[alligator]

How many of you pay for gas with a credit card and then do not press "yes" for a receipt? How is this any different than not taking a paper receipt from a store?

[stwain2003]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

If your hard drive fails, or your laptop gets stolen, their goes all your receipts. Nothing short of an atomic bomb is destroying mine.

...or a lighter?

EDIT: Chuckit beat me to it...

[philm]

Personally, I'd love a PDF receipt for everything. Set up a dedicated e-mail address for them and doing the accounts would be much easier. We're probably 10 years from that.

[Buckaroo]

When the banks can include your email address within your ATM or Credit Card, I believe that more people may be willing to trust pdf receipts.

[PB2K]

I gave it a second thought. It's a great idea and i think you can't avoid the paperless office, because eventually everything will be digital. I also started to hate the waste of quality paper for poor ideas

I'll try to implement it into our office too

[vmarks]

You know, this person charging for paper receipts isn't alone.

My bank bills for paper statements. ATT is always trying to get me to sign up for paperless bills.

And that's not all - some businesses now refuse to take cash as payment, despite the markings on the bills that it is good for all debts, public and private. Some cell providers charge a fee in order to take cash, FedEx refuses to be paid in cash.

It's frustrating, but it's happening.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

And that's not all - some businesses now refuse to take cash as payment, despite the markings on the bills that it is good for all debts, public and private.

My understanding of that phrase is that it means that the US Government will back the value of that bill regardless of the circumstances. So the seller knows that if they accept the cash that the US government guarantees the value of it (and in 'olden' days would be able to exchange the appropriate amount of gold/silver for it). But if it costs more for them to accept cash than it does for them to turn away cash only business then they're free to do so

[Mastrap]

It is technically illegal to refuse legal tender (cash) for services already rendered, though it is not illegal to refuse it for services not yet rendered. Therefore, a business that accepts only checks or credit must post a notice indicating this, so that the customer is aware of the fact prior to making payment. According to the "Legal Tender Statute" (section 5103 of title 31 of the U.S. Code), "United States coins and currency (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This means that all U.S. money, as identified above, when tendered to a creditor legally satisfies a debt to the extent of the amount (face value) tendered.

However, no federal law requires that a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services not yet provided. For example, a bus line may not allow payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. Some movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations as a matter of policy may refuse to accept large bills, such as above $20, and as long as there is a notice posted and a sale for goods or services has not already been completed, these businesses have not violated the legal tender law.

If the company has posted a notice about the new policy of only accepting money orders and credit/debit, they have fulfilled the requirement, and they are not required to accept cash for purchases. One advantage to the consumer in using a form of payment other than cash is that there will be a record of the payment made. For more information you can visit the Federal Reserve online.

link

[vmarks]

Whether or not a record exists may be an advantage or disadvantage.

I suspect the illegality of not accepting cash for services already rendered is what causes them to accept it, but charge a fee for accepting it.

[Dual Porpoise]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

My understanding of that phrase is that it means that the US Government will back the value of that bill regardless of the circumstances.

Yes, of course, these days that doesn't mean anything since the value of the bill isn't tied to anything concrete.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Working in the 2D animation business, we traditionally go through vast mountains of paper. I've seen the paperless office dream chased for years in this business. Up until recently, virtually every attempt was doomed before it had much of a chance.

Only recently has paperless really become a viable reality though- the company I work for has switched almost entirely to using Wacom Cintiqs for all the jobs that used to be straight up pencil and paper- such as storyboarding, character and prop design, background and color, and basic 2D animation (what little is still done stateside).

It so far hasn't completely eliminated the use of a lot of paper- storyboards for instance, are still printed out for reference and distribution, animation producers and directors are forever addicted to the simple post-it, and every time someone farts too loud, a paper memo goes out, but the digital tools have certainly reduced the amount of paper we use.

I can say first hand it's an awesome sight to walk into a studio supply office and see over 200 brand spankin' new 21"Cintiqs ready to be distributed to their lucky owners!

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Dual Porpoise 

Yes, of course, these days that doesn't mean anything since the value of the bill isn't tied to anything concrete.

As long as people are willing to work for it, and hand over the fruits of their labor forit, it's tied to the value of human labor. Which really makes a lot more sense than tying to to some shiny metal we dug out of the ground (except inasmuch as that shiny metal also represents the labor of mining, smelting, and casting gold).

[Doofy]

Note also, folks, that using paper is way more green than you've been led to believe.

