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This broke my heart
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Tiresias
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Dec 9, 2008, 10:46 AM
 
I heard a story today that broke my heart. I do not want to shock or offend anyone. If you are faint hearted, do not read on. I just feel the need to share it—both the story, and the burden of knowing it.

Before I tell it to you, I had better give you a few background facts.

I am an expatriated New Zealander living in South Korea. I really love dogs, and that makes living here hard, to say the least. Most people know that in South Korea they eat dogs. What a lot of people do not know is that these men (they are inevitably middle-aged and elderly men) also believe that a painful death adrenalizes the meat, and that this somehow increases its medicinal properties. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows this is superstition and nonsense, but the point is this: the dogs are not only killed and eaten, they suffer horrible deaths by torture—they are scolded with boiling water, they are beaten with sticks, strung up alive over fires. Until this day of horror arrives, the dogs are usually kept chained up in the yard and feed food scraps. They live their whole life at the end of a very short chain, sometimes so short that the dog cannot stand upright, or sometimes even in wooden boxes with a narrow slot through which to slide food. I have seen that with my own eyes.

Those are the facts. The story was told to me today by a woman who heard it from a man. He gave it as the reason why he no longer condones eating dogs. I do not know if he was actually involved in the scene I am going to describe, or if he only witnessed it.

A man had kept a dog in the manner described—chained to the ground—and feed it up from a puppy on food scraps. The day came to kill it. The man and three of his friends took the dog down to the river and strung it up from a tree. Then they began to beat it. They beat it and beat it until it was bloody all over and howling. But somehow, the rope with which they'd strung it up came loose, and the dog got free. It ran about twenty meters down a road running parallel to the river, when the man, its owner, called it back. And the dog, in a mysterious act of loyalty that I cannot begin to understand, returned to its owners side. The three men then finished the beating.

This story tells me everything that I need to know about dogs and men.

I dedicate this thread, whatever comes of it, to that amazing animal, the dog. It is a friend that few men deserve.
     
nonhuman
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Dec 9, 2008, 10:55 AM
 
While I'm sure that some food dogs are treated horribly, just like food animals of all species often are, it's ridiculous to assume that all dogs are tortured to death before being eaten. Also, it's completely not true that only men, and only middle-aged to old men, eat dog.
     
Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 11:04 AM
 
What do you know about this, nonhuman? I have lived in South Korea for 6 years. The dogs here are tortured to death as we cure a ham or a Frenchman stuffs a goose with fat to make pate de foie gras. As for women and young men being involved in this business, you may be right, but it would have to be extremely uncommon because I have never heard of it. Eating dog and "preparing" dog meat is seen as a male activity.
     
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Dec 9, 2008, 11:20 AM
 
As sad as this is, it's a small problem compared to the millions of chicken we produce in factory farms. Birds are routinely living with multiple bone fractures and are having their beaks cut off to stop them from pecking each other in the confines of their cages.

Pigs on hog farms are living in conditions that can only be described as barbaric. Crated veal, which is becoming illegal in most places, is another example of inhuman treatment of animals.
     
Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
As sad as this is, it's a small problem compared to the millions of chicken we produce in factory farms. Birds are routinely living with multiple bone fractures and are having their beaks cut off to stop them from pecking each other in the confines of their cages.

Pigs on hog farms are living in conditions that can only be described as barbaric. Crated veal, which is becoming illegal in most places, is another example of inhuman treatment of animals.
That is unfortunate too, but this is quite different, because the death is particularly and deliberately horrible, and the animal is a dog.
     
Laminar
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Dec 9, 2008, 11:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
That is unfortunate too, but this is quite different, because the death is particularly and deliberately horrible, and the animal is a dog.
An animal is an animal. Cows are more intelligent than people often give them credit for, dogs are just more cuddly.
     
