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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Israel steals and withholds water from the palestinians...

Israel steals and withholds water from the palestinians...
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Taliesin
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Oct 27, 2009, 09:02 AM
 
Nowadays Israel has finally lost its mask with which it protected itself from western criticism.
Its criminal and oppressive bahaviour has come to the attention of the mainstream-press and -public in the west.

The thoroughly detailed Goldstone-report destroyed the myth of the "clean" army fighting terrorists with methods that protect civilians even at the expense of the own security.

Its encroaching settler-activity in the Westbank and East-Jerusalem espescially during "peace-negotiating"-phases have been exposed.

The violence of israeli settlers against palestinian farmers have been captured on video (thanks to technology this longstanding issue couldn't be denied anymore).

The practice of some israeli hospitals to illegaly extract organs from killed palestinians and to sell them has been exposed.

Today we can add another aspect of the israeli oppression against palestinians in the occupied territories that has finally reached the mainstream-attention:
Amnesty International condemns Israel for stealing water from the palestinians living in the occupied territories:
In a report, the human rights group says Israeli water restrictions discriminate against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank.

It says that in Gaza, Israel's blockade has pushed the already ailing water and sewage system to "crisis point".

Israel says the report is flawed and the Palestinians get more water than was agreed under the 1990s peace deal.

'Basic need'

In the 112-page report, Amnesty says that on average Palestinian daily water consumption reaches 70 litres a day, compared with 300 litres for the Israelis.

It says that some Palestinians barely get 20 litres a day - the minimum recommended even in humanitarian emergencies.

While Israeli settlers in the West Bank enjoy lush gardens and swimming pools, Amnesty describes a series of Israeli measures it says are discriminating against Palestinians:

* Israel has "entirely appropriated the Palestinians' share of the Jordan river" and uses 80% of a key shared aquifer
* West Bank Palestinians are not allowed to drill wells without Israeli permits, which are "often impossible" to obtain
* Rainwater harvesting cisterns are "often destroyed by the Israeli army"


# Israeli soldiers confiscated a water tanker from villagers who were trying to remain in land Israel had declared a "closed military area"
# An unnamed Israeli soldier says rooftop Palestinian household water tanks are "good for target practice"
# Much of the land cut off by the West Bank barrier is land with good access to a major aquifer
# Israeli military operations have damaged Palestinian water infrastructure, including $6m worth during the Cast Lead operation in Gaza last winter
# The Israeli-Egyptian blockade of Gaza has "exacerbated what was already a dire situation" by denying many building materials needed for water and sewage projects.

The report also noted that the Palestinian water authorities have been criticised for bad management, quoting one audit that described the sector as in "total chaos".

"Water is a basic need and a right, but for many Palestinians obtaining even poor-quality, subsistence-level quantities of water has become a luxury that they can barely afford," Amnesty's Donatella Rovera said.

"Israel must end its discriminatory policies, immediately lift all the restrictions it imposes on Palestinians' access to water."

'Fair share'

Ms Rovera also urged Israel to "take responsibility for addressing the problems it created by allowing Palestinians a fair share of the shared water resources".
Source: BBC NEWS | Middle East | Report: Palestinians denied water

Taliesin
     
turtle777
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Oct 27, 2009, 09:12 AM
 
Go Israel!

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Doofy
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Oct 27, 2009, 10:11 AM
 
Perhaps if the Palestinians stopped being such a bunch of {swear word} who fire rockets into Israeli civilian areas, things would be a little more minty down there.

Or you could send Barry to sort it out. He's good at this "peace" thing, so I hear.
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Atheist
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Oct 27, 2009, 10:33 AM
 
I wish someone would just nuke the entire area and get it over with... but the survivors would just find another piece of land to fight over. Maybe it is best to just let them slowly torture each other for the next millennia or two.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 27, 2009, 11:36 AM
 
I didn't bother to read your propaganda, Taliesin. But how can the Israelis steal their own property? If the Arabs don't like how they're treated they need to leave and go to any Arab or Muslim majority country they want on earth, of which there are many to choose from. Besides, there's no such thing as a Palestinian, and no such thing as Palestinian water. Sorry. The term Palestinian as it refers to Arabs connotes the wholesale rejection of Israel in favor of continual warfare and terrorism. The label Palestinian is morally equivalent to the Al Qaeda label. A non-people made up of disparate Arab groups, which are united only in their illogical hatred of the Jewish people. What a shameful, ignoble title, derived by the Romans from the cursed Philistines after they committed genocide against my people who just wanted to live in their land, as they do today.

And moreover, Arabs steal water from the Kineret and don't pay a cent for it, and they wire their illegally built houses with free electricity. If Israel is repossessing some wet stuff, it's long overdue.

