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Wow, catholics pray to saints..
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Taliesin
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Feb 14, 2009, 07:28 AM
 
... I stumbled upon this article from bbc talking about valentine day and there some catholic priests advise people on the right praying to saints, namely not to pray to St Valentine but another Saint if you are still looking for your soulmate...:

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7888539.stm

Now that is a pretty shocking news (I don't really know why it didn't come to my attention before) to me, as I was totally unaware of that practice in the catholic church.

That is exactly the form of polytheism God condemns in the Quran.

Do protestants also engage in saint-praying?

Taliesin
     
Captain Obvious
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Feb 14, 2009, 08:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
... I stumbled upon this article from bbc talking about valentine day and there some catholic priests advise people on the right praying to saints, namely not to pray to St Valentine but another Saint if you are still looking for your soulmate...:

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7888539.stm

Now that is a pretty shocking news (I don't really know why it didn't come to my attention before) to me, as I was totally unaware of that practice in the catholic church.

That is exactly the form of polytheism God condemns in the Quran.

Do protestants also engage in saint-praying?

Taliesin

That's because if the priest had used the proper terminology instead of the word prayer all you people with an average IQ wouldn't have known what he meant and you'd have to of run for your dictionaries.

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Maflynn
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Feb 14, 2009, 08:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Now that is a pretty shocking news (I don't really know why it didn't come to my attention before) to me, as I was totally unaware of that practice in the catholic church.
...
Do protestants also engage in saint-praying?

Taliesin
Catholics also pray to Mary, just a normal sinner like us, who happened to be blessed by God, with the virgin birth. Praying to saints (and Mary) is not Biblical and if you want to apply the teachings of the Bible (which I do) it is idolatry. To make matters worse there's a movement in the Catholic church (only a minority) that wants to promote Mary as co-redemptrix meaning she is equal to Jesus and can save souls (this of course is heresy)

Do protestants engage in this? Not the denominations I've been with (baptist, and congregational). I choose a church based on its doctrine which must be inline with the Bible so this type of activity isn't found in the churches I've attended.

Edit:
by the way I grew catholic.
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Feb 14, 2009, 10:51 AM
 
Catholics pray to Mary as an intercessor, not exactly to Mary. Essentially, they ask Mary to pray with us on our behalf. Catholics can also include other saints in their prayers (although this tends to be less common in the United States), but it believed that Mary was particularly favored by God, hence the focus on her. Catholics do not perceive her as a deity.

It is similar to the Catholic belief that the clergy has a certain sacramental authority and can act in certain intercessory ways (confession, the eucharist, indulgences, etc.) which Protestant denominations tend to reject.

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Feb 14, 2009, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
That's because if the priest had used the proper terminology instead of the word prayer all you people with an average IQ wouldn't have known what he meant and you'd have to of run for your dictionaries.
I think the proper terminology is "reverence" as these Biblically dead or "asleep" people ('til Jesus' return according to the canonized Scripture) may act as intercessors as a unified body of simply, people. Unfortunately, it does manifest in actual prayer as well as a wealth of other (what may be deemed) questionable acts of reverence.
catholic.org
St. Jude, glorious Apostle, faithful servant and friend of Jesus, the name of the traitor has caused you to be forgotten by many, but the true Church invokes you universally as the Patron of things despaired of; pray for me, that finally I may receive the consolations and the succor of Heaven in all my necessities, tribulations, and sufferings, particularly (here make your request), and that I may bless God with the Elect throughout Eternity. Amen.

I'm personally not uneducated on Catholicism having been raised to young adulthood in the Catholic faith, spent 5 years in service as an altar boy, and 8 years in CCD. Catholics are truly conflicted in this Captain.

Granted, one cannot control aspects of religious practice like burying a plastic St. Joseph upside-down in the back yard to sell your home or attaching a St. Christopher to your dash board for travel safety just as Muslims cannot control reverence for the Hadiths, but almost every Catholic outlet you'll find in referencing these saints does so literally in context of "prayer".
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Maflynn
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Feb 14, 2009, 11:08 AM
 
The problem is the Bible tells us that Jesus our intecessor. Besides I'd rather pray to God rather then a created imperfectic person. Anytime you vare away from what the Bible says for Christian doctrine the more likely you'll get into deep weeds
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Feb 14, 2009, 11:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Do protestants also engage in saint-praying?
No, they don't.

And not all Catholics do either. I know plenty of Catholics that are much closer to Protestants in their faith, although they belong to the Catholic church.

