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WikiLeaks latest will erode trust between the US and her allies (Page 3)
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OAW
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Dec 7, 2010, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Looks like the authorities are overstepping their boundaries a little.
- The bank has apparently justified freezing Assange's assets by saying he has given an invalid address when opening the account.
- The Swedish authorities had to fix their arrest warrant twice. From what I can gather, the allegations of sexual assault/sexual misconduct seem sort of fishy. He was very quickly put on the Red Notice list (= most wanted list).
- The British cops wouldn't even tell Assange what they arrested him for.

Meanwhile, he's not charged with anything in conjunction with his work at wikileaks (at least not officially).
Oh I agree wholeheartedly that he's being arrested on some trumped up BS. My point is that he had to know that eventually the powers that be were going to come after him.

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Dork.
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Dec 7, 2010, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Even though I absolutely agree the leak has a negative impact on certain aspects of US and international policy, I think there is a difference between leaking records regarding private individuals and matters of state. I think government actions do not fall into the same category.

Furthermore, the US and many European countries have happily used stolen bank data to prosecute tax evaders. Now that this openness is inconvenient, the US* is trying to squash him -- some people are calling wikileaks a terrorist organization

* I think most states would react in the same way.
Calling Wikileaks a terrorist organization is absurd, of course. But why should the government not be able to keep certain things secret, especially when it comes to matters of diplomacy? It is like playing poker with all your cards face-up. There are certain things that it is simply prudent to keep secret.

A reasonable line to draw (that applies to both Governments and private citizens) is that you have a right to keep your affairs secret, unless you are suspected using that secrecy to commit a crime. This is why we require warrants before property is searched by the police here: law enforcement has to demonstrate a reasonable suspicion of a crime before violating your privacy.

The main objection I have to wikileaks is that they insist on dumping everything they can get their hands on, whether or not there is evidence of anything illegal (or even interesting!). The fact that they gave the cables to news organizations ahead of time indicates that they're concerned with this, too. But it's as if they're pushing off the responsibility of sifting through the information to others, and still have a "release everything" bias. I don't think its useful, and I do think it's harmful, although not in the same way that a terrorist is harmful.
     
BadKosh
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Dec 7, 2010, 02:13 PM
 
I can't wait to see all the evidence of his sexual behavior leaked all over the internet. Whats good for the goose....
     
OAW
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Dec 7, 2010, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I can't wait to see all the evidence of his sexual behavior leaked all over the internet. Whats good for the goose....
For having "consensual but unprotected sex"? Surely you realize there is a reason why this is being reported as "rape and sexual molestation" instead of the earlier characterization that the alleged "victim" admitted to? Having said that Mr. Assange is being quite irresponsible. His antics would be more justifiable if he was exposing illegality or corruption or cover ups. But to kick up this much dust on some anarchist ideology tip is pretty stupid.

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BadKosh
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Dec 7, 2010, 03:56 PM
 
Its more a matter of having his dirty laundry shown to the world in the name of transparency to see if he likes being on the other end if all that.
     
lpkmckenna  (op)
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Dec 7, 2010, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Respected media outlets collaborate with WikiLeaks. So is this "aid to terrorists," Mitch McConnell? You fncking useless sh!thead.
I was sorta kidding, not really thinking any politician would be stupid enough to make such a suggestion. And then Joe Lieberman has the nerve to threaten newpapers with epionage charges?!? US Senator Joe Lieberman suggests New York Times could be investigated.
A leading US senator suggested tonight that the New York Times and other news organisations publishing the US embassy cables being released by WikiLeaks could be investigated for breaking American espionage laws.

Joe Lieberman, the chair of the Senate homeland security committee, told Fox News: "To me the New York Times has committed at least an act of, at best, bad citizenship, but whether they have committed a crime is a matter of discussion for the justice department."
So, will the cowardly US press stand up to this @ssh0le? And is it any surprise you made these threats on Fox News?
At the daily state department briefing in Washington, DC, Philip Crowley, the department's press spokesman, said: "What WikiLeaks has done is a crime under US law."
Really? Then file charges. Put up, or shut up.
     
BadKosh
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Dec 7, 2010, 04:49 PM
 
Yeah, it would be a shame for the press to follow the law.
     
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Dec 7, 2010, 04:50 PM
 
At this point my outrage to the US's reaction to wikileaks far outstrips my outrage to its actual contents.
     
OreoCookie
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Dec 7, 2010, 07:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dork. View Post
Calling Wikileaks a terrorist organization is absurd, of course. But why should the government not be able to keep certain things secret, especially when it comes to matters of diplomacy? It is like playing poker with all your cards face-up. There are certain things that it is simply prudent to keep secret.
That wasn't the point of my argument. Instead of coming straight at Assange for what they really have a beef with (leaking documents), they come at him with bs that has nothing to do with the elephant in the room.

