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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Saudi Arabia gives Israel clear skies to attack Iranian nuclear sites

Saudi Arabia gives Israel clear skies to attack Iranian nuclear sites
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mattyb
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Jun 14, 2010, 05:41 AM
 
Saudi Arabia has conducted tests to stand down its air defences to enable Israeli jets to make a bombing raid on Iran’s nuclear facilities.

We'd like to see them all pushed into the sea, but if they want to attack someone else that we hate, we'll let them through.

Gotta love the middle east situation.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 14, 2010, 06:08 AM
 
We'll see how long that lasts, although then again Saudi Arabian diplomats referred to Israel by name on camera so perhaps the government doesn't buy into the Wahabi mindset that its spreads throughout the world.

Btw, bless you for your perceptiveness of the conflict mattyb. You're a credit to your nationality.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
dcmacdaddy
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Jun 14, 2010, 08:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
We'd like to see them all pushed into the sea, but if they want to attack someone else that we hate, we'll let them through.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
AKA
"I hate you but will make a temporary alliance with you if you help me fight someone I hate even more than you."


Pretty much explains everything in the Middle East, doesn't it? Temporary d/alliances count more than long-term relationships.
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Wiskedjak
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Jun 14, 2010, 08:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
We'd like to see them all pushed into the sea, but if they want to attack someone else that we hate, we'll let them through.
Just as not every Jew is as evil as some Muslims think they are, not every Muslim is as evil as *you* think they are.

... one crazy man says "push them into the sea", and you automatically think that every person with the same colour of skin as him holds the same thought.
     
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Jun 14, 2010, 10:02 AM
 
Then why is that the Saudis, emirates, omanis, quataris, bahrainis, iraqis, lebaneeses, jordanians, kuwaitis or pakistanis not doing anything to stop Iran, instead of leaving it unto the west and Israel?

Don't get me wrong, the armed forces of all those countries are jokes... Merely depending on the protection of the west against the soviets and now Iran. And now that they realize that the administration in washington is incapable of dealing with the situation competently, they turn to their next hope... Israel. IMHO
     
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Jun 14, 2010, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
You're a credit to your nationality.
Which is?
     
mattyb  (op)
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Jun 14, 2010, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
We'll see how long that lasts, although then again Saudi Arabian diplomats referred to Israel by name on camera so perhaps the government doesn't buy into the Wahabi mindset that its spreads throughout the world.

Btw, bless you for your perceptiveness of the conflict mattyb. You're a credit to your nationality.
I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny or not.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Just as not every Jew is as evil as some Muslims think they are, not every Muslim is as evil as *you* think they are.

... one crazy man says "push them into the sea", and you automatically think that every person with the same colour of skin as him holds the same thought.
You know sweet FA about me, about the years that I've lived in different muslim countries or about how much I've had the opportunity to travel in muslim countries. Try asking before putting your other foot into your mouth.

Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Which is?
Dual nationality, British and American.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 14, 2010, 11:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
I'm not sure if you're trying to be funny or not
Nope, not trying to be funny - that was a sincere compliment. I am thankful for all others who understand the truth of the conflict. I was wrong about your nationality, though, thinking you were French because of your location (and then assuming most Frenchmen don't have that clear an outlook of the Middle East, which may or may not be that accurate a stereotype).
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Just as not every Jew is as evil as some Muslims think they are, not every Muslim is as evil as *you* think they are.... one crazy man says "push them into the sea", and you automatically think that every person with the same colour of skin as him holds the same thought.
Wikedjak, I'm about as hardline pro-Israel on the Arab-Israeli conflict as they come, but I don't think all or even most Muslims are properly characterized as evil. I do believe that an unfortunately high percentage of the Muslim world condones radical jihad, however. And as Doofy points out, the issue has nothing at all to do with skin color or other ethnic traits. Islam is a creed-based religion (rather than a tribal or national religion) that transcends the original Arab ethnicity of its founding to incorporate many races.

As for the "push the Jews to the sea" aspect of the conflict, you may not know the history that well. That was a rallying cry for a very united Arab world when it fought its major wars of aggression against Israel in 1948, 1967 and 1973. That's what the leaders proclaimed they were going to do, and those who led with that aspiration were celebrated by their countrymen. Were all Arabs of that mindset? Certainly not, unless they were all of one Zerg or Borg-like hive mind. But vast percentages were. And remember, a major portion of the 1948 Arab refugees voluntarily left their homes at the urging of their leaders - they wanted to clear the way for "conquering Arab armies." Some in the Arab world have accepted Israel's existence, although if you look at the polls they're clearly in a tiny minority camp. You see echoes of the call to push the Jews to the sea when you look at various moments in time, such as footage of so-called "Palestinians" passing out candy in celebration upon hearing of a suicide attack that killed innocent Israeli civilians, or an Arab mob dipping their hands in a just slain Israeli soldier's blood, when Hamas flies rockets into Israeli border towns, the way the so-called "Palestinians" venerate their cowardly suicide attackers. You see it when you notice that Mein Kampf is an all time best seller in the Arab world, as are other Jew-hating works like The Protocols. You see it when so-called flotilla "peace activists" tell Israelis to go back to Auschwitz and how those same types of "peace activists" savagely beat and stab unarmed Israeli soldiers with clubs, or in how the international community reacts with such blanket condemnation of Israel for its valid defense of a legal blockage against a territory right on its border is at open war with Israel. You also see it in the international community's hypocrisy - attacking a stable democracy Israel and demanding it become nuclear-free while holding silence over the Iranian thermonuclear threat. You see it on college campuses - the absolute hate and vitriol expressed by Arab students against Israel and against anyone who speaks in the country's defense.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 14, 2010 at 12:59 PM. )

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Jun 14, 2010, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Just as not every Jew is as evil as some Muslims think they are, not every Muslim is as evil as *you* think they are.

... one crazy man says "push them into the sea", and you automatically think that every person with the same colour of skin as him holds the same thought.
FOR THE LAST TIME, islam IS NOT A F'ING RACE.

Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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Doofy
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Jun 14, 2010, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I was wrong about your nationality, though, thinking you were French because of your location.
Don't let him kid you, Biggie - Matty is a full bore Frenchman these days. You can tell by that little wiggle he does when he walks and the way he puts headache pills up his bum.
:-p @ Matt
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Jun 14, 2010, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
FOR THE LAST TIME, islam IS NOT A F'ING RACE.