Like turtle said, Go Israel! It's far overdue high time to end the Arab occupation of the land of Israel and of the Temple Mount, and G-d willing it will end speedily.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Oct 28, 2009 at 10:21 AM. )

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olePigeon
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Oct 27, 2009, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
I wish someone would just nuke the entire area and get it over with... but the survivors would just find another piece of land to fight over. Maybe it is best to just let them slowly torture each other for the next millennia or two.
You want to nuke the birthplace of Christianity and Islam? That's a sure way to start WWIII.
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Doofy
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Oct 27, 2009, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
You want to nuke the birthplace of Christianity and Islam? That's a sure way to start WWIII.
What's Mecca got to do with it?
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Atheist
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Oct 27, 2009, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
You want to nuke the birthplace of Christianity and Islam? That's a sure way to start WWIII.
After living in the Third World for 5 years my perspective has changed a lot. I've little patience for most things and virtually no compassion left. So yes, let's nuke the bastards.
     
besson3c
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Oct 27, 2009, 12:26 PM
 
What evidence is there that supports the notion that our taking sides has helped? I say we do not get any more involved over there. It's been a while since any sort of US involvement in any foreign affairs has ended nicely anyway.
     
lpkmckenna
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Oct 27, 2009, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Nowadays Israel has finally lost its mask with which it protected itself from western criticism. Its criminal and oppressive bahaviour has come to the attention of the mainstream-press and -public in the west.
Wait, I've heard this one before...
The violence of israeli settlers against palestinian farmers have been captured on video (thanks to technology this longstanding issue couldn't be denied anymore).
This kind of criminal activity exists everywhere. The state of Israel handles militant settlers with kid-gloves not as political policy, but lack of political spine. Israeli politicians who come down "too hard" on militant settlers get smeared in the polls. Spineless politicians suck, but spinelessness isn't deliberate malice.
The practice of some israeli hospitals to illegaly extract organs from killed palestinians and to sell them has been exposed.
Hospital names, please? Citations matter here.
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I didn't bother to read your propaganda, Taliesin. But how can the Israelis still (sic? steal?) their own property? If the Arabs don't like how they're treated they need to leave and go to any Arab or Muslim majority country they want on earth, of which there are many to choose from.
You are an embarrassment to Jews and Israelis everywhere. Imagine an American telling an Apache to leave for Mexico.
Besides, there's no such thing as a Palestinian, and no such thing as Palestinian water. Sorry. The term Palestinian as it refers to Arabs connotes the wholesale rejection of Israel in favor of continual warfare and terrorism.
Uh, when the UN legitimated Israel is also legitimated Palestine. Partition_of_Palestine If Palestinian isn't legitimate, neither is Israeli.
The label Palestinian is morally equivalent to the Al Qaeda label.
Disgusting bile.
A non-people united made up of disparate Arab groups, which are united only in their illogical hatred of the Jewish people.
No, the area has been called Palestine for millennia, ergo, the people who live there are Palestinians. "Non-people?" [rolleyes] When anti-Israeli protesters call you Nazis, try not to prove their point for them.
What a shameful, ignoble title, derived by the Romans from the cursed Philistines after they committed genocide against my people who just wanted to live in their land, as they do today.
Now you need to rewrite the history of 2000 years ago too? The Jewish-Roman wars had nothing to do with genocide.
It's far overdue high time to end the Arab occupation of the land of Israel and of the Temple Mount, and G-d willing it will end speedily.
G-d doesn't give a r-t's a-s about Israel or any other line in the sand.

As a Canadian, I watch American news with amusement; where do nutbars like "birthers" and "teabaggers" and "dominionists" come from? Then I remember that Israel has even worse fringe nutbars than that.

UPDATE: the Temple Mount is never going back into Jewish hands. Ever. Destroying the Dome of the Rock would be the worst cultural genocide since the destruction of the Buddhas_of_Bamyan. It is utterly beyond the pale to suggest otherwise.
( Last edited by lpkmckenna; Oct 27, 2009 at 04:06 PM. )
     
lpkmckenna
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Oct 27, 2009, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Perhaps if the Palestinians stopped being such a bunch of {swear word} who fire rockets into Israeli civilian areas, things would be a little more minty down there.
Yes, all Palestinians are terrorists. Just like all Israelis are fascists. Helpful point of view, sure.
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
I wish someone would just nuke the entire area and get it over with... but the survivors would just find another piece of land to fight over. Maybe it is best to just let them slowly torture each other for the next millennia or two.
Yes, solve all that violence with ever worse violence. That always fixes the problem.
     
Chuckit
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Oct 27, 2009, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Yes, all Palestinians are terrorists. Just like all Israelis are fascists. Helpful point of view, sure.
You just took what he said and turned it into a bizarre absolute.
Chuck
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lexapro
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Oct 27, 2009, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
The practice of some israeli hospitals to illegaly extract organs from killed palestinians and to sell them has been exposed.

Taliesin
OMG this is too funny! How does it feel to be a bold face liar?
     
olePigeon
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Oct 27, 2009, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
You just took what he said and turned it into a bizarre absolute.
Oh, I change everything you say?!
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lpkmckenna
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Oct 27, 2009, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
You just took what he said and turned it into a bizarre absolute.
No, I didn't. He said "the Palestinians." If he cared about accuracy, "Hamas and Fatah" or "militant Palestinian groups" would work.

If cops were commenting on Asian gang violence, would suggesting that "the Asians are getting more violent in our city" work just as well? When discussing race-sensitive issues, it's stupid not to be accurate.

Besides, we know Doofy's not gonna recommend a sensible solution to this issue. He's just trolling, and doesn't give a crap anyway.

BTW, if you're gonna quote Dilbert, understand the quote first.
     
Doofy
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Oct 27, 2009, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
No, I didn't. He said "the Palestinians." If he cared about accuracy, "Hamas and Fatah" or "militant Palestinian groups" would work.

If cops were commenting on Asian gang violence, would suggesting that "the Asians are getting more violent in our city" work just as well? When discussing race-sensitive issues, it's stupid not to be accurate.
OK, so if we're going to be accurate, let's have a look at the thread title. How does a piece of land steal water?

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Besides, we know Doofy's not gonna recommend a sensible solution to this issue.
I just did. Stop firing rockets into Israel. It's easy.

