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Higuchem · Jan 13, 2006, 09:41 AM

PCmag wrote an article about the latest version of Itues is feeding back information back to apples main network. Do you all think apple will slowly abuse its it power until they do something stupid like Sony did?

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1910646,00.asp

Horsepoo!!! · Jan 13, 2006, 09:43 AM

iTunes is spying on you specifically. Oh...and Apple hates you.

Maflynn · Jan 13, 2006, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Higuchem

PCmag wrote an article about the latest version of Itues is feeding back information back to apples main network.

Ignore Horsepoo, he fails to answer anything intelligently.

In order to provide "targeted" album advertising they need to see what your playing. At this stage I wonder how big of a deal it is for many people. Just look at the popularity of google mail. They themselves read your emails to provide targeted advertising yet many people flocked to it.

I for one do not like "big brother" looking at what I do, be it sony, apple or microsoft, unfortunately in this day and age we are more frequently under the microscope.

Mike

Simon · Jan 13, 2006, 09:59 AM

Hide the MiniStore. That will stop the spy reports.

Horsepoo!!! · Jan 13, 2006, 10:15 AM

As per Maflynn's hurtful request to answer intelligently, here's my intelligent response:

This thread ain't in the right forum.

Horsepoo!!! · Jan 13, 2006, 10:15 AM

Always good to be skeptical of 1-post users using flame-bait titles with wrong capitalizations and posted in the wrong thread and considering this stuff was answered in a thread that *was* posted in the right forum.

Just a word of advice, Maflynn buddy. Thought you may have known that considering how long you've been on this board.

OreoCookie · Jan 13, 2006, 10:47 AM

Well, I have read the same thing on several well-respected websites (heise.de, theregister, theinquirer), so there seems to be some truth to it.

Simon · Jan 13, 2006, 10:49 AM

There's certainly some truth to it. But there's a remedy too.

Just hide the MiniStore and the spying will stop.

TETENAL · Jan 13, 2006, 11:12 AM

There are two problems:

1.) Apple does this without your consent. The feature is on by default and it might be difficult to turn off for many people.

2.) Apple does not provide a privacy statement. You trust Apple that no information is collected and the information is only used to provide targeted advertisement, but without a formal written privacy statement we don't know whether that is true and it can change at will. Maybe one day some record label will pay Apple good money for such information, maybe some day a law enforcement agency wants access to the data to search for suspicious file names. We don't know how Apple will react.

ShotgunEd · Jan 13, 2006, 11:12 AM

Theres also a whole topic discussing this very issue down the page slightly.

Maflynn · Jan 13, 2006, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

As per Maflynn's hurtful request to answer intelligently, here's my intelligent response:

This thread ain't in the right forum.

Since when isn't iTunes not an application?

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 13, 2006, 02:11 PM

The MiniStore is meant to be a "feature" of iTunes by showing you links to songs in the iTMS by the artist or related artists/songs of the songs you are listening to. Frankly, who cares if Apple "knows" you are listening to a certain artist/song? Take off your tin foil hats and just TURN IT OFF.

Edit > Hide MiniStore

Done.

Maflynn · Jan 13, 2006, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

Frankly, who cares if Apple "knows" you are listening to a certain artist/song? Take off your tin foil hats and just TURN IT OFF.

Well I don't want to belittle the situation because its the small foxes that spoil the vine. We are not (generally) losing our freedoms and privacy in huges swaths but in small easy to swallow bites.

Microsoft, with its activation (proving we are not thieves)
gmail - google reading our emails
apple - recording what we listen too.

When will the lose of our privacy be something that you and others care about. Look how easy it was for the current administration to justify spying on Americans w/o a warrent. 20 or 10 years ago this would have be grounds for impeachment. Now, its being "debated" when clearly its illegal.

Mike

SirCastor · Jan 14, 2006, 12:49 PM

I'd bet 5 to 1 (I'm not a betting man though) that it's done entirely with your consent mentioned in the EULA that you (like all the rest of us) read before we agreed to using the software.

JLL · Jan 14, 2006, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Maflynn

Well I don't want to belittle the situation because its the small foxes that spoil the vine. We are not (generally) losing our freedoms and privacy in huges swaths but in small easy to swallow bites.

Microsoft, with its activation (proving we are not thieves)
gmail - google reading our emails
apple - recording what we listen too.

