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Major leak about the palestinian-israeli-peace-process...
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Taliesin
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Jan 24, 2011, 04:31 AM
 
Apparantely the wikileaks-example finds its imitators in unexpected regions:

Al-Jazeera has obtained about 1,600 confidential records of meetings, emails, communications between Palestinian, Israeli and US leaders, covering the years 2000-2010.

According to these the palestinian side offered major concessions, like for example to let Israel keep most jewish settlements in East-Jerusalem in exchange for israeli land elsewhere and to let an international commitee to take control of the islamic holy sites in Jerusalem and to restrict the return of palestinians to Israel to 100,000 palestinians over 10 years.

Despite the major concessions by the palestinian side the offer was rejected by Israel with no proposed offer in return.

Additionally they also show that the palestinian authority under Abbas was "privately tipped off" about Israel's invasion in Gaza.

Personally I think the palestinian authority went too far with their offer, obviously a sign of its weakness and desperation, but the leaks also show that Israel is not interested in reaching a deal no matter how generous.

The leak will probably have considerable consequences.

Source: BBC News - Palestinians question 'offers' leaked by al-Jazeera
( Last edited by Taliesin; Jan 26, 2011 at 04:46 AM. )
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 24, 2011, 04:47 AM
 
The rightwing coalition running Israel has no interest in peace. They are perfectly happy with the state of things now. But Abbas and Fatah are now screwed and the Palestinians are gonna turn against them completely. Expect terrorism against Israelis to increase. Mission accomplished, hawks!

The Obama administration will now be under greater pressure to gut the ludicrious 3 billion in annual aid to Israel, given their complete lack of interest in peace. But Obama doesn't have the courage to apply the required pressure on Israel.

Israel is America's real welfare queen. Cut those dollars, Barry.
     
Big Mac
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Jan 24, 2011, 05:26 AM
 
If only Israel were as tough and uncompromising as you Arabists and leftists make her out to be, the conflict would have been finished decades ago.

This diplomacy apparently occurred under the Kadima left-wing government headed by Olmert. He wasn't a hawk by any stretch. If the Arab concessions weren't good enough for him they must have been very small concessions indeed.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jan 24, 2011 at 05:36 AM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 24, 2011, 07:18 AM
 
Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
     
ghporter
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Jan 24, 2011, 07:55 AM
 
The problem with leaks like this presented by a party that has an obvious agenda is that you can't trust that what they release is both accurate and complete. It could be, sure. But al Jazeera releasing this makes it impossible to trust the information. What did they not release? Is there some caveat that the Palestinians included that was quietly not included in what al Jazeera published?

All diplomatic activity is like sausage making, and it takes a very naive person to accept short sound bites and "excerpts" as the entire content of discussions. I'm not saying any party in this is without guile or hidden agendas, but I absolutely do not trust that al Jazeera would publish positives about US or Israeli bargaining points. Leopards don't change their spots, and all that...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
sek929
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Jan 24, 2011, 10:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
If only Israel were as tough and uncompromising as you Arabists and leftists make her out to be, the conflict would have been finished decades ago.
Hehe, well said

When "Palestine" starts to build schools and teach their children something other than Jewish hatred maybe rational people will take them seriously.
     
Chongo
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Jan 24, 2011, 11:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Leviticus 19:34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
Too bad the Jordanians (where 99% of the "Palestinians" live) do not abide by this. As has been pointed out numerous times, the vast majority of the "Palestine Mandate" is now Jordan, so they have always had a "homeland." It's never been about a homeland anyway.
     
subego
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Jan 24, 2011, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Hehe, well said
Plus one.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 25, 2011, 12:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
t's never been about a homeland anyway.
It isn't. What is it about then?
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Jan 25, 2011, 02:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Too bad the Jordanians (where 99% of the "Palestinians" live) do not abide by this. As has been pointed out numerous times, the vast majority of the "Palestine Mandate" is now Jordan, so they have always had a "homeland." It's never been about a homeland anyway.
Everything in this subject has been pointed out numerous (as in COUNTLESS) times.

The problem is, the anti-Israel side is completely uninterested in facts, just spouting more of the usual "blame Israel for everything- ignore/rewrite/revise all the actual history".

Talk about a subject that got old years ago. Yeah, yeah, we get it. For the 20-millionth time, the meme is: Palestinians= pure as the wind driven snow, poor innocent little victims. Israel = evil. Yeah. Sure.
     
ghporter
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Jan 25, 2011, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
It isn't. What is it about then?
It's about a population without a working government to support them. The Palestinian Authority is rife with internal dissent and lacks sufficient structure to manage itself, let alone the Palestinian territories. Jordan used to weild the Palestinians as a cudgel, threatening all in the area with "what about the Palestinians?" rhetoric (when the King of Jordan was a major actor in preventing the creation of a Palestinian state parallel with Israel in the mid 1940s).

It's rather important to note that there are three different words of interest in this subject area. "Nation" (in this context) describes a group of people bound together by shared values, culture and often religion. "Country" describes a geographical area with particular physical bounds, whether associated with a nation of people or not. "State" refers to a governmental body that seeks to assert power over a population within a given geographical area. They are not equal. The Palestinians are, as a group, not really a nation due to some seriously divisive religious and cultural issues. They seek a particular territory (most of which historically included territory within Jordan-which is why the King blocked statehood in the 1940s) for their "country," but appear to be flexible on this-in part because their cultural heritage seems to have been diluted by decades of statelessness. The Palestinian Authority seeks to be a state, but lacks the support of its population and perceived authority to be effective as a government. In short, the Palestinians are displaced like the Jews were, but without the binding cultural glue that remained within Jewish culture through and after the Diaspora.

