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Israel and the Pope's Visit
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Kerrigan
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May 12, 2009, 12:03 PM
 
So the highlight of the pope's trip to the middle east, in my opinion, has been the pope's support of Jordanian King Abdullah's peace plan between Israel and its Muslim neighbors (a peace plan that, with Obama and America's backing, may finally see the end of Israeli "settlements" and the beginning of a two-state solution).

Yet some Israelis are trying to detract from this message of peace by hysterically claiming that the pope's speech in Israel was somehow "controversial."

Puh-leez.. In his speech he mentioned the "horrors of the Shoa (holocaust)" and the "voices that cry out from the past" as a result of the holocaust, and yet the speaker of the Israeli parliament is accusing him of not going far enough, saying that he ought to have personally apologized for the Holocaust.

What I found most ridiculous was the criticism that he came off too much like an "historian" -- why would that criticism be controversial in any way?

Frankly I think his critics are frightened that Christendom seems to be moving back to more friendly terms with the Islamic world, something that the far-right government of Israel does not want, especially now that important peace negotiations are on the horizon.
     
Big Mac
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May 12, 2009, 12:32 PM
 
I'm surprised at this post - I would have expected this type of post from someone on the left. The new Israeli government is not far-right, Kerrigan, not even close. And carving another Arab terror state out of that land will not bring peace. There already is a two-state solution. It's called Israel and Jordan. Beyond that, there's also a ~52:1 state solution.

There is, however, a reason why Israelis are starting to turn away from the national suicide plan foisted on their country by the world's powers. They're starting to realize that it won't bring them peace or security.
( Last edited by Big Mac; May 12, 2009 at 12:43 PM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Weyland-Yutani
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May 12, 2009, 02:12 PM
 
Israel need not worry about Christendom and the Islamic world. Never in the history of the two religions have been times of mutual respect or friendship.

Besides, to Christians nothing is more heretic than Islam. Except for Mormonism maybe. I dunno.

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Kerrigan  (op)
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May 12, 2009, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani View Post
Israel need not worry about Christendom and the Islamic world. Never in the history of the two religions have been times of mutual respect or friendship.

Besides, to Christians nothing is more heretic than Islam. Except for Mormonism maybe. I dunno.
True, to an extent. The masses of both religions always seem to be blaming one another for their problems, but there have been times throughout history when the elites (religious rulers, heads of state, etc) of powerful Christian and Islamic countries are able to get along, and forge some degree of peace between their nations. This process seems to be underway at present.
     
Weyland-Yutani
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May 12, 2009, 03:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
True, to an extent. The masses of both religions always seem to be blaming one another for their problems, but there have been times throughout history when the elites (religious rulers, heads of state, etc) of powerful Christian and Islamic countries are able to get along, and forge some degree of peace between their nations. This process seems to be underway at present.
The elite is a bit detached from reality. They all want the appearance of peace and are in appeasement mode right now. The chasm between Christendom and Islam is far far wider than anything the elite can bridge.

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Big Mac
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May 13, 2009, 05:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani View Post
Israel need not worry about Christendom and the Islamic world. Never in the history of the two religions have been times of mutual respect or friendship.
Israel should not worry about anything other than its own survival and its divine standing. Unfortunately, Israel does worry. Israel is led by a narrow, faithless and craven political elite that is more concerned about pleasing the world than doing what's right.

Besides, to Christians nothing is more heretic than Islam. Except for Mormonism maybe. I dunno.
And yet the Pope is supporting Arafat and his successor's aims, along with the United States and Europe, by supporting the so-called two-state solution. Israel's strongest allies are calling for its destruction along with its enemies; only the language differs. God's intervention is what truly sustains the country, and that's becoming clearer every day.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Taliesin
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May 13, 2009, 09:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Israel should not worry about anything other than its own survival and its divine standing. Unfortunately, Israel does worry. Israel is led by a narrow, faithless and craven political elite that is more concerned about pleasing the world than doing what's right.


And yet the Pope is supporting Arafat and his successor's aims, along with the United States and Europe, by supporting the so-called two-state solution. Israel's strongest allies are calling for its destruction along with its enemies; only the language differs. God's intervention is what truly sustains the country, and that's becoming clearer every day.
Why do you worry so much? If the current peace-plan of pursuing the two-state-solution (personally I much prefer a one-state-solution, but who knows maybe after a few centuries in two states sentiments are cooled down enough and relations improved that a one-state-solution can be realistically looked upon) means that the world's powers are destroying Israel, you should be happy about it, shouldn't you?

According to some jewish interpretations of the torah, God would personally intervene and save the defenseless ( so you better convince your rulers to give up all weapons and nukes to prepare for God's intervention) Israel.

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
Besides, to Christians nothing is more heretic than Islam.
To jews nothing is more heretic than christianity.
To muslims nothing is more heretic than whatever religion came after its own revelation...

Taliesin
     
Chongo
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May 13, 2009, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I'm surprised at this post - I would have expected this type of post from someone on the left. The new Israeli government is not far-right, Kerrigan, not even close. And carving another Arab terror state out of that land will not bring peace. There already is a two-state solution. It's called Israel and Jordan. Beyond that, there's also a ~52:1 state solution.

There is, however, a reason why Israelis are starting to turn away from the national suicide plan foisted on their country by the world's powers. They're starting to realize that it won't bring them peace or security.
The middle east would be awash in blood feuds if it were not for the existence of Israel. Their mutual hatred is what binds them, "The enemy of my enemy..."
     
dcmacdaddy
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May 19, 2009, 08:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Israel should not worry about anything other than its own survival and its divine standing.
SNIP
God's intervention is what truly sustains the country, and that's becoming clearer every day.
If the Jewish God--Is this the same God of Abraham the Christian and Muslims believe in--really is looking out for Israel then the Jewish Israelis ought to just go ahead and begin the process of creating Eretz Yisrael by force. They ought to go ahead and start forcing out all non-Jews from Israel and pushing out the edges of the Israeli borders to the extent of the biblical Israel promised to them by God. Surely, when the Israelis do this He will intervene on their behalf to make it happen.
Won't He?
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
dcmacdaddy
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May 19, 2009, 08:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
To jews nothing is more heretic than christianity.
To muslims nothing is more heretic than whatever religion came after its own revelation...
Excellent point.


Although, I would modify it slightly to say that "To Religion X nothing is more heretic than whatever religion came after its own revelation".
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
Chongo
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May 19, 2009, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
If the Jewish God--Is this the same God of Abraham the Christian and Muslims believe in--really is looking out for Israel then the Jewish Israelis ought to just go ahead and begin the process of creating Eretz Yisrael by force. They ought to go ahead and start forcing out all non-Jews from Israel and pushing out the edges of the Israeli borders to the extent of the biblical Israel promised to them by God. Surely, when the Israelis do this He will intervene on their behalf to make it happen.
Won't He?
There is debate as to whether or not Allah is the G*d od Abraham, the G*d of Issac, and the G*d of Jacob.
     
   
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