[ghporter]

When they were broadcast, an original BSG episode could have 30-60 seconds of preview. Sometimes the extra time was just "gee whiz" effects shots and sometimes it was "tension building" stuff. You're right that the original wasn't as character driven as the current series, but in 1978 the market was for gee whiz and that sort of thing, not intense plots driven by intense characters. Remember, the point of the original BSG was to cash in on the original Star Wars, not to "make art." Still, I went to the trouble to see the pilot in a theater in Toronto because I couldn't wait for it to be on TV in the States...and I thought it was really cool, too.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by goMac 

And Kara is the daughter of a piano player...

HmmmMMMMMMmmmmm.

Which leads me to say hmmm about this

 

In the second half of Battlestar Galactica season four, airing later this year or in 2009, Starbuck becomes "inexplicably drawn" to a "handsome, charismatic and slick piano player" over a couple of episodes. The two become so linked that she tells him stuff nobody else knows.

So maybe maybe a Daniel was Kara's mom's baby daddy.

[andi*pandi]

Hmm, this last ep had so much info I couldn't parse it all. Almost too expositiony but necessary.

I'm totally on board with

 

the starbuck being daniel's daughter.

I think they're telegraphing that pretty clearly.

But I do wonder if Baltar is someone else important's child. If the final 5 helped the centurions create man-like children, maybe the final five also helped humanity make cylon-like children...

[besson3c]

I don't think that Daniel is Balter, it's too big of a plot hole. Ellen would have known that Daniel was still alive, as we wasn't killed on New Caprica. I don't think Balter's selfishness really lends himself to being a "sensitive" type either.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

So was there a trailer for next week as I didn't see one. I hope next week isn't a re-run.

[besson3c]

analogue: the BSG website says that Deadlock airs next Friday: http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/

[besson3c]

Have any of you guys watched the special versions of the full episodes provided on the scifi.com website with director commentary? I'm tempted to watch No Exit with the commentary, but I'm wondering how much the directors would give away this way?

[ort888]

I think we learned more in this one episode then we did all last season.

[Don Pickett]

Good episode, even if it was mainly exposition. We finally know the outline of the entire story, and the reason for the 3,000 year gap between the holocaust on earth and the one on the Colonies:

 

Subluminal travel. That would also imply that the colonies are somewhere around 3,000 light years from earth.

Re: Cavil. It's a nice use of dramatic irony, in that. . .

 

the first skinjob is the most human of all the cylons in his jealousy and pettiness.

Also a very nice exploration of the idea of God: is the God in which the cylons believe the echo of a real belief, or is it something built into the by the final five?

[Don Pickett]

Revised timeline, with info from the last episode:

 

1) At some point in the distant past humans on Kobol first create the centurions and then the skinjobs. Among these skinjobs are those the series refers to as the final five. The centurions are used as slave labor;
2) At some point in the distant past a group of skinjobs including those we know as the final five leave Kobol for Earth. The travel is relativistic yet subluminal and thus takes a long time. On their journey they stop one at least one planet and build a temple;
3) At some point in the distant past the skinjobs who travelled to earth begin to procreate biologically and lose their ability to directly transfer memories from one body to another;
4) At some point in the distant past the final five successfully build a technological version of the biological memory transfer abilities they used to have;
4) Several thousand years ago, on earth, the final five realize the centurions are going to revolt and nuke the planet. They are unable to stop it. The final five are resurrected in a ship orbiting the planet and they take off towards the colonies at relativistic but subluminal speeds in order to stop this from happening in the colonies. The speeds are fast enough so that time dilation is significant;
4) Upon arriving at the colonies they strike a deal with the centurions, building them skinjobs in return for not nuking humans. At this point the centurions have succeeded in creating hybrids, but not skinjobs;
5) Cavil, the first skinjob made by the final five, is thirsting for revenge, kills the final five, suppresses their memories, and scatters their resurrected bodies throughout the colonies;
6) The centurions and the seven skinjobs attack the colonies. Some humans escape;
7) At some point an eighth skinjob model, named Daniel, is effectively destroyed by the Cavils;
8) The final five live their lives, unaware of what they are, each in turn tormented by Cavil;
9) And here we are.

