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besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Whoopdy do.

So what?

One side has to win this one....and Israel has much more to offer the US and the better part of the world....so why wouldn't we support Israel? To maintain some moral standard? Hell no. We'll do whats best for us. And right now thats "supporting" Israel. Also...the palestinians hate the US as much as Israel...that right there is enough reason to support Israel and not have a trade relationship with them.

If you want to go about this this way, this is far more genuine and logical to me than justifying this with some argument that deals with morality.

To this I say that violence evokes more violence. If we manage to wipe the enemies of Israel off the face of this Earth by being blatant and assertive in our support of Israel either that will result in all violence stopping, or us stirring a hornet's nest putting at risk billions of lives (both our own as well as a significant portion of the Arab population of the world, which makes up about a third of the overall world's population). Given that this conflict has gone on for several generations, my thinking is that it's already quite the hornet's nest, and a better starting place might be to do what I'm suggesting and let this war run its course without our involvement or intervention.
     
Snow-i
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
We need to get out of the support business altogether as it relates to Israel. My saying this has nothing to do with how I feel about the conflict and who is more or less in the right, my saying this is simply based on the fact that our support has never worked, and never will work.
Never worked...in what capacity? To bring a definite and quick end to a conflict? No...of course thats never happened. But it does serve other purposes.
     
Snow-i
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
If you want to go about this this way, this is far more genuine and logical to me than justifying this with some argument that deals with morality.

To this I say that violence evokes more violence. If we manage to wipe the enemies of Israel off the face of this Earth by being blatant and assertive in our support of Israel either that will result in all violence stopping, or us stirring a hornet's nest putting at risk billions of lives (both our own as well as a significant portion of the Arab population of the world, which makes up about a third of the overall world's population). Given that this conflict has gone on for several generations, my thinking is that it's already quite the hornet's nest, and a better starting place might be to do what I'm suggesting and let this war run its course without our involvement or intervention.
Exactly...let the war run its course. Don't change anything. Pulling support from Israel will be seen as an action, not an inaction....I say we leave things where they are and continue our relations with Israel. Let Israel and Hamas do what they have to do. I agree with you here in that sense.
     
Chuckit
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:10 PM
 
You know, I've realized, the UK government supports the US much more than it supports American domestic terrorists. They really need to get out of this conflict, don't you think?
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besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Strategically? How is not productive that way? I could argue against that.

Productive for the conflict? This won't end til one side wins....and that doesn't happen until they've learned they can no longer provoke Israel for international support.

And the negative attention towards us from the ME is already there. Whether we support Israel or not those that hate us hate us just the same.

This makes little sense to me, sorry.

There are many ways for war to come to an end, and one way is for both sides to realize that war simply does not serve their interests, doesn't make sense - they don't get anything out of it, or they get something more out of an alternative. There have been many wars that have ended without one side being decimated and there being a clear victor. Resources are finite, if nothing more why not let them use them all up until they both can acknowledge that this violence is not sustainable?

As far as the "they already hate us" sentiment, is their hating us a binary thing? It is possible for there to be degrees of hate, and for them to hate us more, no? Sorry, but this is a very weak rationalization that doesn't really do much to advance your argument, in my opinion.
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Exactly...let the war run its course. Don't change anything. Pulling support from Israel will be seen as an action, not an inaction....I say we leave things where they are and continue our relations with Israel. Let Israel and Hamas do what they have to do. I agree with you here in that sense.
You sound like W Bush, embracing the status quo even though it has never worked. Why would we do this? This clearly has not worked, has it?
     
Snow-i
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
This makes little sense to me, sorry.

There are many ways for war to come to an end, and one way is for both sides to realize that war simply does not serve their interests, doesn't make sense - they don't get anything out of it, or they get something more out of an alternative. There have been many wars that have ended without one side being decimated and there being a clear victor. Resources are finite, if nothing more why not let them use them all up until they both can acknowledge that this violence is not sustainable?
Indeed. But why break off relations with them now? I don't see how there's any benefit to doing that....it might even drag the war out longer. You know besson we often argue for the same things (in this case let the war run its course) and argue over methods or semantics..

As far as the "they already hate us" sentiment, is their hating us a binary thing? It is possible for there to be degrees of hate, and for them to hate us more, no? Sorry, but this is a very weak rationalization that doesn't really do much to advance your argument, in my opinion.
I think its irrelevant. There are degrees, but who gives a ****? I'd rather not base our policy over how much someone hates us. If they hate us, and its deep rooted, let them...carry on and do the best things for your country without trying to appease them one or two degrees of hate.
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
You know, I've realized, the UK government supports the US much more than it supports American domestic terrorists. They really need to get out of this conflict, don't you think?
First, while you might characterize the individuals on the front lines of the Palestinian side as terrorists, there are many innocent Palestinians who simply wish to live in peace. This is important to consider too.

Secondly, American terrorists are clearly and indisputably living under the jurisdiction of American law, and they would not dispute that. It is much sloppier over there, not as clear cut, so I don't think this comparison makes much sense.
     
Snow-i
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Jan 6, 2009, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
You sound like W Bush, embracing the status quo even though it has never worked. Why would we do this? This clearly has not worked, has it?
What clearly hasn't worked is intervening and trying to broker cease fires and negotiate peace, and pulling Israel back to appease the world community. The world community is silent now.

