[tooki]

So today I moved on to my fifth router in 3 years.

My first was a Netgear MR314, the last model to be in a metal enclosure. It stopped booting, and I spent the $ to mail it back to Netgear for replacement. The replacement lasted another six months before its wireless portion died.

I decided to cut my losses with the Netgear and try a D-Link. I got a DI-624, and it was great for about nine months, then it started rebooting spontaneously. I re-flashed it, and that fixed it for a bit, then it died altogether and stopped booting. I took it back to Best Buy and got a brand new one. That one lasted two months before it started spontaneously rebooting. (Any attempt to connect to it from my Pismo instantly caused a reboot.)

Today I took that second DI-624 back and got a Linksys WRT54G. Let's hope that the third time's the charm. (Third model, not unit... :sigh: )

The only good thing to come out of this is that since the prices of these things keep dropping, every time I take the damned thing back, Best Buy gives me a new unit and store credit back. On the latest one, I'll also be able to submit the rebates, so I'll have made back $40 on the bastard.


Is it just me or are these things made like crap? Is a freaking working router too much to ask?!?

tooki

[f1000]

Maybe it's something in the Baltimore air.

I've never had a router die on me so I suspect that you might have power problems in your area. Then again, routers have become disposable commodities that have a useful lifespan of less than five years. I'm sure engineers don't care too much about longevity when designing these products.

Do you plug your router into a UPS?

[ghporter]

I still have my first wireless access point, a Linksys WAP11, which still works fine. It just doesn't support WPA, so I got a WAP54G which does. I have the WAP wired into a separate wired router. I set up this way by accident; I got into wireless after I got into networking in general, so I simply added a separate access point.

Of course it's cheaper to get a "wireless router" than to get a wired router and separate access point, but I'm begining to see a potential method to this pricing madness. Most SOHO networking devices are sensitive to heat (Linksys equipment seems to be very sensitive), and when you put more functions into a box (like a wired router and an access point in the same box) you concentrate the heat. This obviously will lead to failures in a noticable percentage of units, since they don't come with any kind of built-in cooling.

Ah hah! Here's the potential strategy: give the customers a lot of features in one box, but since it is statistically less likely to last forever, bank on many failures and replacements being purchased. I'm not saying this is true, but it is certainly suspicious.

For my part, I'm sticking with the setup I have, including putting my router up on standoffs to let it cool better. So far, I've been right.

[f1000]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Ah hah! Here's the potential strategy: give the customers a lot of features in one box, but since it is statistically less likely to last forever, bank on many failures and replacements being purchased. I'm not saying this is true, but it is certainly suspicious.

In the old days, electronic products were enclosed in beautiful and often ornate metal and wooden cases. You don't see much of that now because most manufacturers assume that electronics will become obsolete in a matter of months. Just take a look at how quickly cell phones depreciate.

I laugh when I think about Gordon Gekko in Wall Street holding a cell phone the size of a tissue box to his head. That was considered gee-whiz tech in 1984. Ten years later, cell phones were the size of remote controls. Today, cell phones are made just large enough to fit in a practical screen and conform to a user's face; however, the RF components could be built into a PC Card or, gasp, a wristwatch! A 20 year old car might have some value, but who's going to buy Gordon Gekko's brick phone?

[tooki]

The problem with that is that a) the quality is so low that instead of having a gadget that works well but becomes obsolete, you have a crappy unit that never quite works right, and b) the environment is damaged just about the same for good and crappy stuff, so the cheap stuff has a much higher environmental impact since you go through so many of them. (Kind of how with cars, from an environmental standpoint, it never makes sense to buy a new car, because the energy used to manufacture the new fuel-efficient car exceeds the energy savings.)

tooki

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by tooki

the environment is damaged just about the same for good and crappy stuff, so the cheap stuff has a much higher environmental impact since you go through so many of them.

This is why it's important to be knowledgable about what's in what you buy, and what recycling services are available where you are.