Its a terrorist guild.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jun 14, 2010, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Btw, bless you for your perceptiveness of the conflict mattyb. You're a credit to your nationality.
"I like that you agree with me."
     
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Jun 14, 2010, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
"I like that you agree with me."
Pretty much what Big Mac said. I would add, "I like that you agree with me. And I will compliment you on your attitude because my own biases make me assume attitudes about you as a person (and assumes traits about your nationality) based solely on where you live."

Talk about a back-handed compliment. Big Mac might as well have said to mattyb, "You're pretty tolerant for being an anti-Semitic Frog".
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Jun 14, 2010, 05:41 PM
 
Gosh, the whole lot of ya are a trite bunch of ninnies. I miss the good old days before we knew Simey was gay, Lerk wasn't a dick and what's his name wasn't making up-skirt videos and killing himself. No disrespect to anyone here or no longer with us. I love you all. Well. A few of you. Not many. Never mind.

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Jun 15, 2010, 04:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
And remember, a major portion of the 1948 Arab refugees voluntarily left their homes at the urging of their leaders - they wanted to clear the way for "conquering Arab armies." .
When you can't help it but indulge in your pathetic and rediculous rants, at least try to not reuse old debunked propaganda-stuff. Only a minority received such an evacuation-call in a specific area where they relocated not far away from their homes. The vast majority got the call to stay but left nonetheless because of panic, threats and direct eviction through jewish forces.

Taliesin
     
Doofy
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Jun 15, 2010, 06:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Gosh, the whole lot of ya are a trite bunch of ninnies. I miss the good old days before we knew Simey was gay, Lerk wasn't a dick and what's his name wasn't making up-skirt videos and killing himself. No disrespect to anyone here or no longer with us. I love you all. Well. A few of you. Not many. Never mind.
Shat up you tart!
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Big Mac
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Jun 16, 2010, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
When you can't help it but indulge in your pathetic and rediculous rants, at least try to not reuse old debunked propaganda-stuff.
Well, I'm sorry if you fault me because I don't take my talking points from the Hamas newsletter.

Only a minority received such an evacuation-call in a specific area where they relocated not far away from their homes. The vast majority got the call to stay but left nonetheless because of panic, threats and direct eviction through jewish forces.
Source? AFAIK, the call to flee was made pretty clearly across the Arab world.

Regardless, Taliesin, you and your people are fighting an old war against the chosen people. Why not be content with 99% of the Middle East? Surely there are vast Arab lands and vast Arab oil wealth that could immediately be put to wonderful use by transferring out that worthless population, alleviating the plight of the "poor" Arabs squatters on Jewish land who refuse to live in peace with the sovereign Jewish state.

Yet, I know that your co-religionists refuse to give up because to acknowledge Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel means that the many hateful Koranic and post-Koranic declarations about my people and our religion are false. I now realize that for Jews to live and endure and enjoy sovereignty over OUR LAND (that was OUR LAND thousands of years before your illiterate, barbarous "prophet" came on the scene and gave you a corrupt amalgamation of Judaism, Christianity and Arab folk religion) is just another proof that your "prophet" was indeed a false prophet who spoke falsely in the name of a deity he did not know and never even claimed to speak to directly, persona to persona. (You see, by the standard of Judaism, a prophet can only be called a prophet if he or she speaks directly to G-d. That's one of the required elements of true prophecy. That is why Jewish canon places the book of Daniel in the Writings rather than the Prophets, because Daniel never directly communicated with G-d although he did get divine revelation from angels. By the Jewish standard even if Mohammed had fulfilled the other requirements of being a prophet - and he did not - he still would not be classified as a prophet because he only claimed to receive revelation from an intermediary, the angel Gabriel.)

I shouldn't have posted that. But I did. Edit: And for the record I don't mean to take my aggression out on you, Taliesin. you've shown that you're a decent person and a moderate Muslim by most standards. But if you take the Islamic propaganda line I'm going to respond in kind. And yes, that rhymes.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 17, 2010 at 04:11 AM. )

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mattyb  (op)
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Jun 16, 2010, 11:26 AM
 
I always wondered why Jerusalem was/is considered a holy city for muslims when Mohammed never even went there.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jun 16, 2010, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
I always wondered why Jerusalem was/is considered a holy city for muslims when Mohammed never even went there.
Easily enough answered for someone *honestly* wants to know the answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...salem#In_Islam

(incidentally, Muhammad apparently *did* visit Jerusalem)
Jerusalem is also significant because of its strong association with Abraham, David, Solomon, and Jesus.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 16, 2010, 08:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Easily enough answered for someone *honestly* wants to know the answer. Jerusalem in Islam - Why is the City of Jerusalem Important in Islam (incidentally, Muhammad apparently *did* visit Jerusalem)
Easy there, Wikedjak. The link you posted almost certainly gives the conservative/fundamentalist Islamic opinion, and because of political correctness and fear of radical backlashes, the conservative Islamic view is often given in the media without being subject to any scrutiny. Most of the information about Islam presented in the mass media and in education is written uncritically from the Islamic point of view. (Recent academic studies have been published on that very subject.) So go ahead and read the Islamic view, but why not also hear other perspectives? Of course, you can say my response is biased by my Orthodox Jewish view, and that's fine if you wish to believe that. Don't just take my word or the Islamic word as truth, do the research for yourself.

The city of Jerusalem is, in truth, not an Islamic holy city. It is not once mentioned by name in the Koran even though its name must have been well known in the Arab world, whereas it is referenced by name hundreds of times in the Hebrew Scriptures and also a great many times in the Christian Greek Testament. The Muslim direction of prayer used to face Jerusalem (just as Jews face Jerusalem in prayer) until Mohammed was rejected as a false prophet by the Jews of Arabia, after which he became virulently anti-Jewish, and at that point he changed the direction of Muslim prayer to Mecca so that worshippers would have their rears to Jerusalem. This is documented by Muslim sources.

When Muslims claim Mohammed visited Jerusalem, they don't mean he did so physically. Muslims didn't get to Jerusalem until after his death. But the way Muslims claim Jerusalem and the Temple Mount as "Islam's Third Holy City" is by using an obscure reference to Mohammed supposedly visiting in spirit form the "farthest mosque," where he was said to have ascended to heaven. The reference is contained in the Koranic section known as "The Night Journey." The Islamic claim to Jerusalem is so weak it has been publicly doubted by state-controlled Egyptian media. Moslem Claim to Jerusalem Rests on Wobbly Verse:

A commentator in the official Egyptian government weekly, of all places, writes this week that the entire Moslem claim on Jerusalem and El-Aksa is based on a mistaken reading of one chapter of the Quran. Ahmed Mahmad Oufa wrote that the verse that mentions a night journey by Muhammed to a mosque has nothing to do with Jerusalem, as is generally claimed, but with a mosque near the holy Moslem city of Medina.

