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Hate Crime Laws - Yea or Nay?
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OAW
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Jan 5, 2017, 04:11 PM
 
Four black teens were charged with hate crimes and other felonies in Chicago Thursday in connection with the apparent torture and a taunting of a white special needs student in a video that was posted live on Facebook, prosecutors said.

The Cook County prosecutors office charged Tesfaye Cooper, 18, Brittany Covington, 18, and Tanishia Covington, 24, all of Chicago, and Jordan Hill, 18, of Carpentersville, Ill., with aggravated kidnapping, hate crime, aggravated unlawful restraint, aggravated battery with a deadly weapon and residential burglary.

Hill was also charged with robbery and possession of a stolen motor vehicle.


The four were expected to appear in court on Tuesday.

The half-hour video, which exploded on social media on Wednesday, appears to show at least one black man torturing and taunting the 18-year-old white man and making disparaging remarks about President-elect Donald Trump. The assaults were apparently carried out over a two-day period, apparently Monday and Sunday.

The video was initially posted via Facebook Live under the account of someone named Brittany Herring and spread quickly through Twitter and under the hashtag #BLMKidnapping.

BLM is an apparent reference to the social justice group Black Lives Matter, which did not appear to have any connection to the video.


Facebook has confirmed that it removed from original video from one of the suspect's Facebook profiles. "We do not allow people to celebrate or glorify crimes on Facebook and have removed the original video for this reason," Facebook said. "In many instances, though, when people share this type of content, they are doing so to condemn violence or raise awareness about it. In that case, the video would be allowed."

The video, linked here, includes raw language. At one point, as the victim — who appears to be white — crouches against a wall with his wrists bound and his mouth taped shut, someone is heard on the video shouting, “F‑‑‑ Donald Trump” and “F‑‑‑ white people.”

Police said in a statement that the victim, who is believed to be from a Chicago suburb, was in stable condition. Chicago Police Superintendent Eddie Johnson said Wednesday that the victim has "mental health challenges."
Chicago Facebook Live beating suspects charged with hate crimes

This situation is downright disgusting on so many levels. Assault and kidnapping of any human being is just crazy and criminal. Having a racial motivation behind it makes it even worse. To target a mentally challenged kid is simply beyond the pale. And to broadcast yourself in the commission of a felony on Facebook Live reflects a stupidity that knows no bounds. I have not one iota of sympathy for these fools. They deserve whatever jail time they have coming and then some.

That being said, this is just one example of a crime motivated by "hate". The topic of the thread is whether or not "hate crimes" in general are a good idea? Whether they be based upon race, gender, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, etc.? What are the pros and cons of such legislation as you see it?

Discuss!

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The Final Dakar
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Jan 5, 2017, 06:34 PM
 
I see the logic in those who against the legislation, but I kind of agree with having these built in protections to discourage planned crimes against minority blocks.

All that aside, I have no idea how you rehabilitate these ****ers.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 6, 2017, 12:01 AM
 
These animals didn't imprison and brutalize the guy because he was a minority. ie. "f*** Trump" & "f*** white people"
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OAW  (op)
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Jan 6, 2017, 01:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I see the logic in those who against the legislation, but I kind of agree with having these built in protections to discourage planned crimes against minority blocks.

All that aside, I have no idea how you rehabilitate these ****ers.
Personally I've always been rather "ambivalent" towards hate crime laws. I mean I get why they exist. But they strike me as rather redundant at best and a easy political target at worst. It seems to me that an "AGGRAVATED Assault" charge would be a sufficient mechanism to assign a greater degree of guilt and therefore harsher punishment upon conviction for the racial motivation behind the attack and mentally challenged status of the victim. But OTOH perhaps being convicted of a "hate crime" conveys a greater degree of social stigma that society at large wishes to impose?