Trees are carbon sink. And new trees suck a lot more carbon than old trees do.

[Dual Porpoise]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

As long as people are willing to work for it, and hand over the fruits of their labor forit, it's tied to the value of human labor. Which really makes a lot more sense than tying to to some shiny metal we dug out of the ground (except inasmuch as that shiny metal also represents the labor of mining, smelting, and casting gold).

Right, but the value of it is tied to what anyone else is willing to work for. There's no standard.

[freudling]

We all need competent Tablets to work with, then the paperless office will become common.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Dual Porpoise 

Right, but the value of it is tied to what anyone else is willing to work for. There's no standard.

Of course there's a standard. If I give you a dollar, you know pretty exactly how much you're going to be able to get for it. 'Dollars' are just a medium by which we represent and exchange the inherent value of our time/labor. The market decides the 'exchange rate' between two people (when I try and bill myself out at $100 per hour, but my client only wants to pay $50 per hour we negotiate to a compromise position and thus determine the value of my labor in that context).

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

It is technically illegal to refuse legal tender (cash) for services already rendered, though it is not illegal to refuse it for services not yet rendered. Therefore, a business that accepts only checks or credit must post a notice indicating this, so that the customer is aware of the fact prior to making payment. According to the "Legal Tender Statute" (section 5103 of title 31 of the U.S. Code), "United States coins and currency (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This means that all U.S. money, as identified above, when tendered to a creditor legally satisfies a debt to the extent of the amount (face value) tendered.

However, no federal law requires that a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services not yet provided. For example, a bus line may not allow payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. Some movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations as a matter of policy may refuse to accept large bills, such as above $20, and as long as there is a notice posted and a sale for goods or services has not already been completed, these businesses have not violated the legal tender law.

If the company has posted a notice about the new policy of only accepting money orders and credit/debit, they have fulfilled the requirement, and they are not required to accept cash for purchases. One advantage to the consumer in using a form of payment other than cash is that there will be a record of the payment made. For more information you can visit the Federal Reserve online.

link

The IRS doesn't accept cash, and supposedly I am overdue every year when I pay them. Seems like that would fit into the already rendered argument.

[tooki]

And what "service" or "good" has the IRS given you? None.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Note also, folks, that using paper is way more green than you've been led to believe.

Trees are carbon sink. And new trees suck a lot more carbon than old trees do.

This is a damn good point, if you ask me. If we got to a point where we quit using paper entirely in the United States, there would be a glut of trees. Sure we'd still use wood and whatnot, but if paper products were eradicated, it would make a serious difference in that sector of the economy - and the ecology of the US.

On the receipt issue (the OP), I'd be a little annoyed if I was charged for a paper receipt. They cost very little to generate. It'd be nice if I could go online, look at my bank account, and see itemized receipts of all my charges, but I suppose were at least a few years away from that kind of technology.

One majorly bad abuser of paper receipts is Fry's, as I learned on Friday night. When you return an item for store credit (e.g. a return that falls outside of their normal return policy), they print out two 8.5"x11" sheets with the return information on it. You sign one and keep the other - it's proof of your store credit. Then, when you go to use the store credit to complete a purchase, they print out two more sheets - one with the purchase details (like a regular receipt), and one confirming that you used up all your store credit.

It's a pretty ridiculous system. They have giftcards like everyone else - why don't they just use those for store credit (like every other store out there)?

And, WRT the whole paperless office concept - I'd be in a world of hurt if I was no longer allowed to print things out. I'm a web developer, so I do most of my work on a computer. However, a tabletPC just isn't a real replacement for being able to print out my database diagram or a customer's form mock-up and write on it or highlight parts of it. I even prefer to take notes on paper. I've used tabletPCs, and while they can be useful for some things, it's still a lot easier to be able to move pieces of paper around and organize my projects that way, instead of moving around "sheets" in a OneNote notebook.

If anything, I could see moving to electronic paper, where you can have multiple sheets that are reusable. Note-taking software just isn't going to cut it.

[angelmb]

What if the work relies on paper?, a paperless office wouldn't ever be feasible for e.g. graphic designers. See reason below.



You would spend if needed a sleepless night pondering and wondering about what paper-mill suits your work better, in spite of being ridiculed next morning by falling sleep while reading… blank sheets of paper

I wonder… would you actually prefer a car brochure as a soulless downloadable .pdf instead of the elegant paper?.