Things I'm missing:

1) If we assume the various religious stories and legends of the 12 colonies are based on some distant historical fact, where do the stories of angry gods and the 13 tribe heading to earth fit into this?

Did I miss anything else?

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't think that Daniel is Balter, it's too big of a plot hole. Ellen would have known that Daniel was still alive, as we wasn't killed on New Caprica. I don't think Balter's selfishness really lends himself to being a "sensitive" type either.

I think Baltar is the perfect candidate for Daniel, scientists are artists. (At least we lead the life of artists )

I think this was another great episode.

BTW, no jokes until now that PC guy effed up the surgery?

[besson3c]

So, if Balter and Starbuck slept together that one time that means that Starbuck slept with a copy of her Dad!

Do the cylons age?

[besson3c]

Never mind, Cylons must age cause there were flashbacks to the XO and Adama as younger men...

[goMac]

Don Picket: One problem with your timeline is that Earth was all Cylon, not just partially Cylon.

I think the episode made clear that:

 

The first Cylons were built on Kobol. They went to Earth, built more Cylons, had a revolt, and left to inform their old human masters of the problem.

Another question: Does their old orbital platform or ship still exist?

[besson3c]

Don Pickett:

 

0) Earth was settled by Final Five -type Cylons - refugees of the first, original human/Cylon war several thousand years ago.
1) The Final Five type-Cylons' ancestors had the ability to resurrect, but lost it as they began to procreate biologically on Earth. Addendum: The 13th tribe are Final Five-type Cylons and not actually humans...?
2.2) 3,000 years ago humans in the 12 colonies (not on Earth) built the Centurians, which eventually led to the Final Five Cylons (not sure if the Cylons or humans developed the Final Five)
3) The Final Five recreated resurrection like what their cylon ancestors had before they figured out how to procreate biologically, refer back to point 0
4) The final five go back to the 12 colonies to try to convince humans to live in peace with cylons, because (since "all this has happened before, etc.") they know humans will build cylons again. But they're too late - by the time they reach the 12 colonies, humans HAVE built cylons again, and are already at war with them.
4.2) Yup yup.
5) Yup again
6) Yup - forty years after the final five apparently brokered that peace accord (their part in which the humans apparently knew nothing about)
7) Yup
8) Yup
9) Where are we?? Lost in Space??

So what I'm curious to know is, who nuked Earth 3,000 years ago? Cylons themselves? Humans? Cylon/cylon civil war?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Don Picket: One problem with your timeline is that Earth was all Cylon, not just partially Cylon.

I think the episode made clear that:

 

The first Cylons were built on Kobol. They went to Earth, built more Cylons, had a revolt, and left to inform their old human masters of the problem.

Another question: Does their old orbital platform or ship still exist?

 

Ah. So was earth entirely skinjob/final five at the time of the first revolt? I am under the impression that humans made the final on earth, and that there were only five of them. From what I remember of the flashbacks to earth 3,000 years ago, there was a lot of people around who weren't final five, so they must be human, yeah?

And I think the Galactica and Co. would've found the orbiting cylon ship.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Don Pickett:

 

0) Earth was settled by Final Five -type Cylons - refugees of the first, original human/Cylon war several thousand years ago.
1) The Final Five type-Cylons' ancestors had the ability to resurrect, but lost it as they began to procreate biologically on Earth. Addendum: The 13th tribe are Final Five-type Cylons and not actually humans...?
2.2) 3,000 years ago humans in the 12 colonies (not on Earth) built the Centurians, which eventually led to the Final Five Cylons (not sure if the Cylons or humans developed the Final Five)
3) The Final Five recreated resurrection like what their cylon ancestors had before they figured out how to procreate biologically, refer back to point 0
4) The final five go back to the 12 colonies to try to convince humans to live in peace with cylons, because (since "all this has happened before, etc.") they know humans will build cylons again. But they're too late - by the time they reach the 12 colonies, humans HAVE built cylons again, and are already at war with them.
4.2) Yup yup.
5) Yup again
6) Yup - forty years after the final five apparently brokered that peace accord (their part in which the humans apparently knew nothing about)
7) Yup
8) Yup
9) Where are we?? Lost in Space??

