[Sayf-Allah]

What do you people think? What's the best way of getting rid of this pest?

Who should we listen to when it comes to finding solutions on this?

If you were put in charge what would you do?


If you aren't going to stay on topic please ignore this thread. It's pretty clear what it is about and it should be easy to try to stay within those limits.

[dcmacdaddy]

Concerning those who commit specific terrorist acts: Catch them; try them; and, if convincing evidence is provided, execute them.

Concerning the reasons why certain extremist ideologies are more amenable to terrorism: Go after the sources of this ideology, the promoters of the fundamentalist interpretation of Islamic thought. Of course, to do this in the context of Middle East Islamic fundamentalism means coming into conflict with the rulers of Saudi Arabia and no nation is going to do that if they are heavily dependent upon Saudi Arabia for oil.

As for specific actions the US could do to minimize anti-US sentiment in the Muslim world, I would like to see the following happen.

• Remove all US military troops from Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Middle East (particularly Qatar and Bahrain) where we have substantial installations.
• Effect the complete pull-out of US troops from Iraq and turn over the gargantuan embassy we built there to the Iraqi government as the campus for a new university. (We could do with a much smaller embassy there.)
• Finish what we started in Afghanistan by working to eradicate the Taliban and al Qaeda there and spending massive amount of money to aid i the rebuilding of the country.
• Stop selling US military hardware to ALL the countries in the Middle East. This includes Israel. Too much anti-US sentiment in the Muslim world comes from our support of Israel and I would rather see us lose one country as an ally than continue to have American defense contractors enriched through the sale of military hardware to Israel.
• Minimize contact with ALL nations of the Middle East. Keep open existing embassies but don't open any new ones. Use trading rights with the US as a stick with ME nations to get them to change their socio-political ideologies. Encourage more openness but do not demand it; Leave the choice up to the countries.
• Work with educational groups and women's-rights charities to promote greater equality between the sexes within the less-developed parts of the Muslim world. True changes in attitude toward the US will come about only when women have greater equality with men and access to education and personal/social freedom on a par with men.
• Finally, stop assuming that the US way of doing things is the right way or the best way to do things. Help countries to discover the forms of political organization that work best for them not those that work best for US business interests. (Too often US foreign policy decisions seems to be based on benefits to US business interests and not to increasing better relations between/among other nations and the United States.)

[Sayf-Allah]

I agree with most you say there. To add to your list and in the order I'd like to see it.

• Create a League of Democracies. Have clear rules for what is necessary to join this League. And have it democratic (unlike the UNSC).
• Have the LoD choose several NGO's that it will support.
• Set up clear steps in the way a nation should develop to take part in the LoD. Development should not start with a laissez faire economic system but by starting to build up the basic society.
• Those steps should include minimum requirements for vaccinations, minimum level of education (basically X% of a nation should be able to read), and minimum basic laws.
• If the nation in question cannot afford to take those steps the LoD should help put together the finances for it. But every school, every book, every vaccination ampule should be marked with 1) the logo of the LoD and 2) the nation sponsoring that particular thing.
• Make a % the minimum amount of the GNP the applicant nation should put into education and health.
• Increase the number of exchange students coming from Muslim countries. Expose them to the positives and negatives of our society.
• Take up a no elections - no money policy. Meaning you don't get to play a part in the Marshall Plan II (see next bullet) unless you have elected people in elections considered OK by LoD accepted NGO's.
• Increase the economical development of the Muslim world. I want to see a Marshall Plan for the Muslim world. The Marshall Plan made it possible for Europe to grow from the darkness of fascism and dictatorships. A similar method should be used but only for countries that have shown good and proper moves towards democracy. -> Creates a stable middle class.
• The LoD should while all this is done force a temporary solution to the Israel/Palestine question.
• Reject the idea that other civilisations are inherently hostile to ideas like democracy, equality and human rights. These are universal concepts supported by all human beings.
• Slowly decrease involvement and investments in nations not willing to take these steps.
• Accept that the final version of their democracies and economic system might not be exactly like we want it. That's part of living in a democratic system. The difference of opinions.

On top of that I recommend everyone tries to get a hold of the book Reconciliation: Islam, Democracy, and the West by B. Bhutto. And when you've read it I hope you try to get as many as possible to read it.

[ghporter]

I think that the reason there are people who subscribe to Islam that commit such acts is that they are led by clerics who teach that violence is not only sanctioned but glorified in their religion. From what I've read of the Koran, and from discussions with a number of people who converted to Islam in adulthood, this is not the case.