Phileas
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Dec 9, 2008, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
That is unfortunate too, but this is quite different, because the death is particularly and deliberately horrible, and the animal is a dog.
An animal is an animal is an animal. Why should a dog feel more pain than a pig or a bird? The only reason we get more upset about a dog's suffering is because many of us, myself included, like dogs as pets and companions. I am a confirmed carnivore but I try to make sure that I buy meat only from sources where I know it has been a: humanely raised and b: humanely killed.

Chicken and pigs are kept in cages deliberately too - the payoff is profit. The price we pay for cheap meat is a life not worth living for the animals we eat. There is no difference between a Korean killing a dog for meat and Western farmer keeping chickens in conditions that will cause bodily harm to the birds in his care.
     
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Dec 9, 2008, 11:57 AM
 
Suddenly, I find myself simply ravenous...
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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nonhuman
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Dec 9, 2008, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
What do you know about this, nonhuman? I have lived in South Korea for 6 years. The dogs here are tortured to death as we cure a ham or a Frenchman stuffs a goose with fat to make pate de foie gras. As for women and young men being involved in this business, you may be right, but it would have to be extremely uncommon because I have never heard of it. Eating dog and "preparing" dog meat is seen as a male activity.
By your own admission you've never actually seen this occur. For all you know these are deliberate lies created by an anti-dog meat movement. I'm not saying this is the case, just that you have no actual facts here.

I am 100% opposed to anyone treating any animal in the manner described, but you've given me no evidence that this actually occurs only third-hand hearsay. In my experience, most people who oppose the eating of dog (or horse, for that matter, which is a traditional food in many places around the world) do so for the simple reason that they think said animals are cute. Never once have I heard opposition to dog meat on the grounds that the dogs are inhumanely treated (though I have seen the poor conditions in which food dogs are kept in China, but they weren't nearly as bad as what you've describe).

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that your claims are completely beyond anything I've heard before and, as such, I'm going to require a little more than just a story you heard from a woman who heard it from a man.
     
Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
By your own admission you've never actually seen this occur. For all you know these are deliberate lies created by an anti-dog meat movement. I'm not saying this is the case, just that you have no actual facts here.

I am 100% opposed to anyone treating any animal in the manner described, but you've given me no evidence that this actually occurs only third-hand hearsay. In my experience, most people who oppose the eating of dog (or horse, for that matter, which is a traditional food in many places around the world) do so for the simple reason that they think said animals are cute. Never once have I heard opposition to dog meat on the grounds that the dogs are inhumanely treated (though I have seen the poor conditions in which food dogs are kept in China, but they weren't nearly as bad as what you've describe).

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that your claims are completely beyond anything I've heard before and, as such, I'm going to require a little more than just a story you heard from a woman who heard it from a man.
Here's what I know.

The men who do it talk about it openly. I myself have talked to them. They don't see it as anything to be ashamed of. On the contrary, they are happy to talk about it because they think it attests to the medicinal-virtue of the meat they eat and or sell.

There is a growing unease about it, though not so great to warrant the word, "movement." All the same, it has led to a lot of media attention, including hidden camera-type documentaries. These documentaries confirm, with gut-wrenching explicitness, what the men themselves report.

I used to live close to a dog-meat restaurant. The heart-sickening howling that came out of that place at times, though undoubtedly from a dog, was like nothing I have ever heard from any dog before in my life.

My wife is Korean. When she was a student, walking to school one day she saw a dog strung up over a fire while being beaten by four men.

During "dog soup" season last year (mid-summer) I saw a dog running down the street howling with front leg dangling like an empty sleeve, a bashed-in head, a body scorched-black, and an eyeball hanging out of its socket. I can't prove that that dog had been deliberately beaten, and escaped, but I can't think of any other way to explain its injuries.

The story I told at the top of this thread was to me the most astonishing, if the least substantiated, and that's why I told it.
     
Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
There is no difference between a Korean killing a dog for meat and Western farmer keeping chickens in conditions that will cause bodily harm to the birds in his care.
1. The animals we are talking about are different, and I argue that the differences matter. Your reasoning—if you follow it through to its ultimate logical consequences—is that every sentient being is equal. That is not true. To say that killing a chicken and killing a child are equally immoral is to engage in a flippant and frivolous metaphysics that is also completely insincere. A dog is more intelligent than a chicken. Therefore, it has a greatly capacity for suffering.