So what I'm curious to know is, who nuked Earth 3,000 years ago? Cylons themselves? Humans? Cylon/cylon civil war?

 

From what I understand, humans built the final five. Remember when Tigh and the others are talking while Anders is in surgery. He says explicitly that the final five were built by humans. And, the Centurions nuked earth 3,000 years ago.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

 

Ah. So was earth entirely skinjob/final five at the time of the first revolt? I am under the impression that humans made the final on earth, and that there were only five of them. From what I remember of the flashbacks to earth 3,000 years ago, there was a lot of people around who weren't final five, so they must be human, yeah?

And I think the Galactica and Co. would've found the orbiting cylon ship.

 

No, everyone on Earth was Cylon. When they found Earth they found lots of bodies in multiple locations, every one of them was Cylon. The final five were researchers into resurrection technology, which explains why they survived. Because the Earth Cylons could have children, they had a wide gene pool and thus there was no "model" concept.

If the Cylons left Earth, it means their ship would have left too. John hints that their lab is still around, which I would think might be on their ship.

[ort888]

Why are we using spoiler boxes?

[Cold Warrior]

Yes. There's really no need for them.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Why are we using spoiler boxes?

Because maybe not everyone has seen the latest episode.

[goMac]

If you think about it, Kara being a Cylon child would complete the circle....

Helo and Sharron's baby = Human/Cylon Hybrid
Tigh and Six's baby = Earth Cylon/Colony Cylon Hybrid
Daniel and Kara's mom's baby (Kara) = Earth Cylon/Human hybrid

Thus mixing everyone with everyone.

(NM, I realized Daniel would be a Cylon Cylon : facepalm : )

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Why are we using spoiler boxes?

Last week no spoiler boxes for upcoming episodes, this week spoiler boxes on already aired episodes.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Why are we using spoiler boxes?

I used it because I posted a spoiler about an upcoming episode. Not sure why everyone else is.

[lavar78]

I totally called the existence of a 13th Cylon.

[Don Pickett]

I put the revised timeline on my website.

[eowyn]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

I put the revised timeline on my website.

1) The Centurions were created by the humans in the Colonies, not on Kobol or on Earth. Anders said: "We needed to find the other tribes and warn them. We knew they would continue to create artificial life, we needed to tell them: treat them well and keep them close. But by the time we got to the Colonies, they were already at war with the Centurions, it happened again."

He also said later that, "The Centurions were already trying to make flesh bodies. They *had* created the hybrids, but nothing that lived on its own, so we made them a deal: You stop the war and we'll help you. We developed the eight humanoid models and we gave them resurrection."

And while Tory said, "But the humans on Kobol made us. Go back far enough, it's always them," I'm not sure that means that humans actually made skinjobs - or just that the humans made metal Cylons, who then made humanoid Cylons themselves. I'm leaning toward humanoids being a Cylon invention, personally....

2) I think the 13th tribe, the one that settled on Earth, was Cylon only. I can't think of anything in the show that indicated that anything other than Cylons lived there.

3) So, do you think that maybe the Earth Cylons stopped at the algae planet and visited the shrine (and left that "map" back to Earth) on their way back to Kobol, so they could use that as a starting place for finding the 12 Colonies - just as the humans from the Colonies go to Kobol as a starting place for finding Earth? Nice symmetry there if so.... And everything goes back to Kobol. Maybe the show ends there somehow...
.
.
.
7) Ehh...again, I don't think anything other than Cylons lived on Earth. But we don't know what *did* cause the nuclear holocaust there. Another interesting thing, though - Anders said: "Back on Earth, the warning signs that we got, it looked different to each one of us. I saw a woman, Tory you saw a man. Funny, no one else could see them."

So, they had "head people"? Who?? Probably Ron Moore and David Eick...so which one of them was the woman Anders saw?

9) Yup, the Final Five definitely helped end the "first" Cylon War, see point 1 above ("'we made them a deal").