Fact is, the muslims are pissed that the Jews are on "their land", so won't stop until they're driven off. Thus, there's actually only two real-world solutions: Kill all the muslims or kill all the Jews.
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Chuckit
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Oct 27, 2009, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
No, I didn't. He said "the Palestinians."
And then you said "all Palestinians," thus turning a nonspecific claim into a very specific, universal claim.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Besides, we know Doofy's not gonna recommend a sensible solution to this issue. He's just trolling, and doesn't give a crap anyway.
No, I think Doofy's right. The root problem is that Palestine either will not or cannot stop its people from attacking Israel. Here's a sensible solution: The Palestinian leaders go to Israel and say, "OK, we want peace, but we understand that it can't happen as long as our people are shooting rockets into your country. So help us weed out these people who are acting against their country's best interest."

Or at least, it would be sensible if the Palestinian leaders actually wanted peaceful coexistence.
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lpkmckenna
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Oct 27, 2009, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
OK, so if we're going to be accurate, let's have a look at the thread title. How does a piece of land steal water?
Israel is a state. The state of Israel is accused of stealing water. Don't they teach english in England?
I just did. Stop firing rockets into Israel. It's easy.
How is a solution that expects nothing out of Israel sensible? It won't stop people like Big Mac, who won't be happy until every square inch of the West Bank and Gaza are Israeli territory. It isn't fear of terrorism that drives him, just plain biblical nonsense.

I do think not firing rockets would be sensible, but the rocketeers aren't sensible people. Imagine someone suggesting the solution to insanity is people choosing to be sane, or the solution to crime is for criminals to be nicer. While waiting for the terrorists, insane, and criminals to find Jesus, what do the sensible people do in the meantime?
Fact is, the muslims are pissed that the Jews are on "their land", so won't stop until they're driven off.
That's funny, that's exactly what Big Mac thinks, with "muslims" and "jews" reversed. Neither point of view is relevant.
Thus, there's actually only two real-world solutions: Kill all the muslims or kill all the Jews.
Like I said, you're just here to troll.
     
Doofy
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Oct 27, 2009, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Like I said, you're just here to troll.
Well hey, you and all those Nobel-winning great minds out there come up with another solution. One that works this time and isn't identical to all the other solutions which have been attempted over the years.

Fact is you can't, because those two solutions are the only two which will work in the real world. Thus, the conflict will continue indefinitely.
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lpkmckenna
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Oct 27, 2009, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
And then you said "all Palestinians," thus turning a nonspecific claim into a very specific, universal claim.
They don't teach english in the US either? The "all" is my statement is superfluous. This means the same thing: Yes, Palestinians are terrorists. Just like Israelis are fascists. Helpful point of view, sure.
No, I think Doofy's right. The root problem is that Palestine either will not or cannot stop its people from attacking Israel. Here's a sensible solution: The Palestinian leaders go to Israel and say, "OK, we want peace, but we understand that it can't happen as long as our people are shooting rockets into your country. So help us weed out these people who are acting against their country's best interest."

Or at least, it would be sensible if the Palestinian leaders actually wanted peaceful coexistence.
If the Palestinian Authority invited Israeli troops into Gaza or the West Bank for the purpose of weeding out terrorists, we would see the exact same result we see in Iraq and Afghanistan: even more terrorists, attacking the PA.

If Israel wants peace, they should:
1) return their capital to Tel Aviv;
2) turn over Jerusalem to an international body, like the original plan;
3) buy out the settlers, or if they won't sell, evict them;

Lots of details missing, but my point is: you can generate goodwill in the Muslim world, if you want it. After all, everybody knows that pointlessly annexing Jerusalem and foot-dragging on the settler issue created lots and lots of ill-will.

It's important to remember that the Palestinians are being used as pawns by Syria and Iran and others. They don't care about Palestinians, they just want to score points with their populace, and distract from problems at home. The more magnanimously Israel behaves, the harder it is for the Hamas and Fatah financiers around the world.

The war on terror can be overcome the same way the war on drugs can be: starve the gangs. Trying to solve either with guns and ammo has been a waste of time and life.

Israel could enforce peace, by conquering the entire Palestinian region (like Canada and America and China and recently Sri Lanka did), but only if they want to be monsters. We had to kill a lot of Indians to "earn" this land, but we sold our souls to do it. Too bad that Big Mac is so happy to do so.
     
Doofy
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Oct 27, 2009, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Lots of details missing, but my point is: you can generate goodwill in the Muslim world, if you want it.
They don't teach international relations up there in Canada then, I take it?
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BadKosh
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Oct 27, 2009, 08:11 PM
 
Good!! I hope the Israeli's find a way to take the Palestinian's air too. Good riddance to the human cockroach's! The muslim world needs to grow up.
     
besson3c
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Oct 27, 2009, 08:32 PM
 
BadKosh, here's a suggestion for you: If you are going to say something this racist, hateful, and offensive, at least take the time to write with proper grammar. Hint: apostrophes do not make words plural.
     
ebuddy
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Oct 28, 2009, 06:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
How is a solution that expects nothing out of Israel sensible? It won't stop people like Big Mac, who won't be happy until every square inch of the West Bank and Gaza are Israeli territory. It isn't fear of terrorism that drives him, just plain biblical nonsense.
Brother, I thought you had been fairly even-handed in how you addressed posters on both sides of this issue which is not always easy to do. While I disagreed with some of your points, I was still with ya... until the "just plain biblical nonsense" piece. There's no doubt the Jewish connection to the region has roots in Judaism, but the issue has gone well beyond the biblical premise. It is now about multiple, failed "land for peace" arrangements over territory the size of New Jersey; a territory wrought with strife and flanked by hostility since it claimed statehood, now with an enemy turning to a politically-motivated "divide and conquer" strategy.