[freudling]

It will be feasible in the near future. I find it humorous to discuss the future with people because they more times than not cannot exit their current way of thinking and timespace.

Paperless offices will come, and no, it won't cause a "Trouble with Tribbles" effect... meaning, we won't be crowded with trees. Trees take decades to grow, and many die off at a young age. The only way we can keep up (and we don't) with deforestation at present is to replant clear cut areas. Tree planting is difficult, and replanted areas are not ready for cutting until at least 50 years after the fact.

I live in a area that is probably the most forested area on the planet, and I have worked in the bush in my younger years. I have seen the effects of deforestation and it is not pretty. We cut to build houses and make paper. I have been at paper mills and the amount of trees they use in a day is like the amount of blades of vegetation a cow ingests daily, except trees take decades to grow back, not weeks like grass.

At any rate, the appropriate tech will usher in paperless offices. For instance, surface computing, large touch screen panoramic displays, tablets, etc. Once this tech is integrated into our lives, there will be much less need for paper. Whether you envision synthetic paper with a stylus, or paper thin flexible LCDs that can wrap around any surface in an office, paper will become antiquated, replaced with digital solutions.

Currently, I work with PDFs for receipts, have a server that I can use multiple devices with, and work with a Newton MessagePad 2100 for note taking and day planning, as well as reading eBooks. I can annotate the books, mark pages, etc.

It certainly takes a commitment to do it, as others have said. I believe that it really is an all or none principle, you can't waver on being digital.

[starman]

It'll never happen. People want things in their hands to read, write on, scribble notes on.

[freudling]

Starman said:

"It'll never happen." It will happen, as will many other things that none of us will be able to understand nor predict.

[starman]

It.
Will.
Not.
Happen.

[ebuddy]

I'm often astounded by the use of paper these days. Not in a "OMG, another tree!" sort of way, but just how archaic and inefficient it is. I personally prefer to receive email confirmation numbers and receipts. There are so many means of storing data that a hard drive crash is not a valid reason to use paper IMO. Particularly in cases where you're working with rather large pieces of data. Search functionality alone is worth its weight in gold. I can understand special needs paper use, but I'm also surprised at the number of people still getting newspapers.

On the other hand, I'm often annoyed by people's use of excel for absolutely everything too so maybe it has nothing to do with paper at all. It's probably just me.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by starman 

It.
Will.
Not.
Happen.

It.
WIll.
Happen.

There, fixed™.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Whether you envision synthetic paper with a stylus, or paper thin flexible LCDs that can wrap around any surface in an office, paper will become antiquated, replaced with digital solutions.

That's the part that I think might allow us to move toward 100% paperless. At this point, things like tabletPCs don't really replace paper. With paper, I can sit at my desk and spread out my notes and diagrams and see lots of things at once and move things around and write on things.

Different people have different needs. Some people are really happy using eBook readers, while others still derive great pleasure from physically reading an actual book. That kind of enjoyment isn't likely to go away. There are still people today who much prefer vinyl to CD, even though vinyl is quite an archiac medium. There are still people who prefer fountain pens and inkwells to ball-point pens.

Unlike VHS vs. DVD, where VHS had no real advantage over DVD, I think there are still advantages to pen-and-paper that have yet to be equalled or surpassed by new technology. Perhaps it'll come, but there aren't even ideas or prototypes out there that can truly 100% replace paper, especially when it comes to the creative process.

[freudling]

but there aren't even ideas or prototypes out there that can truly 100% replace paper, especially when it comes to the creative process.

Actually, there are solutions that do just what you are referring to.

1. Microsoft Surface (have multiple items open, move them around, arrange them on a desktop surface, etc.)
2. Sony is working on digital paper (reusable plastic sheets that are input to with a stylus)
3. Flexible LCD being developed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U--l6jQWFck

[shifuimam]

I've already heard about Surface - we'll have to see what the other two turn out to be in production (and how much they cost).

The issue with Surface is that it's all on a contained, flat surface. I like to be able to pick up a sheet of notes from a meeting, lean back, and think about things without having to be hunched over a keyboard (or even my desk).

I'm just saying that when it comes to the creative process, individual sheets of tangible paper can make a difference. Whether or not digital paper can replace that is yet to be seen...and particularly whether or not it can universally outweigh the benefits of using pen-and-paper.

