[Ghoser777]

I don't think the debate was should the government help anyone (as vmarks remarks indicate) but whether or not a public or private institution can use some type of race preference anywhere.

- Can a school play cast an African American as Martin Luther King Jr., or should the school give "serious" considerations to other caucasian actors?
- Must a business hire a certain number of minorities simply to "be safe," or should they hire the best people in the area, whether it be minority or majority?
- etc.

I just wish I understand the hatred of a couple hundred years ago that has continued to flow till today. Really, what's the point? It just doesn't jive with my personality at all, to completely oppress another people, treat them like dirt, spit in their faces, etc. Now we're got a terrible situation and I don't know of any workable solution. Hopefully time (and the death of gangsta rap, but that's my personal belief) will really heal all wounds and slowly diversify power, wealth, status, etc in the U.S. and around the world.

Here's to my pipe dream.

Matt Fahrenbacher

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Webscreamer:
I ALWAYS check the *other* box when filling out applications/forms.... Or I don't even mark it. They don't need to know....

Either do you ...brotha

Me too. I check the "other" box and write in "Meat Popsicle".

Technically, I'm Hispanic, but it's really no one's business and doesn't make a shred of difference. *I* am who *I've* made myself to be. It's only *MY* fault if I fail.

Anyone who accepts a handout at someone else's expense (AA) is weak and a lesser person, who is unable to get by on their own steam.

[iWrite]

To answer your questions I attended:

University of Hawaii at Manoa (1 year) and tuition was about $20K that year because I was not a resident.

Then University of Washington (3 years) first year was about $24K and after that I paid $17K per year. (Finished my undergraduate degree.)

Then University of Iowa (1 year) at a cost of (I'm looking at it right now) $19 (and some change.)

Then Yale for 1 year: $28K (Finished my graduate degree.)

I paid my entire way through, took out some student loans (which I paid off -- finally -- about 2 months ago), and WORKED.

Secondly, about high school, the government dictated that it was mandatory, not me, which is why I mentioned that. I'm not going to argue against the law (Krusty.)

Thirdly,

However, I believe that people who desperately need the money (and are more than qualified) to go to college should be allowed to go. Whether this be with the help of scholarships or government grants.

Yes, people should go -- after taking out LOANS THAT ARE PAID BACK and not some kind of a "welfare college fund" for people who expect others to pay their way. I think that loans should be easier to get, however.

I also think that people getting college tuition paid for by the government should have mandatory work assigned to them through their college.

I am a woman and now I make a good deal of money, but I worked my *ss off to get where I am professionally -- including maintaining a 4.0 GPA all the way through college AND working. I didn't care what I did for money -- I did it. I worked as a painter (painting houses), I worked in a strip bar as a bartender, I worked as a model for a while (that helped pay the bills) between Los Angeles and Japan (which is why I was in Hawaii -- it was halfway in between and I could commute back and forth), I worked serving coffee at Starbucks, I worked in the hospital cafeteria -- and I could name countless other jobs. ANYTHING to make money (except prostitution, of course --->) and I wasn't too proud. I even took classes for people: Went to lectures for them in order to take notes for them at $25 a week. I also took out student loans and yes, there were some scholarships that I applied for and received because I kept my GPA above 3.5.

But I never expected a handout -- ever.

I think there ARE some circumstances that merit "assistance" from the government. Physically and mentally challenged people, for instance.

But anyone is of sound mind and body and just wants a handout because they aren't working? Tough. Get a job and WORK.

That's my philosophy in life, period. People become successful through EARNING success, not having it handed to them.

[sniffer]

and the death of gangsta rap

Interesting debat for sure. But I just wonder, isn't music more a reflection of the society? Do you know any other examples besides gangsta rap that ever have been more than a reflection historical speaking? Sorry for the off topic question.

Perhaps everything would have been easier if schoolarships mainly was aimed at the poor first, then minorities second?

We have a little different situation around here but there is parts of this discussion that also would fit here. Especially in my part of my country.

[iWrite]

I think that student loans should be directed at the most needy FIRST.

Race, skin color, pimples, big feet, etc., should NOT be considered.

The money given should be a work study loan (tuition is paid in exchange for working for the university) or a plain low interest government-backed (Sallie Mae) loan that is repaid.

No handouts.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by hyteckit:
1 Parents must be a Veteran

This one was always my peeve. There were private veteran's scholarships out there that could be used by veterans to pay for their children's educations, but not to pay for the education of the veteran himself. The same goes for federal employee's scholarships. I'm a federal employee who is also in law school. If I had kids in law school, I could get scholarships for them. But I can't get them for myself.

Basically, these kinds of targetted scholarships are so narrowly tailored that they are useless if you don't fit in the category intended -- and in many cases it seems that the category intended is strictly ma and pa Middleclass paying for their 2.2 kids to go to collge. It is painfully apparent that the intended beneficiary is NOT the independent students paying their own way.