I'm not trying to pretend I'm without a bias on this issue, but statements relegating disagreement to dogma seems a copout to me.
  • When someone says the term "Palestinians" is a misnomer, they're citing the fact that this has been used not as a term referencing all peoples of the former Palestine, but of a people attempting self-determination through a comparatively recent claim to the region. A claim bolstered by those who use "refugees" as pawns and intergovernmental policy with a well-documented history of self-service in that region.
  • If there is religious doctrinal nonsense, it is not reflected in the 51% secular Israelis who oppose concessions in Jerusalem for example.
  • Peace is going to require concessions in concert. If one party is conceding and the other party is not, there will be no peace.

Israel could enforce peace, by conquering the entire Palestinian region (like Canada and America and China and recently Sri Lanka did), but only if they want to be monsters. We had to kill a lot of Indians to "earn" this land, but we sold our souls to do it. Too bad that Big Mac is so happy to do so.
We killed a lot of Indians to "earn" this land to be sure. Of course, not unlike the tribes who "earned" the land from tribes prior. Unfortunately, it is the way of things. If the Apache tribes you mentioned earlier insisted on occupying Washington DC and repeatedly lobbed missiles into our populace, they likely wouldn't have a collection of reservations that combined, dwarf the amount of land granted the Israeli in the Middle East. Israel cannot have peace as long as it exists. Period. Why? Because Palestinians are being used as pawns by Iran and Syria and others.

Moving Israeli settlements to another pocket of land within a region the size of New Jersey will solve absolutely nothing, but splitting them in three to facilitate their own demise. While the notion of bloodshed and conquest is detestable, I'm not seeing the benefit of "land for peace" concessions either.
ebuddy
     
Hawkeye_a
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Oct 28, 2009, 07:47 AM
 
Chhhhhhiiiiilllllll people..... why do i fell like the solution to this problem/conflict lies in that thread about legalizing reefer ?

*sign the thing i hate about these threads is that you have a brief period of passionate (usually over the top) exchange, then everyone gets tired and leaves instead of delving deeper. anyway.....

lpkmckenna, you seem to be taking the 'populist' view of siding with the poor helpless Arabs (who surprisingly are tremendously resourceful at getting their hands on ballistic ammunition). Generally speaking (and i'm not trying to insult you) your opinion is based on emotion in the short term imo. If you do have the time, have a look at the history of the region over the past 100 years, get familiar with the players involved, their agendas, their motives, their goals and most important their willingness to compromise for peace.

I've lived in the Arab/Muslim world for, close to half my life, and i have no reservations when saying that i haven't come across a more racist/sexist culture ever (and i've lived all over the world). Here we are in the 21st century, and you still have "honor killings", assassinations of cartoonists and writes, and my favorite....flogging for a woman who had a beer or something lol.....

Either way, personal opinion aside, at the very basic level, the issue of Israel and the Arabs (no there is no such thing as Palestine) comes down to laws and legality.... the moral issue is nullified when you consider:

-The number of Arabs and Jews displaced from the other side of the border when Israel got independence were about the same. And the only difference was the way the two sides CHOOSE to handle it. Israel integrated the Jewish refugees willingly, whereas the Arabs decided to use their refugees as a proxy to try and sway world opinion. Unfortunately for them, those of us who actually read up on the diplomacy/politics/legal-process that shaped the borders of Israel, notice one thing right away..... Israel has always compromised for peace, and the Arabs always rejected peace in the hope of having it all for themselves.

-Israel's area is ~8500 sqmi, The 11 huge fat oil-laden Arab states which reject the Palestineans have close to 4million sqmi. Israel throughout it's entire history, has been willing to sign a final peace treaty with the Arabs around it, given the borders at those time, the Arabs never were and are still not willing to accept the current frontieers. So is the issue here about Israeli expansion or of Arab expansion ?

-Israel has even compromised and offered the Palestineans a state TWICE, and each time they rejected it. Which makes you wonder.... who really wants peace, stability and security in the region?

-Due in large part to Oil to sway U.N. opinion, the Arabs have enjoyed an air of appeasement.... a luxury Israel doesn't have. If it wern't for oil, Israel would currently be the entire land promised to them before WWII.

Ta-lie-sin has shown on every occasion that his view is purely one sided, his side... i cant really blame him as at one point i was subjected to the same racist propaganda and brainwashing he is. He wants "freedom" for the poor Palestinians, but only if it was at Israel's expense.... nary a whisper that their suffering could easily be alleviated by any of the Muslim/Arab states that stretch from western Africa to south east asia........ once the will to do so existed. Why should they ? They had no problem expelling an equal number of Jews and claiming what was left behind. Not a word is mentioned about black September, of the possibility of Egypt regaining control of the Gaza stip and it's inhabitants. It's similar to Pakistan fighting to "free"*cough*claim*cough* Kashmir imo.

Also, if he wants to make such a big deal about water..... i wonder if he'd have a problem if Israel and the U.S. cut off all the aid and supplies they pour into that blackhole everyday ?