Prof. Moshe Sharon, Middle Eastern expert in the Hebrew University, commented on Arutz-7 today: "This is not a new claim. We must remember that Jerusalem is not mentioned at all in the Quran [though it is mentioned hundreds of time in the Bible - ed. note]. The verse in question is in Sura [chapter] 17, which states that Muhammad was brought at night from one mosque to a "more distant" - aktsa, in Arabic - mosque. The first Moslem commentators did not explain this as referring to Jerusalem at all, of course, but rather as a miraculous night journey or night vision or some such. In the beginning of the 8th century, however, they began associating this with Jerusalem, because they had a need to start giving sanctity to Jerusalem, and so they started connecting this verse with Jerusalem... Originally, however, the Moslems recognized the area of the Dome of the Rock as holy because of the Jewish Temple of King Solomon."
The holy cities of Islam are the cities Mohammed lived in, Mecca and Medina. He never went all the way to Jerusalem. Besides, there was no mosque for Mohammed to visit if you wish to believe he traveled there by spirit or otherwise. Depending on the exact time in history, there may have been a fort or a church built on the ruins of the Second Holy Temple, but there could not have been a mosque with Muslim worshippers there in his lifetime because Islam did not spread that far until after his death. Logically speaking, the farthest mosque relative to Mohammed and the condition of Islam at the time could have at most been a mosque established somewhere in the outskirts of Mecca and Medina. Islam simply existed no where else at that time. (I don't mean to belabor the point for our faster students, but some of you need the extra help.) The Dome of the Rock was built because Muslims knew the Temple Mount was the site of Solomon's Holy Temple, not because of the Night Journey.

In addition, Jerusalem was only really important to Muslims when Christians and later Jews contested Islamic control. Muslim forces fought the Crusaders over control, and that's when Islam really cared about the city. If Jerusalem truly had been of that much importance to Islam, it should have been a major Islamic population center. It never was.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 17, 2010 at 03:55 AM. )

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Jun 17, 2010, 03:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Well, I'm sorry if you fault me because I don't take my talking points from the Hamas newsletter.
I fault you for taking talking points from a similarly biased but radical jewish newsletter, if you can follow me. There is nothing to say againts a bit of ranting but you are being carried away by it far too much, mishmashing facts and fiction into a big ball of nonesense.

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Source? AFAIK, the call to flee was made pretty clearly across the Arab world.
In the 80's the archives of Israel and some surrounding arab states got opened up to historians (including israeli ones), the facts gathered from them paint a quite different picture from the conflict than the official history-telling did until then, so I suggest to read it up and adapt your propaganda to these new facts, it would help your credibility.

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Regardless, Taliesin, you and your people are fighting an old war against the chosen people. Why not be content with 99% of the Middle East? Surely there are vast Arab lands and vast Arab oil wealth that could immediately be put to wonderful use by transferring out that worthless population, alleviating the plight of the "poor" Arabs squatters on Jewish land who refuse to live in peace with the sovereign Jewish state.
That's the point really, the chosen people are not the only chosen people anymore or to be more precise God decided to choose more people much more people.. adding christians and muslims into His picture.

For christians and muslims alike the history of the jewish people with their prophets and interaction with God is a very important inheritance, they don't see it as being a "jewish" thing but as being an integral part of their religious identity, negating the labels we humans like to stick so eagerly but seeing it as a continous interaction between God and humanity.

That's the spiritual reason, there is a pseudo-religious reason of not giving up land that was ruled by muslims and there is the secular reason of not letting jewish immigrants expell the palestinian indiginous population and there is the secular but strategic reason of not wanting a colonial bridgehead in the middle-east from which the western world can project their power.



Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Yet, I know that your co-religionists refuse to give up because to acknowledge Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel means that the many hateful Koranic and post-Koranic declarations about my people and our religion are false. I now realize that for Jews to live and endure and enjoy sovereignty over OUR LAND (that was OUR LAND thousands of years before your illiterate, barbarous "prophet" came on the scene and gave you a corrupt amalgamation of Judaism, Christianity and Arab folk religion) is just another proof that your "prophet" was indeed a false prophet who spoke falsely in the name of a deity he did not know and never even claimed to speak to directly, persona to persona.

I shouldn't have posted that. But I did.
You indeed shouldn't have, it makes you look ignorant and abusive.

See, whatever motivates you as a jew to long for Israel is an inheritance to christians and muslims alike, as they are the "jews 2.0" so to speak, but you will never get that point.

You are 2010 years too late.

But as wrong as your sentiments are, I understand them, every religion thinks of itself as being the one and only true and therefore superior to the others, but that's a human trait and has nothing to do with how God operates and thinks.

And since the conflict can hardly be solved religiously a secular solution is needed: The international right that acknowledges Israel within the pre-67-borders and the establishment of a palestinian state in the Westbank and Gaza with Jerusalem being turned into an international city open to all three religions to worship would be a good compromise.

Taliesin
     
mattyb  (op)
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Jun 17, 2010, 04:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Easily enough answered for someone *honestly* wants to know the answer.
Religious significance of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(incidentally, Muhammad apparently *did* visit Jerusalem)
Jerusalem is also significant because of its strong association with Abraham, David, Solomon, and Jesus.
Just can't stop swapping feet can you? Read some Bernard Lewis and you may learn something.

Try not to trust Wikipedia so much as well, you may learn other things.
     
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Jun 17, 2010, 08:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Easy there, Wikedjak. The link you posted almost certainly gives the conservative/fundamentalist Islamic opinion ... Of course, you can say my response is biased by my Orthodox Jewish view, and that's fine if you wish to believe that.
Ah, but that's the point, isn't it? Of *course* I linked to a document outlining the Islamic opinion. mattyb wanted to know "why Jerusalem was/is considered a holy city for muslims". There is no better source for that information than a Muslim who holds that opinion. Now, of course, you can go to other sources to argue against the *validity* of the *reasons* for that opinion, but that doesn't invalidate the opinion.

This whole "Jerusalem belongs to us because I have a book saying so" is complete hogwash ... for both sides. If they were children (and the Jews and the Muslims certainly behave as such when it comes to Jerusalem), I'd take it away from them both until they can learn to play nicely.
     
