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tooki · Jul 9, 2005, 06:45 PM

So I decide to take the plunge and see if the Dvorak layout really is as good as it is claimed to be. My Pismo's keyboard also needed a proper cleaning, so I pulled off all the keycaps, cleaned out all the lint with tweezers and sticky tape, and put the keycaps back on -- in Dvorak. Here's the result.

tooki

The Godfather · Jul 9, 2005, 07:17 PM

Get a blo... oh oops. Let us know how it goes

OwlBoy · Jul 9, 2005, 07:19 PM

Mods abusing power!

I could never switch to a new layout…

-Owl

Sage · Jul 9, 2005, 07:26 PM

If you switch to a Dvorak layout, does it still work on the Login screen? Or will it switch back to QWERTY?

tooki · Jul 9, 2005, 07:39 PM

In Panther and earlier, it always reverts to QWERTY. In Tiger, it does that by default, but there is now a Login Options checkbox to show the input menu at the login screen.

tooki

P.S. Executives get perks like free aircraft; one of ours is to not need separate image hosting!

BTW, can all of you regular users see & download the image fine? As an admin, I see many thins that are hidden to normal users.

loki74 · Jul 9, 2005, 07:40 PM

Im not sure but I read somewhere that Dvorak was actually at the forefront but people were typing so fast that they broke their typewriters. (not sure if ur article actually mentioned this-just kinda skimmed it) So to remedy that they make qwerty so that typists would slow down to accomodate the mechanics of the typewriter. But i guess keyboards can handle it. My mother switched to it a couple of years ago, and she tells me its much easier. The only reason I havent is because I've become too familiar with qwerty and also for compatability. And besisdes, most of an aritsts work is done with the mouse...

Person Man · Jul 9, 2005, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by tooki

P.S. Executives get perks like free aircraft; one of ours is to not need separate image hosting!

BTW, can all of you regular users see & download the image fine? As an admin, I see many thins that are hidden to normal users.

Yes, but you're "on sabbatical," Mr. Admin.

Yes, the image downloads fine.

tooki · Jul 9, 2005, 07:45 PM

QWERTY was developed to slow down typists (and keep the type bars for common letter combinations apart), but previous typewriters had alphabetical keys. Dvorak came later, after QWERTY.

tooki

Person Man · Jul 9, 2005, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by loki74

Im not sure but I read somewhere that Dvorak was actually at the forefront but people were typing so fast that they broke their typewriters. (not sure if ur article actually mentioned this-just kinda skimmed it) So to remedy that they make qwerty so that typists would slow down to accomodate the mechanics of the typewriter. But i guess keyboards can handle it. My mother switched to it a couple of years ago, and she tells me its much easier. The only reason I havent is because I've become too familiar with qwerty and also for compatability. And besisdes, most of an aritsts work is done with the mouse...

Actually original typewriters had the keys in alphabetical order, and typists got so fast that keys got stuck. That's why QWERTY was invented. THEN Dvorak came along.

tooki · Jul 9, 2005, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Person Man

Yes, but you're "on sabbatical," Mr. Admin.

I declare that I shall have my cake and eat it, too!

tooki

itistoday · Jul 9, 2005, 08:14 PM

So... how do you like it? And is it easy to switch from that back to Qwerty (say you're not using your laptop)?

ReggieX · Jul 9, 2005, 08:43 PM

Image attachment worked fine. Made me sad that I was trying to get an old PowerBook 2400 or Pismo off eBay last month and kept forgetting to bid on the good deals I found. Oh well, not like I need one.

Originally Posted by tooki

QWERTY was developed to slow down typists (and keep the type bars for common letter combinations apart),

The former point is false, the latter point is true. The idea was that alternate sides of the keyboard would be used so that the flying arms didn't stick if two on the same side were used at the same time.

Oisín · Jul 9, 2005, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by ReggieX

The former point is false, the latter point is true. The idea was that alternate sides of the keyboard would be used so that the flying arms didn't stick if two on the same side were used at the same time.

...hence 'slowing down' the typists who would possibly still be typing as fast, but would not be typing keystrokes right next to each other as fast (usually).

Superchicken · Jul 9, 2005, 10:11 PM

I've thought of changing to Dvorak but... I already type pretty darned fast, and it'd screw up all my command keys.

Sarc · Jul 9, 2005, 10:20 PM

Here's a nice comic that explains everything in a very simple way. Both easy and fast to read.
http://dvzine.org/zine/index.html

I've been using Dvorak myself for a couple of weeks now. It's a nice layout, goes easy on the wrists.

SSharon · Jul 9, 2005, 10:40 PM

tooki, why do you have internet explorer in your dock? good that its not running, but why look at it if you don't have to?

Stradlater · Jul 9, 2005, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Superchicken

I've thought of changing to Dvorak but... I already type pretty darned fast, and it'd screw up all my command keys.