-t
     
SpaceMonkey
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Feb 14, 2009, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Maflynn View Post
The problem is the Bible tells us that Jesus our intecessor. Besides I'd rather pray to God rather then a created imperfectic person. Anytime you vare away from what the Bible says for Christian doctrine the more likely you'll get into deep weeds
That's a legitimate view, but I'd only point out that the Catholic Church believes that saints are not simply imperfect people, but that they have been unusually transformed to a high level of holiness.

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Feb 14, 2009, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
... I stumbled upon this article from bbc talking about valentine day and there some catholic priests advise people on the right praying to saints, namely not to pray to St Valentine but another Saint if you are still looking for your soulmate...:

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7888539.stm

Now that is a pretty shocking news (I don't really know why it didn't come to my attention before) to me, as I was totally unaware of that practice in the catholic church.

That is exactly the form of polytheism God condemns in the Quran.

Do protestants also engage in saint-praying?

Taliesin
Muslims pray to a stone. What does the Quran say about that?
     
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Feb 14, 2009, 12:02 PM
 
This isn't a new development, it's one of the reasons why Protestantism took hold in the first place. People have been debating Sainthood even before Luther nailed his theses to the Church door.

Speaking of things that Protestants tend to, well, protest: look what the Catholics are indulging in again.

It is said that the new Pope wants to bring Catholicism back to its roots, even if the Catholic Church becomes smaller in the process. I'm of the opinion that he'll get exactly what he wants, because the Catholic Church in America might very well break away during our lifetimes, over issues like these. I think that American Catholics are not apt to use indulgences as an incentive to return to the confessional, because they've lost confidence in the ability of the Priesthood and of individual priests to give better advice about how to live their lives than they can get on their own....
     
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Feb 14, 2009, 12:04 PM
 
Does anyone else see an homage female genitalia there? but missing one crucial part....
     
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Feb 14, 2009, 04:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
Speaking of things that Protestants tend to, well, protest: look what the Catholics are indulging in again.
Sounds like buying carbon offsets.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Feb 14, 2009, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Sounds like buying carbon offsets.


It's more like requesting time off for good behavior.

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Feb 14, 2009, 05:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Catholics pray to Mary as an intercessor, not exactly to Mary. Essentially, they ask Mary to pray with us on our behalf. Catholics can also include other saints in their prayers (although this tends to be less common in the United States), but it believed that Mary was particularly favored by God, hence the focus on her. Catholics do not perceive her as a deity.
This is correct. They pray to the Virgin Mary, and actually quite a few other saints, believed to be particularly holy (within the confines of Catholic religious thought). In doing so, those who pray think that the object of their prayers will intercede on their behalf with Jesus and/or God. However, these intercessory prayers are NOT generally performed instead of, or as substitute for, praying to Jesus and/or God. They are in addition to those direct prayers.


NOTE: The idea of the Virgin Mary as intercessor goes back at least to the 12th century with Saint Francis of Assisi as one of the first major proponents of this role for the Virgin Mary.


<edited to add>
You can go to the link below to see an early defense of the necessity and/or benefit of intercessory prayers directed towards saints.
SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Prayer (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 83)
( Last edited by dcmacdaddy; Feb 14, 2009 at 05:43 PM. )
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Shaddim
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Feb 14, 2009, 10:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post
That's because if the priest had used the proper terminology instead of the word prayer all you people with an average IQ wouldn't have known what he meant and you'd have to of run for your dictionaries.
Explaining veneration to some people is hard, many of them are in this thread.
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Feb 14, 2009, 11:18 PM
 
While i see the whole point of this thread as bait after admitting i am a Roman Catholic, i will chime in anyway to you guys who responded.

Apparently Praying to = Worship to some people.

Either way, i think/feel 'God'/'Gaya'/'GodS'/whatever would not spite me for praying to my guardian angle/Mary/Saints/ancestors/whatever/whoever to watch over me. But i hope (s)he would spite those who kill in his/her name and their supporters.

Dogma is inconsequential. Hindus are polytheistic and have a generally peaceful religion. That's better than being monotheistic and going around killing and hating in the name of religion.

Maflynn, aren't you glad you were born into a religion which affords you the basic human right of choosing your creed and not some backwards cult that would have you stoned to death or hanged or beheaded ? I know i am.