Google isn't reading your mail and Apple doesn't record what you listen to (it's only what you click on, not what you listen to btw.).

Both adsense ads and iTunes' targeted music store recommendations are made on-the-fly by making rather simple searches.

But be my guest - don't ever rent a movie, borrow a book, buy a plane ticket, make a phone call and so on, and so on.

:dragonflypro: · Jan 14, 2006, 02:01 PM

Keyword generated display contents is not the same as spying.

The term is being severely misused.

Spying collects and analyzes data on you specifically and often shares your information in nefarious ways

iTunes is displaying predefined content based on the artists, album or track. The information is not tracked or tied to you in any specific fashion.

Anyone having issues with this sort of content generation should NEVER visit amazon or buy ANYTHING on ebay. Though they to are harmless, theirs is much more detailed in nature.

The thrust of this is that some people want to be offended or play the victim, this is an entrance to that part.

Yes, maybe they should have had a pop-up warning… but short of that this all seems a lot of hot air.

T

His Dudeness · Jan 14, 2006, 05:42 PM

Finally, a voice of reason.

Scooterboy · Jan 15, 2006, 12:35 AM

I don't want Apple or anyone keeping tracking my listening habits. There is no way we can verify what Apple is really doing with the tracking of our use of iTunes. I don't trust them.

I find the mini store to be a crass and intrusive form of marketing, something that is all too pervasive in our society. You can't go anywhere without some sort of advertising being shoved in your face or your ears, and seeing iTunes do it runs counter to everything I believed about how Apple treats its users.

I don't care that I can hide the mini store, I want to deactivate it entirely. I want that mini-store button to disappear. I've already hit once by accident when trying to activate the EQ. Is there any way to go back to iTunes 6.0.1?

SirCastor · Jan 15, 2006, 03:01 AM

Sorry Scooterboy, but I can't help but say, you're just being a little paranoid about the whole thing. We can't verify anything about what any company says. Sometimes we just have to say "oh well" and take it as the cost of using a superior product.

When the ministore is hidden, it does not send any information. You can disable the ministore completely, but there's a cost to it. You disable the Music Store all together.
Apple KB
Macworld Article about it.

Scooterboy · Jan 15, 2006, 04:18 AM

I would rather simply go back to iTunes 6.0.1. I'd like to keep the iTMS links so I can still browse when I want to browse, and search when I want to search. Privacy is too valuable to me to give up just to use the latest version of iTunes. I don't like the idea of anyone, including Apple, being able to log or keep track of my actions, any actions, on my computer, even something so trivial as what I'm clicking on in my iTunes library. I want to disable that capability. I don't care if I can turn it off by hiding the mini store. If I had know of this feature before updating, I wouldn't have updated. Apple slid this adware in behind my back, so to speak, and for that I want it off my computer.

I downloaded iTunes 6.0 but the installer will not install over the newer version.
I switched to Apple partly because this is the kind of behavior I deplored in Windows.

Simon · Jan 15, 2006, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by Scooterboy

I don't care that I can hide the mini store, I want to deactivate it entirely.

For all practical purposes hiding it is deactivating it.

I understand your concern with ads/marketing/spying, but I think you rather get worried in cases where you have no other option (video surveillance in public areas for example) than in those situations where you have a choice. Apple is giving us this choice. That's good.

Scooterboy · Jan 15, 2006, 04:26 AM

Video surveillance of a public area is one thing, surveillance of my private computer is another thing entirely. To make your analogy valid it would require the video surveillance camera to be installed inside your house. And even if you could turn it off, it would still be there.

Simon · Jan 15, 2006, 04:36 AM

The point I was trying to make is that I have no choice other than let the police tape me on my way to the subway. There is no way of turning off the cameras when I pass them. Apple OTOH is giving us a simple way to turn off the surveillance. That's why I think it doesn't make sense to get all worked up about it. There are enough situations where you have no choice at all - those are the ones that need our attention IMHO.

Simon · Jan 15, 2006, 04:38 AM

And if you're worried that Apple is spying behind your back even when you turn off the MiniStore, well lean back because there's LittleSnitch.