The worst example are Clinton's education tax credits. They are only available if you pay enough income tax to get the credit. If you work your way through college (as I did) you might not earn enough to get it. I got hit with that dilemma for a couple of years as an undergrad. Now I'm getting hit on the other side. Last year I made too much (because of a summer associateship at a law firm) and consequently lost the entire $2000 credit. After I graduate I'll also lose the tuition interest deduction because of phase out. I'll be $100,000 in debt, but I won't the kind of "middle class" person putting kids through school whose favor Clinton was trying to curry. It seems as a professional student who pays his own way rather than being paid for by parents you go directly from being too poor to qualify to being too rich regardless of the amount of crushing debt involved.

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by rezonate:
I'm sorry that you couldn't see how I used the word, 'We'. Obviously it doesn't imply every single person living today, but rather society, Government, etc. It was our dominant White society that reinforced racism in the past, our very same Idealogical Government that exists today; if that's still too abstract fpor you, then it is the vey same people who stood up for segregation are the ones that are still very much alive, even in positions of power, even Goverrment. It was people who are alive today that backed segregation, racism, some of those are our fathers who passed that down to their children.

Stiil doesn't mean I should suffer for their idiocy. The masses voted for them. Seems some people agree with them even if I don't

Originally posted by rezonate:
So what are you implying? That we pretend that the actions of our forefathers has nothing to do with society as a whole? Do you really think that works, that if we pretend that a whole race of people who were marginalsied for so long hasn't had an effect on the people living today? that their condition is exactly equal to ours? Do you think our society will truly move forward like that? That we are not doomed to repeat the erroprs of our fathers?

I am about half Hispanic and half Irish. Sorry, but my "father's" didn't oppress anyone. We will move on once we forgive each other and drop the whole thing.

Originally posted by rezonate:
It's funny to hear Christians talk of absolving themselves of blame, and yet have faith in the original sin nonsense in which sin is carried downwards to this very day. Strange how we;d rather accept the sin of a mythological 'Adam', but point blank refuse to acceot the very real sin of our society, fathers before.

Seems like some Christians are a very picky bunch.

Are you blaming the black Christians too? And since when did Christianity come into the argument? You seem to be the picky one. I'm glad you got a laugh out of this. Seems no one else is.

And I think you can pin the blame of how minorities were treated squarely on the sinful nature of man. I seems there can be no other reason.

And the only way to be forgiven of a sin is to ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. Or don't you understand Christianity?

[Millennium]

...and so the hate continues. And it will continue, until all people of all races finally realize how utterly meaningless race really is.

This scholarship is inherently wrong. So are all scholarships using race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, and so forth as criteria. Only merit and need are fair bases for scholarships, and there are times I'm not so sure about those either.

[iWrite]

Millenium said
This scholarship is inherently wrong. So are all scholarships using race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, and so forth as criteria. Only merit and need are fair bases for scholarships, and there are times I'm not so sure about those either.

Thank YOU, Millenium.

We're in agreement about this. Not always in agreement about everything, I'm sure, but this is one thing we seem to agree about.

I stand by my argument that people need to make an EFFORT to hoist themselves up -- not expect others to.

I value my education a lot more than if I had simply had it handed to me by signing on some application line. Yes, SOME people DO deserve a break.

But, they're not the mobile, healthy, and physically and mentally fit folks that simply want to go to classes and not get a job to help PAY for their educations.



(It's probably a good thing I'm not a financial aid administrator.)

[Joshua]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Thank YOU, Millenium.

We're in agreement about this. Not always in agreement about everything, I'm sure, but this is one thing we seem to agree about.

I stand by my argument that people need to make an EFFORT to hoist themselves up -- not expect others to.

I value my education a lot more than if I had simply had it handed to me by signing on some application line. Yes, SOME people DO deserve a break.

But, they're not the mobile, healthy, and physically and mentally fit folks that simply want to go to classes and not get a job to help PAY for their educations.



(It's probably a good thing I'm not a financial aid administrator.)

You're really oversimplifying. I never met a single student in undergrad who had their full tuition paid by grants -- not even close. Most students who receive grants also have scholarships, substantial loans, and they're paying a good portion by working one or more jobs.

If your stance is that a college degree isn't worth anything unless it's paid for by hard work, then your anger should be directed at the smart kids with full rides and the kids with wealthy parents.

[iWrite]

Joshua said
If your stance is that a college degree isn't worth anything unless it's paid for by hard work, then your anger should be directed at the smart kids with full rides and the kids with wealthy parents.

First of all, I didn't say that "a college degree isn't worth anything unless it's paid for by hard work..." YOU did. I said it was valued more.

Secondly, "smart kids with full rides" aren't the issue either, are they? They are SMART, whatever "smart" means, and they are earning their scholarships through hard work and keeping grades up.

Thirdly, "kids with wealthy parents" don't bother me either: Their way is paid.

What I'm saying is that the system should be tweaked so that people who NEED money to get through college should be LOANED that money based on NEED AND GRADES (merit) and no other criteria, period. Not race. Not religion. Not sex. Nothing.

Fourthly -- I'm not angry. Far from it, actually.