It's about a large population that has existed to be pawns for the Arab/Islamic governments of the region for most of a century. Which pales in comparison to the fact that the same population was pawns for the British under the Protectorate, and pawns of every other power that was in charge of the region since the time of the Romans.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Everything in this subject has been pointed out numerous (as in COUNTLESS) times.

The problem is, the anti-Israel side is completely uninterested in facts, just spouting more of the usual "blame Israel for everything- ignore/rewrite/revise all the actual history".

Talk about a subject that got old years ago. Yeah, yeah, we get it. For the 20-millionth time, the meme is: Palestinians= pure as the wind driven snow, poor innocent little victims. Israel = evil. Yeah. Sure.
Unfortunately, the anti-Israel side is simply loud enough and consistently negative enough to dilute its own less extreme constituents' views and become monolithic in its appearance as venomous and violent. There IS no organized anti-Israel side. It's a bunch of groups that have allowed their messages to be merged into an extreme, violent one, whether the groups merely want their hereditary lands back (mere acres in most cases) or the permanent annihilation of all Jews everywhere.

In Exodus, Leon Uris quoted an old saw common in the Mid-east. To paraphrase, it said that if you give 12 Jews a device, you'd get 12 different ways to use it, but if you gave the same device to 12 Palestinians, you'd get many times that number of ways to use it. This illustrates a long-time problem for the Palestinians: they lack cohesion as a group, and are perceived, even among themselves, as lacking individual cohesion. How can the Palestinian Authority seek to bargain "in the name of" this group of people when many of them are not even under the formal control of the Authority, and when those who are are splintered and suspicious of each other?

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Jan 25, 2011, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Everything in this subject has been pointed out numerous (as in COUNTLESS) times.

The problem is, the anti-Israel side is completely uninterested in facts, just spouting more of the usual "blame Israel for everything- ignore/rewrite/revise all the actual history".

Talk about a subject that got old years ago. Yeah, yeah, we get it. For the 20-millionth time, the meme is: Palestinians= pure as the wind driven snow, poor innocent little victims. Israel = evil. Yeah. Sure.
The exact same thing can be said about the pro-Israel-anti-palestinian-side except blaming the arabs.

The fact is both sentiments are wrong, since both sides have legitimate interests and rights to be worked out.

Taliesin
     
imitchellg5
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Jan 25, 2011, 12:00 PM
 
So Palestine offered Israel the land that they wanted but then Israel rejected the offer, Palestine started to build on the land, and Israel got pissed off? These kids...
     
BadKosh
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Jan 25, 2011, 01:31 PM
 
Is bickering is all the middle-easterners have to offer?
     
OAW
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Jan 25, 2011, 04:41 PM
 
It's getting to the point where a two-state solution is untenable. The State of Israel should just annex the Occupied Territories and call it a day. Establish a "one person - one vote" democracy for all its inhabitants and be done with this foolishness.

OAW
     
Chongo
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Jan 25, 2011, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
It's getting to the point where a two-state solution is untenable. The State of Israel should just annex the Occupied Territories and call it a day. Establish a "one person - one vote" democracy for all its inhabitants and be done with this foolishness.

OAW
Israel screwed up when it allowed the term "occupied territories" to be used.
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Jan 26, 2011, 04:44 AM
 
The story of the leak continues. Apparantely the british MI6 was involved in a plan dating back to 2004 to:

"degrading the capabilities of rejectionists", naming Hamas, PIJ (Palestinian Islamic Jihad) and the al-Aqsa Brigades.

This would involve "the disruption of their leaderships' communications and command and control capabilities; the detention of key middle-ranking officers; and the confiscation of their arsenals and financial resources held within the Occupied Territories".

The document goes on to suggest: "We could also explore the temporary internment of leading Hamas and PIJ figures, making sure they are well-treated, with EU funding".
and even more controversial it also details the cooperation if not outright collaboration between Israel's defence minister Shaul Mofaz and palestinian interior minister Nasser Youssef:

In it, the men discuss Hassan al-Madhoun, a member of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades which is linked to Hamas' rival, Fatah.

Mr Mofaz asks: "Why don't you kill him?", to which Mr Youssef replies that he has given instructions to West Bank security chief Rasheed Abu Shabak" and that "we will see".

Hassan al-Madhoun was killed in an Israeli air strike a few months later.
Source: BBC News - Palestinian papers: UK's MI6 'tried to weaken Hamas'

When all is said and done about the 1,600 secret records, it will probably leave the palestinian authority in the dust, completely compromised and delegitimised.

By the way it's not just Al-Jazeera that has these secret records, the british guardian has it all, too.

If the two-state-solution is untenable as it seems today (and it will be if the US doesn't force Israel with all its political, diplomatic and economic might to acknowledge the UN-SC-resolutions and to withdraw to the pre-67-borders, so that a continous, viable palestinian state can be founded in the Westbank), even made more improbable because of the compromising of the PA, then I suggest that the palestinians give up the two-state-solution and go for the "one-state-one-person-one-vote"-route.

Taliesin
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 26, 2011, 02:19 PM
 
Fatah have apparently struck back against Al Jezeera: Studio used by Al Jazeera ransacked in West Bank.
They have accused Qatar, the Gulf emirate where Al Jazeera is based, of standing behind a "smear campaign" designed to undermine Abbas. Qatar has ties to Hamas, the Islamist group which seized the Gaza Strip from Abbas's Authority in 2007.