*This post offers my opinion and not representative of the views/teachings of the Catholic Church (much like any of my posts)
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Feb 15, 2009 at 02:13 PM. )
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Feb 15, 2009, 09:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
While i see the whole point of this thread as bait after admitting i am a Roman Catholic
Trust me, the world doesn't turn around you. I wasn't even aware that you were a catholic, I thought you were agnostic or even atheistic, and even if I were aware I wouldn't attack you because of it, and certainly not in this way.

I merely stumbled on that bbc-article that surprised me with something that I should have known but strangely didn't come to my attention before and I wanted to clarify if catholic worship is polytheistic in nature.

In this thread I read some very good answers and I'm thankful for that:

The praying to the saints happens in the sense that the saints are thought to be living in the beyond, ie. not dead spiritually, aware of these prayers and having a special connection with God, so that these saints can pray for those that pray to them to God, generating a higher possibility of fulfillment of the wish, in addition to the direct prayers to God.

Wrong idea or not, this seems not to be polytheism, but as ebuddy and others pointed out, in some churches in the US and elsewhere, this concept is being practiced as actual direct prayer to these saints instead of asking for help in prayer, which would turn the practice into a form of polytheism.

In the Quran both forms are condemned by God, the direct polytheism and the intercession-prayers that are in effect a form of idolatry, and instead God calls us to direct prayers only to Him as He is aware of everything.

And yet some muslim societies and communities ask prophet Muhammad to intercess for them thinking that this intercession would help, the same thing and equally wrong.

Taliesin
     
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Feb 15, 2009, 09:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Either way, i think/feel 'God'/'Gaya'/'GodS'/whatever would not spite me for praying to my guardian angle/Mary/Saints/ancestors/whatever/whoever to watch over me. But i hope (s)he would spite those who kill in his name and their supporters.
Actually He does, since he laid that out in the 10 commandments (Exodus 20)
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
He clearly states that he alone is worthy of prayer and worship. Praying to someone other then God is in conflict to Exodus 20:3 and Exodus 20:4 states that he does have a problem with people putting things/people in front of or in place of him.
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Feb 15, 2009, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Maflynn View Post
Actually He does, since he laid that out in the 10 commandments (Exodus 20)

He clearly states that he alone is worthy of prayer and worship. Praying to someone other then God is in conflict to Exodus 20:3 and Exodus 20:4 states that he does have a problem with people putting things/people in front of or in place of him.
Actually #4 = Honor your father and your mother.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...sm/command.htm

And for the record, The Catholic Church does not regard the Saints, Mary or Angels as God(s).

Cheers

PS>>I'm probably not the best person to defend the Catholic scriptures here as i haven't studied them as much some people who want to diss the creed inorder make them feel better about theirs.

edit>>emotional post modified Peace
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Feb 15, 2009 at 10:00 AM. )
     
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Feb 15, 2009, 09:47 AM
 
Not that I necessarily have the most tolerant record around here, but I suppose some more tolerance for the divergent beliefs and practices of the respective adherents to Judaism, Christianity and Islam would generally be a good thing. I don't think Taliesin meant to offend directly but was legitimately confused about Catholic doctrine. Of course, there probably was a more diplomatic way of inquiring than the way he chose. There is a lot that can divide Jews, Christians and Muslims due to the salient differences between the religions (and I am not minimizing the distinctions), but there are also many points of underlying accord. Generally speaking, each of the religion's adherents should be left to practice as they choose within the confines of their respective religions as long as they aren't harming the other religions in the process. There is more than enough to quarrel over aside from that consideration.

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Feb 15, 2009, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Not that I necessarily have the most tolerant record around here, but I suppose some more tolerance for the divergent beliefs and practices of the respective adherents to Judaism, Christianity and Islam would generally be a good thing. I don't think Taliesin meant to offend directly but was legitimately confused about Catholic doctrine. Of course, there probably was a more diplomatic way of inquiring than the way he chose. There is a lot that can divide Jews, Christians and Muslims due to the salient differences between the religions (and I am not minimizing the distinctions), but there are also many points of underlying accord. Generally speaking, each of the religion's adherents should be left to practice as they choose within the confines of their respective religions as long as they aren't harming the other religions in the process. There is more than enough to quarrel over aside from that consideration.
I agree. My apologies.

And i do agree completely with the latter. As long as what someone believes and does, does not effect me, i'm cool with it.

And for the record, having lived in the middle east for a long time, i've heard it all and seen it all from that camp, be it in newspapers, 'opinion columns', TV and now even on message boards.