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OreoCookie
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Jan 6, 2017, 03:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Personally I've always been rather "ambivalent" towards hate crime laws.
I mean I get why they exist. But they strike me as rather redundant at best and a easy political target at worst. [...] But OTOH perhaps being convicted of a "hate crime" conveys a greater degree of social stigma that society at large wishes to impose?
The last sentence is key for the moral dimension, but additionally there is a practical one: hate crime laws also allowed the federal government to intervene in case crimes aren't properly investigated and prosecuted. To me it seems clear that at least when it comes to the latter point, hate crime laws are still necessary.
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BadKosh
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Jan 6, 2017, 07:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
These animals didn't imprison and brutalize the guy because he was a minority. ie. "f*** Trump" & "f*** white people"
So, you've talked to them and you trust what they said? Or is it more assuming you know the thoughts of others?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jan 6, 2017, 09:22 AM
 
Does minority status matter? I'm not getting why it would.

If you guys had hate crime laws like Europe, half your state governors, representatives, legislators, senators, congresspeople, cabinet and even your inbound President would probably be in jail. Not that that would be a bad thing.
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OAW  (op)
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Jan 6, 2017, 09:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The last sentence is key for the moral dimension, but additionally there is a practical one: hate crime laws also allowed the federal government to intervene in case crimes aren't properly investigated and prosecuted. To me it seems clear that at least when it comes to the latter point, hate crime laws are still necessary.
I hadn't considered that part. And with the shameful history of some state/local prosecutors refusing to pursue justice or local juries refusing to convict perpetrators of such crimes against minorities that certainly tips the scales for me on the necessity for the legislation.

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Jan 6, 2017, 09:34 AM
 
To say nothing about the current admin......
     
OAW  (op)
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Jan 6, 2017, 09:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So, you've talked to them and you trust what they said? Or is it more assuming you know the thoughts of others?
Did you bother to follow the link and view the actual video where we can all see them saying these things out of their own mouths? Oh what am I thinking ... of course not.

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Jan 6, 2017, 09:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Does minority status matter? I'm not getting why it would.
It doesn't at all. The legislative language doesn't create protected classes. Instead it creates protected characteristics. For instance, it provides for the ability to assign a higher degree of guilt and punishment if the motivation behind a crime was based upon RACE or GENDER of any variety. It does NOT do this on the basis of being a MINORITY or FEMALE.

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Jan 6, 2017, 09:57 AM
 
This is an earlier situation that received far less media attention because it wasn't posted on social media. Given the outcome perhaps this is a prime example of what OreoCookie meant about hate crime laws being a mechanism to intervene when local "good ole boy" prosecutors refuse to do their job?

The white ringleader of a horrific sexual assault of a mentally disabled black teen will avoid jail time and escape classification as a sex offender after pleading guilty to a lesser charge, the Daily Kos reports.

John R.K. Howard plead guilty Friday to one felony count of injury to a child after leading two football teammates to help him carry out a a violent sexual attack on a black teammate with mental disabilities.

The attack occurred on Oct. 23, 2015, when Howard and Tanner Ward, along with a third juvenile student, pretended to offer the victim a hug, then held him down and sodomized him with a coat hanger. KTVB reports “a third attacker then kicked the coat hanger several times, forcing it farther into the victim’s body and causing rectal injuries that required treatment at a hospital.”

The assault followed several months of race-related discrimination levied against the victim, who was adopted by a Dietrich, Idaho family when he was a child. The 18-year old victim was reportedly called “Kool-Aid,” “chicken-eater “ and the N-word by his teammates. Howard, the ringleader, “also posted a confederate flag on the plaintiff’s computer and demanded he learn and recite a racist song titled “Moonman Notorious KKK,” KTVB reports.


Howard will avoid jail time for his offense, and will likely be able to have his conviction dismissed pending a successful completion of probation. Prosecutors recommend the rapist complete 300 hours of community service for his crime. As a condition of the plea, Howard is also able to maintain his innocence despite the evidence against him.

Deputy Attorney General Casey Hemmer’s said that while Howard’s behavior was “egregious,” it wasn’t a sex crime. “We don’t believe it’s appropriate for Mr. Howard to suffer the consequences of a sex offender,” Hemmer said. “But he still needs to be held accountable.”