Scooterboy · Jan 15, 2006, 05:01 AM

I already installed LittlSnitch due to this fiasco, but thank you for the link anyhow. Simon, I appreciate what you are saying. However, even though I can turn off the MiniStore, it's still there. It's like the police cameras in your example, except it's in my private property. If the police cameras were installed in your home, in your living room or bedroom, and you had the option to turn them off, would you feel secure? Private? Or would you want them removed?

Simon · Jan 15, 2006, 05:29 AM

LittleSnitch gives me the power to check if it's really off. It is. That's good enough for me.

kman42 · Jan 18, 2006, 11:39 AM

Problem solved.

ShotgunEd · Jan 18, 2006, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Scooterboy

I already installed LittlSnitch due to this fiasco, but thank you for the link anyhow. Simon, I appreciate what you are saying. However, even though I can turn off the MiniStore, it's still there. It's like the police cameras in your example, except it's in my private property. If the police cameras were installed in your home, in your living room or bedroom, and you had the option to turn them off, would you feel secure? Private? Or would you want them removed?

Adaware ads are spying on you too.

Do you really want people to know what forum topics you are reading?

Why wasn't there a disclaimer?

OMFG I'm going back to MacNN 1.0

lou91940 · Jan 18, 2006, 05:33 PM

I have a very eclectic music collection by a really diverse bunch of musicians on my comp. and I rather like the iTunes addition. I'm thinking it might be helpful to find some music I might not be aware of. However I do think Apple might have been more clear at the very first install as to the nature of the addition. That said, a little bit of paranoia is good but I just can't see Apple pulling something as underhanded as Sony or some others. Given the passionate and sometime zealous nature of Mac user for "our" platform it just couldn't remain secret or viable for Apple to try that sort of dishonesty without losing the business, trust and support of it's user base. We use Macs because we want to not because we have to.

Scooterboy · Jan 23, 2006, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by ShotgunEd

Adaware ads are spying on you too.

Do you really want people to know what forum topics you are reading?

Why wasn't there a disclaimer?

OMFG I'm going back to MacNN 1.0

You don't get it, do you? A website is different from a local application running on my Mac. If I surf to an external (not local on my Mac) website, I expect the website may collect browsing statisics, etc., relating to what I do on on said website. I gave MacNN permission to do that when I registered. MacNN is a website, not an application that I installed on my Mac. I don't expect MacNN to dig out my unique AppleID from my Mac and send that along with my listeneing habits to Omniture, something that iTunes did without my permission or knowledge. I value my privacy. What I read or post as Scooterboy on MacNN is just that: public statements made by a public persona made up to post here on MacNN. What I do on my Mac I expect to remain private, whether it's what I write in Word, the pictures I take on my camera and download to my Mac, or what music or podcasts I listen to our watch on my Mac. iTunes has taken information about my private use of my Mac and sent that along with my AppleID to themselves and to Omniture, a marketing firm. This is a breach of trust that I cannot and will not forgive. I have since de-authorized the iTMS and will no longer purchase music from Apple (which I admit I previously did out of laziness and impatience, as a physical CD is "uncompressed" and non-lossy, and I have the physical media as backups, not to mention all of the artwork for a given release). My local independent record stores stock a far more diverse and vast selection of music than the iTMS and I feel better knowning that part of the money I spend on music is going into my local economy and not out to Cupertino to be used to aim yet more marketing at me.

Chuckit · Jan 23, 2006, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Scooterboy

You don't get it, do you? A website is different from a local application running on my Mac.

Safari and iTunes both run locally on your Mac.

Simon · Jan 23, 2006, 02:01 AM

I think that was exactly the point Scooterboy was trying to make.

Chuckit · Jan 23, 2006, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

I think that was exactly the point Scooterboy was trying to make.

So when he said "a Web site is different from a local application running on my Mac," he meant to say "a Web site is part of a local application running on my Mac just as much as iTMS running in iTunes is"?

Simon · 03:39 AM

I think he is trying to point out a difference between being spied on by a remote website you go to (and where he expects to be spied on) compared to a local app running on your own Mac which he doesn't want spying on him.

However, IIRC using the iTMS in iTunes is actually just browsing a website - iTunes is a browser in that sense. The store pages have URLs and the content (which I assume is HTML too) gets rendered by iTunes just as any other HTML gets rendered by Safari.

Tsilou B. · Jan 23, 2006, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Safari and iTunes both run locally on your Mac.