Abbas loyalists tried to break into Al Jazeera's studios in the West Bank administrative center of Ramallah this week. There was also a demonstration against the channel in Jericho.

Palestinian officials, who in 2009 briefly banned Al Jazeera from operating during a similar row, say the channel has hyped up the content. They fault it for not consulting them on the documents' authenticity before first broadcasting on Sunday.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Jan 27, 2011, 12:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
The exact same thing can be said about the pro-Israel-anti-palestinian-side except blaming the arabs.
It's not 'the exact same thing' by any stretch of the imagination.

The day people on the pro-Israel side routinely straps bombs on their children and send them on suicide missions to blow up innocent women and children on the other side, then when they create a culture that -even for a second- finds that not only acceptable, but somehow commendable- then I'll buy all of this 'both sides are equally guilty' nonsense.

Until then, no sale.

I'm sure there are a few 'extreme' and unreasonable people on the pro-Israel side, that maybe resort to making things up to support their claims, ignore/revise/rewrite history and facts counter to their claims, that martyr/fund/excuse/nurture unacceptable tactics like terrorism, etc... but honestly, I don't see it.

But all of the above -in some form or another- seems to me to be very common on the pro-Palestinian side.

The fact is both sentiments are wrong, since both sides have legitimate interests and rights to be worked out.
Sure, but see above. One of the legitimate interests that Israelis have that the Palestinians don't -anywhere near to the same degree- is dealing with the destruction caused by all of the things I mentioned above.

That's the major difference, and again why the whole "they're both equally guilty!" line of nonsense is just that.
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Jan 27, 2011, 05:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
It's not 'the exact same thing' by any stretch of the imagination.

The day people on the pro-Israel side routinely straps bombs on their children and send them on suicide missions to blow up innocent women and children on the other side, then when they create a culture that -even for a second- finds that not only acceptable, but somehow commendable- then I'll buy all of this 'both sides are equally guilty' nonsense.

Until then, no sale.

I'm sure there are a few 'extreme' and unreasonable people on the pro-Israel side, that maybe resort to making things up to support their claims, ignore/revise/rewrite history and facts counter to their claims, that martyr/fund/excuse/nurture unacceptable tactics like terrorism, etc... but honestly, I don't see it.

But all of the above -in some form or another- seems to me to be very common on the pro-Palestinian side.
If you recall, you and I were talking about the supporters for both sides, not the direct conflict-sides, but since you insist on changing the subject:

You are right, it's not the "'the exact same thing' by any stretch of the imagination", when talking about the direct conflict on the ground.

You can't blame dispossessed and occupied people for the means it chooses to liberate itself, the violence and its tactics are born out of weakness and of a deep feeling to settle score, to retaliate for lost lifes among the palestinians. The loss of palestinian life, mostly innocent, was always way higher than among the israelis.

The assymmetry, that is the fact that Israel is so much more powerful and controlling land, borders, ressources... and building jewish settlements around the palestinians, who don't have an army, while gradually dispossessing them created a dynamic that inspired a resistance (that is civilians who chose to fight for freedom) that over the time evolved ever more radical and violent as the moderate elements that engaged in civil disobedience and other non-violent-acts during the various uprisings were detained (detention without trial), tortured(bone-breaking-policy) and killed.

The problem is that such an environment brutalises a society and its children who only get to know israelis as monsters.

Suicide and martyrdom is very much a jewish concept, stemming from the story of Samson, who throw down a pillar to disrupt a plateau on which the people of his enemies some few thousand were gathering, killing them all, while sacrificing his own life.

When the jews themselves were occupied by Britain, they turned to terroristic activities from the day Britain didn't side with them anymore. If the britains had stayed on and decided to turn the holy land into an eternal british colony, dispossessing jews, bringing in british colonists... the jews would have radicalised more and more and while the moderates would die or be detentioned an evolution of the more and more radical would come to the forefront, luckily for them they achieved victory faster and the radical and moderate militants could go on founding a state, regulating themselves in army and policeforce... and unfortunately deciding to become occupiers themselves.

But that's all water down the bridge, we are here now with a situation that needs to be resolved, either through a two-state-solution or the south-african-solution of ending apartheid and realising the one-person-one-vote-democracy.

As can be seen through the leaks, the israeli side is not ready to give up any of the big settlements in the westbank, even not when the palestinians suggested to keep the settlements intact and to give the jewish settlers palestinian citizenship... so a two-state-solution is not possible, except if the US puts its foot down and confronts Israel to respect the UNSC-resolutions and to withdraw to the pre67-borders.

I don't know for sure if the US is ready to do that or not, but I doubt it. Given that, the palestinians should refocus and work towards ending the apartheid and to fight for the one-person-one-vote-right within Israel.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Sure, but see above. One of the legitimate interests that Israelis have that the Palestinians don't -anywhere near to the same degree- is dealing with the destruction caused by all of the things I mentioned above.

That's the major difference, and again why the whole "they're both equally guilty!" line of nonsense is just that.
Sure, see above, It's indeed nonesense, they are not both equally guilty, Israel is way more guilty and the damage it causes through the occupation is a way bigger than the damage the palestinians cause and ever caused, even during the hot phase of the second intifada. To not see that and put the blame on the oppressed requires some serious sort of reality-distortion.

