[zro]

I like "OK." It's akin to 0 or true. There's only one OK, and many not OK. Is what the dialog contains OK or not OK? The not OK buttons are the ones that need descriptive labels.

I never use window resize widgets. Never have. iPhoto is the only app I use full screen, but I only use it fullscreen so I still wouldn't use the button if it did fullscreen.

There should be a tooltips option for all the window control widgets, though.

[mdc]

This reminds me of this folklore.org story.

When the software required confirmation from the user, it displayed a small window called a "dialog box", that contained a question, and presented two buttons, for positive or negative confirmation. The buttons were labeled "Do It" and "Cancel". The designers observed that a few users seemed to stumble at the point that the dialog was displayed, clicking "Cancel" when they should have clicked "Do It", but it wasn't clear what they were having trouble with.

Finally, the team noticed one user that was particularly flummoxed by the dialog box, who even seemed to be getting a bit angry. The moderator interrupted the test and asked him what the problem was. He replied, "I'm not a dolt, why is the software calling me a dolt?"

It turns out he wasn't noticing the space between the 'o' and the 'I' in 'Do It'; in the sans-serif system font we were using, a capital 'I' looked very much like a lower case 'l', so he was reading 'Do It' as 'Dolt' and was therefore kind of offended.

After a bit of consideration, we switched the positive confirmation button label to 'OK' (which was initially avoided, because we thought it was too colloquial), and from that point on people seemed to have fewer problems.

[.Neo]

Not to mention that "OK" is universal in most (western) languages.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

What would you suggest the default button for this dialog box, which only dismisses the dialog, be named?[/img]

You answered your own question - it should be named Dismiss.

Fair enough for dialogues that only have one button, but for anything else OK is completely ambiguous and should not be used (is it OK to delete/remove/cancel/ignore this thing or OK to not do any of that?).

Mail also has a dialogue with Yes No Cancel which is even more cringe worthy.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I had a long response typed out to this, and the server ate it, so I'm instead just going to dare you to find an example of one application where an error box of this type:



has a default button labeled "Dismiss" or "Do Nothing."

Why? That dialog box has a single button...it could say "Delete Hard Drive" for all I care...no matter what it says on it, you have to push it to dismiss the dialog box. There's no choice involved.

I'm talking about dialog windows where choices are involved. When there is more than one button to choose from you have to word things correctly or users might push the wrong button because they didn't grasp the meaning correctly.

Ok and Cancel could mean the same thing to someone. There are several cases in Windows where "Ok" and "Cancel" do the same thing...they simply dismiss the dialog box. This won't harm the user but it certainly is confusing to have two options that perform the same action and will harm the user once he gets presented with a dialog box that have "Ok" and "Cancel" buttons that DO perform different actions.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Not to mention that "OK" is universal in most (western) languages.

And universally, "OK" has no precise meaning. It's an ambiguous word that can mean several things. It's especially confusing when "OK" actually performs an action or when it's just used to acknowledge and dismiss a dialog box. In one instance you're giving the OK to an action and in the other you're giving an OK that you've read the message. If the message in the dialog box is also poorly worded, how do you know you're not performing an action you'll regret?

Are you sure you don't want to erase the entire contents of your hard drive? [OK] [Cancel]

Pick one...scary isn't it. In general, you'll never see such a poorly worded dialog especially one that warns you about being sure to not delete something but you get the picture.

Are you sure you don't want to erase the entire contents of your hard drive? [Erase] [Don't erase]

Less scary.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

And universally, "OK" has no precise meaning. It's an ambiguous word that can mean several things. It's especially confusing when "OK" actually performs an action or when it's just used to acknowledge and dismiss a dialog box. In one instance you're giving the OK to an action and in the other you're giving an OK that you've read the message. If the message in the dialog box is also poorly worded, how do you know you're not performing an action you'll regret?

In most cases it's a positive confirmation. Regardless if you confirm that you want to dismiss a dialogue window or if you are sure you want to move something to the Trash.

There is no "just pick one" involved here. You know that OK is a positive confirmation: OK, I want to erase the entire contents of my HD.
And Cancel: Hell no, cancel! I don't want to erase the entire contents of my HD.

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Ok and Cancel could mean the same thing to someone. There are several cases in Windows where "Ok" and "Cancel" do the same thing...they simply dismiss the dialog box. This won't harm the user but it certainly is confusing to have two options that perform the same action and will harm the user once he gets presented with a dialog box that have "Ok" and "Cancel" buttons that DO perform different actions.