The victim still has a $10 million civil lawsuit pending against the district for its “deliberate indifference” towards the victim’s safety.

“Mr. Howard is a relative of prominent individuals in the community and, at least in part due to his athletic ability and community connections, the Defendants ignored or were deliberately indifferent to the behavior of Mr. Howard which included aggression, taunting and bullying of The Plaintiff and other students in the District,” the civil lawsuit reads. “With deliberate indifference, the Defendants did nothing to curb the vicious acts of Mr. Howard who brought with him from Texas a culture of racial hatred towards the Plaintiff.”
Idaho teen football player walks free after sodomizing black disabled teammate with wire hanger

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BadKosh
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Jan 6, 2017, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Did you bother to follow the link and view the actual video where we can all see them saying these things out of their own mouths? Oh what am I thinking ... of course not.

OAW
AGAIN with your disconnect between what you thought someone wrote and the response.
( Last edited by BadKosh; Jan 6, 2017 at 12:39 PM. )
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 6, 2017, 12:21 PM
 
Badkosh, your post wasn't clear. The criminals in the first video clearly state f*** Trump etc. Then you ask Capt if he was a mindreader to know their reasoning, which implies you don't believe they said that. The disconnect is on you here.
     
BadKosh
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Jan 6, 2017, 12:42 PM
 
It was given that the guy did say these things. Capt should have made it a question about their "character".
     
subego
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Jan 6, 2017, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If you guys had hate crime laws like Europe, half your state governors, representatives, legislators, senators, congresspeople, cabinet and even your inbound President would probably be in jail. Not that that would be a bad thing.
Sounds positively enlightened, comrade.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jan 6, 2017, 02:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
So, you've talked to them and you trust what they said? Or is it more assuming you know the thoughts of others?
It was in the video. They did this because he was white and they presumed he was a Trump supporter, all made easier because he's unable to defend himself.
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OAW  (op)
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Jan 6, 2017, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
AGAIN with your disconnect between what you thought someone wrote and the response.
Riiiigggghhhhhtttt.

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Waragainstsleep
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Jan 7, 2017, 05:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Sounds positively enlightened, comrade.
I'm not fond of it tbh, its a slippery slope but thus far it hasn't really been abused once as far as I know. We've seen people locked up for drunkenly tweeting racist messages and no-one is concerned that that is a bad thing in itself. Including the perpetrator to a certain extent.

I guess its only a matter of time before someone tries to push it too far though.
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subego
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Jan 8, 2017, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I guess its only a matter of time before someone tries to push it too far though.
I don't generally go around calling things "regressive", but I'll pull it out when the subject at hand is whether thought crime is a concept which should be considered legitimate.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jan 8, 2017, 10:55 PM
 
I won't argue on this occasion. Protection of free speech is one thing where the US has well and truly beat when it comes to public perceptions. We just don't care enough about it.
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subego
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Jan 8, 2017, 11:17 PM
 
If it's just the U.K., add food to the list.

You have better cops tho.
     
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Jan 9, 2017, 12:12 AM
 
We get misrepresented when it comes to food. As I suspect do you.

Foods considered traditionally British don't have a great reputation among other countries because they are often considered bland, but we produce some excellent quality ingredients whether its Aberdeen Angus beef, Welsh lamb, various fish. Our bacon is superb if you've ever had the proper stuff. It really rivals any other. Our cheese is also outstanding. Even the French buy it nowadays.
Our beer has a reputation for being served too warm but this is typically incorrect. Proper bitter isn't supposed to be refrigerated too much anyway but our lagers are cold just like anyones. We have all the whisk(e)y.
We can't grow crops like you guys can. We don't have the space or the weather. Our tomatoes compared with Italian ones for example, well they don't tbh. Tomatoes need real sunshine. But our spuds are great, our onions are top notch too and there are plenty of other things we can grow. Sweetcorn isn't one of them. Fish and chips aside, our food lacks a really strong identity.