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Jun 17, 2010, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
Just can't stop swapping feet can you? Read some Bernard Lewis and you may learn something.

Try not to trust Wikipedia so much as well, you may learn other things.
Right. So, you don't *really* want to know why Muslims consider Jerusalem to be a holy city.
     
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Jun 17, 2010, 09:10 AM
 
One could also ask why Jerusalem is considered a holy city by the Jewish people? And, please link to unbiased sources if you didn't like my link to wikipedia for the Muslim opinion on the matter of it's importance to Muslims.
     
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Jun 17, 2010, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
This whole "Jerusalem belongs to us because I have a book saying so" is complete hogwash ... for both sides. If they were children (and the Jews and the Muslims certainly behave as such when it comes to Jerusalem), I'd take it away from them both until they can learn to play nicely.
This assessment is spot-on. In regards to Jerusalem, we have believers saying "this is my sandbox, you can't come in" to believers of other faiths. And the really sad thing is that today Jews and Muslims (with Christians on the sidelines fighting amongst themselves) are fighting over a literal sandbox; a chunk of rocky, mountainous desert terrain with few natural resources.


I am going to reiterate the stance I have had on this matter for the past 5+ years: let them keep fighting over it. Eventually they will get tired of fighting or kill off one another. (I hope for the killing off one another option. Long-term, I'd like to see everyone on this planet who is willing to die to defend their faith, die defending their faith. A spiritual purging as it were.)
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Jun 17, 2010, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
One could also ask why Jerusalem is considered a holy city by the Jewish people? And, please link to unbiased sources if you didn't like my link to wikipedia for the Muslim opinion on the matter of it's importance to Muslims.
No, Wikedjak, one can't ask that same question to Jews. There are four holy cities in Judaism, of which Jerusalem is the undisputed holiest. And you don't have to go to Wikipedia because, for one, you have the ubiquitous record of the Hebrew Scriptures which recorded the history of Jewish Jerusalem and countless aspects related to it like the kingdoms of David and Solomon (and the rest of David's monarchic line), and the Holy Temple, and hundreds of years of history, and which references Jerusalem by name hundreds of times (unlike the Koran). The Temple Mount is the one and only site in the whole world where the Jewish Holy Temples stood and where the Third Holy Temple will be located permanently in the Messianic Era. Besides that, Jews have had a 3,000+ year continuous presence in Jerusalem, and Jews pray for the peace and rebuilding of Jerusalem multiple times a day every day. If you think I'm lying go to a synagogue and ask to see a Siddur (prayer book) so you can read the truth with your own eyes.

Jerusalem is also the most important of a number of prime archaeological sources of untold and ever growing artifacts from the two ancient Jewish states. On a nearly daily basis artifacts are unearthed from the Jewish kingdoms that existed there long before the advent of Christianity and even longer before the advent of Islam. Many of the finds don't get reported on because artifacts are found as I said almost daily; they don't get the media coverage they deserve. You won't have a real sense of this unless and until you've seen the city for yourself and looked at not only some of its artifacts but also the enduring landmarks from the Jewish kingdoms that have remained preserved for thousands of years. If you haven't been to Jerusalem and seen places like the City of David with your own eyes, then it's almost easy to excuse your expressed ignorance on the subject, but even then any attempt to question the Jewish connection to Jerusalem is ridiculous and insulting. I know you wrote that just to be argumentative, but some people are dumb enough to actually believe such stupidity.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 20, 2010 at 05:20 AM. )

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Jun 17, 2010, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Yet, I know that your co-religionists refuse to give up because to acknowledge Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel means that the many hateful Koranic and post-Koranic declarations about my people and our religion are false. I now realize that for Jews to live and endure and enjoy sovereignty over OUR LAND (that was OUR LAND thousands of years before your illiterate, barbarous "prophet" came on the scene and gave you a corrupt amalgamation of Judaism, Christianity and Arab folk religion) is just another proof that your "prophet" was indeed a false prophet who spoke falsely in the name of a deity he did not know and never even claimed to speak to directly, persona to persona.
Not sure where you are getting that "thousands of years" thing from. I posted this years ago in another forum ....

Originally Posted by OAW
It is interesting to note that of the over 5000 years of recorded history in the land known as Israel/Palestine, the Jews have only ruled it for 533 years. Prior to 1948, the last time period of Jewish control ended in 70 A.D. ... when the Romans conquered Jerusalem. But when modern day Jews use the religious texts of the ancient Hebrews as if they are some sort of real estate deed then those little things we call facts get lost in the shuffle. The Old Testament ... a religious scripture that just "happened" to be written by the Hebrews for the Hebrews ... called it the "Promised Land" after all right? I guess the Canaanites ... the people that the ancient Hebrews first jacked the land from ... didn't get the memo.
And need I mention that the Canaanites controlled the land for 2000 years before the ancient Hebrews even showed up? Of course this was never refuted then and I don't expect it to be now. So this is why I agree wholeheartedly with this ...

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
This whole "Jerusalem belongs to us because I have a book saying so" is complete hogwash ... for both sides. If they were children (and the Jews and the Muslims certainly behave as such when it comes to Jerusalem), I'd take it away from them both until they can learn to play nicely.
The most dangerous people in the world are those who delude themselves into thinking that they know God better than everyone else. "My God is better than your false God!" "This land belongs to us because our God said so!" Which is probably why the older I get the less use I have for organized religion. Sound like a bunch of first graders.

In any event, to address the actual thread topic .....

If Israel were to attack Iranian nuclear sites I think that would have disastrous repercussions for the region. They managed to do this without direct retaliation from Iraq in 1981 and Syria in 2007. Iraq was tied up with its war with Iran at the time ... and Syria apparently just b*tched up and only complained to the UN. But Iran has missiles that can target any part of Israel ... and something tells me they won't hesitate to strike back. Not to mention the fact that Hezbollah could once again start raining down rockets on Israel from the north on Iran's behalf. And if Israel then escalates the neighboring Arab governments ... which are wary of, if not hostile to Iran ... might easily get sucked into it against Israel because Iran is more popular on the Arab street than the Arab governments are. And if they stood aside their own standing could be in jeopardy. It's something that can easily spiral out of control ... and the initial strike would likely have limited effect given how Iran's nuclear facilities are buried in fortified mountains (a lesson learned from Iraq's experience).