I'm through with college, paid for it, it's over and done with, and my student loans are paid (with interest), and there is nothing more to it.

I just think that people should not expect a handout because of race.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by iWrite:
First of all, I didn't say that "a college degree isn't worth anything unless it's paid for by hard work..." YOU did. I said it was valued more.

Secondly, "smart kids with full rides" aren't the issue either, are they? They are SMART, whatever "smart" means, and they are earning their scholarships through hard work and keeping grades up.

Thirdly, "kids with wealthy parents" don't bother me either: Their way is paid.

What I'm saying is that the system should be tweaked so that people who NEED money to get through college should be LOANED that money based on NEED AND GRADES (merit) and no other criteria, period. Not race. Not religion. Not sex. Nothing.

Fourthly -- I'm not angry. Far from it, actually.

I'm through with college, paid for it, it's over and done with, and my student loans are paid (with interest), and there is nothing more to it.

I just think that people should not expect a handout because of race.

There are two separate issues here: whether there should be need-based grants, and whether aid should be conditioned on race. Personally, I see need-based grants as valuable for the reasons already articulated in this thread (benefit to society as a whole, etc.), but I do agree that basing grants on race is perpetuating institutional racism.

[dcolton]

Hey...I am black. Give me some affirmative action. Everyone thinks that affirmative action gives blacks or whomever the upper hand. BULLSH*!! Give me a scholarship, give me a great job because I am black...woohoo! too bad it just doesn;t work that way!

I understand and appreciate the goal of this group, but will someone please tell me where to go to get special treatment, free money and a better job. I will use my blackness to take advantage of any program...and it is not because I deserve it - I just want a break for once.

Do people really think that affirmative action has a negative affect on whites...or is it just an excuse to hide under achievement? All I know is that *if* affirmative action is that big of an issue, why did I have to pay for college and why do I have a crappy job? Please, tell me where to apply or take advantage of this affirmative action myth.

Nevermind...I don't need affirmative action. Just let me be successful without claiming reverse racism. Makes me think...now that the playing field is becoming a little more even and unbiased...under achievers have an excuse to "cry wolf" because *their* merit does not match that of their colored counterparts.

[hyteckit]

I'm all for need-based grants for colleges such as CalGrant. Without it most people from low income families would not be able to attend college even if they work two jobs. I think it is great that the government is subsidizing students to attend college. In the long run, it'll benefit the state and country as a whole because of the contributions the college grads will make.

Anyway, I don't like Affirmative Action based on race. If we have affirmative action for race, we should have affirmative action for weight, height, attractiveness, and dozens of other criterias. After all, it's been shown statistically that better looking people and taller people have it easier in life than ugly and short people.

[iWrite]

Nevermind...I don't need affirmative action. Just let me be successful without claiming reverse racism. Makes me think...now that the playing field is becoming a little more even and unbiased...under achievers have an excuse to "cry wolf" because *their* merit does not match that of their colored counterparts.

[dcolton]

I went back and actually read a few of the posts...utterly ridiculous comments are being made and it bothers me. First of all, to the asian people (and white) who claim there are no scholarships available to them...BS BS BS BS. There are so many scholarships available that aren't race based it is ridiculous. Don't blame me or blacks because you are not good enough to earn/ win a scholarship. Quit whining and do something for yourself!

Isn't that what non-blacks say to blacks when they claim discrimination? The issue isn't affirmative action persay, it is the fact that certain people aren't willing to accept the fact that we live in a multi-cultural nation - and "whites" (God, I hate even discussing this) are no longer the only benefactors of social welfare (the term welfare applies to more than a ghetto stricken leech who lives off of food stamps and government cheese).

It is fear...iWrite claims that he will soon be a minority in America because he is white. I guess my question is: (and I write this with all do respect because I do not want you to think or infer that I think you are a racist or anything like that)

Do you fear being a minority in 40 years. If so, why? Are you afraid that maybe your "race" will suffer as other minorities suffered in the past. What happens when you are the minority...will you fight to get some affirmative action for your family - children, grandchildren. That's quite a change....

Nonetheless, your statement is a bit flawed and suspect. In 40 years, whites may not outnumber blacks, hispanics, asians, and any other race combined...but as one group...you will still be a majority. I guess my advice is to quit worrying about your majority and start worrying about how we can celebrate the diversity this great nation was built upon.

[iWrite]

For the RECORD, I am also considered a minority: Jewish female.

Secondly, when I made the comments about whites being a "minority" I said that because then, by the current standards based on AA and race, then the "white" people will qualify for the scholarships via AA because THEY will be the "minority" at that point.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by hyteckit:
Well, I'm not White, nor am I Black. I'm Asian.

Guess what? I had the hardest time getting any scholarship so I know what you White guys are talking about. I feel bad for those poor White Kids.

ditto. japanese (half) here, and the only scholarship i qualified for (and got, incidentally) was from my home state of washington. and that scholarship was race-blind, as it should be, and only took into account my test scores.