2. The mistreatment we are talking about is also very different, and the key point here is that the dogs are deliberately, creatively, and energetically tortured. The chickens and pigs are simply neglected.

Come on, are you guys f**king with me? Are you just posting for the sake of an argument? Are you really so bored out of your minds that you are impatient to argue whether one is justified is sharing disbelief and heartache at the torturing of dogs?

I'm dumbfounded.
     
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:39 PM
 
troll
     
Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:47 PM
 
When I heard this story, my heart went down into my boots. I think that it is meaningful and poignant. But it turns out that the real reason I came here was that I had forgotten...

Internet lesson no 40593: Internet forums are strictly for sarcastic wisecracks, pointless arguments, and funny pictures of cats.
     
Chuckit
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:47 PM
 
A pig is more intelligent than a dog. But just because somebody is less intelligent doesn't make it more OK to torture and kill them. I agree with you that slaughtering dogs is wrong, but so is torturing any creature to death. Unfortunately, it seems to be in our nature to excuse any torture that results in food we like. These people do it with dogs, you do it with everything else.
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Laminar
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
1. The animals we are talking about are different, and I argue that the differences matter. Your reasoning—if you follow it through to its ultimate logical consequences—is that every sentient being is equal. That is not true. To say that killing a chicken and killing a child are equally immoral is to engage in a flippant and frivolous metaphysics that is also completely insincere. A dog is more intelligent than a chicken. Therefore, it has a greatly capacity for suffering.

2. The mistreatment we are talking about is also very different, and the key point here is that the dogs are deliberately, creatively, and energetically tortured. The chickens and pigs are simply neglected.

Come on, are you guys f**king with me? Are you just posting for the sake of an argument? Are you really so bored out of your minds that you are impatient to argue whether one is justified is sharing disbelief and heartache at the torturing of dogs?

I'm dumbfounded.
What's the intelligence cutoff then? Is it okay to torture a retarded dog because it is less intelligent than a chicken?

Also, don't underestimate cows. They're able to identify their owner, and in some cases will come running to greet their owner.
     
nonhuman
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
Here's what I know.

The men who do it talk about it openly. I myself have talked to them. They don't see it as anything to be ashamed of. On the contrary, they are happy to talk about it because they think it attests to the medicinal-virtue of the meat they eat and or sell.

There is a growing unease about it, though not so great to warrant the word, "movement." All the same, it has led to a lot of media attention, including hidden camera-type documentaries. These documentaries confirm, with gut-wrenching explicitness, what the men themselves report.

I used to live close to a dog-meat restaurant. The heart-sickening howling that came out of that place at times, though undoubtedly from a dog, was like nothing I have ever heard from any dog before in my life.

My wife is Korean. When she was a student, walking to school one day she saw a dog strung up over a fire while being beaten by four men.

During "dog soup" season last year (mid-summer) I saw a dog running down the street howling with front leg dangling like an empty sleeve, a bashed-in head, a body scorched-black, and an eyeball hanging out of its socket. I can't prove that that dog had been deliberately beaten, and escaped, but I can't think of any other way to explain its injuries.

The story I told at the top of this thread was to me the most astonishing, if the least substantiated, and that's why I told it.
Ok, that's much different and much more valid evidence. Especially with the hidden camera documentaries. A little more research shows that beating dogs to death is actually a common method used.

Unfortunately, seeing as dog meat is already illegal in South Korea (and has been for 20 years), it's pretty unlikely that there's much that can be done to stop this. I imagine the best possible route to reduce inhumane treatment of these dogs would be to legalize dog meat again and impose regulations on their treatment as well as harsh penalties on mistreating them. Allowing a legal means for people to prepare dog meat should encourage them to follow the regulations rather than sticking with the old ways.
     