[starman]

Feeling a pen to paper really makes a difference. Hell, I even pick out the right kind of pen to use. I'm sure I'm not the only one. A paperless office means:

Tablets. Not going to happen soon.
Textured surfaces. Again, not going to happen soon.
Writing utensils. Your office is going to need to be filled with digital pens. Not going to happen soon.

Yes, it's a neat IDEA, but in reality, let's be serious. Do you REALLY think the entire printing market can go away overnight?

EDIT: I wouldn't even say 20 years.

[nonhuman]

I don't think tablets are the next step. As pretty much everyone here has said, they're not an adequate replacement for pen and paper. eInk, on the other hand, has potential I think. Flexible, touch-sensitive, low-power footprint eInk is here and getting better. I could see some sort of notebook (the paper kind) like cover that holds a number of eInk sheets that can be 'torn' out to be spread around your desk/table, and then put back in to charge/sync/whatever. That, for me, would probably be enough to abandon paper more or less entirely.

[starman]

Abandon paper? It's a NO-power solution. Who would want to abandon the simplest form of writing?

I only mentioned tablets in the sense of "the device office workers carry around like notebooks". I have a notebook at work, I couldn't fathom using a tablet in place of it.

Next time you write something down on a piece of paper, think to yourself that if it were a PAPERLESS office, and there was NO paper, how easy it would be to do what you were doing. I'm talking everything from taking a notebook to a meeting to writing down a phone number on a piece of scrap paper.

Also, you don't lose your work on paper unless it bursts into flame or water is dropped on it. What if you dropped your notebook? Would a tablet survive? What if the power goes out on a low-power device? Do you lose it all? Is there memory?

I don't think people here are really putting much thought into this.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by starman 

Abandon paper? It's a NO-power solution. Who would want to abandon the simplest form of writing?

Living more than walking distance from work? It's a NO-power solution. Who would want to abandon the simplest form of transportation?

Technology gives us the ability to extend beyond our natural abilities. The pencil/pen is one example of that. Computers and cars are others.

[starman]

I think there's a point where there's TOO much technology. Even as wired as I am, I prefer some analog things to digital.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by starman 

Feeling a pen to paper really makes a difference. Hell, I even pick out the right kind of pen to use. I'm sure I'm not the only one. A paperless office means:

Tablets. Not going to happen soon.
Textured surfaces. Again, not going to happen soon.
Writing utensils. Your office is going to need to be filled with digital pens. Not going to happen soon.

Yes, it's a neat IDEA, but in reality, let's be serious. Do you REALLY think the entire printing market can go away overnight?

EDIT: I wouldn't even say 20 years.

I don't think that's the idea of a paperless office. Of course paper is useful for sketching up ideas and taking notes and stuff, but in a paperless office there are no filing cabinets for filing essential paper documents.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't think that's the idea of a paperless office. Of course paper is useful for sketching up ideas and taking notes and stuff, but in a paperless office there are no filing cabinets for filing essential paper documents.

Now that I can get behind.

Here, we still have to print out our sick day and leave request forms, and take them around to the appropriate people to be signed. That's the kind of stuff that should all be in web forms by now.

As far as individuals taking notes and such, I would imagine it'll be a long, long time before that's completely paperless.

[starman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't think that's the idea of a paperless office. Of course paper is useful for sketching up ideas and taking notes and stuff, but in a paperless office there are no filing cabinets for filing essential paper documents.

That I agree with.

There's only one problem with that which I can see in the near future: legal signatures. If there's anything that needs a legal signature, it will probably be on paper for the near future. However, FORMS should go away. Completely. Adios.

[starman]

Thinking more about this:

I haven't had a hard drive crash in a VERY long time. The advantage of paper is that unless it gets set on fire or misplaced, you're not going to lose it. Paper doesn't crash. If it gets misplaced or destroyed, it's a user problem. With digital anything, you have to do backups, make sure some things are secure, keep it organized, make sure it's searchable. Now, the disadvantage of paper is that you can't search it. You can, however, organize it in such a way where it would make things easier to find.

For example: back in the days when Stuffit was relevant, I had a printed receipt of my purchase with the serial number. If I reinstalled Stuffit Deluxe, I knew exactly where the receipt was. It probably took less time to physically get the receipt and type in the serial number than to have the hard drive search for it.

Now, before you hit that reply button, I also didn't have many digital receipts at the time so my organization was crap. Also, there was no Spotlight back then. I haven't tried to see which would be faster today.

[Maflynn]

This paperless office, thing is just pie in the sky. There's too much at stake for many businesses not to rely on paper. Either making sure they have paper audit trails, contracts, or what not.