11) "Thousands of years?" Do we really have any idea how long the Cylons were enslaved by humans? Long enough anyway, cuz Cavil was certainly thirsty for that revenge. The jerk.

[eowyn]

BTW, hi everybody. I'm kinda new here...and I'm definitely sometimes too wordy, but only online, not in real life. (besson3c might disagree with me about that, though....)

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by eowyn 

1) The Centurions were created by the humans in the Colonies, not on Kobol or on Earth. Anders said: "We needed to find the other tribes and warn them. We knew they would continue to create artificial life, we needed to tell them: treat them well and keep them close. But by the time we got to the Colonies, they were already at war with the Centurions, it happened again."

He also said later that, "The Centurions were already trying to make flesh bodies. They *had* created the hybrids, but nothing that lived on its own, so we made them a deal: You stop the war and we'll help you. We developed the eight humanoid models and we gave them resurrection."

And while Tory said, "But the humans on Kobol made us. Go back far enough, it's always them," I'm not sure that means that humans actually made skinjobs - or just that the humans made metal Cylons, who then made humanoid Cylons themselves. I'm leaning toward humanoids being a Cylon invention, personally....

I don't see anything in there which says the humans on Kobol didn't make the centurions first, and it seems a logical first step. I'll keep that part of the timeline as it is, unless something more concrete comes forward. And, if the centurions had made the skinjobs I don't think they would've needed the help of the Final Five to make more skinjobs. Seems to be both centurions and skinjobs were made on Kobol a long time ago.

2) I think the 13th tribe, the one that settled on Earth, was Cylon only. I can't think of anything in the show that indicated that anything other than Cylons lived there.

I will keep the maybe in there until something more affirmative comes along from the show.

3) So, do you think that maybe the Earth Cylons stopped at the algae planet and visited the shrine (and left that "map" back to Earth) on their way back to Kobol, so they could use that as a starting place for finding the 12 Colonies - just as the humans from the Colonies go to Kobol as a starting place for finding Earth? Nice symmetry there if so.... And everything goes back to Kobol. Maybe the show ends there somehow...

Dunno. It seems the 13th tribe stopped at the algae planet on their way to Earth. I don't know why, though. And all we know about the communication from Earth to Kobol is what information was carried: the constellation names and view of them from Earth.

11) "Thousands of years?" Do we really have any idea how long the Cylons were enslaved by humans? Long enough anyway, cuz Cavil was certainly thirsty for that revenge. The jerk.

It seems to be several thousand years. The holocaust on earth was dated at 2,000 or 3,000 years ago by the Galactica crew and the clyons (don't remember which date). Assuming the Final Five left soon after it happened, it took them those several thousand years to travel to the 12 Colonies.

[Don Pickett]

Timeline updated. Read the battlestar wiki and found I was wrong about the creation date of the centurions, among other things.

As an aside, if the 13th Tribe left 4,000 years ago, and the scrolls of Pythia were written 1,600 years before the humans left Kobol, that means the 13th Tribe travelled to Earth, colonized it, and word of that journey made it back to Kobol all in the span of 400 years. According to math done at the wiki, the 12 Colonies are about 10,250 light years from Earth, which means the 13th Tribe travelled at about 25x the speed of light to make the journey in 400 years, or about 50 times the speed of light to get there and back in 400 years. Inneresting when, according to Anders, jump drive hadn't been invented when the final five made the journey from the nuked Earth to the 12 Colonies.

[besson3c]

Don Pickett: in the first episode of Season 4.5 (Sometimes a Great Notion) they said that they 13th tribe was Cylon...

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Don Pickett: in the first episode of Season 4.5 (Sometimes a Great Notion) they said that they 13th tribe was Cylon...

I know. I'm just keeping it in there on the off chance some humans went on the journey, which brings me to a question: according to Anders in the last episode, the resurrection technology had to be created because the cylons on Earth began to reproduce sexually and forgot, or lost, the ability to pass on memories.

If that's true, what's the difference between a human and one of the final five cylons who reproduces sexually? Is there one?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

If that's true, what's the difference between a human and one of the final five cylons who reproduces sexually? Is there one?

