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Steb Mad · Jun 24, 2003, 01:48 PM

With what I've seen, Finder seem to be a rewrite in Cocoa. What do you think?

P.S. it's needless to argue about Carbon and Cocoa being the same thing. They aren't

Developer · Jun 24, 2003, 02:04 PM

A Carbon Events an HIView based Carbon application is practically indistinguishable from a Cocoa application (except for minor things like the useless help cursor).

It's impossible to tell from the screenshots and the demo we have seen.

Steb Mad · Jun 24, 2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Developer:
A Carbon Events an HIView based Carbon application is practically indistinguishable from a Cocoa application (except for minor things like the useless help cursor).

It's impossible to tell from the screenshots and the demo we have seen.

Not really. Most people can identify the difference between a Carbon and Cocoa application. VektorChess is one of the great looking carbon app but it still doesn't feel like a cocoa app.

It's those minor things that count.

BTW, here's a graphic from Apple.com to support my theory on Finder being a rewrite in Cocoa:

foobars · Jun 24, 2003, 02:32 PM

How does that support your theroy? I really hope that the Finder goes Cocoa but given the fact that Apple's major metal apps are all Carbon ports I wouldnt get too hopeful.

Also, the action buttons behavior is just too weird for Cocoa.

kennethmac2000 · Jun 24, 2003, 02:40 PM

Some Cocoa behaviour is exceedingly un-Mac like.

For example, in a Cocoa app, opening the About box doesn't grey out the title bar of other windows behind it. That really looks inelegant.

Steb Mad · Jun 24, 2003, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by foobars:
How does that support your theroy?

"The all-new Finder.." part. If Apple want to completely change the Finder and the file system, it's easier to do a rewrite than hacking it. Maybe they're using Xcode to do this.

Originally posted by foobars:
I really hope that the Finder goes Cocoa but given the fact that Apple's major metal apps are all Carbon ports I wouldnt get too hopeful.

I'm not sure where you get that information from but most major metal apps are cocoa (some of them was rewritten from carbon to cocoa):

iPhoto
iMovie 3
iCal
Sherlock 3
iDVD
DVD Studio Pro

Quicktime and iTunes is the only two major carbon metal app left. iTunes won't get a rewrite anytime soon but Quicktime may.

JLL · Jun 24, 2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Some Cocoa behaviour is exceedingly un-Mac like.

For example, in a Cocoa app, opening the About box doesn't grey out the title bar of other windows behind it. That really looks inelegant.

You're talking about Carbon in 10.2 - who knows what changes there are in Carbon in 10.3.

Swedish MacNytt.com says it's Carbon btw.

absmiths · Jun 24, 2003, 03:20 PM

You need an answer "Who cares!", and one for "Poll originator has already made up his mind and only wants yes votes."

These polls are so dumb - what difference does it make what we think? The Finder is either Cocoa or Carbon, and I personally don't care.

dfiler · Jun 24, 2003, 03:22 PM

As a user, in the short-term, I couldn't care less. It's impossible to tell whether the finder development team would produce a better product with cocoa, carbon, or a mix of both. It all boils down to the specific code monkeys doing the grunt work and what they have the most experience with.

In the long run, I would prefer cocoa. It is more flexible and updates should require fewer development resources. Yet, even this assertion assumes that these gains outweigh the 15 years of experience their coders may have with Carbon.

Steb Mad · Jun 24, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by absmiths:
You need an answer "Who cares!", and one for "Poll originator has already made up his mind and only wants yes votes."

These polls are so dumb - what difference does it make what we think? The Finder is either Cocoa or Carbon, and I personally don't care.

You don't care but came in and read this thread anyway?

Yeah, make sense

a holck · Jun 24, 2003, 04:41 PM

The "new" finder is still mainly using the Carbon API.
Apple has shifted from PowerPlant to Interface Builder for the finder interface, so the windows are now .nib based.
I heard reports of sluggish performance and modalness still plauging the Finder. Some suggested that only the UI is new....

Skywalkers new Hand · Jun 24, 2003, 04:45 PM

I bet you it is Carbon.

Steb Mad · Jun 24, 2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
I bet you it is Carbon.

If it is still Carbon but with "Cocoa" interface like a holck said then I'll still be a happy man

a holck · Jun 24, 2003, 05:53 PM

I didnt say Cocoa interface...

Steb Mad · Jun 24, 2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by a holck:
I didnt say Cocoa interface...

I know you meant Interface Builder but I like to call it a Cocoa interface

Guy Incognito 2 · Jun 24, 2003, 06:56 PM

It's probably Cocoa...where are the developers with their free copy?

When Apple 'rewrites' they rewrite in Cocoa...sorry to burst people's Carbon bubble.

Why should some of you care? You don't need to. But I do! And that's all that counts.

moki · Jun 27, 2003, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
It's probably Cocoa...where are the developers with their free copy?

When Apple 'rewrites' they rewrite in Cocoa...sorry to burst people's Carbon bubble.

sorry to burst your bubble, but the Finder in Panther is a nib-based Carbon application.

And no, Carbon .nib's are not "Cocoa interface"

And yes, you still should not care whether it was written in Carbon or Cocoa. That you can't tell the difference is, well, telling.

Guy Incognito 2 · 07:00 AM

Originally posted by moki:
sorry to burst your bubble, but the Finder in Panther is a nib-based Carbon application.

And no, Carbon .nib's are not "Cocoa interface"

And yes, you still should not care whether it was written in Carbon or Cocoa. That you can't tell the difference is, well, telling.