Regardless of some of the posters best wishes, its just not feasible. That's not to say we cannot reduce the paper output but eliminate it, no way.

I know enough people in the legal sector to understand that fact;. a law firm can easily deforest a small nation based on how much paper they churn out. There's no way that will ever go away.

[nonhuman]

Not feasible yet.

What's with all the pessimism about what we're capable of technologically? Why the assumption that we can't create a technology that meets and exceeds all the capabilities of paper? Sure it's probably not going to happen next year, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Not feasible yet

And so isn't flying cars, maybe be in the future they will be, but I'm not holding my breath for either. Big business, law firms, the government, small businesses, banks all rely on paper to do business. Maybe in another 100 years things will be different but not for the foreseeable future.

[starman]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Not feasible yet.

What's with all the pessimism about what we're capable of technologically? Why the assumption that we can't create a technology that meets and exceeds all the capabilities of paper? Sure it's probably not going to happen next year, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

And what's with people relying on technology for everything? Sometimes old fashioned items can do the job just as well, if not better.

Paper is never going away. Deal with that fact. You need it for so many OTHER things. Are we going to wipe our mouths with digital paper? Are we going to wipe our asses with digital paper? Are we going to wash windows and countertops with digital paper?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

(Ok, I totally stole that joke from ZP http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...tion/218-Spore)

[PB2K]

i did some research ..at my friends giant office (research institute) they use documentscanners to scan Every Document that enters the building, even mail. This way it's easier to start a new project and have all documents filed and organized. Though it can be difficult to add all the right metadata to find things, a big advantage is to have the ability to search documents digitally.

of course you will neeed a piece of paper very now and then, but the point is that digital files are easier to backup and forward.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by starman 

And what's with people relying on technology for everything? Sometimes old fashioned items can do the job just as well, if not better.

Paper is a technology... It replaced a number of poorer writing technologies.

Paper is never going away. Deal with that fact. You need it for so many OTHER things. Are we going to wipe our mouths with digital paper? Are we going to wipe our asses with digital paper? Are we going to wash windows and countertops with digital paper?

Who said that paper is going away? As you said there are plenty of uses for it. And even if we do have an electronic replacement for it that works for most people to replace paper, there will always be people who prefer to use paper, either because they prefer paper itself, or because it makes them look classy, or whatever.

Of course there are plenty of very good arguments for getting rid of toilet paper, not to mention more than adequate replacement technology that's also more sanitary and promotes better health and hygiene.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Of course there are plenty of very good arguments for getting rid of toilet paper, not to mention more than adequate replacement technology that's also more sanitary and promotes better health and hygiene.

No. Just no.

If you can't start the day with a clean botty, then where are you? Nowhere, that's where.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No. Just no.

If you can't start the day with a clean booty, then where are you? Nowhere, that's where.

Fixinated.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No. Just no.

If you can't start the day with a clean botty, then where are you? Nowhere, that's where.

That's what I'm saying. Why just smear it around when you can give it a proper wash?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by starman 

Feeling a pen to paper really makes a difference. Hell, I even pick out the right kind of pen to use. I'm sure I'm not the only one. A paperless office means:

Tablets. Not going to happen soon.
Textured surfaces. Again, not going to happen soon.
Writing utensils. Your office is going to need to be filled with digital pens. Not going to happen soon.

Yes, it's a neat IDEA, but in reality, let's be serious. Do you REALLY think the entire printing market can go away overnight?

EDIT: I wouldn't even say 20 years.

Starman, do you really think it will go away overnight? At least from my perspective, I never implied this: that would be foolish. Of course it takes time. All of those technologies will become perfected and cheap to manufacture. The flexible LCDs are particularly cheap to make... go do some research on it.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Not feasible yet.

What's with all the pessimism about what we're capable of technologically? Why the assumption that we can't create a technology that meets and exceeds all the capabilities of paper? Sure it's probably not going to happen next year, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

I have a paperless office.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by starman 

And what's with people relying on technology for everything? Sometimes old fashioned items can do the job just as well, if not better.

Paper is never going away. Deal with that fact. You need it for so many OTHER things. Are we going to wipe our mouths with digital paper? Are we going to wipe our asses with digital paper? Are we going to wash windows and countertops with digital paper?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

(Ok, I totally stole that joke from ZP http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...tion/218-Spore)

Paper is totally going away™.