Spices don't really grow here naturally of course so our traditional fare does seem bland and sometimes dull to others. Lots of roast things and stews and casseroles. Dull but hearty and satisfying.
You guys have some amazing stuff by virtue of such mixed heritage. From a top quality burger to what I'm betting is near Italian quality pizza, to your Maine lobsters and Creole delights Texas BBQ etc etc. Too many to mention. You deserve to lose big points though for your insistence on using terrible plastic cheeses when you actually make a few decent ones, and various inappropriate things in cans. The aluminium and aerosol varieties.
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subego
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Jan 9, 2017, 12:56 PM
 
Last time I was there, which I'll admit was long ago, the problem wasn't bland, the problem was poor preparation. "Boiled to death" and "dry AF" were the rule.

Aerosol cheese has its place, and that place is on a Chicken in a Biskit.
     
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Jan 9, 2017, 10:05 PM
 
Aerosol cheese has a place as a makeshift wig replacement for President cheesehead. Thats it.
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subego
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Jan 10, 2017, 01:37 AM
 
I think the problem is the name. Don't think of it as cheese.
     
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Jan 10, 2017, 02:55 AM
 
@Waragainstsleep
I don't think there is dispute that some of the ingredients are good, you mentioned a few. But on average English do very little with it. Usually when I want to go out for food in the UK, I'm going to a “non-native” restaurant, e. g. Indian or Pakistani (I have a penchant for spicy food). There are a few countries for which food is essential to their cultures, in my experience within Europe that is Italy and France, and around the world I'd include Mexicans and Japanese. (The list is non-exhaustive, but I'm very well-travelled within Europe.) My Italian friends argue all the time about the “right” way to prepare certain dishes, or exchange local recipes.

Fortunately for all of us, inspired by what is possible young chefs in e. g. the UK, Denmark, Germany and so forth are trying to rectify that.
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Jan 10, 2017, 10:31 AM
 
This is a terrible chart, but what I THINK it is showing is that the UK is just behind the US in terms of Michelin stars.

Traditional British fare has it's place. I love me a good pie in a cozy pub by the fire. I would also add that Indian/Curry is pretty much a native British food at this point, much like Mexican in the US. I travel to India regularly for work and stay at some of the top hotels in the country (this is not a brag- a 5* hotel in Delhi is cheaper than a Marriott in London, NYC, or San Fran). The best meals I've had there are no rival to the best curries I've had at home. Much more flavourful and complex.

Out in the country, where I live, we do suffer from lack of variety, but not quality.

I'm constantly having to defend America and telling people here not to judge American cheese by Velveeta or American chocolate by Hersheys. Don't judge UK food by boiled beef and potatoes.
     
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Jan 10, 2017, 12:30 PM
 
Our traditional dishes are not the sort of food one goes to a specific restaurant to eat. We have great ingredients, but you can't eat cheese and bacon all the time.
We aren't the only ones though. Like you say, people go out to eat Italian, Indian, Chinese, Thai, Japanese, Mexican. To a lesser extent you might go out for something more exotic like Greek, Moroccan, Libyan, Ethiopian perhaps. Oddly you don't see so many French or Spanish restaurants outside of their native countries though there are a few I'm sure. You don't hear people say "I'm going out for German, Russian, Polish, Australian, Brazilian" etc. I;m sure all those countries have some great meals but I think traditional meals in any country are the ones based on native ingredients and species. Places where these are limited or dull, or just unfamiliar don't get so popular.

The one English tradition the world might learn to love one day is the Full English breakfast. Now there is a thing of beauty.
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subego
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Jan 10, 2017, 02:10 PM
 
I feel I should mention one of the best meals I've ever had was the tasting menu at Trump's restaurant in the Chicago Trump Tower.

It's one of the few I've had where it was less about coming up with ultra-sophisticated new tastes, and more about making near-perfect versions of more traditional fare.
     
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Jan 10, 2017, 02:12 PM
 
This is the strangest no offensive derail I've ever seen
     
subego
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Jan 10, 2017, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I travel to India regularly for work and stay at some of the top hotels in the country (this is not a brag- a 5* hotel in Delhi is cheaper than a Marriott in London, NYC, or San Fran). The best meals I've had there are no rival to the best curries I've had at home. Much more flavourful and complex.
My instincts tell me a hotel in India, even a really good one, is going to run into the problem where foreigners always orders curry, so they make it with the intent of pleasing the widest spread of palates possible.

