 2008, 09:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
The point is, you don't need the forum ban mechanism to push somebody aside.
i disagree and I think I have history on my side for this. Just look at some of the diatribes that ca$h has thrown, or Kevin. There is behavior that cannot be tolerated and banning people is the only real leverage a mod has.

Also we live in a society with rules, both explicit and implicit, without rules there would be chaos. Leaving it up to one's individual's common sense is not sufficient especially when people's moral fiber is suspect. The same goes for forum life. Without rules the place would quickly degenerate into chaos.
     
turtle777
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May 27, 2008, 09:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacosNerd View Post
i disagree and I think I have history on my side for this. Just look at some of the diatribes that ca$h has thrown, or Kevin. There is behavior that cannot be tolerated and banning people is the only real leverage a mod has.
Yes and no, besson is right in principle.

The problem is that we (members) are NOT capable of ignoring renegades. We get too easily baited.

The mods need to intervene to protect us from ourselves and our inability to "ignore" and / or "tolerate".

To put it short: besson, I think most members (incl. me) are too immature to handle are truly self-regulating environment like you describe it.

-t
     
turtle777
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May 27, 2008, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by rickey939 View Post
I remember this thread.
Are you the guy who has the balls...










... to show up and then not contribute ?

-t
     
Randman
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May 27, 2008, 09:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
The problem is that we (members) are NOT capable of ignoring renegades. We get too easily baited.

The mods need to intervene to protect us from ourselves and our inability to "ignore" and / or "tolerate".

To put it short: besson, I think most members (incl. me) are too immature to handle are truly self-regulating environment like you describe it.
Hence, the usefulness of bans. The people who get banned from time to time know it and encourage it, even if not openly. You can push a lot of things on these forums without getting the banhammer.

IMO, crying about it is just another way of seeking attention.

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Laminar
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May 27, 2008, 10:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Trying to solve these sorts of territorial/top dog/personality conflict/grudge problems by tweaking the rules is sort of like trying to alter driving laws because you don't like the way somebody drives. I can guarantee Laminar that the rules will never be perfect regardless of whether I or others that he dislikes exist or not. It is pointless trying.
Here's what I think. The VAST majority of MacNN posters are 99.9% okay with whatever rules are being enforced. There seem to be a tiny handful of people perpetually discontent with the rules, mods, enforcement, etc.

In light of this, I've created Laminar's Official Rules for Coping with the Inescapable Atrocities of MacNN:

Rule #1: Deal with it.

Um...that's about it. It's worked for me for 7 years. It works for everyone else as well.
     
Railroader
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May 27, 2008, 10:53 PM
 
One way to improve this forum is to have less threads like this.

Sheesh, what a bunch of whiners.
     
greene_hornette
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May 27, 2008, 11:15 PM
 
:d

...
     
subego
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May 28, 2008, 07:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Sheesh, what a bunch of whiners.

No irony there.
     
Eug
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May 28, 2008, 08:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Here's what I think. The VAST majority of MacNN posters are 99.9% okay with whatever rules are being enforced. There seem to be a tiny handful of people perpetually discontent with the rules, mods, enforcement, etc.

In light of this, I've created Laminar's Official Rules for Coping with the Inescapable Atrocities of MacNN:

Rule #1: Deal with it.

Um...that's about it. It's worked for me for 7 years. It works for everyone else as well.
Sounds about right.

However, since some are asking... Personally, I might even prefer having more severe rules here at MacNN on language and behaviour (depending upon what "more severe rules" actually means of course though).

And yes I'm serious.
     
Railroader
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May 28, 2008, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
No irony there.
Thanks for the example.
     
starman
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May 28, 2008, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Sounds about right.

However, since some are asking... Personally, I might even prefer having more severe rules here at MacNN on language and behaviour (depending upon what "more severe rules" actually means of course though).

And yes I'm serious.
What do you define as "more severe" and under what circumstances? A one-month ban for saying "damn"?

I'm very confused by what you want.

Home - Twitter - Sig Wall-Retired - Flickr
     
Randman
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May 28, 2008, 03:54 PM
 
He's saying if you're just being stupid, you get a small vacation. As your being a dick increases, so does the length of the ban.

I'd add that arguing/whining/complaining about a ban should double the time. People can be jerks without crossing the line.

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peeb
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May 28, 2008, 04:07 PM
 
The trouble is that there is no consensus on what 'being a dick' is. The likelihood is that the person who you are accusing of being a dick thinks you are being a dick.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 28, 2008, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Randman View Post
He's saying if you're just being stupid, you get a small vacation. As your being a dick increases, so does the length of the ban.

I'd add that arguing/whining/complaining about a ban should double the time. People can be jerks without crossing the line.
The problem with this is that my trying to invoke a genuine and civil discussion about bans and the rules gets interpreted as me whining (even though the discussion occurred several months after the incident), despite my best efforts.

Again, we come full circle: we are not going to find perfection in any rules.
     
MacosNerd
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May 28, 2008, 04:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Again, we come full circle: we are not going to find perfection in any rules.
Not when the rules were created by imperfect people.

As I said in the past, I think 'NN has a pretty good balance going with regard to the rules and moderation of the forums
     
Chuckit
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May 28, 2008, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Again, we come full circle: we are not going to find perfection in any rules.
Probably, but we're closer than we would be with no rules.

If you're here to argue that we should totally eliminate our community standards, it's not going to be very productive. Nobody wants that. If you have a particular rule that concerns you, feel free to bring it up. But we're pretty sold on the general idea of having standards.
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
Dakar the Fourth
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May 28, 2008, 05:02 PM
 
Ha, I asked besson for specifics on page 1. Good luck.
     