[TubaMuffins]

it seems everyone is missing the point, the purpose of the 'white only" scholarship is to show that minority only scholarships and affirmative action are unfair to EVERYBODY. As soon as someone mentions white power, white appreciation month, or white whatever, people think that it is racist. I'm just playing devil's advocate here but I honestly do believe that affirmative action should be banned, even for private scholarships. If you are deerving to go to school and receive a scholarship based on your merits and potential for growth you should receive that opportunity, if you are onkly able to get in to school because you are a minority, what good does it do you or anyone? In the Land of Opportunity, there is always a way to advance yourself, hell, you might even have to work for it.

[hyteckit]

How is it BS when I speak from experience? I went to my college counselor during the beginning of my senior year and we basically went through 50 scholarships in the filing cabinet and only found one I can apply for. How can I be "good enough to earn/ win a scholarship" when I can't even apply to them?

[dcolton]

It's BS because you didnt take the time to look for scholarships! Are you telling me that your search for free money (the thing that you are against) only manifested fifty scolarships and only one you qualified for? ********! It seems to me as if you were a bit too lazy to search for other scholarship opportunities. I am willing to bet that Asian only scholarships rival black only scholarships. Since you have proven to be a little less than ambitious, i googled it for you http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...n+scholarships

Do you think that free money is just going to fall in your lap. Do you think you deserve free money because you are not black? What the hell. Before we start to jump on a bandwagon claiming that blacks have all of the advantages, maybe we should look at ourselves first. My point is very simple...the ideal that AA discriminates against whites or non-blacks is a ridiculous statment. Me thinks that some people will attack anything to justify or excuse failure. Am I saying that AA is right? Absolutely not. What I am saying is that AA is an easy excuse for failure. I just wonder what will happen when AA comes to an end and the same people still don't achieve what they feel is rightfully theirs.


Once again, please point me in the right direction so I can reap the benefits of this affirmative action thing. There has to be some company that needs to meet their quota for blacks and minorities. Just give me an office and a paycheck...I'll work if need be, but I volunteer to be the token black guy who can't achieve anything because I am black - It sure would be great if it were that easy!

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by dcolton:
I went back and actually read a few of the posts...utterly ridiculous comments are being made and it bothers me. First of all, to the asian people (and white) who claim there are no scholarships available to them...BS BS BS BS. There are so many scholarships available that aren't race based it is ridiculous. Don't blame me or blacks because you are not good enough to earn/ win a scholarship. Quit whining and do something for yourself!

ok, time to check some facts here, from the usnews scholarship search: http://12.47.197.196/usnews/

35 matches when i filled it out as myself (music and photography being my outside interests, entering grad school in washington state as a washington resident). of these 35, i actually am eligible for 5: two music composition contests, one writing competition, a piano competition, a photojournalism competition.

of the other 30, there are ones for females, two for licensed radio operators, one for those entering the auto industry, another for unspecified "minority students", one for teachers, one for children of oklahoma city bomb victims, one for ph.d. candidates writing about violence, one for 4th yr undergrads, one for hispanics, one for polish people, one for greeks, one for single parents, seven for various american indian tribes, one for singers, one for people going into radio news, another for the same with electronic journalism news as the focus, one for italians, one for american indian artists, one for chinese nationalists, one for russian immigrants, another just for grad students attending out of state schools, yet another for ph.d. candidates writing about religion or ethics, and finally one for foreign students studying here or us citizens studying abroad.

so where are these non-race based scholarships? empty talk of "celebrating diversity" is great, but the reality is that most scholarships that i've found are race based, or are for a very particular field. and the lack of parity between races' representation in these scholarship fields is galling. the situation was no different when i was a high school student entering college -- i simply was not eligible for any non-contest scholarships because of my non-preferred race.

[hyteckit]

dcolton,

Guess what? When I was in my Senior year, there was nothing called the World Wide Web. No Netscape. No web browser. All I have to rely on was my college counselor. Where you should suggest I go look for them so called scholarship that is available for everyone? Roam the streets? Check your local colleges and libraries?

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by dcolton:
It's BS because you didnt take the time to look for scholarships! Are you telling me that your search for free money (the thing that you are against) only manifested fifty scolarships and only one you qualified for? ********! It seems to me as if you were a bit too lazy to search for other scholarship opportunities. I am willing to bet that Asian only scholarships rival black only scholarships. Since you have proven to be a little less than ambitious, i googled it for you http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&i...n+scholarships

let's examine the first real link in your google results (the first two are about the asian journalists association or somesuch), the boise state financial assistance pages.

in particular let us compare:

http://admissions.boisestate.edu/Culture/asianSchlr.htm

and

http://admissions.boisestate.edu/Culture/AfriSchlr.htm

for asians i see 6 entries of varying specificity. as a japanese person, i would be eligible for exactly one.

for blacks i see 31 entries, again with the caveat that many are specific. where's the parity? it's not a lack of searching that's the issue here. once again:

[Millennium]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Do you fear being a minority in 40 years. If so, why? Are you afraid that maybe your "race" will suffer as other minorities suffered in the past.