That's what "Dvorak - Qwerty ⌘" is for.

Railroader · Jul 9, 2005, 11:09 PM

A friend had a Pismo with a blank keyboard. He was a dvorak typist and he thought it was a good way to keep the common idiot from using his computer.

Superchicken · Jul 9, 2005, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Stradlater

That's what "Dvorak - Qwerty ⌘" is for.

Thanks, almost had me switching. That said PS Elements 2 doesn't support it... which really sucks. It doesn't seem to be a carbon vs. cocoa thing either because iTunes supports it... bloody adobe... always against me!

TETENAL · Jul 9, 2005, 11:39 PM

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=356

Superchicken · Jul 9, 2005, 11:51 PM

You know i think most Dvorak users just try harder with Dvorak. Really everyone should just have PB keyboards.

tooki · Jul 10, 2005, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=356

You need to read the link i provided. The "carefully crafted study" by the GSA is in fact based on nothing more than hearsay; the author of said study destroyed all his "evidence" rather than let others examine it. It's highly suspect.

tooki

Athens · Jul 10, 2005, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by tooki

So I decide to take the plunge and see if the Dvorak layout really is as good as it is claimed to be. My Pismo's keyboard also needed a proper cleaning, so I pulled off all the keycaps, cleaned out all the lint with tweezers and sticky tape, and put the keycaps back on -- in Dvorak. Here's the result.

tooki

you need a new N key, it looks a little over used hehe

tooki · Jul 10, 2005, 11:32 AM

Right?!? I have no idea why only N, M, and O have worn down while other, more used letters have not. (Based on glossiness of the keys.)

tooki

Athens · Jul 10, 2005, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by tooki

Right?!? I have no idea why only N, M, and O have worn down while other, more used letters have not. (Based on glossiness of the keys.)

tooki

Perhaps its from say NO so much to people LOL and M is just a accedental from when you mean NO

Nodnarb · Jul 10, 2005, 11:53 AM

Well tooki, it's cool that you've switched but you haven't explained how you like it. Is it easier to type on? Are your typing speeds much quicker now than before? Or are you still taking time to get used to it?

tooki · Jul 10, 2005, 12:29 PM

Right now it is still very much slower. But I'll give it some time.

tooki

Cipher13 · Jul 10, 2005, 12:34 PM

I switched to Dvorak a few years ago, and found i couldn't break my Qwerty habit. I type far too fast, and don't have the patience to learn a new layout... muscle memory is hard to beat.

I found myself switching back to Qwerty (just via the input menu) whenever I needed to chat to anyone, or write a report. I'd like to change to Dvorak, but it isn't gonna happen.

Infact, my keyboard is still laid out as per Dvorak, but I use it as Qwerty.

Superchicken · Jul 10, 2005, 01:55 PM

That's probably what I'd do. I don't even think about which keys are where I just tap my fingers and the text comes.

CharlesS · Jul 10, 2005, 04:42 PM

Yd. Ekrpat t.fxrape nafrgy co j.pyacbnf ab cby.p.oycbi ce.av C-m bry ogp. cu C-e x. axn. yr i.y go.e yr cyw ydrgidw ao C am uacpnf ajjgoyrm.e yr ",.pyfv C-m bry ogp. C-e dak. yd. layc.bj. yr ir ydprgid ann yd. p.ypacbcbiv

Oisín · Jul 10, 2005, 04:53 PM

Yes, of course, couldn't agree more...

Originally Posted by CharlesS

yr i. y go. e yr cyw ydrgidw [...] yr ir ydprgid ann yd

This looks like it might just be a valid sentence in Welsh, though.

AKcrab · Jul 10, 2005, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

I switched to Dvorak a few years ago, and found i couldn't break my Qwerty habit. I type far too fast, and don't have the patience to learn a new layout... muscle memory is hard to beat.

I found myself switching back to Qwerty (just via the input menu) whenever I needed to chat to anyone, or write a report. I'd like to change to Dvorak, but it isn't gonna happen..

My foray into the Dvorak layout was absolutely identical to yours. I just could not get my fingers to "unlearn" qwerty. My mom started me touch-typing in 3rd grade, and it just seems too ingrained to switch.

Albert Pujols · Jul 10, 2005, 05:21 PM

edit: now I know.

Chuckit · Jul 10, 2005, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Yd. Ekrpat t.fxrape nafrgy co j.pyacbnf ab cby.p.oycbi ce.av C-m bry ogp. cu C-e x. axn. yr i.y go.e yr cyw ydrgidw ao C am uacpnf ajjgoyrm.e yr ",.pyfv C-m bry ogp. C-e dak. yd. layc.bj. yr ir ydprgid ann yd. p.ypacbcbiv

You'd at least want to switch the labels on your keys, I think.

CharlesS · Jul 10, 2005, 05:47 PM

You could also try lightening up a bit and recognizing a joke as a joke.