Let them do what they have to do without intervening. Weren't you just saying the same thing?
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Never worked...in what capacity? To bring a definite and quick end to a conflict? No...of course thats never happened. But it does serve other purposes.
Maybe it does, but what are the tradeoffs? We are dealing with war in Iraq and Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran... Do you not think that this is all connected somehow? They may hate us, but that doesn't mean that we can't find diplomatic solutions that aren't undermined by drawing and redrawing our line in the sand. There are many countries that we do business with that hate at least a part of our nation and its values and governance.
     
besson3c
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Jan 6, 2009, 09:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
What clearly hasn't worked is intervening and trying to broker cease fires and negotiate peace, and pulling Israel back to appease the world community. The world community is silent now.

Let them do what they have to do without intervening. Weren't you just saying the same thing?
Yes, but to me continuing to support them as I described undermines this. There are numerous ways to support a country that don't involve brokering cease fires and negotiating peace.
     
TheWOAT
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Jan 6, 2009, 10:09 PM
 
I have stopped caring completely. I hope US aid to both Israel and Palestine ends. Those two sides are perfect for each other.
     
Chuckit
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Jan 6, 2009, 10:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheWOAT View Post
I have stopped caring completely. I hope US aid to both Israel and Palestine ends. Those two sides are perfect for each other.
I fail to see how. By all indications, if the Palestinians would stop shooting at Israel, Israel would be perfectly happy to leave them be. Unfortunately, the Palestinians won't ever give us the opportunity to test that theory.
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Wiskedjak
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Jan 6, 2009, 10:57 PM
 
This is the only US support for Israel that matters:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/me...ef=mpstoryview
     
turtle777
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Jan 6, 2009, 11:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
First, while you might characterize the individuals on the front lines of the Palestinian side as terrorists, there are many innocent Palestinians who simply wish to live in peace. This is important to consider too.
WTF ?

Could you please stop this relativistic BS

Why does "considering the innocent Palestinians" automatically mean that you should let the terrorists thrive ? You are such a tiresome black / white thinking do-gooder.

-t
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jan 6, 2009, 11:24 PM
 
If the U.S., Britain, China, etc...had rockets being fired into their territory they would probably do the same thing Israel has. Personally thats what the definition of 'Defense Force' is. If the self proclaimed refugees dont do anything to stop it, and the guys who fund and support this behavior wont stop it, what do they expect ? If you keep poking a Lion/Tiger and then get upset that it attacked you.... well then your just an idiot.

It is my opinion that the Israel offensives are not to bring about 'regime change' or push any idealistic agenda or push the Arabs into the sea or kill all the refugees or a massive land grab, but rather to destroy the arsenals and ensure some peace and safe time for Israel Which is why we all know that once they have achieved that, Israel will have no problem pulling back completely.

Funny how people don't seem to complain(and protest) when it's the Arabs doing the firing into Israel... constantly.

Go Israel.
     
JohnM15141
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Jan 6, 2009, 11:39 PM
 
Palestinians are to blame for whats happening to Palestinians.

Gee, we voted in Hamas to provoke the tiger, they provoked the tiger, ooh, bad tiger!
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Sayf-Allah
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Jan 7, 2009, 03:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I fail to see how. By all indications, if the Palestinians would stop shooting at Israel, Israel would be perfectly happy to leave them be. Unfortunately, the Palestinians won't ever give us the opportunity to test that theory.
Why do people still believe this myth? (OK, it seems like only Americans believe this but anyway)

Hamas ended the last truce because Israel had put a complete embargo on all goods into Gaza. Hamas respected that truce while Israel kept it's targeted killing of suspected terrorists.

Please stop believing this myth. It's people believing in it that is causing around 100 children to have been killed the last few days.

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Big Mac
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Jan 7, 2009, 04:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Why do people still believe this myth? (OK, it seems like only Americans believe this but anyway)

Hamas ended the last truce because Israel had put a complete embargo on all goods into Gaza. Hamas respected that truce while Israel kept it's targeted killing of suspected terrorists.
ROFL. Talk about myths. The rocket attacks on Israel have never stopped for any consequential period of time for many years. They've been going on for eight years now, with few respites. 7500 of them from 2001-2009. They were going on while I was in Israel a year ago, when there was supposedly a "cease-fire." And they're continuing while the world calls for a new, one-sided, Israel-only cease-fire. Hamas and its allies cry for a cease-fire and condemn Israel while at the same time continuing to fire the rockets from civilian areas. How pathetic and phony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rocket_attacks
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jan 7, 2009 at 04:51 AM. )

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Shaddim
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Jan 7, 2009, 05:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
If the U.S., Britain, China, etc...had rockets being fired into their territory they would probably do the same thing Israel has.
Heh, if someone were lobbing bombs into the US, with that frequency, we would have nuked them by now. No ****, end of discussion.
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Big Mac
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Jan 7, 2009, 05:25 AM
 
Too true. I have long said that Israel endures what no other sovereign country on earth is expected to endure; any other country would have taken far harsher actions against its enemies when assailed by open warfare. Israel is the only country I can think of that gives its tax dollars and its arms to its enemies, in the interest of "peace." Resources that are turned against Israel by those very same "partners" - Fatah and Hamas used to both be under Arafat's command and control, remember, and both entities have taken credit for acts of terrorism against Israel.