Yes, because it is already starting. It is still low-key, and subtle, and as long as it gets no worse it is nothing to worry about. But it will get worse. It's taken me a long time to realize that incrementalism is no fallacy when applied to humanity, but it's true: as a group, people never know when to quit. They never have, and they probably never will.

What happens when you are the minority...will you fight to get some affirmative action for your family - children, grandchildren. That's quite a change...

No, I will not fight for affirmative action. It will be just as wrong for me as it was for anyone else. All it does is perpetuate the hatred and breed even more resentment. It makes short-term numbers look good -which the politicians like- without actually solving the real, underlying problems.

But worse, many of my race would fight for these things. I am under no illusion that a majority of any race sees what the real problem is. And so the cycle will continue, and one day the pendulum will swing again, and nothing will really be solved even though people will think it has been.

[dcolton]

Ok, lets check some facts and lets dump the empty celebrating diversity crap...I was just trying to be nice.

1st...I cannot bellieve you people are so lazy that you do a cursory search for scholarships and immediately cry because you don't qualify. The truth is, most scholarshps are based on some sort of stipulation...some of those stipulations happen to deal with race. Nonetheless, most of the stipulations deal with majors, life experience, and interests. Scholarships are offered...not as free money, but as a catalyst to promote an industry or a field. Scholarships from a radio organization are their to promote excellence in radio by providing scholarships to people who plan to enter into that field. The same is with any other field of study. As for race, yes, their are black scholarships, chinese scholarships, jewish scholarships, etc. Is it wrong for an organization, whose primary concern is to promote equality or growth to offer scholarships to the people they claim to represent? Or should Jewish organizations offer their scholarships to the decendents of Hitler and members of the KKK?

The last I remembered, we live in America - and companies and organizations can give to whomever they please, whether we agree with it or not. Just because you can't find/ earn/ win a scholarship doesn;t mean the whole system is suspect or corrupt.

2nd...you go to one source and immediately dismiss your opportunity for a scholarship? Maybe that is the issue. Do you think that because you are white, you should automatically be notified of all scholarships availble to you? Do you think that you don't have to research whats available? You are just lazy...and for some inane reason, you think you deserve a scholarship because - why?

So lets check the facts...you want a hand out but you aren't willing to look for it. It is easier to blame your failure on minorities because America has this goal to make sure that white people can never succeed. The govenrment is secretly trying to make sure that you fail so black people can take over the government and put people like you into slavery.

[dcolton]

Hytechkit,

The web wasn't around (prevalent) when I graduated HS either. But libraries were open, the colleges offered information and there were quite a few books and services on the market. Like I said...it is easier for you to cry racism than to get off your butt and look. By the way, what is the percentage of Japanese-American's living in the US?

Millenium,

I liked your post. To the point, no punches pulled and honest. My question is this...do you think the key to the situation is politics? I mean...what if the republican party increased it's black membership? Would that make a difference? Do you think that democrats are seperating this country with programs like AA that will probably cause a long term crippling of race relations? (thats my opinion in the form of a question)

[spiky_dog]

hello, didn't you learn that ad hominem attacks aren't a valid form of argument? accusing everyone (and everyone in this thread except for you seems to disagree with you) who doesn't share your opinion of being lazy is not proving anything. back in high school i used the web. i also read all the material that my hs guidance counselor provided. don't assume.

from http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2000/dp1/2kh00.pdf, there are approx. 800,000 japanese per se. however, there are close to 7 million unsorted folks like me under the category of "two or more races".

So lets check the facts...you want a hand out but you aren't willing to look for it. It is easier to blame your failure on minorities because America has this goal to make sure that white people can never succeed. The govenrment is secretly trying to make sure that you fail so black people can take over the government and put people like you into slavery.

i'm not blaming my "failure" on minorities. hint: despite being of an unfavored race i went to a fine ivy league college, and will go to a fine (non-ivy) med school in the fall. but to do so i had to fight an uphill battle, and that is what is not fair.

[hyteckit]

Whites, Blacks, and Hispanics make up 95% of the US population.

http://eire.census.gov/popest/archiv...intfile3-1.txt

[cal4ever]

Originally posted by dcolton:
I went back and actually read a few of the posts...utterly ridiculous comments are being made and it bothers me. First of all, to the asian people (and white) who claim there are no scholarships available to them...BS BS BS BS. There are so many scholarships available that aren't race based it is ridiculous. Don't blame me or blacks because you are not good enough to earn/ win a scholarship. Quit whining and do something for yourself!

Hey, a 4.2 GPA and pretty high SAT score (I don't remember what I got it was a few years ago), took all AP classes my senior year of high school, and on top of that a pretty compelling personal statement still couldnt' get me scholarship. So, I guess I should have worked harder, eh?

And, I'm not blaming blacks!!! Far from it! I'm not blaming anyone's race. For you to think that I am saying that it's OTHER people's fault that I couldn't get a scholarship is ridiculous. I pick my battles, but I am definitely NOT going to go out my way to convince you that I am not blaming blacks. If you think that way...pity.