I was surprised to find that in Austin, Texas, one of the tree-huggingest places I know of, that not all areas are even served by curbside recycling! Here in San Antonio, most areas are served, but there are also some very surprisingly thoughtful facilities for recycling toxic items like batteries.

With all of that said, I still don't know what kind of plastic the case of my oldest (and quite dead) Linksys router is made of because it isn't marked. I can find ways to recycle the circuit boards from it, but what about the plastic? Not all of these things are properly marked for recycling.

And with all the Dell bashing that goes on in our forums, they will recycle old computers and peripherals-anybody's-for less than the cost to cart the stuff away. (I know they subcontract some of it to places with less "enlightened" worker safety requirements than we have, but that is not their responsibility; it is the responsibility of the company that made the bid.)

On a separate issue, I'd also have to question how much across the board validity there is in your statement that it takes more energy to create a new fuel efficient car than that new car saves. If you are just looking at the fuel savings, you're right, but there are far more facets to the issue. A new car doesn't leak coolant and lubricants, so there's less toxic material leaked into the envronment that needs monitoring and cleaning up. Newer cars also polute less, meaning that there is less of a societal cost from using the new car. New cars come with warranties on the majority of the parts that have an affect on efficiency and the environment, so the owner of a new car is more likely to have a problem with those systems fixed (since he's "already paid for it" in buying the car). Looking at the whole picture, it is much better to get all the older, less efficient, more poluting cars off the road, even if there is an up front cost in creating new cars associated with that action, because that cost is more than offset by the long term savings in fuel and in environmental quality.

[Krusty]

My Netgear wireless router resets CONSTANTLY unless I use a Netgear card and only in their special 108mbps mode. If I try using the internal card (on a Dell ... its actually my neighbor's who I set up to to connect to my DSL wirelessly), the d@mn thing will not last more than 5 minutes before conking out.
It's been that way since it was brand new.

[turtle777]

I'm having constant troubles as well, right now with an el cheapo SMC router, that drops the connection every half an hour. Worked well for about 9 months, then the problems started.

I'm about to buy two of these ethernet powerline adapters to hook up my Mac mini, that should fix it.
Right now, I don't need a solution for laptops, but I wouldn't know either what to do...

-t

[turtle777]

Alright, I replaced my one year old SMC wifi router with a Linksys BEFW11S4.
Wow, what a difference in speed.

The Linksys is $ 10 after MIR at Bestbuy right now, so if anyone needs a good deal, here it is:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1051384294158

Btw, although the website doesn't mention it, the Linksys HAS WPA encryption.

-t

[tooki]

The nice thing about many Linksys models is how the firmware can be replaced with Linux, so if the regular firmware doesn't do what you need, you can just do it in Linux.

tooki

[Scooterboy]

I've never had a single problem with my Airport extreme base stations. I know they're more expensive but the ease of use and stability have more than paid for themselves. And best of all, clients never complained about their looks, either.

[Indohottie]

I second scooterboy's comment.. my extreme basestation has been amazing havent had any problems once I got the inital set up done..

[ghporter]

The biggest problem I've ever heard about AirPort Base Stations is their poor range in certain environments. I think this is mainly due to the fact that Apple went for cool looks and hid the antenna inside the case-and chose to use a fairly small and poor-performing antenna in the first place. The original ABS used an Orinoco wireless PC card with its tiny patch antenna. That gives you about the smallest coverage area you'll find in a base station-similar to setting up an ad hoc network between two PC card-equipped laptops. I LIKE the styling of AirPort Base Stations a LOT! But style shouldn't take priority over function.

As clunky as a Linksys wireless box looks, it will probably have TWO EXTERNAL ANTENNAS, allowing it to cover a MUCH LARGER area, and providing it with the capability to work in diversity mode-which makes it far more resistent to interference. Too bad Apple couldn't come up with something like that...