I just love the blatant hypocrisy of Arabist condemnations of Israel - the way they conveniently (and completely) ignore the fact of Hamas's terrorist rocket campaigns, not to mention all of the other heinous terrorist bombings Hamas has taken credit for. Most of them don't have any intellectual credibility whatsoever because they will never even consider placing any of the blame on the Hamas war against Israel that has been going on since Hamas was created.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jan 7, 2009 at 08:12 AM. )

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ebuddy
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Jan 7, 2009, 07:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah View Post
Hamas ended the last truce...
... time and again. Their chickens have come home to roost. In addition, it does no good to bring up the number of children dead when Hamas has killed Palestinian children with errant rockets. Palestinians will either address the radical, criminal elements among them and cease rocket firing, or Israeli troops will move forward with their ground offensive to eliminate them.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Jan 7, 2009, 08:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
WTF ?

Could you please stop this relativistic BS
I was beginning to feel the same way.

- We should stop intervening.
We're not intervening at all???
- Well, we're funding Israel. Do we fund Arabs too?
yes
- (redirect) but do we fund Palestinians?
yes, as a matter of fact we have. [example, example]
- (redirect) But do we give aid to the countries surrounding Israel?
yes
- We should not offer aid under the guise of morality.
listed reasons why morality isn't the only reason.
- (redirect) But we're just keeping score.
because we have moral, geopolitical, strategic, and fiscal reasons for supporting the only friendly, prosperous entity in the region. All things have something for which we're keeping score.
- (redirect) Both sides are to blame.
both sides have done reprehensible things. We're talking about a concerted effort to provoke a people, consistent with a stated desire to wipe them off the face of the earth.
- (redirect) But there are innocent Palestinians too.
right, there were innocent Germans, and Japanese, and... war is hell. Criminal behavior carries a penalty. Concerted criminal behavior carries a penalty for the entire entity.
- I just think we need to stop supporting Israel.
we support everyone in the region.
- (redirect) But the Jews in the US...

Say no more.

The whole point about not wanting to "keep score" is just another way of saying; "I've got bananas in my ears... I can't hear you... naynaynaynay!" Whenever someone insists on a point that doesn't make sense you can bet there is a theory somewhere not founded on common sense, well-documented history, or facts, but on something entirely different. It might take several pages, but it will eventually come up.
ebuddy
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jan 7, 2009, 09:52 AM
 
If the arabs and muslims are true to themselves and everyone else, they aught to be thanking the Israeils for doing their job for them. Just as Israel did the Job of the Lebanese army for them in 2006 by fighting a foreign militant force that Lebanon admittedly wanted to stop..... but "somehow" couldn't.

Heck i've heard of a few Lebanese who are actually grateful for what Israel did in 2006..... ironically none of them are muslim, which i thought was quite a coincidence.

Anyway... go Israel.
     
besson3c
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Jan 7, 2009, 10:48 AM
 
ebuddy: you are twisting my words, it isn't fun to have to defend my words line by line when I think I've made my main point clear. I reiterate: we support Israel. Whether that support comes through military intelligence, weapons, our leadership making it pretty clearly known that we empathize with Israel, our political candidates pandering to Jewish voters by expressing an adamant support of Israel, to any number of other examples one could drudge up with a bit of effort (heck, many of the comments in this very thread add credence to my argument), I think it's pretty indisputable - the US supports Israel.

Now, the precise effect and nature of that support is up for debate, and that is what you are trying to obfuscate. I'm not as interested in getting into all of that as I am simply stating the negative effects of our supporting Israel rather than remaining completely neutral. We are not completely neutral, and I would argue that this makes things much worse for all involved.

If you have any interest in seeing it my way, please try to separate your feelings of which side is right from the general strategy of obtaining peace, and what would be involved in doing so. I do have history on my side to support the notion that our support of Israel has not helped any, I think that much is pretty clear.
     
Macrobat
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:27 AM
 
Uh, no, you don't.

Here's a cold, blatant fact for you.

If not for the United States, most of the countries surrounding Israel would be FAR smaller than they are today.

It is the United STATES, not the United Nations that has STOPPED Israel time and again.

One example that stands out clearly in my mind was in the 1973 war when Israeli armor was on the road to Damascus, with NOTHING in their way, when the US MADE them stop.

Your "history on your side" is anything BUT.


Oh look, YouTube video from Israeli UAV showing Palestinian "freedom fighter" DELIBERATELY using the UN School as a launching platform for mortars!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI

The FACT that Israel lives in peace with its neighbors Jordan and Egypt beggars and brings the LIE to the supposition that Israel is the aggressor and simply shooting at them would stop any conflict.

Because - you see - history DOES prove THAT.


Once again, the US supports the Palestinians, as well:

http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/home.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../crs/45198.pdf
( Last edited by Macrobat; Jan 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM. )
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besson3c
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:35 AM
 
Macrobat: what are you saying, that I'm saying that the US has always, unconditionally supported Israel? Where did I say that? I'm not debating the relative support of Israel, I'm debating whether the US supports Israel at all, and whether it should be in the business of providing support to either side at this point.
     
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:41 AM
 
The US has been in the business of supporting allies all over the world for decades, Israel is a US-ally, the LEAST-supported ally of all our allies.

You should change your screen name to "yeah, but."

Get it through your skull, if not for the US "supporting" Israel, this conflict would have been over LONG ago - to the Palestinians' great deficit. The Palestinians would have jack and shyte NOW if not for US pressure on Israel to give the concessions she has to date.