Why do you keep involving Microsoft Windows in this? On Mac OS X [OK] is always a positive confirmation ranging from "OK, I've read the dialog box" to "OK, I want to secure empty the trash".

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by JKT 

You answered your own question - it should be named Dismiss.

Already addressed that one - and I guarantee if you did that, you'd get users asking you what the hell "Dismiss" means. Computer people know that "Dismiss" means to close a window, but novice users aren't necessarily in the know about the jargon. Plus, a "Dismiss" button would be the first dialog box button in history that actually described an action to be performed not on the file you're working with, but on the dialog box window itself. And performing an action that it's automatically assumed that a dialog box button will do anyway. Do you see buttons in other dialog boxes labeled things like "Dismiss & Save", "Dismiss & Don't Save", etc.? The dialog box doesn't "exist" in terms of a potential object for actions - it is only a temporary vehicle to bring a message to your attention and which disappears as soon as you've responded to it, nothing more. If I see a "Dismiss" button, it is assumed that this is some sort of action that will be performed on the file I'm working on. What does it mean to "dismiss" a file? Is that something scary? Should I pull out the power cord on my Mac to avoid pushing it?

There's a reason there isn't a single application in the world that labels an informational dialog box this way (well, I take that back - there's probably a couple of Windows apps somewhere).

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Why? That dialog box has a single button...it could say "Delete Hard Drive" for all I care...no matter what it says on it, you have to push it to dismiss the dialog box. There's no choice involved.

I'm talking about dialog windows where choices are involved. When there is more than one button to choose from you have to word things correctly or users might push the wrong button because they didn't grasp the meaning correctly.

Then why did you reply to my post? My whole post was about informational dialog boxes, an exception to the general case. I was pointing out a problem with the rather fundamentalist statement that no app should ever have a single button labeled OK under any circumstances, and if it does, the developer "should be shot."

[Spirit_VW]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

There is no "just pick one" involved here. You know that OK is a positive confirmation: OK, I want to erase the entire contents of my HD.
And Cancel: Hell no, cancel! I don't want to erase the entire contents of my HD.

</lurk>

See, though, you just confirmed how dangerous that is - because you didn't read the actual wording of the dialog and just skipped to what you thought the buttons would do, you might have just erased your drive:

"Are you sure you don't want to erase the entire contents of your hard drive?"

(emphasis mine)

Now, tell me you feel safe picking "OK." OK, I'm not sure, erase the drive? OK, I'm sure, don't erase the drive?

Whereas with "Erase" and "Don't Erase," you have no ambiguity. You know exactly what will happen, no matter which button you choose.

<lurk>

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Spirit_VW 

</lurk>

See, though, you just confirmed how dangerous that is - because you didn't read the actual wording of the dialog and just skipped to what you thought the buttons would do, you might have just erased your drive:

"Are you sure you don't want to erase the entire contents of your hard drive?"

(emphasis mine)

Now, tell me you feel safe picking "OK." OK, I'm not sure, erase the drive? OK, I'm sure, don't erase the drive?

Whereas with "Erase" and "Don't Erase," you have no ambiguity. You know exactly what will happen, no matter which button you choose.

<lurk>

If you don't read those dialog windows you don't know what and where you're erasing in the first place. Which can be equally dangerous.

The combination of informative dialog windows and buttons is the trick. Although I really don't like the idea of replacing [OK] by [Dismiss].

[Spirit_VW]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

If you don't read those dialog windows you don't know what and where you're erasing in the first place. That can be equally dangerous.

So why does that excuse making the buttons dangerous? At least with "Erase" and "Don't Erase," you'll see them and go, "Wait a minute..." if you're not sure what's happening. Even in that case, they're still safer than "OK" and "Cancel," because you know what actions will result from their being chosen.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

In most cases it's a positive confirmation. Regardless if you confirm that you want to dismiss a dialogue window or if you are sure you want to move something to the Trash.

There is no "just pick one" involved here. You know that OK is a positive confirmation: OK, I want to erase the entire contents of my HD.
And Cancel: Hell no, cancel! I don't want to erase the entire contents of my HD.

If there are only one or two options to choose from [OK] and [Cancel] will suffice in most cases. Once you get three or more options presented additional information is required like: [Save], [Don't Save] and [Cancel].

You've just erased the contents of your hard drive.

"Are you sure you don't want to delete the entire contents of your hard drive?"

You just canceled *not* wanting to delete the entire contents of your hard drive...so the computer will go ahead an erase your hard drive.

The message was ambiguous and so were the buttons.