My recommendation for a solution(if both factions are serious about peace and not land):
-Israel withdraws from the west bank, treaty or not. Establish the current frontiers (west bank, gaza, Golan, Jerusalem, etc) as a permanent red line. (This would not go against previously signed treaties, i think). What the Palestinians do on their side of the red line is their problem....cross the line tho and i'd be running for the bomb shelters if i were them.
-Israel implements equality for citizens...by having same laws for Muslims and Jews and Christians regarding service in the armed forces (currently Muslims are exempt i believe, and i for one think that is racist). All Israeli citizens, like citizens from any country regardless of faith, swear a-legions to the country.... or...leave.
-The arabs states establish full diplomatic relations with Israel, on the current frontiers...and let go of the 1967 bs they keep chanting about. take it as a lesson NOT to illegally provoke a war.

As far as "Stealing water"..... get a clue, Israel is within it's rights and so are the Palestinians as per the treaties signed, if the Arabs who signed it didn't account for population growth , thats not Israel's fault.

Finally imo, If the Arabs are incapable of diplomacy or bartering a better deal without throwing a tantrum(war) well....though. it's not Israel's or anyone else's responsibility to pull them into the 21st century.

My personal opinion..... if i had to choose between:
- a medieval society, whose laws are rooted in antiquity, openly racist towards to likes of others, where women and non-believers are discriminated against.
or
-one which established a real democracy, with minorities topping 20% (more than ANY muslim nation mind you), where women and men enjoy equal opportunities and freedom of worship to all it's citizens without having to resort to special 'favors' from bribed officials...

Heck, you have to be pretty disillusioned or brainwashed to pick the former imo.

Cheers
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Oct 30, 2009 at 11:42 PM. )
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Oct 28, 2009, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Hospital names, please? Citations matter here.
Many people react with total disbelief when confronted with the accusation of illegal organ-trade- and -theft by Israel. Either one is accused of being a liar as happened in this thread or as being antisemitic or both, but nonetheless the illegal organ-trade and -theft is true and a very lucrative business.

Israel is not the only country involved in illegal organ-trade, the west is involved as well as well as some rich arabs that travel the world and buy organs from poor people.

But the dimensions are provedly by far the biggest in Israel.

The reasons are multifold:
Israel's citizens don't like to donate organs. Statitics show that Israel has the lowest donation-willingness in the world. That posed and still poses a major poblem for Israel's healthcare. To circumvent this problem, Israel's government supports financially operations outside of Israel, which created a major organ-tourism with Israel's citizens travelling the world and seeking to buy organs.

But this is only half the story and up to that point not illegal in itself, only despicable. But where there is a growing need, business-interests don't wait long, agents and rings formed to help in organising the organs. Rabbis organised with the intention of saving jewish life international organ-trade-rings, wherein poor people got paid a sum from 1-10,000$ for an organ like a kidney and sold for 160,000$.

Jewish doctors were involved who shared the secular idea that after the holocaust the world owes the jews these organs.

Of course after the poor people donated their organs they were left in the cold with the sideeffects without being observed by a doctor often leading to a situation even worse than the dire economic situation that convinced them to sell their organs.

Up until this point the organ-trade involved organs like kidneys and other "non-essential-ones", but what about the jewish patients who needed livers, lungs or hearts?

To get these the donators have to be dead or at least terminally ill, so where should the organ-traders get them, of course they travelled the world's morgue's and mortuaries and ambulances and buying organs whereever possible, usually in thirdworld-countries where corruption is high like Asia or Southamerica or even East-Europe, but it was never enough...

what to do then? Why looking in the distance when the source to help out is so near? For decades palestinians complained that the ones being detained or killed were robbed of organs. The merely detained ones of course only robbed of organs that weren't life-supporting, but in the deceased ones anything was and is ready to be harvested.

In Israel any killed palestinian is automatically autopsied, since it is an unnatural death, eventhough the cause of the death is often completely obvious. During that process organs get taken out of the body but sometimes not returned. To be exact this happened with jewish victims during the eighties as well until jweish families of the victims brought it to light and caused a scandal leading to the stoppage of the practice, at least in the case of jews. Palestinians don't and didn't have that pressure-lobby and are still open to these abuses.
Often, espescially during war or during the intifadas, killed palestinians were robbed of their organs right there on the battlefield with doctors cutting organs out, maybe for the freshness, who knows.

What motivated these acts?

There is a religious side and secular side to the motivation. The religious side is covered by the talmud that states that jewish life were infinitely more worth than non-jewish life:
In 1996, Jewish Week reported that Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh, a leader of the Lubavitch sect of Judaism and the dean of a religious Jewish school in a West Bank settlement, stated: “If a Jew needs a liver, can you take the liver of an innocent non-Jew passing by to save him? The Torah would probably permit that.” Ginzburgh elaborated: “Jewish life has infinite value. There is something infinitely more holy and unique about Jewish life than non-Jewish life.” [The Jewish Week, April 26, 1996, pp. 12, 31]
While most Israelis strenuously repudiate such beliefs, Rabbi Moshe Greenberg, an Israeli scholar on Jewish scriptural views on racism and ethnic chauvinism, has said, “The sad thing is, these statements are in our books.” Greenberg, who was a professor at Hebrew University, pointed out that such Talmudic texts were “purely theoretical” at the time of their writing, because Jews did not have the power to carry them out. Now, he pointed out, “they’re carried over into circumstances where Jews have a state and are empowered.”
The secular side is covered by the idea that after the holocaust the world owes the jews...

oh and there is of course the business-side as well.

All this and more can be read up here:

Israeli Organ Trafficking and Theft: From Moldova to Palestine

Taliesin

P.S.:
@Hawkeye_a:
Yes, the thirdworld, including (major) parts of the islamic world have societies with medieval traits, but so did the western world at its time, and like the latter the former have the right to take their time to develop.