Wake up.
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
Already addressed. Right there in the post you quoted. We sell to EGYPT, we sell to JORDAN, we sell to SAUDI ARABIA.
Not really, the US doesn't allow any arabic country to buy weapons- and systems freely from its arsenal. It has always allowed sales only with numerous limitations, espescially ensuring that Israel keeps its air-superiority, both in offensive and defensive ways.

Certain rockets, jets and bombs as well as certain defensive anti-aircraft-radars and -missile-systems are deliberately kept out of the reach of arabic buyers, but delivered to israeli buyers.

In the course of the iranian threat, the US has changed its arms-policy a bit, seeking to bolster up the moderate arabic states, espescially Saudi-Arabia and Egypt in order to deter Iran, but still it took measures to ensure the superiority of Israel's arsenal nonetheless.

But let's take that aside and return to the current conflict:

Israel is lying, unashamed and completely!

The official line coming from Israel is that Hamas had broken the ceasefire and firing rockets on southern-Israel, prompting Israel into action to stop the rocketfire for good.

That's the lie, right there and in broad daylight!

Sure Hamas fires rockets and didn't renew the ceasefire, but that is only the desired and expected justification for Israel to deceive the international community.

Since the end of the Lebanon-war, Israel has planned secretely and methodically to learn from the mistakes of the lebanon-war and to develop a plan how to do it better in Gaza for the purpose of dethroning Hamas.

The goal to dethrone Hamas was even decided before the lebanon-war, namely since the day Hamas won the parliamentary-elections among the palestinians. It's not the terror, which is rediculously weak, that was the problem with Hamas, it was its uncompromising ideology of wanting to liberate all of Palestine, which would mean the end of Israel as a jewish state and the establishment of an islamic state in its place. The fear was that with Hamas as the palestinian's government, it could in future indoctrinate and convince the palestinians to not give in to a twostate-solution and to not compromise on the right of return for palestinian refuggees into Israel proper, using the infrastructure of government and media, and if Hamas also won the 2009-presidential-election, there would be no Fatah anymore at the hands of power, with which it has already formulated the basic outlines for an agreement.

But for Israel to simply go in, and dismantling a democratically elected government would be seen around the world as a gross abuse of colonial power and damage Israel's reputation beyond repair.

So, Israel and the US, tried first another way, namely to convince the Fatah to stage a coup. That Fatah took back power in a coup could be sold better to the world and to the palestinians than an israeli-intervention. The Fatah was not against it but told them that they would need more weapons and armour to do the feat, and so the US and Israel delivered them. Unfortunately for all involved Hamas found out about the coup-plans and also about the weapon-deliverements, ergo the short civil-war.

The outcome was that Hamas could oust the Fatah from the bureucracy and government of Gaza, but in the Westbank, where not only Fatah had a stronger hold, but which also is under occupation by Israel, Fatah easily won the battle, with Israel and the Palestinian authority detaining the elected government.

The planned coup didn't play out as smooth and effective as Israel and the US anticipated, but at least the Westbank, at least those parts that stood under the palestinian authority, was again in Fatah's control, leaves Gaza to be dealt with somehow:

Since Israel left Gaza, it strictly regulated the flows in and out of it, often closing the crossing-points down in response to intelligence-informations about possible guerillia-attacks or in response to rocket-firings by palestinians. The idea of Israel's government was that since Israel left Gaza, the militants there have no justified reason to continue their militant activities. Of course they are wrong, as simply leaving a territory doesn't mean that the occupation is ended: Since Israel continued to control the airspace, the borders and crossings, most of the electricity- and communication-grid, the occupation merely changed its form but not its existence. In fact Israel felt free to use airbombardments and shellings as well as extrajudicial executions as its methods to fight against the militants in Gaza, and therefore the disengagement was merely a tactic to get israeli settlers and israeli soldiers out of harm's way.

The militants and palestinians in general in Gaza on the other hand not only saw that the occupation didn't end in Gaza, but merely changed its form, they also rightly viewed the palestinians in the Westbank, a much bigger strip of land, as being still under the usual form of occupation and in effect even losing more , because Israel used the halfbaked disengagement from Gaza as a PR-ploy in the international media in order to weaken the criticism that would come up when Israel built its wall on palestinian territory, annexing 10% of the Westbank (a plan that was discussed and approved by the US).

So the situation was: A disengaged Gaza-strip, but still under occupation due to israeli control of everything that matters, where Israel reguarly conducted air-raids and extrajudicial executions, and deliberately closed down crossings for goods and people often and in espescially during harvest-times, a Westbank with a wall annexing 10% of it into Israel, with hundreds of checkpoints and an occupation-army on the ground and issuing curfews for a lot of towns and a lot of times, emprisoning and killing palestinians, with the Fatah completely helpless to achieve any improvement and in fact negotiating with Israel, while Israel expands its settlements and continues to dispossess palestinians, also in East-Jerusalem, and corruptly taking parts of the money donated by the international community into their own pockets in order to forget their problems in luxury... it was not a miracle that a group won the parliamentary elections that was not corrupt and still promoted and lived the virtues of resistance to Israel's occupation, the Hamas.

The Hamas that won the election changed considerably from the Hamas that was formed in the first intifada, they still had their goal of liberating all of Palestine, the return of the palestinian refuggees into their land and homes, the establishment of an islamic state from the mediterannean sea to the jordan-river, but they adopted a twophase-plan, seeing it as pretty unrealistic to achieve the goal in the foreseeable future and instead focusing on the first phase of establishing a souvereign palestinian state in Gaza, Westbank and Jerusalem, and emphasised that practical goal in their election-manifesto.