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:54 PM
 
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
my bandmy web sitemy guitar effectsmy photosfacebookbrightpoint
     
olePigeon
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:55 PM
 
I have no sympathy for a dog being eaten just as cows or chickens. I do think that intentional cruelty to an animal is wrong. My uncle still hunts on preserves; various game, quail, duck, and geese. He has a rule, though: If you can't shoot clean, don't shoot; never let the animal suffer.

If they want to "adrenalize" the meat, take a lesson from the Japanese and Kobe beef cows. Give the dogs messages and feed them Saki. You'll get the absolute best marbleization of fat to muscle. I'd imagine even dog could taste pretty good that way. They're also missing an opportunity to sell expensive dog meat.
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Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:56 PM
 
Even if I concede that a dog is no different from chicken, pig, cow or sheep, do you know of anyone deliberately—need I repeat deliberately—torturing a chicken, pig, cow or sheep with a pickax handle, fire, boiling water, pliers, etc. with the explicit intention of maximizing its pain and prolonging its death? I imagine you cannot. The forms of abuse we are comparing are very different.

And anyway, why do two wrongs make one of the wrongs not worth discussing? I never said I am happy about any animal being mistreated. I just wanted to discuss dog torture in South Korea. But all some of you have to say is, "Well, pigs are mistreated too," as if that somehow made the discussion redundant.

It's very annoying! Please stop it!
     
Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
If they want to "adrenalize" the meat, take a lesson from the Japanese and Kobe beef cows. Give the dogs messages and feed them Saki. You'll get the absolute best marbleization of fat to muscle. I'd imagine even dog could taste pretty good that way. They're also missing an opportunity to sell expensive dog meat.
Can't they eat the adrenal gland or something?
     
Laminar
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
Even if I concede that a dog is no different from chicken, pig, cow or sheep, do you know of anyone deliberately—need I repeat deliberately—torturing a chicken, pig, cow or sheep with a pickax handle, fire, boiling water, pliers, etc. with the explicit intention of maximizing its pain and prolonging its death? I imagine you cannot. The forms of abuse we are comparing are very different.
Yeah, there was a thread a while back about some guys running a forklift through a cow that sparked a pretty nasty discussion on animal rights.
     
starman
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:07 PM
 
While it's a sad story, what in the world can we possibly do about it? Call every person over there and ask to speak to the animal torturer of the house and ask him to stop?

Anyone have Sally Struthers' phone number?

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Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What's the intelligence cutoff then? Is it okay to torture a retarded dog because it is less intelligent than a chicken?

Also, don't underestimate cows. They're able to identify their owner, and in some cases will come running to greet their owner.
On this point I am totally biased. Dogs are special animals. Our relationship with them is unique and should be honored.

But just the same, this is not really a slippery slope. Torturing a dog to death—and just think for a minute of what that means—is not the same as keeping farm animals in battery-conditions and then slaughtering them as quickly as possible. Even if those conditions are deplorable. Even if the machinery at the slaughter house is imperfect and some animals die slowly.

Which would you rather, Laminar? Remember, the dogs exist in battery-conditions too, so the difference hangs on the method of execution. Come on, which do you prefer? To die an accidentally slow and painful death, or to die at the hands of someone who has brought together a variety of tools and methods to creatively and deliberately maximize your pain and extend your death?

Stop being contrary just for the sake of it.
     
Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Yeah, there was a thread a while back about some guys running a forklift through a cow that sparked a pretty nasty discussion on animal rights.
Did he do it on purpose with the aim of torturing the cow as slowly and painfully as possible? And does it happen routinely, and on a vast scale? And is it condoned by all but a minority of society?

Apples and oranges.
     
starman
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
On this point I am totally biased. Dogs are special animals. Our relationship with them is unique and should be honored.
Where?

Remember, over THERE is not the same as over HERE. In India they let cows roam free. I can't imagine what they think of what we do to them.

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Dec 9, 2008, 01:14 PM
 
All this talk has made me hungry...