[tooki]

Of course, one can always add an external antenna to the AirPort (and most 3rd party, including Linksys) models to extend range further.

tooki

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by tooki

Of course, one can always add an external antenna to the AirPort (and most 3rd party, including Linksys) models to extend range further.

tooki

Sure, but you can only add one antenna-the hardware isn't capable of diversity as far as I've been able to find, so it's at a disadvantage against the other folks' stuff. While it may sound like I'm ragging on AirPort bases, I'm really just frustrated that Apple hasn't done something to give customers better coverage, like offering a base that supports diversity operation.

[GSixZero]

I've been mostly happy with my overpriced airport extreme base-stations.

Yes, only having 1 antenna sort of sucks, but I have a 3 base-station WDS network (1 Extreme, 2 Expresses) in my 750 square foot apartment. I bet my friend that there was no where in my apartment I couldn't get 4 bars, but I lost. Only 3 bars in the refrigerator with the door closed.

[turtle777]

^^^ That's it. I'll NEVER buy Apple products again !

-t

[Ω]

Originally Posted by GSixZero

I've been mostly happy with my overpriced airport extreme base-stations.

Yes, only having 1 antenna sort of sucks, but I have a 3 base-station WDS network (1 Extreme, 2 Expresses) in my 750 square foot apartment. I bet my friend that there was no where in my apartment I couldn't get 4 bars, but I lost. Only 3 bars in the refrigerator with the door closed.

Who was reading the strength signal in the fridge?

More importantly does the light stay on when the door is closed!!

[GSixZero]

Originally Posted by _?_

Who was reading the strength signal in the fridge?

More importantly does the light stay on when the door is closed!!

Both very good questions...

[l008com]

I find these things generally last no more than a year. I also find that linksys are very offten dead/defective right out of the box, where netgears will at least work for a little bit. This is why I still use a computer as a router, and I get very annoyed with people when they tell me how I should switch to a $20 hardware router. I have a Netgear wireless router but I only use it as a wireless basestation. I can no longer log into its config page to edit any settings no matter what I do. I have another one set up somewhere else whose wireless only works for a few hours, then it needs to be power cycled. Hardware routers all suck. With my server-as-a-router set up now, its super reliable, so I always know that if theres a problem, its not the router.

[ghporter]

My first wireless device was a Linksys WAP11 (now 3 years old) that I graduated away from because nobody ever wrote firmware for it that supported WPA. I have never seen a "defective out of the box" Linksys device of any kind. I don't think I'm that lucky...maybe other folks are that unlucky?

[l008com]

All 3 linksys routers i bought for myself were dead out of the box, and two my uncle bought were dead out of the box. Plus nearly every client I have that uses linksys has problems with it.

[Partisan01]

Originally Posted by l008com

I find these things generally last no more than a year. I also find that linksys are very offten dead/defective right out of the box, where netgears will at least work for a little bit. This is why I still use a computer as a router, and I get very annoyed with people when they tell me how I should switch to a $20 hardware router. I have a Netgear wireless router but I only use it as a wireless basestation. I can no longer log into its config page to edit any settings no matter what I do. I have another one set up somewhere else whose wireless only works for a few hours, then it needs to be power cycled. Hardware routers all suck. With my server-as-a-router set up now, its super reliable, so I always know that if theres a problem, its not the router.

You could always invest in a Soekris device: http://www.soekris.com/. It's an embedded PC that can be used as a wired router, or wireless router. The cool thing is it'll only use 12W instead of whatever your computer uses, plus it's silent no fans. It's a bit more of an investment in time and money over a hardware router. But if you're already using a computer you've invested the time, I'm sure the migration wouldn't be to complex. I know Open/Net/Free[BSD] all run fine, I've ran Linux on a few models also. It seems that OpenBSD and Linux are the biggest OSes users use on the machines.

Plus they come in a metal case, they are very tough...

[l008com]

But my computer router isn't just a router, its also my 'personal' web and email server, plus a VPN portal to my home network, plus I use it as a netboot server for my home network as well. But as far as wireless units, I have never heard of an apple airport go bad, so when my home netgear finally stops functioning for good, I'll probably replace it with an airport express. They cost more but if you need any sort of reliability at all, they are well worth the extra price.