Cheers
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Feb 15, 2009 at 10:20 AM. )
     
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Feb 15, 2009, 10:38 AM
 
It's not so much "praying" to a Saint as asking them to put in a good word for you.
The Eastern Orthodox Church and Anglican churches have Saints as well. All who have died and are in heaven are saints. There are some who have been martyrs or who lead exceptional lives, and been officially recognized for those reasons and are Saints of the church. Some are recognized as individuals, and in some cases, as a group.
The Vietnamese Martyrs are one such group. (RCC)

The Romanovs are another (ROC)

Mary is the Theotokos and is honored as such.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 15, 2009, 11:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I agree. My apologies.

And i do agree completely with the latter. As long as what someone believes and does, does not effect me, i'm cool with it.

And for the record, having lived in the middle east for a long time, i've heard it all and seen it all from that camp, be it in newspapers, 'opinion columns', TV and now even on message boards.

Cheers
No need to apologize (to me, at least). It just seemed like a good idea to turn down some of the heat in this thread.

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Feb 15, 2009, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
No, they don't.

And not all Catholics do either. I know plenty of Catholics that are much closer to Protestants in their faith, although they belong to the Catholic church.

-t
While Protestants don't pray to Saints, they do have that whole Trinity thing.

3 > 1
     
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Feb 15, 2009, 12:40 PM
 
I got news for you 99.9% Christian denominations believe in the trinity not just protestants
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Feb 15, 2009, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
While Protestants don't pray to Saints, they do have that whole Trinity thing.

3 > 1
1x1x1=1
     
Wiskedjak
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Feb 15, 2009, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by chongo View Post
1x1x1=1
1+1+1=3

You can say it's "3 in 1", but it's still three. Similarly, the Greek Pantheon could be called "12 in 1"
     
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Feb 15, 2009, 08:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Maflynn View Post
I got news for you 99.9% Christian denominations believe in the trinity not just protestants
Actually, 100% do, or they aren't Christian. Not that there's anything wrong with that (heh), they just don't adhere to some of the beliefs outlined in the Nicene or Apostles' creeds. I don't consider myself a Christian because I disagree with one little word in the creeds.
( Last edited by Shaddim; Feb 15, 2009 at 08:43 PM. )
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Shaddim
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Feb 15, 2009, 08:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
1+1+1=3

You can say it's "3 in 1", but it's still three. Similarly, the Greek Pantheon could be called "12 in 1"
Nothing wrong with that. Just about all beliefs that are considered polytheistic really aren't, not if you take the time to look beyond the exterior.
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Feb 15, 2009, 08:53 PM
 
I believe Paul described all Christian believers as "saints".
     
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Feb 15, 2009, 10:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Muslims pray to a stone. What does the Quran say about that?
This looks like a vagina.
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Feb 15, 2009, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
This looks like a vagina.


I'm dyin' over here!
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Feb 15, 2009, 11:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
The praying to the saints happens in the sense that the saints are thought to be living in the beyond, ie. not dead spiritually, aware of these prayers and having a special connection with God, so that these saints can pray for those that pray to them to God, generating a higher possibility of fulfillment of the wish, in addition to the direct prayers to God.
Absolutely correct.

Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Wrong idea or not, this seems not to be polytheism
Correct. As long as the prayers are directed to Jesus and/or God via the saint then it would not qualify as polytheism.

Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
but as ebuddy and others pointed out, in some churches in the US and elsewhere, this concept is being practiced as actual direct prayer to these saints instead of asking for help in prayer, which would turn the practice into a form of polytheism.
Correct. Those who would pray to a saint INSTEAD OF to Jesus and/or God would be running afoul of the first of the Ten Commandments and could be labeled as polytheists.

Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
In the Quran both forms are condemned by God, the direct polytheism and the intercession-prayers that are in effect a form of idolatry, and instead God calls us to direct prayers only to Him as He is aware of everything. And yet some muslim societies and communities ask prophet Muhammad to intercess for them thinking that this intercession would help, the same thing and equally wrong.
Interesting. So the practice of intercessory prayers does not exist in Islam but believers will engage in the behavior anyway. Is this one of those things where an Islamic spiritual leader would "look the other way" if he obtains knowledge of such behavior on the part of a believer or is the practitioner of this type of prayer punished if found out?
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Shaddim
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Feb 16, 2009, 01:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
This looks like a vagina.
I would say, "thanks Captain Obvious", but I'd feel bad insulting Captain Obvious.
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Cipher13
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Feb 16, 2009, 02:04 AM
 
It's awesome that people think praying to one fictional being is more valid than praying to another. Seriously.
     