Even though he has not officially been charged with any wrongdoing regarding his activities at wikileaks, companies and governments already pretend that he does: banks freeze assets, he's put on the international most wanted list for an entirely different matter (that doesn't warrant such a reaction) and companies block access to a website that hasn't been taken down because of illegal activities. And all these childish reactions will do nothing: the material has been downloaded and similar sites are in the process of being built (or perhaps they exist already, who knows).

I totally get that governments want to curb this type of activity. But it seems to me that they cannot charge him with something. It's not as if Assange is out of legal reach if he's in the UK. Perhaps a lawyer/legally inclined member can explain this: how come Assange hasn't been charged? What would/could he be charged with realistically?
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SpaceMonkey
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Dec 7, 2010, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I totally get that governments want to curb this type of activity. But it seems to me that they cannot charge him with something. It's not as if Assange is out of legal reach if he's in the UK. Perhaps a lawyer/legally inclined member can explain this: how come Assange hasn't been charged? What would/could he be charged with realistically?
In theory, you could argue that he should be charged in the U.S. under the Espionage Act, which reads in part:

"Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it...

...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both."

(It's important to note that the State Department's general counsel sent Assange a letter on Nov. 27 demanding the return/destruction of the material, in order to satisfy the conditions set at the end of that quoted section.)

As a practical matter, though, I believe it would be extremely difficult to prosecute him successfully, both because of extradition issues and First Amendment issues. There's a Washington Post article that lays out the problems pretty well:
WikiLeaks founder could be charged under Espionage Act

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Dec 8, 2010, 02:09 AM
 
WikiLeaks cables: Lockerbie bomber freed after Gaddafi's 'thuggish' threats.

Unbelievable. And in the middle of a "War on Terror" too.
     
Taliesin
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Dec 8, 2010, 04:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
WikiLeaks cables: Lockerbie bomber freed after Gaddafi's 'thuggish' threats.

Unbelievable. And in the middle of a "War on Terror" too.
Why is it unbelievable? It's in the interest of any state to do what it can to secure the interests of its citizens, espescially if that citizen sits in a foreign prison as an innocent man. To threaten with the denial of commercial trade with the UK in the case of death in prison of Megrahi may be a harsh reaction but it is fully within the rights of souvereign states to do so if they deem it necessary.

Everyone and the pope knows that the iranians conducted the Lockerbie-bombing in retaliation for the bombing of one of its own civilian airliners by the US and that Megrahi was being punished as a scapegoat.

Despite this, Lybia agreed to pay a huge sum as compensation to the victims of the Lockerbie-bombing and giving up its nuclear-program just to get good relations with the western world. The release of Megrahi in return is but a small symbolic act compared to that.

I like these wikileaks, every day something new is revealed, it should keep us entertained for at least a year. I guess that's why the US-administration and other governments are working so hard to put an end to this, there may be still some non-published "hot potatoes". Of course they can't keep it from being published on the internet, but I guess they try hard to prevent the mainstream-press from further reporting by calling and punishing it as an act of espionage. It will be interesting to see if the right to free speech trumps that or not.

In other news:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2010/12/152465.htm

Any chance they would give the prize to Assange?
( Last edited by Taliesin; Dec 8, 2010 at 04:39 AM. )
     
ebuddy
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Dec 8, 2010, 08:29 AM
 
Next up... Wikislander or better yet, Shitlist®.

Ever wanted to blow the whistle on the impropriety of your boss? Ex-girlfriend? Bosses' ex-girlfriend? Got some juicy gossip on a local celeb such as their lack-luster tipping habits in restaurants, groping of waitresses? Or how about the sexual misconduct of a politician (preferably from the left)? Submit your anonymous bits to me along with your city/state and I will begin compiling them.
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Dec 8, 2010, 10:02 AM
 
It's called "TMZ"...it's on your TV all day every day
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osiris
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Dec 8, 2010, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
It's called "TMZ"...it's on your TV all day every day
I also would've accepted any one of Rupert Murdoch's media outlets as an answer.
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Dork.
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Dec 8, 2010, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
In other news:

U.S. to Host World Press Freedom Day in 2011

Any chance they would give the prize to Assange?
Only if he agrees to show up in person to accept the prize.
     
SpaceMonkey
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Dec 8, 2010, 12:09 PM
 
As usual, Robert Wright has written something I wish I had written:
Julian Assange: Neocon Tool? - NYTimes.com

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OreoCookie
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Dec 8, 2010, 12:49 PM
 
Thanks for the link, SpaceMonkey, interesting read! Pretty much says where I'm coming from as well.
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BadKosh
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Dec 8, 2010, 01:05 PM
 
Interesting that he's now going after his 'enemies.' How did he make them enemies?
     