And while the western world had the freedom and time to develop mostly undisturbed into the state it is in now, and has therefore aspects that are better than in the thirdworld, more modern, more tolerant, not all is rosy and well, as on the other hand it developed into moral bankruptcy and spiritual emptiness.

You have left the "medieval " societies of the middle-east, where you experienced ignorance and intolerance, and now you have embraced the same ideology of supremacy that justified all conquerors and oppressors in history, and with it you are defending Israel's actions against the palestinians, you choose the supposedly democratic Israel ( tell me, how democratic can Israel be, when it occupies and oppresses millions of palestinians?) over the supposedly medieval palestinians and justify the crimes of the one against the other on that basis.

That's a very wrong basis, as it is wrong to deny people their legitimate rights because their societies have not developed yet to the point of the other, and it is as wrong to defend and justify the crimes of the other simply because it has reached the modern development-level you can identify best with.
     
nonhuman
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Oct 28, 2009, 11:56 AM
 
I hear that we Jews also kill Christian babies and drink their blood. Oh, did you know we also have horns?
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 12:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
I hear that we Jews also kill Christian babies and drink their blood. Oh, did you know we also have horns?
You are an evil JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO? AAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!!!
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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Oct 28, 2009, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Many people react with total disbelief when confronted with the accusation of illegal organ-trade- and -theft by Israel. Either one is accused of being a liar as happened in this thread or as being antisemitic or both, but nonetheless the illegal organ-trade and -theft is true and a very lucrative business.

Seriously, Taliesin, I am laughing so hard! If it wasn't so funny and obviously your version of humor, then I'd simply have to assume you're a bold face liar and anti-semite. But since you are not the latter two then you must be the one remaining thing- a comedian!
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 08:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
BadKosh, here's a suggestion for you: If you are going to say something this racist, hateful, and offensive, at least take the time to write with proper grammar. Hint: apostrophes do not make words plural.
In other words: you're at the end of arguments...

-t
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 08:29 PM
 
Ahhh, the classic Fox style "if he doesn't face me, he either has nothing to say, has admitted defeat, or is scared of me" tactic.

There is such a thing as not wanting to waste time, you know.
( Last edited by besson3c; Oct 28, 2009 at 10:20 PM. )
     
turtle777
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Oct 28, 2009, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Ahhh, the classic Fox style "if he doesn't face me, he either has nothing to say or has admitted defeat" tactic.

There is such a thing as not wanting to waste time, you know.
So you consider critiquing someone's grammar as a means to devalue their content as a legitimate means of discourse ?

Sad.

-t
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 08:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Many people react with total disbelief when confronted with the accusation of illegal organ-trade- and -theft by Israel. Either one is accused of being a liar as happened in this thread or as being antisemitic or both, but nonetheless the illegal organ-trade and -theft is true and a very lucrative business.
All this and more can be read up here:
Israeli Organ Trafficking and Theft: From Moldova to Palestine
There's a particularly interesting profile on the widely-debunked author of this hit piece; Alison Weir in an Anti-Defamation League article here. When the author is associated with CNI, WOJ, Al Awda, and a host of other well-known proponents of the Palestinian right of return, there is an apparent conflict of interest. It follows that she must demonize Israel at all costs. After all, the blood libel has led to a great deal of hostility toward Jews through pogroms, mass slayings and expulsions for centuries.

How is Alison Weir debunked you might ask? Well... for starters; the rags that broke much of this nonsense were Swedish tabloids. Medical experts overwhelmingly dismiss these accounts as fraudulent for the simple fact that the theft of organs from the dead for use in transplants, as alleged in many of these stories, is medically impossible. For example, one account details the events surrounding a Palestinian teen who was shot by Israeli soldiers in the chest, then in each leg, then once ‘in the stomach’ in order to steal his organs. The accounts given by this supposed "eye witness" would've destroyed the organs through hemorrhaging and infection rendering them entirely useless for transplant per Andrea Meyerhoff MD. Of course, her expertise wasn't necessary in this particular account because family members (also alleged witnesses) denied the claim. Much of Weir's accounts reference “Israel Shamir” whom she falsely claims is an Israeli when in fact this is the alias of a well-known Swede of Russian descent associated with Russian ultra-nationalists and began his journalism under the wings of an anti-Semite, Aleksandr Prokhanov.

I'm sorry Taliesin, the author who wrote the article you cite is so full of holes she doesn't hold any water my friend. This isn't "attack the messenger", this is "facts indicating a woeful lack of credibility complete with detailed debunkings". All this and more can be read up on her here.
ebuddy
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 09:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Chhhhhhiiiiilllllll people..... why do i fell like the solution to this problem/conflict lies in that thread about legalizing reefer ?
My first thought after reading your post was; "who are you tellin' to Chhhhhhiiiiilllllll?"

ebuddy
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 10:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
So you consider critiquing someone's grammar as a means to devalue their content as a legitimate means of discourse ?

Sad.

-t

No, the grammar was just the cherry on the top of what was a pretty offensive and all-round dumb remark. Here it is again:

Good!! I hope the Israeli's find a way to take the Palestinian's air too. Good riddance to the human cockroach's! The muslim world needs to grow up.
You will note that he is inferring that all Palestinians are "cockroaches".
     
turtle777
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Oct 28, 2009, 10:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
No, the grammar was just the cherry on the top of what was a pretty offensive and all-round dumb remark.
So why did you focus exclusively on the "cherry", instead of arguing against his dumb remark ?