I've got to imagine you can find hole-in-the-wall curry in India which gives the stuff in the U.K. a run.
( Last edited by subego; Jan 10, 2017 at 02:31 PM. )
     
Paco500
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Jan 10, 2017, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My instincts tell me a hotel in India, even a really good one, is going to run into the problem where foreigners always orders curry, so they make it with the intent of pleasing the widest spread of palates possible.

I've got to imagine you can find hole-in-the-wall curry in India which gives the stuff in the U.K. a run.
I am 100% sure you are correct- the best meals I've had in India are not in the hotel- or were not Indian (I have had some awesome Japanese and, oddly, pizza in India). I think the best curry restaurants in the UK have developed a style that is almost unique to Britain- much like the best tex-mex isn't really authentic Mexican. As I said above, the best curries in the UK seem to have more distinct and complex flavours- it's not about heat, I've had burn you butthole hot curries in both countries.

Actually, the best food I've eaten in India is at a place called the Farzi cafe- it's a chain that does fusion-Indian, they really play the the flavours and have created some amazing dishes. I'm really hopeful they come to England.

But my entire point was not to bash the food of India, it's to say the the UK has some amazing food traditions that came with immigrations- Indian and Caribbean being the standouts to my palate.
     
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Jan 10, 2017, 10:24 PM
 
Regarding French restaurants, I have to disagree, it's just that in my experience French restaurants are expensive. You can have terrific French food in Japan, which can be on par with French food in France according to a (French) person I trust on the issue. However, French have no equivalent of pizza, burritos and ramen.

You are right about other cuisines, and it is also true to some degree for even Japanese food which has spread around the world like wildfire. If you want to get some Japanese food that is not part of the export canon of sushi and ramen for the most part, you will have trouble finding it. It's not impossible, it is just equally hard to finding, say, Brazilian food. You are right, though, that most countries haven't been successful exporting their foods. So you are mostly dependent on the immigrant communities.

Regarding English breakfast, I have to say, I couldn't disagree more. The English breakfast I have had over the years was a really sad, pathetic affair. Canned beans, no proper variety amongst the sausages, etc. IMHO German and Austrian breakfast stand out worldwide in terms of variety and quality (of course, I'm partial here ). French and Italians don't have proper breakfasts, English have their breakfast, but in the German-speaking countries you have hundreds of types of bread and breakfast meats. German-style drip coffee is also very good, albeit a good espresso is still my favorite (which is unfortunately much harder to come by).
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Jan 11, 2017, 10:48 AM
 
Its certainly possible to screw up an English breakfast, but done right its excellent. Though canned baked beans are the only kind I know of.
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Jan 11, 2017, 11:37 AM
 
It is possible to bake them yourself. Soak beans overnight, rinse, throw in bean pot with onion, bacon, molasses, whatnot, put in low oven for 4-6 hours. #newengland
     
subego
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Jan 11, 2017, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
bean pot
Who won the last one?
     
subego
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Jan 11, 2017, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
it is just equally hard to finding, say, Brazilian food.
Got a Brazilian place around the corner.

For those wondering, it's interesting cuisine.

It pretends it's not Spanish, while at the same time unapologetically stealing from Latin America.

Not much corn though. Rice.
     
Paco500
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Jan 26, 2017, 05:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm not fond of it tbh, its a slippery slope but thus far it hasn't really been abused once as far as I know. We've seen people locked up for drunkenly tweeting racist messages and no-one is concerned that that is a bad thing in itself. Including the perpetrator to a certain extent.

I guess its only a matter of time before someone tries to push it too far though.
Coming from the outside, I kind of understand these laws. Many of those that enacted these laws saw first hand what could happen when 'thought crimes' became government policy.

To be clear, I'm saying I understand, not agree, with this stance.
     
   
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