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Jun 17, 2010 at 05:41 PM. )
     
Taliesin
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Jun 18, 2010, 04:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
If Israel were to attack Iranian nuclear sites I think that would have disastrous repercussions for the region. They managed to do this without direct retaliation from Iraq in 1981 and Syria in 2007. Iraq was tied up with its war with Iran at the time ... and Syria apparently just b*tched up and only complained to the UN. But Iran has missiles that can target any part of Israel ... and something tells me they won't hesitate to strike back. Not to mention the fact that Hezbollah could once again start raining down rockets on Israel from the north on Iran's behalf. And if Israel then escalates the neighboring Arab governments ... which are wary of, if not hostile to Iran ... might easily get sucked into it against Israel because Iran is more popular on the Arab street than the Arab governments are. And if they stood aside their own standing could be in jeopardy. It's something that can easily spiral out of control ... and the initial strike would likely have limited effect given how Iran's nuclear facilities are buried in fortified mountains (a lesson learned from Iraq's experience).

OAW
I don't think that there would be immediate disadvantages for Israel after attacking Iran. Sure Iran and Hezbollah would retaliate but given the new anti-rocket-technology stationed in Israel rocket-attacks will not be such a big problem.

A bigger problem would be if Iran disturbed navally the transport of oil through the gulf, that would have an economic effect.

But other than I think that there would be no direct effect, except maybe for some suicide-bombings in Israel ordered and organized by Hezbollah.

Russia has just stated that they will not deliver defensive rockets to Iran with which they could protect their plants, eventhough the newest UN-sc-resolution wouldn't hinder Russia to deliver them, so Iran can't stop the destruction of some of its plants. Those that are deep underground could maybe be reached with some digging-bombs, but I'm not sure about that.

Now Saudi-Arabia opens up its airspace and the US will look the other way, too... That means an attack is only a matter of time.

But what will be the consequence: I think Iran's development in the nuclear area would be thrown back by 5-10 years, Iran would have the excuse it desires to withdraw from the non-proliferation-act and would go on to develop and build its nukes and would have them in 10 years.

I think Israel and the US know that consequence, too, given their think-tanks pondering about it, but obviously think that the additional 10 years might be enough to build an effective rocket-shield, in the mean-time Saudi-Arabia and Egypt will likely build or aquire some nukes, too.

The alternative would be for the US to invade Iran with groundforces, to dethrone the regime and to install a puppet-regime.

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Jun 18, 2010, 11:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
The alternative would be for the US to invade Iran with groundforces, to dethrone the regime and to install a puppet-regime.
Well that certainly isn't going to happen. We simply don't have the capacity for that with our troops tied up in Afghanistan and Iraq.

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Jun 19, 2010, 07:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Well that certainly isn't going to happen. We simply don't have the capacity for that with our troops tied up in Afghanistan and Iraq.

OAW
It's possible in 2011/2012 or later as the US plans to withdraw from Iraq and later also from Afghanistan, it will have again the free hand to occupy Iran.

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Jun 21, 2010, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
I fault you for taking talking points from a similarly biased but radical jewish newsletter, if you can follow me. There is nothing to say againts a bit of ranting but you are being carried away by it far too much, mishmashing facts and fiction into a big ball of nonesense.
Let's be honest here, Taliesin. It is your culture that favors totalitarian states, propaganda and stereotypical hatred, much more than mine. It is your culture that uses Jews as the scapegoat for most if not all of the world's problems. So what you think is Jewish propaganda may well be truth, a truth that could have been concealed or actively lied about in your education, but truth nonetheless.

And don't just think I say this based on what I've read or heard about your countries and culture. I've seen it first hand. I remember once going into a coffee house with a couple of friends, including one guy who liked to try to get into any girl's pants he could find. He struck up a conversation with an Arab girl - she seemed very nice. Then through no input from me at all the conversation turned to the Arab-Israeli Conflict (or Muslim-Jewish conflict if you please), and the ridiculously false and hateful Arab propaganda that came streaming out of this girl's mouth was astonishing. She was a very modern girl, but her hatreds were relics of old Arab ignorance. I stepped in and started giving her facts that she had never heard of before, facts of history that cannot be denied. She then had to admit after five minutes of my response that she wasn't all that knowledgeable about the subject and only knew to repeat what her parents had taught her. She didn't have to take my word for anything, but she knew that I had the force of truth and logic on my side that she recognizably lacked.

I'm not claiming you're necessarily as ignorant as that girl because I know you're not. But what you take as truth and falsehood may be very different from actual truth and actual falsehood that a free-thinking person with the capacity to think critically and who lives in an open society is able to acquire from a variety of sources. My views haven't been shaped merely by pro-Jewish biased sources but by various and sundry sources of knowledge, Jewish and non-Jewish, religious and secular. I seriously doubt your view of the conflict is informed by knowledge that is anywhere as comprehensive as mine.

In the 80's the archives of Israel and some surrounding arab states got opened up to historians (including israeli ones), the facts gathered from them paint a quite different picture from the conflict than the official history-telling did until then, so I suggest to read it up and adapt your propaganda to these new facts, it would help your credibility.
Sources? I'm sure you can point to either Arab propaganda or a lot of self-hating Israeli propaganda (which is just as good as the Arab propaganda), but I'd like to see a credible author with a modicum of objectivity back up your claims.

That's the point really, the chosen people are not the only chosen people anymore or to be more precise God decided to choose more people much more people.. adding christians and muslims into His picture.
Until HaShem removes the veil of ignorance from the Nations in the Messianic Era (see Isaiah 25), they will not truly be His followers. They may be closer to many aspects of Torah truth by embracing Christianity or Islam, but they do not truly recognize the one and only G-d, since they also simultaneously deny much of His Torah including (but certainly not limited to) denying His oneness, denying His unchanging nature, denying the inviolability and eternality of His Torah, denying that no mortal can see Him and live, denying that He is the first and the last and the only savior, denying the eternality and uniqueness of His covenant with His holy nation Israel, denying the unrivaled supremacy of the prophecy of Moshe His servant, so on and so forth. Christianity and Islam both reject those teachings (some of the ones I mentioned are rejected by Islam, and others rejected by Christianity, while some of them are rejected by both), and since those are absolutely fundamental to accepting His sovereignty in the world, Christians and Muslims cannot truly be called His followers, nor can they claim to be chosen. We refer to ourselves as chosen because we were chosen to be a holy nation to G-d, a unique treasure distinct from all the other nations charged with keeping and following all of His holy commands for worshiping Him and living holy, purified lives. Unless you follow the Torah as a righteous proselyte, you cannot possibly claim to be part of His chosen nation. That doesn't mean non-Jews aren't loved by Him. The L-rd obviously did not intend for the whole world to be Jewish, or else He would have created humanity that way.