But Islam lacks any sort of coherence, even of the Catholic/Protestant dichotomy in Christianity, and because of this, it seems that anyone who can quote The Prophet can set up his own sect and redefine the tenets of Islam to suit his own ideas. I have yet to hear about some "radical" cleric who actually teaches literacy, science, and tolerance, traits of Islam from 700-800 years ago. They all seem to want a new Kaliphate, and probably want to be in charge of the whole world when they set up (their own, of course) new Kaliphate.

Want to end terrorist actions attributed to Islamic groups? I think we all need to support literacy, caring for the basic needs of EVERYONE, and tolerance. And I think we need to listen what Lennon and McCartney talked about 40 years ago: "when you want money for people with minds that hate/all I can tell you is brother you have to wait." Get people to stop contributing money to these extremists, and they can't buy weapons, can't set up training camps, and thus can't do much more than set up a box on the street corner and shout at people.

[red rocket]

Ignorance, illiteracy and lack of education clearly have nothing to do with it. Significant numbers of Islamic ‘terrorists’ have been educated in Western ‘democracies’ and hold degrees in subjects such as medicine, engineering and computer science.

America and Britain are routinely going around the world bombing and shooting millions of innocent people, Israel is running a giant concentration camp for the people whose land it has stolen, western politicians systematically support corrupt dictatorships over popular democratic movements just because those movements do not embrace western imperialist values, anything and everything associated with Islam or Arabs is being consistently demonised and vilified in the media, and you seriously expect people to just shut up and put up with this hypocritical bullshit indefinitely?

The colonial era is over, it’s high time for the west to recognise that reality and start conducting itself accordingly.

[Shaddim]

It's good to see that "the other side" has it's own propaganda machine in high gear.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

Ignorance, illiteracy and lack of education clearly have nothing to do with it. Significant numbers of Islamic ‘terrorists’ have been educated in Western ‘democracies’ and hold degrees in subjects such as medicine, engineering and computer science.

America and Britain are routinely going around the world bombing and shooting millions of innocent people, Israel is running a giant concentration camp for the people whose land it has stolen, western politicians systematically support corrupt dictatorships over popular democratic movements just because those movements do not embrace western imperialist values, anything and everything associated with Islam or Arabs is being consistently demonized and vilified in the media, and you seriously expect people to just shut up and put up with this hypocritical bullshit indefinitely?

The colonial era is over, it’s high time for the west to recognize that reality and start conducting itself accordingly.

This does not explain why there are terrorist attacks in places where there is no western presence. The Philippines is an excellent example.

As to Israel "running a giant concentration camp for the people whose land it has stolen" Prior to the 1948 war for independence, the non Jewish residents of the Palestine Mandate were told to leave, and after the "Jews were pushed into the sea", could return and take the land. (land that was purchased over the previous 70 years by the Jews at inflated prices) Instead of being welcomed by Jordan, Syria, and Egypt they were put into camps by their brother Muslims. In Jordan, Arafat tried to overthrow King Hussein , resulting in "Black September"
Sayf-Allah asked in another thread about the "Muslim invasion" of Lebanon. The PLO was expelled from Jordon to Lebanon, where they promptly set up and started what became the Lebanese Civil war.

[PaperNotes]

http://thepeoplescube.com/red/viewtopic.php?t=980

Last Thursday a flying saucer landed in my backyard. A friendly, if slightly disoriented alien pilot told me he needed a drink. I had just what he wanted, since this was Thanksgiving and all. I was glad to have company so I wouldn't have to eat my famous fat-free vegetarian imitation turkey all alone.

His name was Ollie and he came to Earth looking for an honest, self-reliant, optimistic, and technically inclined nation that could benefit from a contact with his more advanced civilization.
"Whoa, whoa!" I raised my finger. "To call yourself advanced you must take at least three diversity training classes. What planet are you from, really?"

~
"There's no such thing as a more advanced civilization," I said. "All civilizations are equally advanced; they just find different ways to express their advancement."
My guest laughed. "I just escaped from a planet where people eat their neighbors whom they kill with sharp rocks. Does that sound advanced to you?"
"That is a value statement," I objected. "Did you try to examine the cause of their anger? Could they, perhaps, be hungry? Could they be disenfranchised victims of unfair trading policies, exercising early forms of class struggle against the oppressive neighbors? They didn't kill innocent chickens; that we do know."
"They sure wanted to kill and eat me. Come on, they're savages."
Savages? Really? "If you must use the 'S' word," I said indignantly, "have the decency to modify it with the word 'noble' - as in 'noble savage.'"
"They threw me into the fire," he said. "I was saved by my asbestos spacesuit, which they thought was my shiny skin. They're savages alright."
"At least they didn't harm the environment with asbestos, " I quipped. "Nor have they caused Global Warming with industrial pollution. That alone makes them more advanced than most Americans who have no social consciousness whatsoever."