--
Although I do think they should rearrange their lineup a bit. I think the big expensive airports should also have airtunes ports, and I think they should make an airtunes only device that costs maybe $30 and isn't a router, but just a wireless client that broadcasts its audio port to the network. That would be killer.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by l008com

All 3 linksys routers i bought for myself were dead out of the box, and two my uncle bought were dead out of the box. Plus nearly every client I have that uses linksys has problems with it.

It sounds like you got "returns" that the store wanted to unload. I've bought all of my Linksys equipment from Buy.com, so I get brand new, never opened devices that haven't been borked with by thumb fingered jerks who screw up products then return them. It sounds like what you got were apparently this sort of thing, and when you opened them they really were dead-because someone else killed them. What store did you get these three DOAs?

[l008com]

Amazon.com

[l008com]

Actually I think I might have bought one of them at some store in person. But none of them were damaged in any way, they all appeared to be perfect and brand new. Just not working.

[C.J. Moof]

I recently replaced 3 original Apple Airport base stations that had been running continously for 4+ years with Linksys WRT54G access points. The Apple equipment needed no maintenance, aside from replacing the capacitors that failed after about 2 years. The linksys need to be kicked every couple of weeks, one more than others.

I moved from the Apple to Linksys for .g speed and the ability to do WPA authentication against a RADIUS server, tricks that the old ABS just won't do.

[OwlBoy]

Tooki: I Have had the same problems with Routers in general

Its something that just ain't made good for an OK price.

-Owl

[tooki]

FWIW (and to answer some of the questions I missed the first time around), I did finally get a UPS recently (an APC Back-UPS XS 1000), perhaps that will help.

The other thing that throws another wrench into things: since I first posted, I have heard reports of Tiger causing routers to reboot. (Reverting to Panther on the same hardware stops the problem, reportedly.) My aforementioned Pismo is running Tiger. But of course, any hardware that fails because of a software update is defective anyway -- a router should be able to handle malformed packets without malfunctioning.

tooki

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by tooki

FWIW (and to answer some of the questions I missed the first time around), I did finally get a UPS recently (an APC Back-UPS XS 1000), perhaps that will help.

I'll bet THAT is going to greatly slow down the rate you go through routers. One lightning strike 3 houses away made me a convert to UPSs-my microwave and coffee maker are about the only things in the house NOT on an UPS.

Originally Posted by tooki

The other thing that throws another wrench into things: since I first posted, I have heard reports of Tiger causing routers to reboot. (Reverting to Panther on the same hardware stops the problem, reportedly.) My aforementioned Pismo is running Tiger. But of course, any hardware that fails because of a software update is defective anyway -- a router should be able to handle malformed packets without malfunctioning.

tooki

I'd really have to see that! I can't imagine how a purpose-built router could be forced to reboot because of something a client computer's OS did. Since the router (theoretically) only looks at the address fields of the packets, those with bad addresses should be discarded, and those with bad payloads should just go on through. I've seen a lot of routers that needed rebooting from time to time, but never one that did so because of the traffic. Curiouser and curiouser...

[tooki]

I have been well-protected against lightning with high-quality surge strips. But that's not even the matter: the last D-Link never went through any lightning storms. The only thing the UPS will do for me now is protect against brownouts.


So, the 2-week old Linksys has spontaneously rebooted on me twice (at least, I think it rebooted, I've never been within sight of it when it happens). My wireless signal will just vanish, and the network disappears. A minute later it comes back.

This is ridiculous.

tooki

[ghporter]

Tooki, there were problems with one version of the WRT54G's firmware that caused them to choke from time to time. Is yours a G or GS? Better yet, take a look at www.linksysinfo.org...great information there.

[tooki]

It's the G -- why would I spend extra $ for a higher-speed mode that's not compatible with my Macs?