Oh wait, I forgot:

Frg jrgne anor ypf ncidy.bcbi gl a xcy abe p.jribc;cbi a hrt. ao a hrt.v

Oisín · Jul 10, 2005, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Frg jrgne anor ypf ncidy.bcbi gl a xcy abe p.jribc;cbi a hrt. ao a hrt.v

You do realise that nobody is bothering to look up what it actually says there, don't you? (Or are you perhaps counting on it?)

CharlesS · Jul 10, 2005, 06:02 PM

It says, "You could also try lightening up a bit and recognizing a joke as a joke."

If you looked just above it, you would see that all the words have the same number of letters.

Sheesh...

Oisín · Jul 10, 2005, 06:39 PM

Oh yeah, so they do! Well, I claim fatigue—it's close to one A.M., and I'm on my way to bed, so I demand to be held irresponsible... err, I mean, not responsible!

Chuckit · Jul 10, 2005, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

You could also try lightening up a bit and recognizing a joke as a joke.

Sorry. The lack of the words "Michael Jackson" threw me off. (

, for those who missed this one too.)

CharlesS · Jul 10, 2005, 09:18 PM

Uh, I think I missed this one. What does Michael Jackson have to do with the Dvorak layout?

Superchicken · Jul 10, 2005, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Uh, I think I missed this one. What does Michael Jackson have to do with the Dvorak layout?

Wait... you... you don't know? Ha... oh m... ha!

... loser...

tooki · Jul 10, 2005, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Albert Pujols

edit: now I know.

Wrong Dvorak!!

tooki

alligator · Jul 10, 2005, 09:48 PM

Okay, this is fairly cool. If it actually had a chance of catching on, I'd learn it. But seriously, I'd have to buy new keyboards since I'm too lazy to pull the keys off of mine. Maybe if Apple adopts it, then it will catch on.

ghporter · Jul 10, 2005, 10:12 PM

There are two (or more) schools of thought on keyboard arrangement. The first says that the order and arrangement of letters on the keyboard has been irrelevant since advances in typewriter design made the original QWERTY layout unnecessary, and that given the right training early enough, anyone could learn to type quite well with ANY layout. The other school holds that people's fingers are naturally unequal in strength and dexterity (on average), so it would speed up typing and increase accuracy if the layout placed the most-used letters under the most dextrous fingers-this is a generalization of the genesis of the Dvorak keyboard.

In actual fact, there have been few well documented and controlled attempts to start young people off with Dvorak or QWERTY and then measure their proficiency. This boils down to "it's a personal preference."

Speaking of Dvorak, John Dvorak, the columnist pictured in this thread, has recommended a number of innovative input devices, including something that uses all five fingers of each hand on separate controllers. He says it works fine after you get used to it. Me? I'm afraid I'd never be able to type again if I tried some new layout. It reminds me of an old Garfield cartoon; Jon asks Garfield if he walks left front, left rear then right front right rear, or if it's left front, right rear and then right front, left rear. Garfield thinks on it for a minute, then says "I'll never walk again!" My fingers are too used to QWERTY to get try to do anything else right now.

I should also point out that at one point I was teaching teletype operators how to issue computer commands on a satellite communications terminal, and I had to consistently show them where the "Control" key was-sideways, since they were in front of the keyboard. I got pretty good at typing sideways then, but I haven't practiced in years.

MrForgetable · Jul 10, 2005, 10:48 PM

i don't think I could ever switch to Dvorak. sounds pretty tempting to try though.

Sage · 11:39 PM

Well, I'm going to try and learn – it's worth a shot. I'm not going to pull off any keys though – just force myself to touch-type all of it. And if I pulled off and rearranged the keys, my parents wouldn't be too happy.

[edit]: Looks like there's a flaw in Apple's implementation of Dvorak + Qwerty Command. When you use that, the shift key doesn't work as a modifier with the Command key anymore, so, for example, Command + } is impossible. Damn!

funkboy · Jul 11, 2005, 12:27 AM

I'm giving it a shot right now - thanks for the idea!
If I do this at work, I should be back up to my normal WPM by the end of the week.

Don't be worried about forgetting qwerty; this is like learning another language.

(man did that take me a long time to type in dvorak... this will take some readjusting!)

Albert Pujols · Jul 11, 2005, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by tooki

Wrong Dvorak!!

tooki

I keep imagining people typing in Dvorak...in John C. Dvorak.

Superchicken · Jul 11, 2005, 01:12 AM

I have a friend who switched to Dvorak... I think I still type a lot faster than he does.

Chuckit · Jul 11, 2005, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Uh, I think I missed this one. What does Michael Jackson have to do with the Dvorak layout?

I meant, "I've forgotten how to recognize jokes that don't have Michael Jackson in them." Because people tell a lot of Michael Jackson jokes nowadays, you see...