Taliesin
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Dec 9, 2010, 04:11 AM
 
Another day, another revelation, the wikileaks-cables show that the US have indeed embedded US-soldiers within the pakistan army to fight the taliban in Pakistan!

Yesterday or the day before that it was revealed that the Nato agreed on a secret plan to expand the defense for Poland against Russia to other baltic states (it was Germany that suggested it, and Hillary Clinton told the Nato-members to keep this plan secret to prevent angering Russia).
     
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Dec 9, 2010, 07:37 AM
 
U.S. Soldiers embedded in the Pakistani army are "advisers." How much effect could just a few of our Soldiers have inside Pakistani units that are already suspected of being pro-Taliban, if complete, fully manned U.S. units in Afghanistan are still having plenty of trouble? Advisers are intended to assist in "professionalizing" foreign military organizations-reducing desertion rates, improving discipline, and preventing individual soldiers' abuse of their power.

NATO plans are not all "active plans." There were NATO plans for counterattacking Soviet forces at the Fulda Gap-they were never enacted because the Soviets never came over the border. Plans are just plans. Getting one's undies in a wad over plans is like being upset that drivers keep sand bags in their trunks in snowy weather...

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OreoCookie
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Dec 9, 2010, 09:02 AM
 
@glenn
I think many of the things are just a matter of definition. For a long time, German politicians would claim the situation in Afghanistan is only `war-like,' but that Afghanistan isn't a `war zone.'

Whether you interpret things one way or the other may be a matter of personal taste, but once the raw information is out in the open, everybody can make up their own mind.
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SpaceMonkey
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Dec 9, 2010, 10:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
U.S. Soldiers embedded in the Pakistani army are "advisers." How much effect could just a few of our Soldiers have inside Pakistani units that are already suspected of being pro-Taliban, if complete, fully manned U.S. units in Afghanistan are still having plenty of trouble? Advisers are intended to assist in "professionalizing" foreign military organizations-reducing desertion rates, improving discipline, and preventing individual soldiers' abuse of their power.
If we've been told one thing by the Pentagon, that the mission of American soldiers there is confined to training Pakistani forces, but it turns out they are doing something else, that is, engage in combat operations, I think that's a bit serious in terms of limiting the public's understanding of where the country is waging war.

NATO plans are not all "active plans." There were NATO plans for counterattacking Soviet forces at the Fulda Gap-they were never enacted because the Soviets never came over the border. Plans are just plans. Getting one's undies in a wad over plans is like being upset that drivers keep sand bags in their trunks in snowy weather...
Completely agree. We need to have plans to defend our allies (that we haven't done this until now actually is a point of friction with the newer NATO members like the Baltic states)

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The Final Dakar
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Dec 10, 2010, 02:13 PM
 
OpenLeaks to mimic WikiLeaks—minus the "political agenda"
I'm curious how people who objected to wikileaks based on Assange's agenda feel about this.

Personally, this is what's so great about the internet. As complaints of wikileaks build a new alternative quickly emerges.
     
ghporter
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Dec 11, 2010, 07:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
@glenn
I think many of the things are just a matter of definition. For a long time, German politicians would claim the situation in Afghanistan is only `war-like,' but that Afghanistan isn't a `war zone.'

Whether you interpret things one way or the other may be a matter of personal taste, but once the raw information is out in the open, everybody can make up their own mind.
The definition of "war zone" is rather critical to German military operations, considering their legal restrictions. Technically, there's no "declared war" ongoing there, so the use of "war-like" is accurate-and essential to Germany's participation in NATO operations there. When you're dealing with legalities, little details become essential.

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
If we've been told one thing by the Pentagon, that the mission of American soldiers there is confined to training Pakistani forces, but it turns out they are doing something else, that is, engage in combat operations, I think that's a bit serious in terms of limiting the public's understanding of where the country is waging war.
"Engaging in combat operations" is an ambiguous term. Being with a unit when it engages in combat fits that term, but again, how much impact will two or three Soldiers have within a brigade or even a company in the field? They are almost certainly there advising the field commander, providing feedback to him on what's happening and what his troops should be doing, and perhaps providing communications up to US headquarters for enhanced information that commander can use. "Engaging in combat" also encompasses "use of weapons to defend oneself when fired upon; would you suggest that our advisors are actually super-soldiers who can play like Iron Man while providing advice?
Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey View Post
Completely agree. We need to have plans to defend our allies (that we haven't done this until now actually is a point of friction with the newer NATO members like the Baltic states)
NATO has had plans for using massive amounts of nuclear weapons against Soviet forces, for reacting to the fall of just about any Central European government to Communist actions, and to deal with humanitarian needs on either side of the old "Iron Curtain." I have plans for what to do if I have a flat on the way to work...it hasn't happened yet, but I still know what to do if I have to.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Dec 11, 2010, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Why is it unbelievable? It's in the interest of any state to do what it can to secure the interests of its citizens, espescially if that citizen sits in a foreign prison as an innocent man. To threaten with the denial of commercial trade with the UK in the case of death in prison of Megrahi may be a harsh reaction but it is fully within the rights of souvereign states to do so if they deem it necessary.