But the supporters of both sides are both equally guilty of demonizing the other side and denying them their legitimate interests and rights.
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Jan 27, 2011, 05:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Fatah have apparently struck back against Al Jezeera: Studio used by Al Jazeera ransacked in West Bank.
To be expected, first they tried to claim that all of these leaks were lies and fabricated, when they realized it didn't sound very credible, they resorted to claim that positions of Israel and palestinian were mixed up, when that sounded not credible, they claimed that the quotes were taken out of context and just private musings and that nothing was decided, that they would have organized a referendum first... and the latest damage-control-campaign tries to accuse Al-Jazeera of publishing a smear-campaign against the PA in order to help Hamas citing Qatar's links to Hamas.

They are desperate and I don't think they will survive this.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Jan 27, 2011, 05:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
You can't blame dispossessed and occupied people for the means it chooses to liberate itself, the violence and its tactics are born out of weakness and of a deep feeling to settle score, to retaliate for lost lifes among the palestinians. The loss of palestinian life, mostly innocent, was always way higher than among the israelis.
Bullshit.
First off, the whole 'ddispossessed' and 'occupied' terms are exactly the type of lies I'm talking about engaged in by people on your side.

Secondly, -and I believe we've been over this before- the idea that we can't blame people for reprehensible actions, terrible decisions, aligning themselves with tyrants and terrorists and assholes of all stripe, etc. etc. is complete rubbish. The Palestinians would garner far more sympathy in the rest of the world if they didn't engage in acts of terror, align themselves with complete thugs, take part in a culture that allows violent acts to create martyrs and such. The Palestinians prove beyond all doubt: you reap what you sow.




The assymmetry, that is the fact that Israel is so much more powerful and controlling land, borders, ressources...
Oh wahh wahh. Here we go with the "Big Bad Israel vs. the teeny-tiny pitiful Arab nations thing again. Give it a rest already, this has got to be one of the world's most pussified arguments. The anti-Israeli crowd simply can't stomach the fact that tiny little Israel has stood like a giant against all their terror and agression (and proved it could do so long before the US was giving them support, as in 1948) and that they won't just roll over and die like they're supposed to.

The idea that all the Arab countries, filthy rich with oil and a gazillion times the size of Israel are all kicked around by this tiny country is such a pussified cop-out. Cry us all a river already. Israel is just the most glaring example of how the Muslim world simply can't get along with anyone else, and simply CAN'T -unless forced- live in harmony with ONE single nation the size of a fly-speck compared to their giant nations.

The problem is that such an environment brutalises a society and its children who only get to know israelis as monsters.
This is like expecting me to cry my eyes out for Hitler Youth because they "only got to know Jews as monsters."

So knock off the hateful propaganda then.

Now of course let's pretend that Israel regularly pumps its media as full of truly hateful propaganda against Muslims as the Palestinians and others do against Israel.



Suicide and martyrdom is very much a jewish concept, stemming from the story of Samson, who throw down a pillar to disrupt a plateau on which the people of his enemies some few thousand were gathering, killing them all, while sacrificing his own life.

When the jews themselves were occupied by Britain, they turned to terroristic activities from the day Britain didn't side with them anymore. If the britains had stayed on and decided to turn the holy land into an eternal british colony, dispossessing jews, bringing in british colonists... the jews would have radicalised more and more blah de blah
So we're honestly supposed to take any of this as any kind of legit "Jews are just as responsible for modern suicide bombers as the Palestinians are!" argument?

This kind of ridiculous stretch to try and create a moral equivalence is exactly the kind of rubbish I was talking about being mostly exclusive to the anti-Israel side.
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Jan 27, 2011, 05:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Bullshit.

...bla bla bla...

This kind of ridiculous stretch to try and create a moral equivalence is exactly the kind of rubbish I was talking about being mostly exclusive to the anti-Israel side.
There is no moral equivalence, Israel is as an occupier way more responsible than the palestinians, as the oppressed, it's the pro-israel-side that tries to create moral equivalence and some of them, like you, who bought and invested into the pro-israel-point-of-view, even go further, not only stretching for a moral equivalence, but trying to claim Israel had the moral high ground.

To call this a rediculous stretch would be an understatement.

Seriously this is over-the-top-insane.
     
sek929
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Jan 27, 2011, 09:23 AM
 
How does Israel NOT have the moral high ground?

Last I checked they've prospered in a land surrounded by those that despise them, and actively seek their destruction. The Palestinians are just a pawn for the larger conflict at hand and any country using their strife as a talking point is doing so simply to further their own anti-Jewish agenda.

I'll say it again. Once the Arab world starts acting like a modern civilized culture maybe this discussion will be relevant, so far all I see is a lot of whining about Jewish oppression....despite the dozens of neighboring Arab countries... and a lot of backwards thinking and hateful indoctrination.

I stand by Israel 100% They are a modern country and would have put this crap to bed long ago was it not for the pandering of weak politicians.
     
BadKosh
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Jan 27, 2011, 09:57 AM
 
The idiot Muslim nations attacked Israel and she defended herself and took some of your lands as punishment. Israel is a constant reminder of Muslim ineptitude and saber rattling when they couldn't deliver. It paints Muslims as big mouthed liars and violent blowhards. The one sided lies the Muslims are deluding themselves with is most of the problem. It has produced anger at the wrong people and ideas, all while the average Muslim male is unable to do even the simplest jobs as they all seem to have 'degrees' in Muslim studies and the like. No wonder they are stuck in the 10th century. They created their own problems.
     