You thought 'Cancel' would cancel the action of deleting...but 'Cancel' in this case was canceling the action of *not* deleting.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Spirit_VW 

So why does that excuse making the buttons dangerous? At least with "Erase" and "Don't Erase," you'll see them and go, "Wait a minute..." if you're not sure what's happening. Even in that case, they're still safer than "OK" and "Cancel," because you know what actions will result from their being chosen.

Like I said, you shouldn't randomly push buttons in any case. People need to read the dialog.

Sadly a lot of people that don't bother to read the dialogs won't read those messages on buttons either. They just hit enter, confirming whatever button that's glowing blue. I for one seen it happen a lot.

[CharlesS]

See, I agree 100% on the Erase/Don't Erase situation where the buttons actually do something. If I saw a dialog box like the ones you guys are describing, I'd force-quit the app.

In fact, I remember seeing a screenshot of a real-life "Are you sure you want to cancel? OK/Cancel" type dialog box on Interface Hall of Shame or some similar site years ago, and I was looking for it to post in the thread, but I can't seem to find it anymore.

It's just that when there's no actual action assigned to the button and thus no "wrong button" to push, putting an action verb on it becomes silly.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Then why did you reply to my post? My whole post was about informational dialog boxes, an exception to the general case. I was pointing out a problem with the rather fundamentalist statement that no app should ever have a single button labeled OK under any circumstances, and if it does, the developer "should be shot."

Rightly so...OK means nothing! Even in a single-button dialog box...except that it doesn't matter what the button says if there's one button although it *would* be great if it wasn't ambiguous. But at worse, it can remain "OK" since there's no choice to make although it could feed a dangerous habit of clicking "OK" in dialog boxes to dismiss it.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

"Are you sure you don't want to delete the entire contents of your hard drive?"

Can you give me an example of a dialog window that's formulated that way? On Mac OS X that is, I don't care about Windows at all.

As in: "Are you sure you don't want to delete the entire contents of your hard drive?" instead of "Are you sure you want to delete the entire contents of your hard drive?"





So far all the Mac OS X dialogs I come across are written down in such a way that OK and Cancel always mean the same thing: OK positive confirmation to actively do something, Cancel to stop whatever it is you're trying to do.

See with your phrasing you turn everything around: OK to stop whatever it is you're trying to do, Cancel as a positive confirmation to actively do something. That's completely unexpected behaviour.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

See, I agree 100% on the Erase/Don't Erase situation where the buttons actually do something. If I saw a dialog box like the ones you guys are describing, I'd force-quit the app.

I would too...and I'd trash the app. But not everyone knows how to force-quit. They do know how to unplug a computer or push the power button though...could be equally dangerous as hitting 'Cancel'.

[JKT]

Quite possibly the worst dialogues I come across are on my work site - to cancel an action you have to pick between OK and Cancel... which is it that you need to press again?

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Can you give me an example of a dialog window that's formulated that way? On Mac OS X that is, I don't care about Windows at all.

As in: "Are you sure you don't want to delete the entire contents of your hard drive?" instead of "Are you sure you want to delete the entire contents of your hard drive?"

There is no example. It was an extreme example that I'm sure would never pass a quality-assurance test...but you never know, some developer in India could word things in such a way that makes sense to him but makes no sense to someone else and if he's a one-man team, there will be no quality-assurance that will catch his badly worded dialog message.

I am not trying to denigrate Mac OS X or Windows here. I'm just saying that dialog boxes should be as unambiguous as possible by having a clear message *and* clear buttons. Above all, the buttons have to be completely unambiguous. It doesn't matter what the message says...the buttons have to be clear enough to make a choice regardless what the message says. It helps though if both the message and buttons have a clear meaning. Buttons with no meaning if the message isn't read forces the user to read it and perhaps confuse him if it's not worded correctly.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

There is no example. It was an extreme example that I'm sure would never pass a quality-assurance test...but you never know, some developer in India could word things in such a way that makes sense to him but makes no sense to someone else and if he's a one-man team, there will be no quality-assurance that will catch his badly worded dialog message.

The same Indian developer would probably forget to include [Erase], [Don't Erase] all the same. Or accidentally switch the buttons around so that [Erase] actually doesn't erase at all, and [Don't Erase] will proceed with a no-questions-asked self-destruct sequence.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

See with your phrasing you turn everything around: OK to stop whatever it is you're trying to do, Cancel as a positive confirmation to actively do something. That's completely unexpected behaviour.

It certainly would be unexpected. In almost every case, OS X is consistant in how it deals with dialogs...that's definitely a plus. In fact, OS X is the best OS for consistency and unambiguous behaviors.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

The same Indian developer would probably forget to include [Erase], [Don't Erase] all the same. Or accidentally switch the buttons around so that [Erase] actually doesn't erase at all, and [Don't Erase] will proceed with a no-questions-asked self-destruct sequence.