:goes out to buy some whalemeat:

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Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
While it's a sad story, what in the world can we possibly do about it?
What do you recommend? Should we ignore it?
     
Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Where?

Remember, over THERE is not the same as over HERE. In India they let cows roam free. I can't imagine what they think of what we do to them.
Cultural relativism does not mean everything is sanctioned. There are moral absolutes. And I think this is one.
     
olePigeon
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
On this point I am totally biased. Dogs are special animals. Our relationship with them is unique and should be honored.
That holds true for any domesticated animal, not just dogs.
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Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
That holds true for any domesticated animal, not just dogs.
So your point is that no domesticated animal should be slowly tortured to death? Fine. Then we agree. It's not like because I am outraged that dogs are tortured I am implying cats should be tortured instead.
     
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Dec 9, 2008, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
What do you recommend? Should we ignore it?
This is YOUR topic. What do YOU recommend other than bitching about it on an internet forum?

I'm just saying that most people here don't know what to do either, so other than venting and maybe getting a few "I agree" posts, what's the point of it?

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Dec 9, 2008, 01:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
So your point is that no domesticated animal should be slowly tortured to death? Fine. Then we agree. It's not like because I am outraged that dogs are tortured I am implying cats should be tortured instead.
I don't want any animals tortured (by humans), domesticated or not. I was just stating that anyone who has a pet animal will attest to a "special connection." It doesn't only apply for dogs. I have several cats (I'm a cat person) and I love their unique personalities and obvious affection. I wasn't accusing you of being disingenuous in regards to animals other than dogs.
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
This is YOUR topic. What do YOU recommend other than bitching about it on an internet forum?

I'm just saying that most people here don't know what to do either, so other than venting and maybe getting a few "I agree" posts, what's the point of it?
Possibly to promote awareness of the issue? While Homo Loquens is certainly not the first to draw attention to it, it all starts with one person with the compassion and drive to stand up and say it's wrong and it should be stopped. If one person gets enough agreement, miraculous things can happen. I don't see why anyone wouldn't empathize with his point of view in this case, unless one was more interested in raising psuedo-intellectual arguements about how so many other animals are tortured, thus so what and what can we do...

Maybe if the dogs mentioned had brand new iPhones strapped to them during torture there'd be more empathy.

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Dec 9, 2008, 02:10 PM
 
(the hundredth monkey effect isn't real)
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
This is YOUR topic. What do YOU recommend other than bitching about it on an internet forum?

I'm just saying that most people here don't know what to do either, so other than venting and maybe getting a few "I agree" posts, what's the point of it?
This question has been answered in my first post. I said, "I just feel the need to share it—both the story, and the burden of knowing it."

When horrible things happen, it is human to want to talk about them. Even if there is no solution; in fact, especially if there is no solution. However...

Originally Posted by BlueSky View Post
Possibly to promote awareness of the issue? While Homo Loquens is certainly not the first to draw attention to it, it all starts with one person with the compassion and drive to stand up and say it's wrong and it should be stopped. If one person gets enough agreement, miraculous things can happen.
I agree.

Thanks for shedding a ray of light on this thread.
     
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:20 PM
 
Loquens....

Did you report any of this to the police (or appropriate authorities)? Since I'm guessing that this (what you described) is illegal.

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Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
(the hundredth monkey effect isn't real)
Speaking of theories, I have one about the web forums. I don't know what it is, but something about them inspires an uncontrollable urge to disagree.

If you took up a straw from the floor and said to a web forum: Look at that. Do you see that straw? That's a straw. What would happen? You'd be arguing about it until 3 o'clock in the morning.
     
Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Loquens....

Did you report any of this to the police (or appropriate authorities)? Since I'm guessing that this (what you described) is illegal.
Are you kidding me? Human rights, insofar as they exist, are still a novelty here. Animals have a long wait ahead of them.
     
Sayf-Allah
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
Are you kidding me? Human rights, insofar as they exist, are still a novelty here. Animals have a long wait ahead of them.
Are you just guessing? Because a quick look on google found this:

http://www.idausa.org/campaigns/korea/alert_070703.html

And now I'm going to say something you won't like (and probably many on here).