The final five can resurrect and sometimes appear to have super-human strength.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

As an aside, if the 13th Tribe left 4,000 years ago, and the scrolls of Pythia were written 1,600 years before the humans left Kobol, that means the 13th Tribe travelled to Earth, colonized it, and word of that journey made it back to Kobol all in the span of 400 years. According to math done at the wiki, the 12 Colonies are about 10,250 light years from Earth, which means the 13th Tribe travelled at about 25x the speed of light to make the journey in 400 years, or about 50 times the speed of light to get there and back in 400 years. Inneresting when, according to Anders, jump drive hadn't been invented when the final five made the journey from the nuked Earth to the 12 Colonies.

Anders only confirmed that FTL travel wasn't available yet, that doesn't rule out FTL communication. Also, remember that Ellen told Cavil that the 5 didn't create the temple of the 5, or at least didn't design the signal with the supernova, and so god must have done it. If that's true (she's not lying or ignorant of the temple's design), the same could be true of all the mythology of the show (temple of athena, scrolls of pythia, etc). I think it's clear that the 5 didn't have anything to do with Starbuck's travel to Earth and resurrection, so we know there is at least one unrevealed character with the ability and inclination to meddle in the affairs of the fleet.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

I wonder if Baltar is the son of Cavel.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Anders only confirmed that FTL travel wasn't available yet, that doesn't rule out FTL communication. Also, remember that Ellen told Cavil that the 5 didn't create the temple of the 5, or at least didn't design the signal with the supernova, and so god must have done it. If that's true (she's not lying or ignorant of the temple's design), the same could be true of all the mythology of the show (temple of athena, scrolls of pythia, etc). I think it's clear that the 5 didn't have anything to do with Starbuck's travel to Earth and resurrection, so we know there is at least one unrevealed character with the ability and inclination to meddle in the affairs of the fleet.

In the BG universe there is neither FLT travel or FTL communication: the ships use jump/warp drive tech, so they never go more quickly than the speed of light. And while the five didn't build the temple, that doesn't mean the skinjobs journeying from Kobol to Earth didn't: I am assuming the group known as the 13th Tribe included many more than just those five.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

In the BG universe there is neither FLT travel or FTL communication: the ships use jump/warp drive tech, so they never go more quickly than the speed of light.

Then why do they say "spin up the FTL" when they're getting ready to make a jump?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Then why do they say "spin up the FTL" when they're getting ready to make a jump?

According to the writers, the system works not by actually making the ships travel faster than the speed of light, but by warping space so that two adjacent points, many light years apart, are temporarily brought close to each other to create a temporary short route between the two. So, in essence, the drives are FTL drives in that they allow the ships to travel many light years in an instant, but the ships themselves never get near the speed of light.

The classic example is that of a worm on the surface of an apple. If the worm wants to get to the other side of the apple it has two choices. It can either crawl along the surface of the apple, or it can burrow straight through. The FTL drives allow the ships to burrow through without violating the speed of light.

[ThinkInsane]

Which is still faster than light travel, even if the ship doesn't reach those speeds.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

Which is still faster than light travel, even if the ship doesn't reach those speeds.

It's an important distinction to make, though. Pretty much means no FTL transfer of information absent physical travel.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

The classic example is that of a worm on the surface of an apple. If the worm wants to get to the other side of the apple it has two choices. It can either crawl along the surface of the apple, or it can burrow straight through. The FTL drives allow the ships to burrow through without violating the speed of light.

Surely you can imagine that a precursor to FTL travel is FTL communication, regardless of the mechanism of the travel. For your worm, it very likely could send information (such as hormones or vibrations) through the apple directly before it managed to crawl through itself.

Another point I read elsewhere, is that humanity may not have originated on Kobol (even though it seems to currently believe that it did). If the humans of Kobol came from Earth before it all, they could have brought the information (location of earth) with them, then they would have this information for using when their descendants (biological or otherwise) later embarked back towards earth, leaving signposts along the way.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Another point I read elsewhere, is that humanity may not have originated on Kobol (even though it seems to currently believe that it did). If the humans of Kobol came from Earth before it all, they could have brought the information (location of earth) with them, then they would have this information for using when their descendants (biological or otherwise) later embarked back towards earth, leaving signposts along the way.