The difference is that Safari blocks all attempts by websites to collect data from your Mac. If let's say MacNN would be interested in my AppleID or in the music I own, there would be no way for them to retrieve it. If they COULD get this information about me, there would be a unbelievable security vulnerability in Safari and it would get patched immediately.

iTunes, however, as a local application, HAS access to my music, my AppleID, and if it would like to spy on my e-mails or my private photos for some reason, it could do so at any time. That's why I have to trust in iTunes and that's why it's really a bad thing that iTunes sent information to Apple without asking and that's Scooterboy's point.

Fortunately, Apple fixed it quickly and now the MiniStore does no longer operate even when its window is displayed. I have to explicitly allow it to send information to Apple and I believe that Apple has learned from this incident and unlike Scooterboy, I'll forgive them this time, however, they better not do something like this again.

Tsilou B. · Jan 23, 2006, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Tsilou B.

The difference is that Safari blocks all attempts by websites to collect data from your Mac. If let's say MacNN would be interested in my AppleID or in the music I own, there would be no way for them to retrieve it. If they COULD get this information about me, there would be a unbelievable security vulnerability in Safari and it would get patched immediately.

Of course I know that websites can spy on me by using cookies, tracking IP addresses etc. But that's the only thing they can do: Spy on my web usage patterns. They can NEVER get access to the data I store on my Mac.

Catfish_Man · Jan 23, 2006, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

I think he is trying to point out a difference between being spied on by a remote website you go to (and where he expects to be spied on) compared to a local app running on your own Mac which he doesn't want spying on him.

However, IIRC using the iTMS in iTunes is actually just browsing a website - iTunes is a browser in that sense. The store pages have URLs and the content (which I assume is HTML too) gets rendered by iTunes just as any other HTML gets rendered by Safari.

The store pages are a custom XML, actually, but the principle is the same.

ShotgunEd · Jan 23, 2006, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Scooterboy

You don't get it, do you? A website is different from a local application running on my Mac.

I do get it.

My comments in the other hundred topics about this very feature stated that I don't think Apple were correct in not notifying users this was happening on first run of the new version.

This has since been resolved.

And as for

I don't expect MacNN to dig out my unique AppleID from my Mac and send that along with my listeneing habits to Omniture, something that iTunes did without my permission or knowledge.

Do you have a source for this info? I haven't read that AppleIDs were being sent, nor heard of Omniture.

Spirit_VW · Jan 23, 2006, 06:28 PM

It amazes me how quickly things get blown out of proportion.

The iTunes Mini Store isn't "tracking and recording your listening habits." When you click (not even listen) on a song, the Mini Store displays similar songs, artists, or albums, based on what you clicked. That's it. It's not tracking your habits, it's not recording what you listen to, it's just going "Song X was clicked, and here are Song Y and Song Z that are similar that you might not have heard of." That's it.

Should Apple have notified us when it was created with the latest update? Yes, absolutely. That's now been corrected - the Mini Store tells you what it is and makes you click a button to turn it on now the first time. Beyond that, it's very, very benign.

Scooterboy · Jan 23, 2006, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by ShotgunEd

Do you have a source for this info? I haven't read that AppleIDs were being sent, nor heard of Omniture.

Yes, I used Little Snitch which found the same information as that posted here.

Scooterboy · Jan 23, 2006, 07:09 PM

I like iTunes and I'll keep using it, without the Store. If I ever want to go to the iTMS, I'll activate it, shop, maybe purchase, then de-activate it. Just like going to the real music stores. I don't need a sales rep dropping by the house with a list of tunes I might like to buy, and I don't need Apple doing the same via iTunes.

ShotgunEd · Jan 24, 2006, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Scooterboy

Yes, I used Little Snitch which found the same information as that posted here.

Fair enough, search request data is being sent to Omniture to

measure usage of their[Apple's] Web sites and performance of their marketing campaigns

Nowhere does that article, or any that it links to, mention sending of AppleIDs.

For regular MP3s, it'll run a full text search to find related articles, for purchased music, it searches by the original product ID. Sample query string is:

Code:
/WebObjects/MZSearch.woa/wa/ministoreMatch?an=Daft% 20Punk&gn=Electronic&kind=song&pn=Discovery

The Product ID is not your AppleID. Its not sending any information about you.

robfarri · Jan 24, 2006, 11:44 AM

some people on here are so frickin' paranoid!