[dcolton]

I asked about the Japanese-American population because obviously there will be fewer scholarships offered. Don't blame AA, blame your people for not offering the scholarships.

As for the ad hominem attacks...I am sorry, but if you are going to tell me that you can't find more than 5 scholarships you qualify for...that is pure laziness - nothing more, nothing less. Sorry if I hurt your feeling. I would post the many links to scholarships that are not race related...but I won't - if you are too lazy to look for yourself, why should I do it for you?

[cal4ever]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Thank YOU, Millenium.

I value my education a lot more than if I had simply had it handed to me by signing on some application line. Yes, SOME people DO deserve a break.

But, they're not the mobile, healthy, and physically and mentally fit folks that simply want to go to classes and not get a job to help PAY for their educations.

I don't think anyone is arguing against what you said above. However, your previous posts make it sound like you are completely against any form of financial help. People who are able should not get help from the government. But there are plenty of students who would not be able to go to college without grants (i.e. plenty of other students). With the 25% fee increase in the UC system, many students and families are forced to look for money anywhere they can find it. Many of these students are already maxed on out federal loans. Some, unfortunately, don't have good enough credit to get private loans. And, I guess they can borrow from friends, like what you did, but I doubt many can find friends willing to let them borrow over thousdands of dollars!

Everyone has a different situation. Many students are not as fortunate as you. Some students can't work due to family obligations (i.e. taking care of sick parents, family, etc...) For you to think that everyone can do what you can is ridiculous. Everyone has their own situtation. We should be thankful that we're in the country that allows children from the "masses" to go to school. What kind of society would we have if only the rich can go to college? Btw, you, iWrite, are an exception. Most people would not be able to pay $20k+ tuition by themselves.

[hyteckit]

Originally posted by dcolton:
I asked about the Japanese-American population because obviously there will be fewer scholarships offered. Don't blame AA, blame your people for not offering the scholarships.

As for the ad hominem attacks...I am sorry, but if you are going to tell me that you can't find more than 5 scholarships you qualify for...that is pure laziness - nothing more, nothing less. Sorry if I hurt your feeling. I would post the many links to scholarships that are not race related...but I won't - if you are too lazy to look for yourself, why should I do it for you?

Did a search on the usnews.com link you gave me. I can only apply to about 3. 1 of the 3 is CalGrant which isn't really a scholarship. The search results suck. I specified I was chinese male and I got a whole bunch of hispanic, black, indian, and female listing that I obviously can't apply for.

Blame my people? Hah... that's funny sh*t.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by spiky_dog:
]i'm not blaming my "failure" on minorities. hint: despite being of an unfavored race i went to a fine ivy league college, and will go to a fine (non-ivy) med school in the fall. but to do so i had to fight an uphill battle, and that is what is not fair.

So blacks don't have an uphill battle? While I was working two jobs and studying, I watched as everyone else had fun. I really need to find out more about this AA thing. I want to live in your America...I really do.

[hyteckit]

Originally posted by dcolton:
So blacks don't have an uphill battle? While I was working two jobs and studying, I watched as everyone else had fun. I really need to find out more about this AA thing. I want to live in your America...I really do.

I think the point is, all races face an uphill battle if you are poor.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by dcolton:
So blacks don't have an uphill battle? While I was working two jobs and studying, I watched as everyone else had fun. I really need to find out more about this AA thing. I want to live in your America...I really do.

in the realm of college and grad school admissions, it is true, blacks don't have an uphill battle. any social inequity should be resolved well before the college admissions process, as stated by other posters in this thread. furthermore such measures should be applied by economic position imo, not race. help out those who need it, not those who happen to be of a particular race. anyway, once college time rolls around, the scores and essays should speak for themselves without "adjustment factors" and quotas skewing the results and tipping the playing field.

[itai195]

Originally posted by cal4ever:
Hey, a 4.2 GPA and pretty high SAT score (I don't remember what I got it was a few years ago), took all AP classes my senior year of high school, and on top of that a pretty compelling personal statement still couldnt' get me scholarship. So, I guess I should have worked harder, eh?

Maybe. And this is one of the problems with a merit-based system. There are a lot of other people like you.

A lot of people here are arguing that inequalities between different socioeconomic classes and/or races should be addressed before college admissions. Sure, I think there should be a lot of effort applied in that area. Any notion that these differences could ever be completely done away with is a pipe dream, though. Another relevant concept is that there are still a lot more poor white people in the US than poor minorities. What it all adds up to is that the issue of disadvantaged socioeconomic classes and access to education is an entirely different issue. In the US, we like to mix that up with race a lot, I still haven't really figured out why.

What is interesting is that a lot of people focus purely on the socioeconomic issue, but ignore the facts that (a) good old fashioned racism is still practiced throughout this country and (b) regardless of that, we're still suffering from the effects of hundreds of years of institutionalized racism. AA is not meant to be a panacea, it does not mandate any quotas, it doesn't say you have to hire or admit a less qualified individual because of race or gender. This is all just spin popularized by those politicans who have chosen to make a career out of opposing AA.