-t
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 10:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
So why did you focus exclusively on the "cherry", instead of arguing against his dumb remark ?

-t


Because a wise man does not wage a losing battle, and I was stroking my beard when I read his dumb remark. Why did you focus on my focusing on his cherry?
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 10:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
and I was stroking my beard when I read his dumb remark.
I knew it.

-t
     
besson3c
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Oct 28, 2009, 10:34 PM
 
What does my being wise have to do with masturbation?
     
turtle777
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Oct 28, 2009, 10:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What does my being wise have to do with masturbation?
You like to do it in public internet forums ?

-t
     
besson3c
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Oct 28, 2009, 10:39 PM
 
And you like to focus on my focusing on cherries with it in your mind that I masturbate in public. What does that make you, huh?
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 11:07 PM
 
Maybe they could try not killing each other.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
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Oct 28, 2009, 11:48 PM
 
Really, this thread is about as serious as this--

YouTube - VentriloChoir on Hungarian TV
     
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Oct 29, 2009, 04:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
*sign the thing i hate about these threads is that you have a brief period of passionate (usually over the top) exchange, then everyone gets tired and leaves instead of delving deeper. anyway.....
Very true. Thanks for a great post though.
     
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Oct 29, 2009, 10:42 AM
 
Ah, shucks, guess I'm too late.
     
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Oct 29, 2009, 01:50 PM
 
Yes, thank you to Hawkeye for the great post (as usual).

By the way, I was accused of wanting the same thing the so-called "Palestinians" want in reverse, which is completely false. I don't hate Islam or Muslims, but the so-called "Palestinians" as a clear majority hate Judaism and Jews. I don't believe my religion is the only possible path to salvation, but Muslims appear to believe that. I don't want my people to control the entire world. I don't expect to be a majority religion in dozens of countries or 99% of the Middle East, as most Muslims expect. I don't expect to foist my religious laws on the secular world like many Muslims do. I don't want to push those people into the sea in a war of annihilation, like the Arab powers pledged to do to the Jews multiple times in the 20th Century.

I only expect the hostile fifth column in tiny Israel to recognize the promise that is even alluded to in the Koran, that the Land of Israel belongs to the nation of Israel, and that since they have demonstrated they will refuse to live in peace, they need to go if there is to ever be hope of peace by human hands. They can go to any number of 47 Muslim majority countries, and if those countries cared about peace they would welcome their brethren. If their lives are so terrible they need to end their occupation of the land of the Jewish people (at least the fraction of the land under Israel's dominion) and seek happiness elsewhere.

You know, if this country really wanted to contribute to peace in the Middle East, the US could actually help by settling the so-called "Palestinians" in Iraq, or maybe in Afghanistan.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Oct 29, 2009 at 02:13 PM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Oct 29, 2009, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Yes, thank you to Hawkeye for the great post (as usual).

By the way, I was accused of wanting the same thing the so-called "Palestinians" want in reverse, which is completely false. I don't hate Islam or Muslims, but the so-called "Palestinians" as a clear majority hate Judaism and Jews. I don't believe my religion is the only possible path to salvation, but Muslims appear to believe that. I don't want my people to control the entire world. I don't expect to be a majority religion in dozens of countries or 99% of the Middle East, as most Muslims expect. I don't expect to foist my religious laws on the secular world like many Muslims do. I don't want to push those people into the sea in a war of annihilation, like the Arab powers pledged to do to the Jews multiple times in the 20th Century.

I only expect the hostile fifth column in tiny Israel to recognize the promise that is even alluded to in the Koran, that the Land of Israel belongs to the nation of Israel, and that since they have demonstrated they will refuse to live in peace, they need to go if there is to ever be hope of peace by human hands. They can go to any number of 47 Muslim majority countries, and if those countries cared about peace they would welcome their brethren. If their lives are so terrible they need to end their occupation of the land of the Jewish people (at least the fraction of the land under Israel's dominion) and seek happiness elsewhere.

You know, if this country really wanted to contribute to peace in the Middle East, the US could actually help by settling the so-called "Palestinians" in Iraq, or maybe in Afghanistan.
The 47, plus those with large Muslim populations
     
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Oct 29, 2009, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
There's a particularly interesting profile on the widely-debunked author of this hit piece; Alison Weir in an Anti-Defamation League article here. When the author is associated with CNI, WOJ, Al Awda, and a host of other well-known proponents of the Palestinian right of return, there is an apparent conflict of interest. It follows that she must demonize Israel at all costs. After all, the blood libel has led to a great deal of hostility toward Jews through pogroms, mass slayings and expulsions for centuries.
Weir is pro-palestinian and anti-Israel, but there is nothing wrong in being so, as long as the reasons for being so are because of Israel's oppression of and crimes against the palestinians and not because the citizens of Israel are predominantly jews.

As far as I can see she is not anti-semitic but she is associated with america's rightwing and because of her obvious bias she can't be seen as completely objective and her passion can sometimes lead her to make jumps in logic or to use doubtful sources, but that is true for all biased and opiniated writers.

The Anti-Defamation-League is just as biased but instead being staunchly pro-Israel and yet it is a left-wing-organization. When it started its work in 1903 it had good intentions, namely to work against antisemitism but later it degenerated into a mere mouthspeaker, justifier and lobbyist for Israel.