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Jan 27, 2011, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
There is no moral equivalence, Israel is as an occupier way more responsible than the palestinians, as the oppressed, it's the pro-israel-side that tries to create moral equivalence and some of them, like you, who bought and invested into the pro-israel-point-of-view, even go further, not only stretching for a moral equivalence, but trying to claim Israel had the moral high ground.

To call this a rediculous stretch would be an understatement.

Seriously this is over-the-top-insane.
Despite a few bobbles, which they personally work to correct, Israel has always had the moral high ground. They're constantly attacked and persecuted by an entire continent of people who actively work for their destruction and who use the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as an excuse to further their own genocidal ambitions. The only people who think otherwise are anti-Semites or the deeply deluded.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
imitchellg5
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Jan 27, 2011, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
How does Israel NOT have the moral high ground?
Probably because they 1) have illegal weapons 2) use illegal weapons and 3) effectively keep Palestinians interned with the Gaza Strip. Double standards are great.
     
sek929
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Jan 27, 2011, 12:53 PM
 
Illegal weapons? Do the Palestinians have permits for their suicide bombers? Did Hamas file for air space rights when they started launching rockets at Israel?

Imagine, for a second, that our country were in a similar situation to Israel, surrounded by our enemies and constantly attacked and berated. The restraint they have shown is saintly IMO. I'd rather see the much better equipped Israeli army just deal with their enemies the way we do, you know, like invading two countries and removing radical extremists from power by force.

I understand there are plenty of innocent people caught in the middle, and it's a damn shame, but I would never accuse Israel of being to heavy handed, if anything they've moderated their rightful aggression very well.
     
imitchellg5
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Jan 27, 2011, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Illegal weapons? Do the Palestinians have permits for their suicide bombers? Did Hamas file for air space rights when they started launching rockets at Israel?
No. And that's my point. It's the worst thing ever when Arabs do something like that without asking nicely, but why is it just fine if Israel decides to send some airstrikes resulting in hundreds of civilian deaths?

Imagine, for a second, that our country were in a similar situation to Israel, surrounded by our enemies and constantly attacked and berated. The restraint they have shown is saintly IMO. I'd rather see the much better equipped Israeli army just deal with their enemies the way we do, you know, like invading two countries and removing radical extremists from power by force.

I understand there are plenty of innocent people caught in the middle, and it's a damn shame, but I would never accuse Israel of being to heavy handed, if anything they've moderated their rightful aggression very well.
If I were surrounded by neighbours who shot at me every day I'd be pissy too. But I don't think that means that Israel deserves some special allowance.
     
sek929
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Jan 27, 2011, 01:02 PM
 
It's not fine, but that's what warfare is. The Arabs lost at all out conflict, rather embarrassingly, so now they have reverted to guerilla-style tactics and willingly sacrifice their own people to continue their rally of hatred against the Jews.

I think they do deserve a special allowance. It's very easy to take the high road over here when our biggest threat is Mexicans who want to take care of our lawns.
     
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Jan 27, 2011, 01:37 PM
 
Taliesin makes some excellent points. Unfortunately the "rebuttals" he's encountering are relying on the same tired tactic of trying to equate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with the larger Israeli-Arab conflict. Where's Big Mac when you need him with his "There's no such thing as a Palestinian argument?" In any event, to argue that "Palestinians" ... or if you would prefer "Arab people who lived in the area known as Palestine for centuries" ... were not dispossessed of their land, homes, farms, etc. when the State of Israel was formed ... to argue that such individuals who currently reside in the West Bank are not occupied ... to argue that such individuals who currently reside in Gaza are not in the world's largest open air prison ... is nonsensical at best. The fact that surrounding Arab nations went to war with the State of Israel and got their asses handed to them by the Israeli armed forces ... twice ... does not change the facts on the ground with respect to the Palestinian people.

Now having said that ... the State of Israel is not going anywhere. It's continued existence ... right or wrong ... is a fait accompli. So now what?

There's the two-state solution ... which the Israelis clearly are not serious about and only pay lip service to as further evidenced by this Al-Jazeera leak.

There's the one-state, one-person / one- vote solution ... which the Jewish Israeli population fears above all else because in several generations the higher Palestinian birth rate will result in them becoming the majority in a democratic Israel/Palestine.

There's the ethnic cleansing solution ... which is totally impractical as well as the fact that the international community would never stand for the mass expulsion of millions of Palestinians.

And then there's the status quo solution ... which is to continue the Occupation and continue to treat Israeli-Arabs as second-class citizens because the only nation with the leverage to get them to stop, namely the United States, doesn't have the political will to do so.

So my prediction is that the PA will be severely weakened by this "leak" ... if it doesn't completely lose its credibility with the Palestinian people altogether. Hamas will be strengthened. And those who profit from the status quo will continue to do so.

OAW
     
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Jan 28, 2011, 10:34 AM
 
Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Yemen, etc... should absorb the entire population of the west bank, by offering to grant citizenship to those who want to leave.
The Arab countries who instigated the "refugee" problem should resettle them, and the quartet should facilitate such a move. The area entire(current day israel, West bank and possibly Gaza) should become part of Israel.

The Arabs who choose to resettle in other neighboring countries, and who successfully do so, can be given lifelong visit visas to the State of Israel if requested.

Seriously, migration of people of much greater magnitudes took place post World War II when India was divided into Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. Do you know how ridiculous it would be if, a Pakistani tried to claim "right of return" to a place in India(or vice versa) today ?

The problem isnt even the Palestinians, it's the neighboring Arab states who use them as pawns to try and conquer geographic area, instead of accommodating them socially and economically. (The same way Israel integrated the Jews exiled from Muslim countries after WWII).