For christians and muslims alike the history of the jewish people with their prophets and interaction with God is a very important inheritance, they don't see it as being a "jewish" thing but as being an integral part of their religious identity, negating the labels we humans like to stick so eagerly but seeing it as a continous interaction between God and humanity.
It's good that you used these words because there is an important difference here for you to note between Christians and Muslims. Mainstream Christianity does indeed believe Jewish history is part of its inheritance, but at least Christianity recognizes that that blessing comes from Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite history, and most Christians believe that their salvation and relationship to the divine is inherently connected to the Jewish people. Muslims for their part usually try to expropriate Jewish history, even to the extent of denying that the great figures of Jewish history were truly Jews. The most strident among your people deny the Jewishness of Jewish history completely, calling Jewish figures Muslims instead of Jews. I think that's what has allowed some of your "leadership" to proclaim the ludicrous falsehood that there are no places holy to Jews in the Land of Israel. Either they're purposely trying to deceive outright with no other pretense, or since they like to insist that a figure like King David, for example, was in their view Muslim and not Jewish, they can therefore claim from their perspective that any and all of our holy sites are Muslim and not Jewish. Of course they know that as a matter of history Jews were Jewish and followed the Torah for thousands of years before the birth of Mohammed. It's that kind of outright evil speech and denial of G-dly truth against the chosen nation Israel that makes many of us irate. It's an attack of a linguistic-intellectual type that is equivalent to your people strapping bombs with shrapnel in them to murder and maim as many innocent Jews as possible (and Arab bystanders) in public places in Israel and sometimes elsewhere. But spreading such outright evil lies could in some ways be viewed as more repugnant that simply murdering Jews because it's an attempt to annihilate our history too. If I didn't have the strong faith that the evil your people perpetrate against us is merely part of G-d's master plan of redemption, it would be very difficult for me to carry forward.

That's the spiritual reason, there is a pseudo-religious reason of not giving up land that was ruled by muslims and there is the secular reason of not letting jewish immigrants expell the palestinian indiginous population and there is the secular but strategic reason of not wanting a colonial bridgehead in the middle-east from which the western world can project their power.
I'm glad you say the explanation of not giving up land formerly ruled by Muslims is a pseudo-religious one. As for the Jewish immigrant line, there are Jewish families who I assure you can trace their habitation back through the 3,000 years of continuous Jewish presence in the land, long before any religious claim you can possibly make. Most of your people settled in the region just decades before the War of Independence because of all the economic opportunities brought by Jews who were returning home to the land. As for the colonial bit, its your side that really has to dispense with the dated Arab propaganda. Israel is no more colonial than any of the Arab states that were created by the colonial powers post WWI.

And as I discuss further in my last paragraph below, I don't see how you as a believer in one god (not necessarily the one true G-d, but one god who you at least think to be the same as mine) who influences the course of human events, how is it that you can't see that the modern state of Israel's enduring existence is the divine will? If your conception of the divine were true and followers of your Arab-centric religion were exalted above my nation by that divine power, explain to me how a relatively small population of badgered, isolated, hated Jews survive and even thrive? Do you really think that hundreds of millions of Arabs and beyond that a billion Muslims in total aren't powerful or clever enough to conquer a tiny Jewish state if that were truly the will of Heaven? Clear your mind of the conflict and your anti-Jewish anti-Israel bias for a second if you can and ask yourself these questions in a serious, introspective way. Does that truly make sense to you Taliesin? Does it make sense that your people and religion couldn't prevent the nation of Israel from regaining a measure of sovereignty in 1948, or that your people and religion couldn't prevent the Jewish state from liberating Jerusalem in 1967 (when once confident, conquering Arab armies ran back across the desert in what appeared to be inexplicable fear), or that your people and religion couldn't even wipe us off the map with your sneak attack on our highest holy day in 1973? Or when Saddam Hussein, the would-be Arab champion who wanted to unite the Arab world in a bid to destroy Israel, launched his SCUDs against the country and didn't succeed in killing a single Jew? Or the fact that Israel continues to endure today despite the hostile populations within it, in its territories and on all its borders? Despite the rocket attacks, the suicide terrorism, the rock throwing, the staged rioting, the world condemnations at every turn? I think you know the answer. If it were G-d's will that the Jewish state (even as secular and evil as so much of it is) be destroyed, it would never have come into existence, or it would have been wiped out long, long ago. I think you've come close to recognizing this point before.

The truth is that the existence of the modern state is not only the L-rd's will, what we see today lines up perfectly with thousands of years of prophecy that told us far ahead of time that the Jews would regain sovereignty in the Land, the children of Ishmael would fight continually to try to recapture it but fail, they would further spark wars across the globe against all other nations and that at the climax of history Edom and Ishmael would unite in a final war to destroy Israel, a war in which their tongues will literally melt away in their mouths because G-d will then finally show His sovereignty to all the nations. If this is new to you, you heard it here first. Don't say i didn't warn you.

You indeed shouldn't have, it makes you look ignorant and abusive.
No see, Taliesin, I now realize that that kind of language hits home with you. And I'm going to continue using it. You know why? There are a couple of reasons why. For one, it's the truth. For another, I see that my people have only lost and suffered by trying to be kind and compromise with your people. Israel has tried to compromise with its Arab population for more than 62 years, but your people are maximalist, not open to real compromise and intent on achieving your goal (wiping out the Jews) no matter what. So as a result, here's my strategy: I'm not going to copy all your people's barbaric ways of warfare against us. I don't want to see young Jews sent to suicide bomb your people because that's not Judaism - we love the life that HaShem grants us, whereas your people proclaim they love death. But what I will do is not compromise intellectually. I will unabashedly insist on the Jewish maximalist position and I will not apologize. I will not seek not to offend. For after all, what have my people gained from trying to be kind and accommodating? Just much more hatred and terrorism. From here on out I will take the page from your playbook. I'll counter your propaganda with the strongest historical, political and religious truth I can spread, regardless of whether or not it hurts your feelings or offends your sensibilities.