I looked at that site before -- it's a mess. If there's any useful info there, I'm not willing to slog through a gazillion pages of technobabble to find it. (It's one of those typical hacker sites that assumes you already know what everything is, lacking any useful intros or anything.)

tooki

[Kevin Moon]

I have an asante router (fr1004al) and a zyxel router (zyair G-2000) and they run all the time with no problems. The asante is about 3 years old and the zyxel is about a year old. The asante gets restarted when the cable company sends new firmware to the modem. The zyxel is restarted when the power goes out or I move between dorms. I have to say the range of the zyxel is amazing goes through concrete walls with very little signal loss. It is also the most stable router I have ever seen. I highly recommend zyxel routers even though they cost a lot more. Asante in my list is right below zyxel for reliability.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by tooki

It's the G -- why would I spend extra $ for a higher-speed mode that's not compatible with my Macs?

I looked at that site before -- it's a mess. If there's any useful info there, I'm not willing to slog through a gazillion pages of technobabble to find it. (It's one of those typical hacker sites that assumes you already know what everything is, lacking any useful intros or anything.)

tooki

You're right about the overall Linksysinfo site. They seem to enjoy buzzing everything instead of using human language. The forum I pointed to should have some good info, but it's probably on about the same level. Sorry about that.

The reason I asked which model you got was that the WRT54GS is a more capable machine with more flash memory and a better/faster processor. It can handle Sveasoft's more expansive and feature-rich firmware quite well.

Assuming your new WRT is hardware version 3, here is the latest firmware from Linksys-it's supposed to address a disconnect issue. Silly coders-they messed something up and the box would frequently disconnect for no detectable reason. Does that sound familiar?

[Eug Wanker]

The easiest are still dedicated wireless access points. Just plug it into the router and you're good to go (once you've set up the authentication). Maybe it's because it's easier to get it to work properly if all it has to do is function as an access point. The only problem is then you need an access point AND a router, which essentially doubles your cost.

Originally Posted by tooki

The other thing that throws another wrench into things: since I first posted, I have heard reports of Tiger causing routers to reboot. (Reverting to Panther on the same hardware stops the problem, reportedly.) My aforementioned Pismo is running Tiger. But of course, any hardware that fails because of a software update is defective anyway -- a router should be able to handle malformed packets without malfunctioning.

Hmmm... I wonder if it's a bug in Tiger causing my dead 100 Mbps Ethernet issue. Maybe I'll try bringing in my 10.3.9 drive into work to see if booting off that works.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by ghporter

You're right about the overall Linksysinfo site. They seem to enjoy buzzing everything instead of using human language. The forum I pointed to should have some good info, but it's probably on about the same level. Sorry about that.

The reason I asked which model you got was that the WRT54GS is a more capable machine with more flash memory and a better/faster processor. It can handle Sveasoft's more expansive and feature-rich firmware quite well.

Assuming your new WRT is hardware version 3, here is the latest firmware from Linksys-it's supposed to address a disconnect issue. Silly coders-they messed something up and the box would frequently disconnect for no detectable reason. Does that sound familiar?

Actually, it's version 2 hardware. But you do know that the same firmware is used, regardless of hardware version? But yes, I installed the latest firmware as soon as I bought the thing, of course! How newbie do you think I am?!?

tooki

[ghporter]

Tooki, I didn't know how long the thing had been on the shelf, or how much time you'd had to mess with firmware, which should be a trivial thing that doesn't need attention.

You might look into the Sveasoft stuff-apparently their firmware is significantly better and more stable than Linksys'. I think since Cisco bought them they've been leaning on the Open Source stuff, and not doing their best work.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by tooki

So, the 2-week old Linksys has spontaneously rebooted on me twice (at least, I think it rebooted, I've never been within sight of it when it happens). My wireless signal will just vanish, and the network disappears. A minute later it comes back.

This is ridiculous.

tooki

Ha, you lucky @%#&$^#. Yours at least comes back on by itself. My new Linksys has to be completely reset (without power for 10 sec) before it starts working again.

Happend three times in 4 weeks, a brand new box
Well, it was $ 10 after rebate, but still, why the f@rk can't these routers just work...

-t

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Ha, you lucky @%#&$^#. Yours at least comes back on by itself. My new Linksys has to be completely reset (without power for 10 sec) before it starts working again.