When I applied for undergraduate admission I remember being upset about AA as well. A minority friend of mine was admitted to a school that I wasn't, despite lower gpa and SAT scores. But here's yet another problem with a meritocracy -- in the grand scheme of things how much difference do 0.3 grade points and 100 points on the SAT really make? Considering there are thousands of other students with the same credentials I had, I'd say they don't make much of a difference at all.

[dcolton]

Spiky,

You must have really been screwed to think blacks don't have an uphill battle. In your world, Duke accepted me and I didn;'t have to settle for American University. In your world, I am not $50,000+ in debt because of student loans. After all, I am the revered black guy who has no uphill battle.

I just don't get it...you are against AA but you are quick to pull out that you are 1/2 Japanese? Why is that important if AA is so evil.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Yes, because it is already starting. It is still low-key, and subtle, and as long as it gets no worse it is nothing to worry about. But it will get worse. It's taken me a long time to realize that incrementalism is no fallacy when applied to humanity, but it's true: as a group, people never know when to quit. They never have, and they probably never will.

No, I will not fight for affirmative action. It will be just as wrong for me as it was for anyone else. All it does is perpetuate the hatred and breed even more resentment. It makes short-term numbers look good -which the politicians like- without actually solving the real, underlying problems.

But worse, many of my race would fight for these things. I am under no illusion that a majority of any race sees what the real problem is. And so the cycle will continue, and one day the pendulum will swing again, and nothing will really be solved even though people will think it has been.

Don't worry dude, this `spic here (me), will always fight for truly equal rights and the belief that there is ONLY ONE race, the human one.



What dcolton, want a medal? I owed over $100K in student loans, and paid them off too. Though I could get handouts for being hispanic (whatever the hell that means) I chose to do it all on my own. F### the system and f### the people who say they can't do it on their own. I came from a poor family. My dad worked 3 jobs to put food on the table and I started working at 12 to help out.

Bottom line is, if you work hard, you succeed. It's that simple and it means that much more to you when you do.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Spiky,

You must have really been screwed to think blacks don't have an uphill battle. In your world, Duke accepted me and I didn;'t have to settle for American University. In your world, I am not $50,000+ in debt because of student loans. After all, I am the revered black guy who has no uphill battle.

I just don't get it...you are against AA but you are quick to pull out that you are 1/2 Japanese? Why is that important if AA is so evil.

b/c being half white and half japanese puts me at a disadvantage wrt AA. both whites and japanese are overrepresented. being an overrepresented minority hurts my chances in admissions, in other words.

and that duke didn't accept you doesn't show that you face an uphill battle. duke's hard to get into any way you cut it.

[itai195]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Bottom line is, if you work hard, you succeed. It's that simple and it means that much more to you when you do.

That's a wonderfully Puritan belief. Too bad it isn't really true.

[CharlesS]

Bah. When slavery was going on in the US, my ancestors were peasants in Central Europe. I do seem to recall from history classes that the poor weren't treated so well over there in those times. Neither I nor my ancestors have had anything to do with slavery. So I agree with many who have posted here about the use of the pronoun "we".

Who's the one who used to have as their signature a picture of one of those forms with the "Other" bubble filled in and "Human" written on the blank? Was it AlbertWu? That was a good picture.

[iWrite]

Wow -- a LOT of responses to read through and mull over.

I still like everything Millenium has to say and then I liked this by spiky_dog:

...so where are these non-race based scholarships? empty talk of "celebrating diversity" is great, but the reality is that most scholarships that i've found are race based...

Yes, that IS the truth.

There is all kinds of blather in this country about "racial and ethnic diversity and equality" but it is all empty because the truth is that this country is still racist -- even the government supports racism through AA.

The fact remains that even having a "parody" of a scholarship based on being "white" is still wrong. Yes, he's trying to point something out, but why didn't he also offer one for hispanics, asians, blacks, etc.? He chose WHITES.

I'll tell you why: Because it's as Millenium said, remember?

Yes, because [being a white minority] is already starting. It is still low-key, and subtle, and as long as it gets no worse it is nothing to worry about. But it will get worse. It's taken me a long time to realize that incrementalism is no fallacy when applied to humanity, but it's true: as a group, people never know when to quit. They never have, and they probably never will.

The way I see it, there is a LOT of hypocrisy to go around. If white people want to offer a scholarship to white people, then fine. But, *somehow* that is deemed as wrong. But, if blacks offer a scholarship to blacks, that is okay. And so on. On a broad scale there is the NAACP -- and that's okay.

But, getting back to the point, there should be NO race issues where NEED is involved. Help should be based on NEED, it should be based on MERIT (grades), and it should be based on NEED-BASED EASY-TO-OBTAIN GOVERNMENT *LOANS*. NO HANDOUTS BASED ON RACE.