Cheers

EDIT>> sorry for the typos guys.
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Jan 28, 2011 at 11:14 PM. )
     
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Jan 28, 2011, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Yemen, etc... should absorb the entire population of the west bank, but granting citizenship to those who want to leave.
Why should those countries grant citizenships to the Palestinians? Just because those are also predominantly muslim countries doesn't mean they necessarily have the same cultural roots.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
The area entire(current day israel, West bank and possibly Gaza) should become part of Israel.
That'd mean the current residents would become citizens of Israel. I don't think the Jewish-Israeli population wants to deal with a similarly sized muslim population (which is growing rapidly).
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Seriously, migration of people of much greater magnitudes took place post World War II when India was divided into Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.
You're writing this as if the Palestinian population just waits for the borders to neighboring muslim countries to open. Forced resettlement and expropriation is not exactly feasible either -- I don't think you should use one crime against humanity to justify another.
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imitchellg5
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Jan 28, 2011, 11:38 AM
 
Other Arab countries don't LIKE the Palestinians. They are supportive of their cause, sort of how many people would approve of subsidized low-income housing, just as long as it isn't in their neighborhood. It's the same thing.
     
sek929
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Jan 28, 2011, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Yemen, etc... should absorb the entire population of the west bank, but granting citizenship to those who want to leave.
The Arab countries who instigated the "refugee" problem should resettle them, and the quartet should facilitate such a most. The area entire(current day israel, West bank and possibly Gaza) should become part of Israel.

Cheers
Cheers indeed. Unfortunately the prosperous Arab states don't give the least amount of a shit about their 'brethren' and would rather have them kept in the West Bank for political and social leverage against the Evil Jewz™ Saudi Arabia could use its trillions of western dollars and build each family its own goddamn house, but looking for humanity from Arab countries is a waste of time.

They cry about the injustices of the Jews while sitting in their palaces casting down religiously fueled orders to the impoverished masses who carry out violence on their behalf. At least Israel has the nutsack to use its own military instead of uneducated pawns. It's sick and twisted, and pandering to these people will not end the violence in the ME.
     
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Jan 28, 2011, 06:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Yemen, etc... should absorb the entire population of the west bank, but granting citizenship to those who want to leave.
The Arab countries who instigated the "refugee" problem should resettle them, and the quartet should facilitate such a most. The area entire(current day israel, West bank and possibly Gaza) should become part of Israel.
So given this logic if the Moors decided to return to the Iberian Peninsula (modern day Portugal and Spain) in Europe which they ruled for 800 years ... longer than the Jews ever ruled Palestine in antiquity ... then France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, the U.K, Ireland, Italy, etc. should just absorb the entire population of their European "brethren" huh?

OAW
     
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Jan 28, 2011, 11:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Why should those countries grant citizenships to the Palestinians? Just because those are also predominantly muslim countries doesn't mean they necessarily have the same cultural roots.
Then those same countries should have no reason to funnel resources(money, business, arms, etc) into the west bank or gaza.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That'd mean the current residents would become citizens of Israel. I don't think the Jewish-Israeli population wants to deal with a similarly sized muslim population (which is growing rapidly).
Yes i understand that. That is why i suggested the neighboring Arab states(especially those) that are responsible for the "refugees" should absorb those Arab/Muslim populations, or Jurdan should take over the West Bank, and Egypt should take over Gaza. There is no need for a new independent Arab state. They have proved incapable of administering the populations and maintaining peace. It's time for:
1. Jordan to annex/absorb the west bank and be done with that size
2. Egypt to annex/absorb Gaza.
OR
3. The muslim countries which have a vested interest in this conflict to absorb the Palestinian populations and everything west of Jordan becomes part of Israel(sans the people).

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You're writing this as if the Palestinian population just waits for the borders to neighboring muslim countries to open. Forced resettlement and expropriation is not exactly feasible either -- I don't think you should use one crime against humanity to justify another.
Crime ? If israel opens it's borders it seizes to exist as a Jewish state. Yet the other side of the borders(Jordan and Egypt) remain closed as well. Have any of those neighboring Arab states even offered to absorb the refugees who are willing to take citizenship and relocate to those countries ? I know that Arabian Gulf countries make it easier for Palestinians to live and work there, and there is a lot of money flowing to the "refugees" from these countries, but i haven't heard of any of them accepting them as full citizens.

It's a "crime" to prolong this conflict for so long. I don't think its Israel's onus to make peace or relieve the "refugees" of their alleged sufferings, all Israel can proactively do, is withdraw from the West Bank, and we all saw how that worked out with Gaza, no government of the people would or should ever put their populations into that position. I think had their Arab kinsmen in Jordan and Egypt empathized with them, they would have assumed control of those areas and we would have had definite borders, an end to claims and who knows, maybe even peace by now.

What i don't understand is, when Egypt and Jordan instigated the war in 1947 to push the "Jews into the sea", at that point they didn't mind taking over the area and people in the mandate. But since 1967 they want nothing to do with that area/people ? WHY ?

On culture. Having lived in the muslim world for almost half my life, religion is almost predominantly the largest factor when defining culture. The clothes, foods, etc, do vary but religion is by far the biggest thing, IMHO. (Could you suggest another location/culture that has more in common with the Palestinians ? I've heard suggestions of South America, do you think South America has more in common with Palestinians?)