Nonetheless even biased, passionate and opiniated people and organizations are useful, they have the will, time and resolve to follow stories that normal media find not interesting or too hard to research or too hard to sell, and while these biased writers sometimes bend the truth to prove their own preconceptions, they at least find some truth that real and objective journalists can follow up and write about in a better way.

The best way is to debunk or confirm the writings of these biased writers. Of course the debunkers and confirmers are themselves biased and passionate but that's also ok, the truth will find its way through nonetheless:


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
How is Alison Weir debunked you might ask? Well... for starters; the rags that broke much of this nonsense were Swedish tabloids.
It's not nonesense, there is a decades-long history of Israel's reckless dealing with organs. during the 80's numerous jewish families complained about these respectless acts until the scandal came to light and the responsible people received their tat on their hands and reassigned to other positions. Unfortunately palestinian families didn't and don't have the same pressure-lobby in Israel as jewish families and the suspiscion remains that the organ-scandal during the eighties stopped the practice only regarding israelis but not regarding palestinians from the occupied territories.

True is though that the swedish newspaper that brought this topic to light again is a sensationalist tabloid that probably didn't research everything as throughly as one would wish for such an important topic.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Medical experts overwhelmingly dismiss these accounts as fraudulent for the simple fact that the theft of organs from the dead for use in transplants, as alleged in many of these stories, is medically impossible. For example, one account details the events surrounding a Palestinian teen who was shot by Israeli soldiers in the chest, then in each leg, then once ‘in the stomach’ in order to steal his organs.
The accounts given by this supposed "eye witness" would've destroyed the organs through hemorrhaging and infection rendering them entirely useless for transplant per Andrea Meyerhoff MD.
That's true, it's very difficult to obtain viable organs from already dead people, it would have to happen quick, right there on the battlefield, but most accounts claim that detained and wounded palestinians, who die later get robbed of organs.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Much of Weir's accounts reference “Israel Shamir” whom she falsely claims is an Israeli when in fact this is the alias of a well-known Swede of Russian descent associated with Russian ultra-nationalists and began his journalism under the wings of an anti-Semite, Aleksandr Prokhanov.
That's what biased people do when debunking other biased people, looking for the one or two sources that are untrustworthy and then claiming that the work were based mostly on these sources and therefore everything were disproven.
Israel Shamir is indeed a fake and antisemite, but Weir's article posted above doesn't reference Shamir at all and her other article on counterpunch does so only for two sentences in footnotes.



Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm sorry Taliesin, the author who wrote the article you cite is so full of holes she doesn't hold any water my friend. This isn't "attack the messenger", this is "facts indicating a woeful lack of credibility complete with detailed debunkings". All this and more can be read up on her here.
This is nothing but "attack the messenger". I read first the hurryupharry-debunk of weir's counterpunch-article and then the counterpunch-article and it was exactly like I described above, a biased writer debunks another by concentrating on the one untrustworthy source and exaggerating by claiming that most of Weir's article were based on that source.

That sort of behaviour is to be expected, what I found rather surprising is that the "debunker" resorts to lies, too:

Bostrom’s article claims that Israeli soldiers hunted down a Palestinian youth, shooting him in the chest and abdomen at close range in order to steal his organs. The alleged witnesses to the events described in his article, including the families of the purported victims, have completely disavowed the story (read here)
Under "read here" it links to this story:

Relative of organ donor berates Swedish tabloid story | International News | Jerusalem Post

A quote with the main-point:
The cousin of a 2002 terror casualty whose kidney was donated to a young Palestinian girl has reacted angrily to the Swedish tabloid story that IDF soldiers were killing Palestinians to harvest their organs, accusing the journalist of "first rate anti-Semitism," of which "the Third Reich would be proud."
Probably the "debunker" thought that people would be too lazy to click on the links and actually read it.

Taliesin
     
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Oct 29, 2009, 07:18 PM
 
The Israelis are guilty of harvesting Palestinian organs and implanting them in aliens from Planet X.
     
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Oct 29, 2009, 08:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Brother, I thought you had been fairly even-handed in how you addressed posters on both sides of this issue which is not always easy to do. While I disagreed with some of your points, I was still with ya... until the "just plain biblical nonsense" piece. There's no doubt the Jewish connection to the region has roots in Judaism ... If there is religious doctrinal nonsense, it is not reflected in the 51% secular Israelis who oppose concessions in Jerusalem for example.
Re-read my comment. When I spoke of biblical nonsense, I was referring to Big Mac's views specifically, not to Jews or Israelis in general.
When someone says the term "Palestinians" is a misnomer, they're citing the fact that this has been used not as a term referencing all peoples of the former Palestine, but of a people attempting self-determination through a comparatively recent claim to the region.
The question of "comparative recent-ness" is irrelevant to the matter of self-determination. And he didn't say it was a misnomer, he called them a "non-people." The people themselves, not the term, was the target of abuse.

Israel should adopt my recommendations not as an exchange, but because it's the right thing to do and will earn respect in the long run. I'm not a "land for peace" person. Besides, the leadership groups like Hamas and Fatah have nothing to exchange; if they offer compromises, dissenters will simply splinter off and continue to terrorize. Hamas and Fatah have all the power needed to organize terrorism, but no actual power to enforce order. Imagine the police department making an agreement with the mob not sell "protection." The mob couldn't enforce the agreement on it's own side.
Israel cannot have peace as long as it exists. Period. Why? Because Palestinians are being used as pawns by Iran and Syria and others.
People said the same thing of Ireland. No enmity is eternal. Israel already has peaceful relations with former foes like Egypt, for example.
     
 
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