They became moderate, presentable, much like the Fatah, but without the corruption and with the will to continue armed resistance until the occupation ended, in contrast to Fatah that basically gave up on armed resistance.

So by seeing Hamas win, Israel saw the loss of the Fatah coming, the partner they shot through decades into form and subdued, ready to give up on crucial palestinian rights.

That's why Israel pulled all means and ways to get Hamas out of the picture again, be it propping up Fatah for a coup, isolating Gaza and collectively punish its population through sieges and blockades and trying to dethrone them with the justification of wanting to free Gilad Shalit, the kidnapped israeli soldier, an action that only got stopped when Hezbollah came to the help of Hamas, prompting a bloody Lebanon-war with too many civilians and israeli soldiers killed and the media reporting intensively.

Since that "defeat", Israel's government and army tried to learn everything it could from the Lebanon-war against Hezbollah and drawing a plan how to do it much better with Hamas next time a good opportunity arised.

For months, during the six-month-truce, Israel was gathering information using all means, technical ones as well as collaborators among the Gazans and even information by Egypt, an archenemy of Hamas and its motherorganization, the muslim brotherhood, and maybe even information by the Fatah, but not only that, this time, Israel took care to prepare its offensive with a huge diplomatic PR-preparation, giving talking-points to every israeli official from ambassador to army-chief, explaining extensively to foreign diplomats the unbearable situation of Gaza-rockets, rooting for sympathy and understanding from western and arab politicians as well as western media... and carefully preparing the timing, after the truce of course, in the time between christmas and new-year, enough time before Obama's administration was vowed in, before elections in Israel and the presidential-election in palestine.

The only thing needed was that Hamas played its role, ie. that it doesn't renew the truce and delivers a casus belli, and to secure that Israel never let off the Gaza-siege during the truce and infact intensified it, leading to a harsh situation among the Gazans from which Hamas came under pressure and more radical organizations profited, even with some Hamas-members leaving for these other organizations, saying that Hamas only received worse times for Gazans by indirectly negotiating with Israel. So Hamas was under pressure to renew the conflict with Israel in order to remain the leader of resistance, but still to ensure the outcome, Israel ordered the killing of a few Hamas-members shortly before the truce ended.

The right buttons were pressed, Hamas called a spade a spade and allowed its fighters again to fight rockets into Israel as retaliation, and there Israel had the cassus belli, that it prepared the international community and media to swallow and that could give Israel enough time and justification to let its army free hand in Gaza, to dismantle Hamas' government there.

That's why the airforce in its first wave of attack mostly attacked civilian targets belonging to the political arm of Hamas, mosques, university, government buildings, police-headquarters. In every other context this would have been internationally condemned but the diplomatic and medial preparation served well in making the point that anything linked to Hamas were a legitimate target.

And this time the lessons from the Lebanon-war are applied: No reporters allowed in, so that the media-pressure gets minimised, all handys from israeli soldiers got taken in as to prevent different messages reaching Israel and the world through that alley, which could destabilise the support on the homefront, and no unachievable goals issued, like the destruction of Hamas, instead the end of the rocketfire for good, and with a careful use of groundforces with very good and up-to-date intelligence
information equipped, supported by helicopters and jets, trained to avoid being led into traps in order to keep casualties among israeli soldiers low, as that would only undermine the will of the israeli public to see the action through.

Different from South-Lebanon is that Gaza is small and flat, and the Hamas not nearly as trained and equipped as the Hezbollah, so success in defeating Hamas' guerillia-army is pretty easy.

The unspoken goal is to weaken and discredit Hamas (also by the huge destruction and casualties among civilans) that much that it can't claim victory and that would easily allow Fatah to take the reins in Gaza.

Taliesin
     
besson3c
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Jan 7, 2009, 11:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Macrobat View Post
The US has been in the business of supporting allies all over the world for decades, Israel is a US-ally, the LEAST-supported ally of all our allies.

You should change your screen name to "yeah, but."

Get it through your skull, if not for the US "supporting" Israel, this conflict would have been over LONG ago - to the Palestinians' great deficit. The Palestinians would have jack and shyte NOW if not for US pressure on Israel to give the concessions she has to date.

Wake up.

That is making assumptions that my arguments are based around the notion of wanting to protect the Palestinians, which they aren't. If Israel wants to obliterate the Palestinians, I think we should let that happen, but we should not support them, and consequently any ramifications of their actions are solely their responsibility.
     
Chongo
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Jan 7, 2009, 12:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Heh, if someone were lobbing bombs into the US, with that frequency, we would have nuked them by now. No ****, end of discussion.
Its not just lobbing bombs. Don't forget the homicide bombers that attack high value military targets like: street markets, pizza shops, and buses.
     
turtle777
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Jan 7, 2009, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
[obvious propaganda deleted]

Taliesin


-t
     
besson3c
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Jan 7, 2009, 12:25 PM
 
It's good to see you really maximizing your post value lately turtle777. I must say though, I'd take the Twilight posts over these sorts of pointless, inflammatory posts any time. If you are concerned about the value of content on MacNN, maybe you ought to think about your debate tactics? It's not your opinions that are the problem, it's posts that really cannot be responded to in any way that invites any sort of productive discourse...
( Last edited by besson3c; Jan 7, 2009 at 01:45 PM. )
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jan 7, 2009, 02:50 PM
 
It is my opinion that the U.S. has a much larger interest in the Arabs than the Israelis because...
1. The Arabs have something the U.S. (and everyone else) want.... oil.
2. The Arabs have a larger collective population thus a bigger market for businesses.
3. The demand for arms and ammunition is probably MUCH higher for Arabs due to the sheer number of Arab countries who want to buy (and the fact that their armed forces are so incompetent with using the latest weapons they buy)

What tangible reason could the U.S. have to support the Israelis ?