Cheers
     
Wiskedjak
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Jan 28, 2011, 11:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Then those same countries should have no reason to funnel resources(money, business, arms, etc) into the west bank or gaza.
Does that mean Israelis qualify for automatic US citizenship?
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 29, 2011, 08:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Does that mean Israelis qualify for automatic US citizenship?
Well, most of the illegal settlers in the West Bank probably are American. And should be deported back there.
     
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Jan 29, 2011, 10:24 AM
 
None of the Arab/Islamic countries like the Palestinians for a number of reasons-mostly a combination of "our particular flavor of Islam is much better than yours" and "your heritage is muddy and dirty, and you're all peasants anyway" sorts of things. The Palestinians are a thorn in everyone's sides, but they serve the purpose of giving the Arab countries something to poke Israel about.

Not that Israel is likely to be open to just plain annexing the rest of the region. First, even with "organized self government," the Palestinians don't seem to be able to get beyond petty, perhaps tribally-linked squabbles. (Yes, tribal, but so far back in time that they can't really remember who spit on who's great^8 grand father's donkey to start the squabble in the first place.) The label "Palestinian" simply refers to a geographic anchor, not a cohesive culture, and that, as I mentioned earlier, is a Major Problem for all involved, particularly the Palestinians.

But another reason is that Israel is itself having problems remaining cohesive. Fundamentalist Jewish groups are trying to turn Israel into an Orthodox (or even more strict) state, rather than "a Homeland for the Jews" in general. For example, a number of young American men who were raised Jewish have learned that they weren't "Jewish enough" to come to Israel and join their army...Religious segments of the government have made it nearly impossible for someone not heavily documented as very much Orthodox to be considered Jewish for official purposes... Who'd have thought that a land intended to provide a home for a persecuted people would effectively persecute individuals who consider themselves part of that persecuted people...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 29, 2011, 11:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
But another reason is that Israel is itself having problems remaining cohesive. Fundamentalist Jewish groups are trying to turn Israel into an Orthodox (or even more strict) state, rather than "a Homeland for the Jews" in general.
The most gag-worthy example of this issue is family law in Israel. Conservative and Reform Jews can't get married in their own country because the Orthodox have complete control of the system, and women have no recognized right of divorce. Read and weep: Under Israel's Divorce Laws, Men Get The Final Word
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 29, 2011, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Yemen, etc... should absorb the entire population of the west bank, by offering to grant citizenship to those who want to leave.
The Arab countries who instigated the "refugee" problem should resettle them, and the quartet should facilitate such a move. The area entire(current day israel, West bank and possibly Gaza) should become part of Israel.
I just love seeing ethnic cleansing openly advocated in the 21st century.

YouTube: God gave me this land. A racist prick gloats about the end of the settlement freeze.
( Last edited by lpkmckenna; Jan 29, 2011 at 12:32 PM. )
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jan 29, 2011, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I just love seeing ethnic cleansing openly advocated in the 21st century.
Then maybe we should stop talking about a "Jewish" state, a "Hindu" state, a "Arab" state, etc.

Also, 800,000 Jews were "ethnically cleansed" from Muslim lands, and as of 2 years ago, an Israeli Jew couldn't even get a visa to compete in a tennis tournament in an Arabian Gulf state. When they were fined and forced to grant a visa to the next Israeli Jew who was part of the tour, they didn't let the guy leave his hotel room, and the match wasn't even broadcast (and i think no spectators were allowed).

I'm not Arab/Muslim and im not Jewish. If the two cannot get along with equality and freedom guaranteed for the other, maybe keeping them apart for now is the only feasible solution? or maybe Yugoslavia should be reunited since some naive idealists got their panties in a knot due to the divisions along ethnic lines ?

Maybe you need to give up on your overly idealistic utopian idea of peace and deal with the reality on the ground ?

Or would you like to take a crack at suggesting a solution that would be legally sound and acceptable to all parties involved ?

Cheers
     
lpkmckenna
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Jan 29, 2011, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Also, 800,000 Jews were "ethnically cleansed" from Muslim lands...
Yes they were. Do you think a democratic Israel should follow the lead of Muslim tyrannies? I certainly don't.
I'm not Arab/Muslim and im not Jewish. If the two cannot get along with equality and freedom guaranteed for the other, maybe keeping them apart for now is the only feasible solution? or maybe Yugoslavia should be reunited since some naive idealists got their panties in a knot due to the divisions along ethnic lines ?
I agree completely. It's called the Two-State solution and it is the official policy of the Israeli government. Unfortunately, the Israeli gov't are two-faced liars.
Maybe you need to give up on your overly idealistic utopian idea of peace and deal with the reality on the ground ?
The facts on the ground are really the people on the ground, most of whom are Palestinians who have been there for centuries, and new settlers who showed up from New York a few years ago. The former have a right to be there and the latter do not.
Or would you like to take a crack at suggesting a solution that would be legally sound and acceptable to all parties involved ?
Stop the settlers. Buy out most of them with that $3 billion of American money now being used to buy guns from the US. (The Obama administration should be recommending that one.) Pretty simple really.

But of course you can't make anything acceptable to all the settlers, who are mostly rightwing zealots and true believers. But some of them will take the money and run, once they realize that the driving out of Palestinians isn't ever gonna happen and their former neighbours are returning to the States with generous buy-outs.
     
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Jan 30, 2011, 02:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Yes they were. Do you think a democratic Israel should follow the lead of Muslim tyrannies? I certainly don't.
I agree completely. It's called the Two-State solution and it is the official policy of the Israeli government. Unfortunately, the Israeli gov't are two-faced liars.
Then the lines should have been drawn and treaties signed in 1947, or in 1967, or in the early 90s, or even today ? Why did that not happen again ?