"Who are these Americans you speak of?"
"I'm glad you asked," I said. "Americans are the most biased, oppressive, exploitive, insensitive, homophobic, racist, sexist, bloodthirsty, greedy, capitalistic, environmentally-unfriendly people who live in the ugliest country on planet Earth. You just landed in it."
The alien moved his eyes from the vegetarian imitation turkey, bottles of Evian water and his scoop of Ben & Jerry ice cream to the flat-screen high-definition TV, computer, dishwasher, cordless phone, and a thermostat on the wall next to the bookshelves with collector's editions of Marx, Lenin, Chomsky, and Michael Moore.

"For a citizen of such a hideous nation you're doing alright," he said. "Are you some sort of a king or a dictator?"
"A king?" I rolled my eyes. "I work on an educational grant from the government."
"Oh. So you do work for the government."
"It's not what it sounds," I corrected him. "I only let the American government pay me because that takes money away from their illegal wars. Whatever the Department of Education shells out on my grant is obviously not enough."
"Do tell me about the nature of your work."
"I am a professional revisionist. Currently I'm rewriting old novels that are on the students' reading lists, bringing them in compliance with the progressive worldview," I said. "I turn classic villains into sympathetic characters with legitimate grievances. The readers no longer have to take sides, which promotes in them a correct attitude of non-judgmental moral relativism. Occasionally I also expose classic heroes as biased reactionaries who enjoy their ill-gotten wealth, blind to exploitation of the toiling masses. The grant is called 'Prosaic Justice.' It is meant to raise the next generation of Americans as kinder, gentler, more sensible and intelligent human beings, unlike the grotesque monsters they are today."

[Sayf-Allah]

If you aren't going to stay on topic please ignore this thread. It's pretty clear what it is about and it should be easy to try to stay within those limits.

[Big Mac]

I am not a Muslim so I don't mean to tell Muslims what to do with their religion, but I think one has to pay attention to and aid the efforts of groups like this one. Muslims need to drive the change. The message could be that Islam does not need to compromise on its most important theological tenets (monotheism, anti-idolatry, Abrahamic traditions) while repudiating martyrdom, violent jihad, the two worlds view, illogical theologian created stances against Judaism and the verses that call for the subjugation, humiliation and even murder of Jews and Christians, as being contrary to peaceful elements of the faith. If Muslims truly believe there should be no compulsion in religion, then practice what you preach. Stop preaching that non-Muslims should never be able to enjoy political sovereignty anywhere in the Middle East. Stop preaching that non-Muslims in Muslim minority countries have to abide by the dictates of the Muslim minority and follow Sharia. Stop preaching the laughable historical falsehood that the biblical commonwealths of Israel never existed in the land of Israel, or that the Holy Temple never existed on the Temple Mount.

And most importantly, take a strong and unambiguous stance against terrorism. When there's a major terrorist attack in Israel or America, don't cheer and pass out candy in response to it - condemn it. Don't whitewash terrorism by saying that Muslims have inferior armies and must therefore resort to terrorism - call those who resort to terrorism infidels themselves, shun and condemn them, and make it clear to everyone else that such behavior will no longer be tolerated because Islam can't afford to be perceived that way by the rest of the world anymore. And think about finally ending the Arab-Israeli conflict in a peaceful fashion by resettling the Arab population currently in Israel. All of these solutions are easily within the grasp of the Muslim world to implement, and even a few of these recommendations would go a long way to ending terrorism and strife caused by Islam, IMO.

[SpaceMonkey]

I appreciate the intent behind this thread but I have to say that I think there is little point in discussing the issue on these terms (and maybe that was the point, I don't know). I was going to be flip and respond to an earlier comment by writing "all terrorism is local," but I decided that the more accurate statement would be "not all terrorism is global."

"Islamic" terrorism as it is commonly thought of in the United States is, by and large, the result of a particular mix of generational identity politics in the Arab world, petrodollars, and regional geopolitics between such actors such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan. Of course the situation in the Philippines (which I would call more of an insurgency) will display entirely different characteristics. This is not a religious or a political issue -- it's neither and a combination of both, depending on the circumstances. From a security standpoint it can be mitigated, but wholesale solutions are not in the cards.