During the cold war, the Arabs had a phat supply line for weapons from the Soviets and so in 1973, due to pressure from Russia the U.S. asked it's anti-Soviet ally(Israel) to halt it's march on Damascus and Cairo. that U.S. support resulted in higher fuel prices cause thats the only real "weapon" the Arabs have (despite them having no idea how to drill for nor refine nor transport any of it) imho.

Israel attacked Hammas a month before Obama took office because no one really knows what Obamas support for Israel will be like. And so instead of hoping for the best while Hammas continues to amass weapons, they made the right decision to take out that arscenal and set the Arabs back in their quest for more weapons.

Which bring me to another point.... funny how the Arabs spend so much on buying weapons and yet have the audacity to beg for humanitarian aid and donations and accuse Israel of not letting "aid" flow into their territories. It seems like when they loose a war(which they usually invoke) they plead for peace, otherwise they dont ming waging wars.
     
subego
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Jan 7, 2009, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
3. The demand for arms and ammunition is probably MUCH higher for Arabs due to the sheer number of Arab countries who want to buy (and the fact that their armed forces are so incompetent with using the latest weapons they buy).

I don't think they like our weapons. Too fiddly.
     
turtle777
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Jan 7, 2009, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It's good to see you really maximizing your post value lately turtle777.
Did you even read what Taliesin posted ?

Or are you just knee-jerking, as soon as you see me posting

-t
     
Shaddim
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Jan 7, 2009, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Its not just lobbing bombs. Don't forget the homicide bombers that attack high value military targets like: street markets, pizza shops, and buses.
I know, probably all too well. I've had dear friends injured and murdered by such bombings.

Without reservation, I fully support Israel's right to move in and annihilate the threat. It should have been done decades ago.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Jan 7, 2009, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
ROFL. Talk about myths. The rocket attacks on Israel have never stopped for any consequential period of time for many years. They've been going on for eight years now, with few respites. 7500 of them from 2001-2009. They were going on while I was in Israel a year ago, when there was supposedly a "cease-fire." And they're continuing while the world calls for a new, one-sided, Israel-only cease-fire. Hamas and its allies cry for a cease-fire and condemn Israel while at the same time continuing to fire the rockets from civilian areas. How pathetic and phony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rocket_attacks
I think you should have elaborated... Some people are to lazy to do their own research and will have missed this very important point of yours altogether. Using your link I found this.

"Through Egyptian mediation Israel and Hamas agreed to a six month cease-fire on June 17th that went into effect on June 19, 2008 at 6:00 AM"
"December 18th Hamas declares the end of the 6 Month Truce with Israel."

Between those two dates more than 350 rocket and mortar attacks... I love truces with terrorists.
     
sek929
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Jan 7, 2009, 05:37 PM
 
I said it before and I'll say it again.

Israel has shown great restraint dealing with the elected "government" of the Palestinians, if Hamas or any other terrorist organization was lobbing rockets at us right now you'd better believe they'd be pummeled into dust by now.

Either Hamas stops firing rockets and starts work on building a livable infrastructure or they will continue to bring death and destruction to their people.

Israel has the right to defend itself, and shouldn't have to make deals with terrorists to appease the world.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Jan 8, 2009, 01:40 AM
 
One of the most wretched things in all of this, is that part of the reason this conflict goes on and on, and part of the reason for a greater number of Palestinian civilians being killed is BECAUSE of all the predictable hand-wringing of "do-gooders" in western countries that was in fact, the DESIRED EFFECT.

It's simply amazing and VERY sad- if you think that by wringing your hands over what Israel does to defend itself you're somehow helping the Palestinians, when in point of fact, it's BECAUSE of the fact that Hamas, et al knows their propaganda is effective on western hang-wringers that they use women and children as shields. It's fairly easy to see how this is a vicious cycle in large part FED by a predictable reaction from the very people who think they 'care' the most about innocent lives.

Hamas et al know this perfectly well: fire your missiles from a battleground away from civilians, and they're destroyed and your forces smashed- doesn't play to any effect on CNN. Locate them in a mosque or orphanage and your enemy can't fire back at you, or if they do and a civilian is caught in the crossfire, you can have the hand-wringers fall for the INTENDED propaganda effect, and call your opponent the aggressor even as you continue to lob missiles at their civilians.

If the tactic didn't make otherwise fairly intelligent westerners turn into blubbering 'useful idiots' Hamas couldn't USE the tactic, because it wouldn't actually be effective.

Making sure your actions cause maximum civilian damage SHOULD cause outrage against Hamas itself by anyone with half a brain, NOT Israel when it must take measures to defend itself. How obvious is this?