If you've heard or witnessed such things and didn't even try to find out if this was illegal and tried to report it... well... I'll stop here to make sure the mods won't have to intervene....

"Learn to swim"
     
BlueSky
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
(the hundredth monkey effect isn't real)


Demonstrably real, everything from the Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill sexual harassment brouhaha to the atrocities in Nazi Germany. I don't know if the physical instance of a hundredth monkey actually happened, but that's moot, it's the concept that's significant. Simply put, if enough people become aware of an issue, it amounts to a "critical mass" that eventually spreads to the population at large. (my own half-ass definition, but you get the point.)
     
Laminar
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
Speaking of theories, I have one about the web forums. I don't know what it is, but something about them inspires an uncontrollable urge to disagree.
Would it be too predictable to disagree with this?
     
Maflynn
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:46 PM
 
Dog the other white meat
~Mike
     
nonhuman
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:49 PM
 
It's not a white meat.

More like beef than anything else, but a very unique flavor. Quite delicious, really.
     
Chuckit
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:52 PM
 
Please try to show some sensitivity here.
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Tiresias  (op)
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Dec 9, 2008, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Are you just guessing? Because a quick look on google found this:

http://www.idausa.org/campaigns/korea/alert_070703.html

And now I'm going to say something you won't like (and probably many on here).

If you've heard or witnessed such things and didn't even try to find out if this was illegal and tried to report it... well... I'll stop here to make sure the mods won't have to intervene....
There is a lot you do not understand about this country and it cannot be learned with Google. I will just say simply that the idea of a foreigner going to the police with a story about a dog being tortured and expecting something to be done would make any policeman laugh heartily all the way to the dog-stew restaurant. For lunch.
     
Sayf-Allah
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Dec 9, 2008, 03:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
There is a lot you do not understand about this country and it cannot be learned with Google. I will just say simply that the idea of a foreigner going to the police with a story about a dog being tortured and expecting something to be done would make any policeman laugh heartily all the way to the dog-stew restaurant. For lunch.
Get your (Korean) wife to report it.

Or get her to find someone who agrees with you to report it. Just posting on an internet site about how "evil" Koreans are isn't going to help at all.

Unless your main aim is to get a ban on people eating dogs. Which if that's the case why don't you just move back to your own culture?

"Learn to swim"
     
nonhuman
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Dec 9, 2008, 04:09 PM
 
There's already a ban on people eating dogs in Korea...
     
Phileas
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Dec 9, 2008, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Homo Loquens View Post
1. The animals we are talking about are different, and I argue that the differences matter. Your reasoning—if you follow it through to its ultimate logical consequences—is that every sentient being is equal. That is not true. To say that killing a chicken and killing a child are equally immoral is to engage in a flippant and frivolous metaphysics that is also completely insincere. A dog is more intelligent than a chicken. Therefore, it has a greatly capacity for suffering.

2. The mistreatment we are talking about is also very different, and the key point here is that the dogs are deliberately, creatively, and energetically tortured. The chickens and pigs are simply neglected.
1. Mistreating a chicken and mistreating a dog are exactly the same thing. You are causing pain to a sentient being. Pain is pain is pain, no intelligence is needed to suffer.

2. Not true. Chicken on a factory farm are not just neglected. They are deliberately de-beaked, they are deliberately kept in cages that will result in bone fractures. I don't think you've ever seen a factory farm in the flesh. It is hell by any other name.

3. Pigs are more intelligent that many breeds of dog. Cows and chicken recognize their owners and will form a bond with humans.

You are allowing your emotional attachment to dogs to cloud your judgement.
     
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Dec 9, 2008, 05:05 PM
 
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Maflynn
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Dec 9, 2008, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
It's not a white meat.

More like beef than anything else, but a very unique flavor. Quite delicious, really.
Your right,

Cat is the other white meat
~Mike
     
 
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