I read some of the stuff about origin theories on the battlestar wiki, and it's all more arcane than I care to be. For the time being I will leave the origin of humans on Kobol. Obviously, if something comes up in the show which answers that question I will change things.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

I read some of the stuff about origin theories on the battlestar wiki, and it's all more arcane than I care to be. For the time being I will leave the origin of humans on Kobol. Obviously, if something comes up in the show which answers that question I will change things.

I don't care where they come from, I'm just saying your explanation that they had to travel faster than light to make it all work has several large holes.

"As an aside, if the 13th Tribe left 4,000 years ago, and the scrolls of Pythia were written 1,600 years before the humans left Kobol, that means the 13th Tribe travelled to Earth, colonized it, and word of that journey made it back to Kobol all in the span of 400 years....which means the 13th Tribe travelled at about 25x the speed of light"

This is based on several assumptions that we really have no basis for making.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I don't care where they come from, I'm just saying your explanation that they had to travel faster than light to make it all work has several large holes.

"As an aside, if the 13th Tribe left 4,000 years ago, and the scrolls of Pythia were written 1,600 years before the humans left Kobol, that means the 13th Tribe travelled to Earth, colonized it, and word of that journey made it back to Kobol all in the span of 400 years....which means the 13th Tribe travelled at about 25x the speed of light"

This is based on several assumptions that we really have no basis for making.

It doesn't have that many large holes. And, dude, absent any official statement from the writers speculation is all we have. We don't even know any of the distances involved. We can assume that, as the fleet can travel superluminally, and as it took them over a year to find Kobol, that the distances are at least measured in light years, and quite probably in tens, hundreds or even thousands of light years.

On the battlestar wiki there is one clue in the navigation section as to the distances involved: the use of the Lagoon Nebula as recognizable from Earth puts the 12 Colonies at about 10,250 light years from Earth.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I never disputed the distances you claimed, only the conclusions you draw from them. The large holes are that the final 5 had to travel back to Kobol and the algae planet to create the temples (they don't, they only have to communicate the location of earth there), and that they had to do it on the same journey described by Anders (they don't, they could have migrated back and forth any number of times, those temples being built on a previous trip). But since you brought up the writers, Moore has stated that he doesn't want any part of any evolution debate, and that the humans of BSG evolved on Earth. All this has happened before, yadda yadda yadda, so for all we know, people have migrated from Earth to Kobol to Earth to Kobol, to the colonies, to Kobol and back to Earth, maybe dozens of times, at various speeds.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I never disputed the distances you claimed, only the conclusions you draw from them. The large holes are that the final 5 had to travel back to Kobol and the algae planet to create the temples (they don't, they only have to communicate the location of earth there), and that they had to do it on the same journey described by Anders (they don't, they could have migrated back and forth any number of times, those temples being built on a previous trip).

Then I wasn't clear: I think the temple was built on the 13th Tribe's original migration.

But since you brought up the writers, Moore has stated that he doesn't want any part of any evolution debate, and that the humans of BSG evolved on Earth. All this has happened before, yadda yadda yadda, so for all we know, people have migrated from Earth to Kobol to Earth to Kobol, to the colonies, to Kobol and back to Earth, maybe dozens of times, at various speeds.

I missed that. Then it will be interesting to see how the history unfolds over the remaining episodes.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Then I wasn't clear: I think the temple was built on the 13th Tribe's original migration.

Didn't Ellen explicitly say that they did not build the temple?

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Didn't Ellen explicitly say that they did not build the temple?

Did she? If so, I missed it.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Didn't Ellen explicitly say that they did not build the temple?

I think she explicitly said that they had nothing to do with the supernova. That certainly raises questions about who built the temple, since until now we had assumed its purpose was to augment/predict/explain the supernova. I'll have to watch it again...

[lexapro]

I would like to know if Ellen knew who and what she was before the died and rezzed or other "realized" it after she rezzed.