So drop all the "both sides are equally to blame" nonsense. Actually, do-gooders, in a very real sense, YOU are actually partially to blame. YOU'VE been allowing Hama's propaganda to work against you. Their whole goal in maximizing civilian death is exactly the reaction you're giving them. Perhaps take a little time to think about it.
( Last edited by CRASH HARDDRIVE; Jan 8, 2009 at 01:52 AM. )
     
Big Mac
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Jan 8, 2009, 02:45 AM
 
So, an Arab protester in Florida yelled at Jewish counter-protesters today to "go back to the oven." That's the type of mindset we're supposed to make peace with? I heard a report that didn't get much media attention - an Arab woman tried to force her way into a Jewish day school with a butcher knife concealed in her purse. And now I'm reading that Arab terrorists in England are openly discussing online the topic of the harm they want to bring to high profile Jews in Europe. Hamas has still been firing rockets from schools, conveniently using civilians as shields and then condemning Israel when the launch sites are shelled. But Islam's a religion of peace, right?

The Arabs of Gaza are predominately ignorant, unskilled and largely unemployable. They survive mostly on the generosity of others. They elected a terrorist government, an entity that was brought into being for one purpose: The planned destruction of Israel. They blame Jews (their hatred obviously off the scale) for their plight instead of the continual terrorism they condone. Israel uses punitive measures against Gaza, but so does Egypt, which closed its border with Gaza and wants nothing to do with them. Gaza's a festering sore, despite all of the aid it receives from Israel and other countries. Really, the only way to secure peace with Gaza is to depopulate it, as I've been saying. The people should be allowed to leave, to go to Egypt, but to never come back. Otherwise, it will just continue to be a festering sore into the future that Israel will have to routinely go in and clean out like it's doing now. It's far more compassionate and humanitarian to send them packing since they've demonstrated they can't possibly live in peace next to the Jewish state. Down with Gaza.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jan 8, 2009 at 03:02 AM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Jawbone54
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Jan 8, 2009, 04:32 AM
 
Well, now Lebanon has apparently become involved.

From BBC News

At least three rockets have been fired into northern Israel from Lebanon, raising fears that the current Israeli offensive in Gaza may spill over.

Israel's army responded with artillery. It is not clear who fired the rockets, and no-one has yet said they did it.

The exchange came as Israel reportedly launched 60 air strikes on the Gaza Strip overnight, targeting facilities used by the militant Hamas group.

Correspondents say this is a dangerous moment in the current conflict.

The fear in the past few days has been that the violence in Gaza could spread to northern Israel and the Lebanese border area, says the BBC's Mike Sergeant in Jerusalem.
     
subego
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Jan 8, 2009, 06:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
It's simply amazing and VERY sad- if you think that by wringing your hands over what Israel does to defend itself you're somehow helping the Palestinians, when in point of fact, it's BECAUSE of the fact that Hamas, et al knows their propaganda is effective on western hang-wringers that they use women and children as shields.

This.
     
Taliesin
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Jan 8, 2009, 07:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post

The jews of Israel are predominately arrogant, greedy and largely untrustable. They survive mostly on the generosity of others. They elect terrorist governments, an entity that was brought into being for one purpose: The planned destruction of palestinians. They blame muslims (their hatred obviously off the scale) for their plight instead of the continual terroristic occupation they condone. Palestinians use punitive measures against Israel, but so do most of the arab states, which closed their borders with Israel and want nothing to do with them. Israel's an oppressive sore, despite all of the aid it receives by the US and other western countries.

Really, the only way to secure peace with Israel is to depopulate it, as I've been saying. The people should be allowed to leave, to go to the US, but to never come back. Otherwise, it will just continue to be an oppressive sore into the future that the palestinians will have to routinely attack like it's doing now. It's far more compassionate and humanitarian to send them packing since they've demonstrated they can't possibly live in peace next to the palestinians. Down with Israel.
If you had been born as a muslim and palestinian, you would have said that at this point of time since you are a sympathiser of radicalism, Big Mac.

Israel is no different than Apartheit-Southafrica was in its best times, its oppressive nature is obvious but due to longterm-strategic reasons the US is backing and protecting Israel just like it was backing and protecting Southafrica then.

Some people say that Israel doesn't need backing by the US, doesn't need the billions of dollars, the delieverement of state-of-the-art-weapons, because it has a strong enough economy and can build many weapons themselves.

But they are wrong on many levels, as it very much needs the US not the least for its diplomatic and political support. Were it not for the US, Israel would have been condemned in the UN-SC numerous times over for its encroaching and oppressive behaviour, it would have been long ago forced to fulfill its obligations to respect international law and to return to the borders that are internationally recognised and to take back their settlers. Sure, Israel could ignore the calls and condemnation, but only by risking of becoming a pariah-state and being punished with severe economic sanctions and blockades, if not even military ones.

The other big service by the US is the one of strategic depth and guarantee of security. Sure Israel can build weapons and has a modern army, but should a prolonged and extensive war be at hand with a good equipped country or a few, its small geographic size would prove fatal as weapon-production-centres could be destroyed, its supply-routes encircled and an embargo installed.

The support of the US lays in its strategic depth for the case of the cases, a supply-help should production of food and weapons be endangered.

The question is not why Israel needs the US, the question is: Why is the US supporting Israel despite its oppressive and encroaching nature and more ressource-interests and bigger potential markets for the future in the arabic world?

Is it because of a nostalgic feeling, since the US sees itself as New Israel, ie. the bond between christianity and Judaism, is it because Israel is a modern capitalistic society, is it because the jewish lobbys in the US are doing a fantastic work to get congress in line and to help or hinder during election-times?