For example, I know for a fact you follow a false prophet. He taught your people a lot of truth that he learned from Jewish and Christian teachers, but he also injected a lot of falsehood that you take for truth. I could prove that to you in many different ways. Here's one proof that is internal to your own scriptures: Mohammed died when a Jewish slave he abused poisoned him, since she reasoned that if he were truly a prophet he would know the food was poisoned and kill her thus ending her misery, but if he were false he would die and she would prove he was false thereby. That's in your own religious records!

See, whatever motivates you as a jew to long for Israel is an inheritance to christians and muslims alike, as they are the "jews 2.0" so to speak, but you will never get that point. You are 2010 years too late.
No, I get the point far better than you will until the veil of ignorance is lifted and G-dly truth is ubiquitous throughout the world, including the billions of people who are not Jews, Christians or Muslims. I go by G-d's eternal Torah and teachings pursuant to it - His words that are not subject to revision, nullification or alteration. I know that Christianity and Islam were allowed to succeed as part of G-d's will because they are imperfect vessels that prepare the non-Jewish world for redemption by spreading a lot of Torah truth, but to the extent that they conflict with and reject Torah truth they are false. Christianity and Islam are suitable for the other Nations, but they are not suitable for the Jewish nation, and they are not a replacement for Torah, nor do they affect HaShem's special relationship with the Nation of Israel.

But as wrong as your sentiments are, I understand them, every religion thinks of itself as being the one and only true and therefore superior to the others, but that's a human trait and has nothing to do with how God operates and thinks.
Here's what you don't get: Judaism doesn't teach that Jews are superior to non-Jews in any way. In fact, the sages of the Talmud make it quite clear that a righteous gentile who follow's G-d's teachings can become equivalent in stature to a Jewish High Priest. They also say that it is preferable to be born a non-Jew because non-Jews are held only to the much laxer standard of the 7 laws of Noah, rather than the full Torah that all Jews are held to. My religion teaches that there are many paths to G-d and that He is merciful to all his creatures. Therefore, I reason that since He allowed Christianity and Islam to take over most of the non-Jewish world, and allows so much of His creation to gain portions of Torah truth but not the full, unadulterated truth through those faiths, He must therefore be very forgiving toward Christians and Muslims. But that does not mean that they receive the same merit as do His chosen people who keep His Torah.

Yes, I hold my religion to be G-d's truth, but that's not because of an immature desire to want to be right and better than all other people. I hold my religion to be the truth because a) I believe the Torah is supreme truth; b) I believe in the unbroken chain of Torah from Mount Sinai to today, that my forefathers and all our rabbis throughout history passed down, and which my mother and father and my teachers have passed to me; c) In my view the Jewish perspective accounts best by far of any religion on earth for historical and contemporary world truths and is by far the most logical religion; d) I see a plethora of blatant falsehoods in Christianity and Islam and blatant rejections of Torah truth in those religions, which allows me to confirm without a doubt that they are false and illegitimate (by the Jewish standard) pretenders to the crown of Torah.

However, you should also know that my religion teaches that the other nations of the world have wisdom and contributions, knowledge and abilities that are not part of the inheritance of Israel. I don't believe Judaism has a monopoly on all truth, nor do I believe that the other nations have nothing to offer. Truly we are all children of the one true living G-d, but in terms of G-dly truth I do indeed affirm with no ambiguity that my religion is higher and superior to yours and any other on earth. There is nothing higher than the revelation at Mount Sinai, nothing higher than the Torah of Moshe Rabbeinu. And one day, I believe quite soon, the rest of the world will finally be forced to recognize that fact.

And since the conflict can hardly be solved religiously a secular solution is needed: The international right that acknowledges Israel within the pre-67-borders and the establishment of a palestinian state in the Westbank and Gaza with Jerusalem being turned into an international city open to all three religions to worship would be a good compromise.
1. Your plan is unworkable because the pre-1967 borders are not viable. Israel was forced into defending itself in 1967 precisely because its cities were being subject to unrelenting cross border attacks. Going back to pre-1967 would just inevitably lead to another war for the same reasons one was fought 43 years ago.

2. A contiguous so-called "Palestinian state" in Judea, Samaria (the misnamed West Bank) and Gaza would by definition mean that Israel would no longer be contiguous. Besides, in Arab occupied Judea and Samaria you've got the PA that has some politicians who seem to be trying to create real state-like institutions, whereas in Gaza you've got a terrorist party that doesn't have any aspiration for the future other than facilitating the destruction of Israel. Israel would be insane to allow for the creation of a terrorist state right up against its tiny, diminished even bifurcated borders (if you get your way) that has no intention of living in peace.

3. Creating a "Palestinian state" west of the Jordan would mean that you'd be creating a second state of "Palestine" and that you'd be carving it out of tiny Israel. There already is a Palestine. It was created in violation of the internationally accepted Balfour Declaration as a massive pay-off to the Hashemite kingdom. The state is called Jordan. Its land is also part of the Land of Israel by biblical right, although it is of a lesser degree of holiness in than Eretz Yisrael west of the Jordan. Most of its citizens call themselves Palestinians. Let them take over Jordan, rename the country Palestine and transfer their brethren currently squatting in Israel over. Then there would be no Jews to blame for Arab suffering. A true and lasting end to the conflict.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 21, 2010 at 08:34 PM. )
     
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Jun 21, 2010, 08:01 PM
 
(Previous post continued because of length restriction)

4. The international community is dominated by those who hate Israel. The UN has shown time and time again that it is heavily biased toward the Arab position. Jews had no rights to worship while Jerusalem was controlled by Muslim states like Turkey and later Jordan, so there's no reason in the world to trust that the international community controlled by Arab or Muslim powers would administer a proposed international Jerusalem equitably. And besides that, Israel has absolutely no incentive to give away that which G-d returned to us in 1967, nor is there currently any political will within the country to throw away the Jewish and Israeli heartland and eternal capital - Jerusalem - so the proposal is a non-starter.

5. Your people fought a massive war of aggression in 1967 and lost. There are consequences recognized by international law to losing wars that you initiate. Instead of getting over it, the Arab world clings to the belief that they can use the so-called "Palestinians" as canon fodder pawns in their proxy war of attrition with Israel. As I said before, the Arab world with all its vast oil wealth, open land and other resources could easily resettle the terrorist hordes and other Arab occupiers of the Land of Israel. That's the true path to peace. But it sadly won't happen it seems, because instead of you and your brethren waking up to the fact that the modern Jewish state of Israel exists because of the will of HaShem, you continue to try to subvert that will, to make continual war on His people, to make Jerusalem a burden on all people as is prophesied, and to unwittingly fulfill the conditions prophesied so long ago of a catastrophic war by all the nations against Israel, in which G-d will arise to fight for us in spectacular fashion (as I referred to above).