Everyone and the pope knows that the iranians conducted the Lockerbie-bombing in retaliation for the bombing of one of its own civilian airliners by the US and that Megrahi was being punished as a scapegoat.

Despite this, Lybia agreed to pay a huge sum as compensation to the victims of the Lockerbie-bombing and giving up its nuclear-program just to get good relations with the western world. The release of Megrahi in return is but a small symbolic act compared to that.

I like these wikileaks, every day something new is revealed, it should keep us entertained for at least a year. I guess that's why the US-administration and other governments are working so hard to put an end to this, there may be still some non-published "hot potatoes". Of course they can't keep it from being published on the internet, but I guess they try hard to prevent the mainstream-press from further reporting by calling and punishing it as an act of espionage. It will be interesting to see if the right to free speech trumps that or not.

In other news:

U.S. to Host World Press Freedom Day in 2011

Any chance they would give the prize to Assange?
Dude,

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OreoCookie
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Dec 16, 2010, 09:01 AM
 
This is a pretty nice article summing up what has happened to Assange.
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imitchellg5
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Dec 16, 2010, 12:50 PM
 
Made this in boredom last night:

     
SpaceMonkey
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Dec 21, 2010, 02:31 PM
 
Leaks may or may not erode the trust between the U.S. and its allies, but they certainly can be unpleasant for Mr. Assange:

WikiLeaks' Assange: I'm the victim of leaks - The Globe and Mail

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Doofy
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:57 PM
 
Assange has truly excelled lately...

BBC News - Wikileaks given data on Swiss bank accounts

A former Swiss banker has passed on data containing account details of 2,000 prominent people to Wikileaks founder Julian Assange.
...
The data covers multinationals, financial firms and wealthy individuals from many countries, including the UK, US and Germany, and covers the period 1990-2009, according to a report in Swiss newspaper Der Sonntag.
...
Speaking at the handover event at the Frontline Club, he said the data would be vetted before publication.

It was difficult to say how long this would take, he said, although he suggested it could be as little as two weeks.

The vetting would depend on the volume of information and how it was delegated, Mr Assange said.

Other groups - such as the Tax Justice Network or financial media outlets - might be asked to help in the vetting process, he added.
In bed with the Tax Justice Network? Even contemplating getting into bed with that bunch of donkeyorifices?
Best add old Doof to the list of people who want him thrown into a deep dark hole.
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OreoCookie
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Jan 17, 2011, 06:07 PM
 
@Doofy
You forgot to mention that wikileaks also played a significant part in the ousting of Ben Ali, the dictator who ruled Tunisia. This time, it actually helped the US' credibility since the diplomatic cables confirm what the populous thinks of Ben Ali's extended family.
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Jan 17, 2011, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Assange has truly excelled lately...

BBC News - Wikileaks given data on Swiss bank accounts



In bed with the Tax Justice Network? Even contemplating getting into bed with that bunch of donkeyorifices?
Best add old Doof to the list of people who want him thrown into a deep dark hole.
Please, PLEASE wear your Doofy shirt for the "perp" walk..
     
Doofy
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Jan 18, 2011, 10:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by stumblinmike View Post
Please, PLEASE wear your Doofy shirt for the "perp" walk..
That was a very useful post.
Have you ever considered signing up for lessons in how not to be a cretin?
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Jan 18, 2011, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
That was a very useful post.
Have you ever considered signing up for lessons in how not to be a cretin?
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Jan 19, 2011, 12:24 AM
 
Hmmm, I doubt there's enough in mine or Doof's accounts to be mentioned, 8 figures is peanuts.
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Feb 5, 2011, 08:35 AM
 
So the obama administration has given the RUSSIANs information on all the nukes we are selling to the UK? Is our president out to ruin the US credibility at all costs? That man is an absolute idiot. Thats the best the democratic party had to offer?
     
Shaddim
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May 11, 2011, 09:54 PM
 
Such delicious irony, Wikileaks fighting to plug up leaks.

WikiLeaks Threatens Its Own Leakers With $20 Million Penalty | Threat Level | Wired.com
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May 11, 2011, 10:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Such delicious irony, Wikileaks fighting to plug up leaks.

WikiLeaks Threatens Its Own Leakers With $20 Million Penalty | Threat Level | Wired.com
Yup. I like what WikiLeaks has done, but that is rife with irony. Now, I'm waiting for WikiLeaksLeaks.
     
 
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