Yes, these are factors that play a role, but not a major role, despite what many leftists and arabs think. Another factor plays a much bigger role, a long-term-strategy-factor: The US has a very vital interest in the middle-east and that is oil. Oil is the one big ressource that was and is still driving the western economy, and in the middle-east was and is the most of it, easily refineable.

And until the US and the western world develops a new industry, infrastructure and economy, that works as good without oil, that interest there won't waver.

The US wants to have undisturbed flow of oil at good prices, and it's doing everything to achieve that, supporting oppressive regimes that are pro-US in the region and even building US-bases in the Gulf-states.

But what purpose does then Israel play? Israel is the local whip to get regimes on line, the intelligence-hub with agents and corroborators all over the place, and most important, the longterm-military outpost, for the case that one future day the arabs get rid of their regimes or due to popular pressure send US-troops and bases out of the middle-east and develop more independence and asking instead of cheap money for technology or other things or should they dare to embargoe the US or the western world.

Since Israel is so in need of the US for its security and political and military support, Israel would never tell the americans: "Go home, yankees!".

Israel is the US' wildcard, the joker.

Taliesin
     
turtle777
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Jan 8, 2009, 11:57 AM
 
It's simple f***ing amazing that everyone picks on teh US to stop supporting Israel.

When is anyone gonna call for Iran, Russia et. al. to stop supporting Hamas ?

-t
     
waxcrash
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Monique View Post
Palestinians had the choice to accept the new government or to live somewhere else.
And where do you suppose they go?

     
besson3c
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
It's simple f***ing amazing that everyone picks on teh US to stop supporting Israel.

When is anyone gonna call for Iran, Russia et. al. to stop supporting Hamas ?

-t
Our rhetoric with other countries is a whole other matter. What this is about is taking care of our own business and doing what *we* need to do as a country WRT these matters, and I maintain that what that is is to stop supporting either country. I would argue that we provide greater support to Israel, which is why I've been focusing on that.

The temptation to intervene thinking that we are do-gooders is nearly irresistible, I know. I've since eased off on lecturing about our score keeping, because I realize that this is sort of a natural thing to do. No matter where you live and what conflict is close or dear to you some narratives will be formed, and some opinions expressed. What we do legislatively and with our actual official foreign relations is another matter altogether.

Let's look at this another way. Forget the fact that our support and commitment to Israel hasn't helped, and think about this from a strategic position as many here have already done. If our support of Israel inflames the middle east, as great as that may feel to some there is also the issue of resource allocation. War, anti-terrorism, and foreign aid commitments are expensive. Many of these same people complain rightly about our government over spending... Our ability to wage battles and continue conflicts is a finite resource. We are weaker as a country militarily when our economy is in the tank. There is a connection here that ought to be considered.
     
Chongo
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Jan 8, 2009, 12:15 PM
 
This is a better map and shows ALL of what was "Palestine", The majority of which is now Jordan.
     
Big Mac
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Jan 8, 2009, 06:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Israel is no different than Apartheit-Southafrica was in its best times, its oppressive nature is obvious but due to longterm-strategic reasons the US is backing and protecting Israel just like it was backing and protecting Southafrica then.
That's an insult to Israel, an insult to Jews, an insult to Israel's supporters, and an insult to those who suffered under Apartheid conditions in South Africa. It's also an ignorant piece of Arab propaganda, and you're better than that, I think. It shows that you've never been to Israel and have a very shallow understanding of what goes on there if you really believe that claim because Israel is one of the most racially and ethnically diverse countries on earth. You see all shades of people walking the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Israel gives its Arab citizens full rights, including voting rights, so that their Arab representatives can denounce the existence of Israel in Knesset. Israel jails Jews for circulating simple free speech pamphlets because they're worried about Arab incitement, but Arabs are allowed to distribute despicable pamphlets against Jews and the Jewish state without any fear of similar reprisal. Arabs aren't subjected to mandatory military service, so they can go to work instead of going to war and therefore are often better positioned economically early in adulthood than their Jewish counterparts. Arabs are allowed to build whole towns without building permits from Israel - truly illegal settlements - but when Jews do the same thing Israel tears the structures down. (Israel worries about enforcing its building code laws against Arab citizens and declines to do it in fear of inciting them but doesn't think twice about doing it to its Jewish citizens.) In many ways, Arabs have more rights in Israel than Jews. The Arabists hate Israel, so they naturally compare Israel to the hated Apartheid state that South Africa formerly was, no matter how ridiculously wrong and moronic that comparison is.

Taliesin, you're a decent guy. Give it up. Give up the blatant Arab propaganda and misinformation. You're on the losing side, and most people here see through the lies you occasionally post here. Sayf is too far gone, but you're not. I think you should take some time, do some objective research, and then form some opinions not encumbered by the propaganda.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jan 8, 2009 at 06:57 PM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
ebuddy
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Jan 8, 2009, 07:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Israel gives its Arab citizens full rights, including voting rights, so that their Arab representatives can denounce the existence of Israel in Knesset. Israel jails Jews for circulating simple free speech pamphlets because they're worried about Arab incitement, but Arabs are allowed to distribute despicable pamphlets against Jews and the Jewish state without any fear of similar reprisal.


In fact I suspect there is more freedom for Arabs in Israel than in any Arab state.
ebuddy
     
 
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