[itai195]

Actually there are a lot of merit based scholarships. I'm surprised nobody has ever heard of the National Merit Scholarship Program, you know, that program that almost every high school graduate in the country is pretty much forced to participate in? Oh, nevermind that some people (actually a lot) get help preparing for the test from their schools. There's also the Byrd Scholarship. At the University of California there are a variety of merit based scholarships, eg the Regents Scholarship and the Alumni Scholarship. These are just off the top of my head! There are a ton of others!

There are also tons of scholarships not based on merit or race. How about, oh I don't know, athletic scholarships? Or corporate scholarships?

I can't believe people are trying to make serious arguments out of positions of total ignorance.

Anyway, it seems both scholarships and AA are being contested in this thread, and they're two entirely different issues.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by itai195:
Actually there are a lot of merit based scholarships. I'm surprised nobody has ever heard of the National Merit Scholarship Program, you know, that program that almost every high school graduate in the country is pretty much forced to participate in? Oh, nevermind that some people (actually a lot) get help preparing for the test from their schools. There's also the Byrd Scholarship. At the University of California there are a variety of merit based scholarships, eg the Regents Scholarship and the Alumni Scholarship. These are just off the top of my head! There are a ton of others!

good points. and back in my day i took advantage of both: was a national merit finalist (but to my knowledge didn't get money from them? perhaps i did.), and the byrd scholarship the one that i mentioned in a post above when i wrote:

[...] the only scholarship i qualified for (and got, incidentally) was from my home state of washington. and that scholarship was race-blind, as it should be, and only took into account my test scores. [...]

since you brought up athletic scholarships, i put forth that they be abolished as well. along with all "legacy" considerations. (another horse to beat, yes!)

[Ghoser777]

I think merit is unfair as well. I mean, if you're born with a lower I.Q., what are you going to do?! What recourse do you have (except perhaps a wealthy family)? I say, hat full of names drawn randomly. I seem to do pretty well, if only because my name is longer so my piece of paper would stand out. Hmm... damn advantage. Everyone should have the same length name too! Damn length of name advantage... at least you can change that.

:end sarcasm:

Matt Fahrenbacher

[itai195]

For some National Merit Scholarships, you get money directly from the school. That's how it worked for me.

Anyway, only having merit based scholarships doesn't make much sense as long as admission isn't based on pure merit, and there are a lot of problems with such a system.

As far as privately funded scholarships go, it the benefactor's right to do whatever they want with the money. This is simply a fact of life in a diverse society, and it manifests itself in other areas besides education. For example, if you have a lot of family members who have died of cancer, are you more likely to donate money to cancer research or to heart disease research? You can relate to cancer victims and you're looking out for your own kind, so you're more likely to donate to the cancer group. Such favoritism in medical research donations actually takes place. Blacks will donate more to sickle cell research, Jews to tay-sachs, etc. Education falls into the same category.

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by itai195:
That's a wonderfully Puritan belief. Too bad it isn't really true.

Actually it is *mostly* true. You probably won't become Donald Trump, but if you do work hard there's a great likelihood that your standard of living, wealth, status, etc will improve. Now there are tons of exceptions of people who've worked hard their entire life and haven't improved that much. Poverty and low status can become cyclic and generational - that's the depressing part. It's one thing if people fall into poverty, its another if people in poverty are unable to "pick themselves up by the bootstraps" and get out of it. Part of the problem here is they are unable (or not wise enough because of lacking education) to provide for their children the way they want to. Education *should* be a great equalizer in this regard... to bad it's not. Hence, why I think we have AA... too bad it's for college students and people in the workforce instead of developing children.

Matt Fahrenbacher

[itai195]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Actually it is *mostly* true.

And then you went on to disprove what you just wrote. But anyway...

AA's purpose is not to counter socioeconomic disadvantages, its purpose is to bring about equal opportunity for victims of institutionalized racism. There are a lot of poor white people in this country, AA is not a solution for them.

There are a lot of instances in this country where we automatically associate socioeconomic disadvantages with racial disadvantages, and that's nothing but an act of stereotyping. A lot of people make this association in their minds just by second nature. Don't forget that there are millions more poor white folks in this country than poor black folks.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by itai195:
There are a lot of instances in this country where we automatically associate socioeconomic disadvantages with racial disadvantages, and that's nothing but an act of stereotyping. A lot of people make this association in their minds just by second nature. Don't forget that there are millions more poor white folks in this country than poor black folks.

(i think you're right about the national merit thing. i also think it was a freshman year-only deal now that i rack the ol' memory)

as for poverty vs. race, read http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/.../cb03-153.html , down under "Race and Hispanic Origin":

Among people who reported the single race of black in 2002, 24.1
percent were in poverty [...]

The official measure shows poverty rates did not change for
non-Hispanic single race whites (8.0 percent), Asians (ranging from
10.0 percent to 10.3 percent, depending on the four race definitions,
not statistically different from each other) or Hispanics, who may be
of any race (21.8 percent).

although i don't doubt your assertion about the absolute numbers, the % seems to be where people get their perception from.