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
The facts on the ground are really the people on the ground, most of whom are Palestinians who have been there for centuries, and new settlers who showed up from New York a few years ago. The former have a right to be there and the latter do not.

Stop the settlers. Buy out most of them with that $3 billion of American money now being used to buy guns from the US. (The Obama administration should be recommending that one.) Pretty simple really.

But of course you can't make anything acceptable to all the settlers, who are mostly rightwing zealots and true believers. But some of them will take the money and run, once they realize that the driving out of Palestinians isn't ever gonna happen and their former neighbours are returning to the States with generous buy-outs.
I wouldnt be surprised if that $3bn is aid is provided with the condition that it is spent on U.S. defense industries.

Why spend the $3bn to buy out settlers ? why isnt all the "aid" going to the Palestinians being used to buy them out instead ?

Here's my compromise to my suggestion from above. Draw the lines exactly where they stand today (or any day since 1947 for that matter). I know which side was willing to sign on the dotted line and which side wasn't. Peace is the goal, right ? So why avoid signing the paper ?

Of course at least for now, the current area should be demilitarized(initially for a fixed period), and considering it's been over 60 years there should be no "refugees" who are granted "right of return". Zero. No state in it's right mind should be expected to grant citizenship to a people who have for 60+ years strived for it's destruction.

Cheers
     
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Jan 30, 2011, 07:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Then those same countries should have no reason to funnel resources(money, business, arms, etc) into the west bank or gaza.
I beg to differ: there is a logic behind supporting someone in certain ways but not others. Anti-migration policies is certainly one objective, for instance. Of course fighting a proxy war is among the motivation as well.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Yes i understand that. That is why i suggested the neighboring Arab states(especially those) that are responsible for the "refugees" should absorb those Arab/Muslim populations, or Jurdan should take over the West Bank, and Egypt should take over Gaza.
The fact that you write `refugees' in quotation marks is a clear indication to me that you know full well this is a misnomer.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
There is no need for a new independent Arab state.
Why not?
That's not a question that can be answered one way or another based on the (in)conveniences of other countries, that's something that comes out of the will of the population living in an area which wants to have a country of its own.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
They have proved incapable of administering the populations and maintaining peace.
It certainly didn't help that they were very much dependent on Israel and that state structures were regularly bombed to pieces. Sort of like shooting someone in the leg and then complaining the he can't walk faster. Please don't misunderstand this as me failing to see the motivation of the Israeli governments to do what they did. But you can't expect the impossible either.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Crime ?
Yes, I think forced relocation of hundreds of thousands of people is a crime (more properly: a crime against humanity). All it will do is worsen the conflict.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I don't think its Israel's onus to make peace or relieve the "refugees" of their alleged sufferings, all Israel can proactively do, is withdraw from the West Bank, and we all saw how that worked out with Gaza, no government of the people would or should ever put their populations into that position.
The Israeli government has a responsibility towards its own people to make peace, because otherwise Israel will eventually collapse. The Israeli colleagues of mine who had to serve in the army didn't come home with nice stories from their time in the IDF. Some were thrown at with rocks from one side and spat and cursed at from the other.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
(Could you suggest another location/culture that has more in common with the Palestinians ? I've heard suggestions of South America, do you think South America has more in common with Palestinians?)
This line of argumentation goes nowhere, because your initial idea is plain non-sense. It's akin to suggesting to split up Switzerland and have the German part join a united Germany-Austria (which includes the Italian part of South Tirol), the French part goes back to France (which of course also now includes the French part of Belgium) and the Italian part goes back to Italy. After all, they share the same cultural roots and even speak the same language, don't they? And this plan is certainly more reasonable than for Switzerland to become a part of Portugal, no?

If you want to know why this is a really bad idea, just go to a German-speaking, a French-speaking and an Italian-speaking Swiss and suggest this idea to them. They'll tell you in no uncertain terms that they're Swiss and not German, French or Italian!
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OreoCookie
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Jan 30, 2011, 07:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
The most gag-worthy example of this issue is family law in Israel. Conservative and Reform Jews can't get married in their own country because the Orthodox have complete control of the system, and women have no recognized right of divorce. Read and weep: Under Israel's Divorce Laws, Men Get The Final Word
Absolutely. Most of the Jews I've met in my line of work are reformist Jews and they complain very much that they can't do certain things the way they want it to. E. g. they told me they are essentially forced to get married in Cyprus or some other country.

I think Israel's move towards orthodox Judaism is going to make it that much harder to solve this conflict peacefully.
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Jan 30, 2011, 10:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
.. should absorb the entire population of the west bank, by offering to grant citizenship to those who want to leave.
Just to clarify, cause some of you seem to be assuming that i meant that all the "refugees" should be forcefully resettled.
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Jan 30, 2011 at 10:59 AM. )
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 30, 2011, 06:22 PM
 
Isn't forced migration option 3 in the list (West Bank should be annexed `sans the people')?
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Jan 30, 2011, 08:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Isn't forced migration option 3 in the list (West Bank should be annexed `sans the people')?
I meant those who choose to leave(no claims by them to return, etc). Forced migration is not implied. At worst the "refugees" who remained would not be granted Israeli citizenship. IMHO

Do you know if the neighboring Arab states offer citizenship to the "refugees"? Personally I am not aware of any.

Cheers
     
 
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