Railroader
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May 29, 2008, 12:31 AM
 
Like nailing jello to the wall.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 29, 2008, 12:41 AM
 
What specifics do you guys need? I want to essentially get rid of all rules in the lounge except for the absolute necessities (no porn, spam, etc.), I think I've made this abundantly clear. Chuckit says that he feels that there is not enough demand or interest in doing away with "community standards" (which I guess means the status quo), so there isn't much more to be said.
     
Randman
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May 29, 2008, 01:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What specifics do you guys need? I want to essentially get rid of all rules in the lounge except for the absolute necessities (no porn, spam, etc.),.
I doubt people, a handful at least, could control themselves. Just start an ichat group for unrestrained chat.

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MacosNerd
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May 29, 2008, 07:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Randman View Post
I doubt people, a handful at least, could control themselves. Just start an ichat group for unrestrained chat.
Really if some folks are having issues in the lounge with rules how quickly do you think it will degrade into chaos with no rules.
     
Eug
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May 29, 2008, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Randman View Post
He's saying if you're just being stupid, you get a small vacation. As your being a dick increases, so does the length of the ban.

I'd add that arguing/whining/complaining about a ban should double the time.
Sounds about right.

In any case, I've been on forums where such dickness as seen daily on the PoliWar forum is not tolerated at all. Do it once and you're warned, and do it twice and you're banned. Do it again and you're permabanned. I can tell you, the discussion in those types of forums is a lot more civil. However, some of you here might find it boring.

P.S. Some sites don't tolerate any bad language either. The word "dickness" would not be acceptable. I'm more ambivalent on that though. I'm usually more concerned about the general behaviour of forum posters than individual words, but it can sometimes still be a concern, depending on how and when certain words are used.
( Last edited by Eug; May 29, 2008 at 09:16 AM. )
     
Atomic Rooster
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May 30, 2008, 08:36 PM
 
"I think the script is debugged, but you never find that out for sure until it's in production, with a range of real values. Could anyone volunteer a handle for temp-banning?"

-Reader50

I just wanna tell everyone that the script worked OK with the temp banning I volunteered for. I needed a break anyway so I made a good candidate.

But I never realized it would be for the whole forum. Temp bans should be for the particular forum that an infraction was made in. That was my feedback.
     
turtle777
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May 31, 2008, 12:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
But I never realized it would be for the whole forum. Temp bans should be for the particular forum that an infraction was made in. That was my feedback.
Haha, you bannination n00b.

Temp bans have always been for the entire forum.

Heck, you are ban-evading if you just use PMs while being temp-banned.

-t
     
Laminar
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May 31, 2008, 12:51 AM
 
More whining! What a surprise!
     
turtle777
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May 31, 2008, 12:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
More whining! What a surprise!
Aren't we all glad that you are no broken record

-t
     
Randman
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May 31, 2008, 01:21 AM
 
I smell a lock coming on.

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turtle777
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May 31, 2008, 01:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Randman View Post
I smell a lock coming on.
You farted ?

-t
     
Randman
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May 31, 2008, 01:25 AM
 
No, but this thread has started to reek.

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Railroader
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May 31, 2008, 01:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Aren't we all glad that you are no broken record

-t
Only in amara... ?
     
Face Ache
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May 31, 2008, 03:14 AM
 
A Tale.

In the beginning there was the 'NN Lounge and it was good. Clever, witty, thoughtful and/or unstable personalities joined, attracting more of the same. Anarchy ruled. Threads were often hijacked and flown to Cuba at 3am. Mods would gently chastise the "naughty" natives.

Then America voted a monkey as their president and all hell broke loose.

The Lounge lit up with 70% political threads and lo, the Political Luge was born. This, in turn, attracted (mostly right-wing) trolls who shared little in common with the former Lounge natives. Many of these trolls didn't even own Macs - this was just a good place for an interweb fight. Poo was flung in both directions. The smell became intolerable. Many natives left to seek out new lands.

Around this time both airport security screeners and Lounge moderators became overzealous in their jobs. In an effort to prevent the poo flinging, custard pie flingers were also caught up in the moderation/security net. Serious moderators were flown in from Guantanamo to teach forum "compliance techniques". Those guys didn't **** around. More natives left. This was taken as a sign that heavier moderation was required. Members started "disappearing" on midnight flights to Bannonia. Even questioning the disappearances got you placed on a "watch" list.

Throughout all of this the boring, mediocre members were saying "Well I've never had a problem", but everyone continued to ignore them.

Eventually the old days became folklore, tales of which are now handed down to successive generations of new Lounge members. They speak of reviving the old ways, of Lounge "freedom", but they know nothing of Jarvis and the way of the cabbage. The old timers know that you cannot return to the past.

But somewhere, out there on the interwebs, clandestine groups of the old tribe still huddle, safe from Lounge moderators, and speak in the ancient tongue. There are reports of mysterious cabbage crop circles.

No, Jarvis shall not be forgotten. And maybe, just maybe, he shall one day rise again!
     
peeb
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May 31, 2008, 03:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
This, in turn, attracted (mostly right-wing) trolls who shared little in common with the former Lounge natives. Many of these trolls didn't even own Macs
As an aside, why are there so many right-wing trolls in the PL? That's a serious question, I have never encountered such a concentration of rabid right-wing fanatics. I use that phrase not as an insult, but as the fairest and most accurate description I can come up with for them.

It's a serious question.
     
Randman
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May 31, 2008, 03:18 AM
 
I think people in the RL would argue with a barn door.

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Demonhood
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May 31, 2008, 04:48 AM
 
barn doors have a well known liberal bias.
     
 
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