Happend three times in 4 weeks, a brand new box
Well, it was $ 10 after rebate, but still, why the f@rk can't these routers just work...

-t

I'd get aggressive with the retailer on this one, turtle. Brand new and won't stay operating? It's hosed! Take it back, and demand one that works! "It's just $10 after rebate" doesn't make it free, and the retailer is responsible for making sure you're happy with your new purchase. Make them make it right!

(I say all of this knowing that it's a major hemorrhoid to uplug, pack up, and run the thing back to the store, but it's the only way to get them to pay attention.)

I believe that the explosion of wireless devices, and the manufacturers' attempts to flood the market with their products has reduced the QC they do on what rolls off the line. They're apparently (ALL manufacturers) sending out boxes that haven't had enough burn in, and they're equipping these boxes with firmware that hasn't been thoroughly tested. I'm getting frustrated on this issue, and I haven't even bought any new equipment in a long time!

[turtle777]

Well, thanks to CompUSA's gracious 20 days return period, I'd had to send it in to Linksys. What gives... And all that hassle without knowing that it REALLY will be fixed ? I think it's just a fact of life, the unavoidable sh!t with technology...

-t

[tooki]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Tooki, I didn't know how long the thing had been on the shelf, or how much time you'd had to mess with firmware, which should be a trivial thing that doesn't need attention.

You might look into the Sveasoft stuff-apparently their firmware is significantly better and more stable than Linksys'. I think since Cisco bought them they've been leaning on the Open Source stuff, and not doing their best work.

Well, I got it at Best Buy, so I know it wasn't on the shelf for long -- their turnover is amazing. Also, one of the stickers on the box was very recent. Who knows why they had older stock. :shrug:

As for the Sveasoft firmware -- I've heard of tons of problems with it, too. I'm sure not everyone encounters them, but it's no silver bullet, either.

tooki

[turtle777]

After all I have been through, I'm almost tempted to give an original Airport Express a chance. Any of you guys heard of those babies acting up ?

-t

[ginoledesma]

My Netgear MR814v2 started acting up about 6 months after I bought it. It would lock-up hard and the only thing you could do was give it a power-cycle. Didn't wait for it to conk out until I got the Netgear WGR614v4 -- I was a sucker for Netgears (first because it was good in the late 90's, and second because Amazon had it for $40 off).

The second one seems to be performing much better, but ever since I moved to Verizon DSL, I've had to use the VersaTel wireless router (it has a really crappy interface, but at least it works).

[turtle777]

Well, I'm even thinking of dumping wireless interent on my Mac mini altogether and switch to those ethernet over powerline adapters.

-t

[vmarks]

My linksys wrt54g has been going strong for over three years. Bought it Jan 2002.

The netgear that I bought for a client died within six weeks. Got them a linksys.

[f1000]

My D-link DI-624 kicked the bucket today. While it's still under warranty, I have to pay for shipping.

I think seeing this thread jinxed me. It's like The Ring.

[genevish]

I has a Belkin that died (I think it got fried by lightning), and replaced it with a Linksys WRT54g several months ago. I put that thing on a shelf adn havn't had a problem yet. My Internet will go out frm time, but it's always been Comcasts fault...

[tooki]

So guess what? The stupid Linksys is starting to give me trouble, too. It's been one month and four days. (The previous D-Link lasted exactly one month to the day before it started acting up.) The wireless will just randomly go out, and the sole way of getting it back is to log into the admin interface via wired ethernet and change the wireless' radio channel. Not even unplugging it from the outlet for a minute will reset it sufficiently.

Why do all these routers hate me? I treat them with kid gloves, protected from power glitches via two (!) high-grade surge strips and a high-grade UPS. It sits in the corner of a nice cool room, away from any kind of physical abuse, and all I do with it is regular web surfing, instant messaging, etc.

The firmware is the latest.

Does anyone have any suggestions? A lack of reliable networking is absolutely driving me nuts!

tooki