Yeah but that would be a bug...and not a misunderstanding. Unambiguously titled buttons that do the opposite of what they describe would be considered a bug or malicious software.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Yeah but that would be a bug...and not a misunderstanding. Unambiguously titled buttons that do the opposite of what they describe would be considered a bug or malicious software.

So would your example of phrasing dialog windows. It's a complete 180 on the default Mac OS X way.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

In fact, I remember seeing a screenshot of a real-life "Are you sure you want to cancel? OK/Cancel" type dialog box on Interface Hall of Shame or some similar site years ago, and I was looking for it to post in the thread, but I can't seem to find it anymore.

I'll do you one better.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

So would your example of phrasing dialog windows. It's a complete 180 on the default Mac OS X way.

Uh...what? Verbed dialogs have been a staple of the Mac HIG since the beginning. But then again, you have already disqualified yourself from the debate by arguing FOR ambiguous dialog boxes.

[mdc]

That screenshot is from an application we use at work.
The first mistake is that the first verb you read is "saved", so your mind automatically thinks it's a save dialog box.
The second mistak is that "Yes" is the default button. Pressing enter will cause you to "disregard your changes" and thus, not save anything you just did.

The dialog box should be changed to:

Save changes?
This service ticket has not been saved. Would you like to save your changes?
[ Save ] [ Do not Save ]

[Big Mac]

That's a pretty funny one. No, I would not like to disregard my changes.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Can you give me an example of a dialog window that's formulated that way? On Mac OS X that is, I don't care about Windows at all.

As in: "Are you sure you don't want to delete the entire contents of your hard drive?" instead of "Are you sure you want to delete the entire contents of your hard drive?"

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9981/picture1fb6.png

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6198/picture2wv5.png

So far all the Mac OS X dialogs I come across are written down in such a way that OK and Cancel always mean the same thing: OK positive confirmation to actively do something, Cancel to stop whatever it is you're trying to do.

See with your phrasing you turn everything around: OK to stop whatever it is you're trying to do, Cancel as a positive confirmation to actively do something. That's completely unexpected behaviour.

Cancel works fine there from a logic standpoint, but that should not be OK. "Empty Trash" would work better, as it confirms that you are going to delete something. I always think that anything that destroys data should be as clear as possible.

[0157988944]

Yeah. Instead of "OK," whenever possible, the button should state what will happen. (i.e. "Save Changes," "Empty Trash," "Stop Downloading," etc.)

[CharlesS]

FWIW, I just reported the Empty Trash dialog through the bug reporter. For a reference link, I dug up this page of the UI guidelines:

Apple Human Interface Guidelines: Dialogs

Here's the odd thing, though - scroll up just a bit from that link, and what do they show a screenshot of on that very page? The "Secure Empty Trash" dialog with its "OK" and "Cancel" buttons. On the same page where they tell you not to do that.

[Kevin]

Here is a neat dialog.



Damn those image durms!!

[0157988944]

Hahaha!

What the hell is that from? I've seen un-descriptive dialogs before, but never anti-descriptive ones.

[Chuckit]

dialog durm sense

[Brass]

Here's my favourite that I see in an application I use frequently at work, Legato "Networker" (Unix backup system):



OK to CANCEL?

OK... or... CANCEL?

ummm.... ???

Yeah, OK, so it's not that hard to figure out, but it is still very dumb! "Cancel Verify" and "Contine Verify" would have been a lot more appropriate here.

Oh yeah... gotta love the dialogue window's title too. oh! how good of you to let me know!

[Chuckit]

But the question is, can you cancel out of canceling the cancelation of the Verify operation?

[MartiNZ]

Heh, it would be the next one that asked if it was okay to cancel the cancellation that would really take the cake .

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Brass 

Oh yeah... gotta love the dialogue window's title too. oh! how good of you to let me know!

To be fair, that looks like an X11 app, and the window title is probably just the app's name - the backup system is using a program called "dialog_popup" to pop up the dialog.

[Brass]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

To be fair, that looks like an X11 app, and the window title is probably just the app's name - the backup system is using a program called "dialog_popup" to pop up the dialog.

That's absolutely true. But X11 or not, the developers of the "dialog_popup" routine should have provided a mechanism for setting a useful window title (and/or the routine that called dialog_popup should have used said mechanism).

eg, In X11, my XTerm windows have useful titles (provided by myself using the '-T' argument to xterm in each of the shortcuts I have configured).