Instead of praying for peace and blessing for the people through whom you have any knowledge of the divine at all, you fight against us and in truth against G-d Himself. I pity all who desire to do evil against Israel, especially those so dumb as to think they are serving their deity in the process of doing so. If fighting against the divine will is what you want to do then that's your free choice and HaShem will judge you according to your choices. Not all Muslims want to do that though. There are actually Muslims who perceive G-d's will manifested in the world and publicly support the Jewish state, may many blessings and peace be upon them. I refer to such people as truly the vanguard of the righteous among the nations.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 23, 2010 at 01:33 AM. )

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Jun 21, 2010, 10:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Wall of Text
So, all your arguments still come down to "my version of The Truth is superior to your version of The Truth", eh? Nothing new there.

You really are like a child in the sandbox wanting to keep out the other kids you don't like and, in addition, also wanting to put down the other kids you keep out for not being like you. I really, really, really hope your apocalyptic prophecies come true so you and the rest of your ilk--all the other JudeoChrIslamic fundamentalists waiting for their respective saviors--can just go away and not bother the rest of us on this planet.

So go ahead and keep positing your "My God is better than your God" argument and I will keep positing my "your religion is immature and irrelevant" argument. It gives us both something to do to pass the time.
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Jun 22, 2010, 12:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
So, all your arguments still come down to "my version of The Truth is superior to your version of The Truth", eh? Nothing new there.
If there were truly nothing new or interesting in what I wrote, then why did you bother to reply to me? My posts have a lot more substance than what you mockingly suggest, but if you gain comfort by posting inane replies then I'm happy you're happy.

You really are like a child in the sandbox wanting to keep out the other kids you don't like and, in addition, also wanting to put down the other kids you keep out for not being like you.
I don't put the "other kids" down for not being like me. As I said I don't mean to imply I want to turn the rest of the world into religious Jews. I went to great lengths to dispel that claim. I will not, however, shy away from telling people the truth even if it is offensive to them.

I really, really, really hope your apocalyptic prophecies come true so you and the rest of your ilk--all the other JudeoChrIslamic fundamentalists waiting for their respective saviors--can just go away and not bother the rest of us on this planet.
Did you purposely omit Islamic fundamentalists from that expressed hope of yours? Anyway, I thank you for your hope and desire that my prophecies come to pass quickly. You should want the Jewish prophecies to be fulfilled because the Jewish vision of the future is an optimistic one for all of mankind. You won't have to worry about me bothering you about the prophecies once they are fulfilled, though - you'll be too busy seeking out my people, asking for them to impart their G-dly wisdom to you. (See Zechariah 8.)

So go ahead and keep positing your "My God is better than your God" argument and I will keep positing my "your religion is immature and irrelevant" argument. It gives us both something to do to pass the time.
My religion is infinitely more relevant than anything you've got going on in your tiny corner of the world, dc, rest assured.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 22, 2010 at 12:48 AM. )

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Jun 22, 2010, 12:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
My religion is infinitely more relevant than anything you've got going on in your tiny corner of the world, dc, rest assured.
Ha! Ha! Ha! I love it.

This is awesome. I'm practically crying here from the laughter.

You are still trying to one-up me. It's like I'm back in 2nd-grade with my best friend and we are on the playground seeing who can do more chinups.

Oh, you slay me, Big Mac. Thanks for the laughs.
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Jun 22, 2010, 12:41 AM
 
PS: Re-read my post. I used the term "Judeo-ChrIslamic" when talking about ALL the religious fundamentalists in the three Abrahamic faiths.
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Jun 22, 2010, 05:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
You are still trying to one-up me. It's like I'm back in 2nd-grade with my best friend and we are on the playground seeing who can do more chinups.
No, I'm not trying to one-up you. Besides, my debate in this thread was mostly with Taliesin.

Oh, you slay me, Big Mac. Thanks for the laughs.
Most of what you've done in this thread is , and laughing, my friend, is not an argument. It may be a decent enough rhetorical device, but it's not an argument. But again, I'm such a generous guy that I'm happy to bring some happiness into your otherwise dark existence.

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy View Post
PS: Re-read my post. I used the term "Judeo-ChrIslamic" when talking about ALL the religious fundamentalists in the three Abrahamic faiths.
Ah, so you did. You got me there.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 22, 2010 at 05:55 PM. )

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Jun 22, 2010, 06:25 PM
 
Sometimes I think the worst part of being an atheist is that you know believers will never find out that they were wrong.
     
ThinkInsane
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Jun 22, 2010, 11:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Well that certainly isn't going to happen. We simply don't have the capacity for that with our troops tied up in Afghanistan and Iraq.

OAW
Yeah, I don't know about that. I'm not saying it would happen, but have you looked at a map of the region? Having active combat theaters on two separate borders with Iran, with logistics and troops already in place for sustained combat operations is a pretty sweet setup, strategically speaking.
Nemo me impune lacesset
     
OAW
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Jun 23, 2010, 12:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by ThinkInsane View Post
Yeah, I don't know about that. I'm not saying it would happen, but have you looked at a map of the region? Having active combat theaters on two separate borders with Iran, with logistics and troops already in place for sustained combat operations is a pretty sweet setup, strategically speaking.
Oh it has to be making the Iranian government nervous. Especially when Bush was on his "Axis of Evil" kick. On a side note I don't ever expect Iran to halt uranium enrichment while US troops are on both of its flanks. I guess my point is that while the US could certainly attack Iran with the current setup, I think a full scale ground invasion is highly unlikely. My reasoning is ....

1. We don't have enough troops on the ground to effectively hold Iraq and Afghanistan.

2. The Army and Marine Corps are nearly at the breaking point due to the constant deployments over the last 7-8 years.

3. Iran is nearly the size of Iraq and Afghanistan combined. We don't have enough troops to occupy a country of that size by itself, let alone that country and 2 others.

OAW
     
Snow-i
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Jun 23, 2010, 12:24 PM
 
Yeah, if anything happens...It would just be the flattening of iran's military complex.

I forsee action against NK before Iran. Some trigger happy troops on the SK border and bingo, war.
     
dcmacdaddy
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Jun 23, 2010, 06:36 PM
 
One should never stop striving for clarity of thought and precision of expression.
I would prefer my humanity sullied with the tarnish of science rather than the gloss of religion.
     
   
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