Shaddim
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Feb 16, 2009, 02:28 AM
 
Not as awesome as those who claim not to care about such "fictional beings", but can't seem to avoid discussions about them. Seriously.

You know the #1 failing of the modern atheist (anti-Theist?) movement? When you frequently scream "there is no God!", it only serves to further spark discussion about Theology. Thanks for helping keep this subject in the forefront, I love the wonderful debates at the local book clubs, but is that really your intention?
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Feb 16, 2009, 02:48 AM
 
I agree with you Shaddim. It seems that Cipher's comment is actually meant to reassure himself of his belief in non-belief, as much as any other reason.

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Feb 16, 2009, 03:21 AM
 
It is impossible to meet them with logic, Cipher. Lack of evidence gives them hope, any proof to the contrary only reaffirms their faith. If it were possible to prove that God doesn't exist, they would say the evidence is placed there to test their faith.
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Feb 16, 2009, 09:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
This looks like a vagina.
It does at that. But I profess my ignorance here. What is this object and why do people pray to it?
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Feb 16, 2009, 09:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by ThinkInsane View Post
It does at that. But I profess my ignorance here. What is this object and why do people pray to it?
It looks like a vagina, duh.

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Railroader
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Feb 16, 2009, 09:57 PM
 
That's quite a flawed bit of logic you have there olepigeon.
     
Railroader
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Feb 16, 2009, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Does anyone else see an homage female genitalia there? but missing one crucial part....
Did you all miss this a couple page scrolls up?
     
Chuckit
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Feb 16, 2009, 10:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ThinkInsane View Post
It does at that. But I profess my ignorance here. What is this object and why do people pray to it?
It's the Black Stone in Mecca.
Chuck
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chris v
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Feb 16, 2009, 10:26 PM
 
I prayed at the Porcelain Alter every Saturday night for over 15 years. All I can say is beware false idols.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
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Feb 16, 2009, 10:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v View Post
I prayed at the Porcelain Alter every Saturday night for over 15 years. All I can say is beware false idols.
Hope you flush afterwards.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
dcmacdaddy
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Feb 17, 2009, 01:22 AM
 
For more information on the role of the Virgin Mary in Christian thought, check out Jaroslav Pelikan's book* Mary Through the Centuries: Her Place in the History of Culture. It looks at the various roles Mary has played for believers, as well as those roles assigned to Mary by Church officials, throughout the history of Christianity and Catholicism.

Amazon.com: Mary Through the Centuries: Her Place in the History of Culture: Jaroslav Pelikan: Books


*I used this book extensively in my master's thesis on the role of Mary Magdalen* in the life of Margery Kempe, a late medieval English visionary and mystic.

**A saint-like figure in the late Middle Ages viewed similarly to the Virgin Mary by the laity of that era.
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
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ebuddy
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Feb 17, 2009, 08:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by railroader
Does anyone else see an homage female genitalia there? but missing one crucial part....
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Did you all miss this a couple page scrolls up?
I didn't miss it so much as I wasn't exactly sure what to say to your first point. What... it's missing handles?

(fwiw; I think I get your point, but it is a very disturbing one if I'm reading you right)
ebuddy
     
nonhuman
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Feb 17, 2009, 10:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
You know the #1 failing of the modern atheist (anti-Theist?) movement? When you frequently scream "there is no God!", it only serves to further spark discussion about Theology. Thanks for helping keep this subject in the forefront, I love the wonderful debates at the local book clubs, but is that really your intention?
How is this a failing? Why would anyone possibly object to further discussion? Is that not the appropriate way to deal with different viewpoints?

Certainly there are some out there who go out of their way to attack religion and the religious, but my experience is that the vast majority of atheists are interested in either one of two things: to be left alone by religion, or to encourage the religious to engage in critical thinking about their own beliefs. Unfortunately it is often the case that any hint of dissent on the existence of god(s) is taken as a mortal attack requiring retribution and, wherever possible, government intercession on the behalf of the believers.

Disagreeing is not attacking. If it is, then both sides are equally deserving of the charge. Keep in mind that one side of this issue has the full support and protection (and even participation in many cases) of the government, while the other is essentially (until recently) completely ignored or mocked and even disparaged by the government.
( Last edited by nonhuman; Feb 17, 2009 at 01:33 PM. )
     
subego
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Feb 17, 2009, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
What... it's missing handles?

Stimulas.
     
ThinkInsane
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Feb 17, 2009, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
It's the Black Stone in Mecca.
Thank you sir
Nemo me impune lacesset
     
 
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