The reason I don't know is because... *drum roll* ...I don't have Panther. *cymbal crash*

And don't tell me what I should and should not care about. I think there are more Carbon events than Cocoa events that still aren't re-entrant. Apparently the new Finder suffers from this. Drag a Finder window around and everything inside the Finder window will grind to a halt.

moki · Jun 27, 2003, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
I think there are more Carbon events than Cocoa events that still aren't re-entrant. Apparently the new Finder suffers from this. Drag a Finder window around and everything inside the Finder window will grin to a halt.

This has to do with threading, not carbon events or re-entrancy. And yes, they can thread it to not "grind to a halt" when a window is dragged in Carbon.

::shrug:: if you want to prefer a programming API, go for it, but it is relatively pointless unless you're the one programming the app.

JKT · Jun 27, 2003, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by moki:
sorry to burst your bubble, but the Finder in Panther is a nib-based Carbon application.

And no, Carbon .nib's are not "Cocoa interface"

And yes, you still should not care whether it was written in Carbon or Cocoa. That you can't tell the difference is, well, telling.

Um, we should still care if there are still significant UI differences between the two. I care that in Jaguar my Open/Save dialogues are worse (can't resize columns) in Carbon apps than they are in Cocoa ones, I care that Services are crippled in Carbon apps (e.g. weird 60 Service limit in the Finder that makes the Services menu stop functioning if you exceed that number), I care that the system wide spelling checker doesn't automatically function in Carbon apps, etc.

However, I really won't care if these kinds of things no longer apply in Panther and I sincerely hope they don't - any comments on this?

Guy Incognito 2 · Jun 27, 2003, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by JKT:
Um, we should still care if there are still significant UI differences between the two. I care that in Jaguar my Open/Save dialogues are worse (can't resize columns) in Carbon apps than they are in Cocoa ones, I care that Services are crippled in Carbon apps (e.g. weird 60 Service limit in the Finder that makes the Services menu stop functioning if you exceed that number), I care that the system wide spelling checker doesn't automatically function in Carbon apps, etc.

However, I really won't care if these kinds of things no longer apply in Panther and I sincerely hope they don't - any comments on this?

The Open/Save dialogues in Carbon are apparently the same or close to the same as Cocoa Open/Save dialogues. This is a huge deal for me. I'm glad Apple is closing the gap between the two frameworks.

Guy Incognito 2 · 07:20 AM

Originally posted by moki:
This has to do with threading, not carbon events or re-entrancy. And yes, they can thread it to not "grind to a halt" when a window is dragged in Carbon.

::shrug:: if you want to prefer a programming API, go for it, but it is relatively pointless unless you're the one programming the app.

Are you suggesting that the Finder team is clueless about threading and that even after a rewrite, they still have troubles getting it threaded properly? Why are most of the Cocoa Apple apps better threaded and the Carbon apps poorly threaded?

So far iTunes has threading problems, especially using the internet radio streams. DVD Player beachballs if you put in DVDs that it doesn't particularly like. And Finder, well...ya know...it's always had it's share of problems.

Granted most of these are probably fixed in Panther...or one would hope.

edit: oh yeah...QuickTime comes to mind to.

I'm sure Carbon is just as capable as Cocoa if not more capable...no one has proven it yet though...not even Apple.

I should care whether an app is Carbon or Cocoa. So far, more apps in the general area of tenfold have given me more trouble than Cocoa apps.

Chuckit · Jun 27, 2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
I'm sure Carbon is just as capable as Cocoa if not more capable...no one has proven it yet though...not even Apple.

Well, considering "Cocoa" appears to be winning the poll even though it's wrong, it looks like they have.

Moose · Jun 27, 2003, 08:08 AM

It's Carbon, kids.

Still linked against PowerPlant, too. Dunno how much of it it uses, though.

iNeusch · Jun 27, 2003, 08:12 AM

Cmoplete rewrite in Cocoa ? No way... bet it's still Carbon

Moose · Jun 27, 2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by iNeusch:
Cmoplete rewrite in Cocoa ? No way... bet it's still Carbon

It is.

otool -L does not lie.

iNeusch · Jun 27, 2003, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Moose:
It is.

otool -L does not lie.

don't have panther... yet

Adam Betts · Jun 27, 2003, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by moki:
And yes, you still should not care whether it was written in Carbon or Cocoa. That you can't tell the difference is, well, telling.

Then why did Apple let us know (at keynote) that they rewrote some of the apps to cocoa (ie: DVD Studio Pro, Sherlock, iMovie, etc)?

If it's not important, they wouldn't have brought it up

Originally posted by moki:
And no, Carbon .nib's are not "Cocoa interface"

Jeez, loosen up.. I said I like to call it a cocoa interface because it looks like one.

iFix Rene · Jun 27, 2003, 12:04 PM

the finder is still carbon

tikki · Jun 27, 2003, 12:14 PM

Well, if Finder is nib based we can turn off that evil Brushed Metal

iFix Rene · Jun 27, 2003, 01:07 PM

no that nib isnt there...

you can add brushed to 'about Finder', 'find'
dialogs etc, but the brushed look of Finderwindows is not in a nib

sahara · Jun 27, 2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by iFix Rene:
no that nib isnt there...

you can add brushed to 'about Finder', 'find'
dialogs etc, but the brushed look of Finderwindows is not in a nib

Alright, so how are we going to hack it?

There is a Finder.rsrc with PNG elements, might it be there? I gotta get rid of metal... hehe.

moki · Jun 27, 2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
I'm sure Carbon is just as capable as Cocoa if not more capable...no one has proven it yet though...not even Apple.

I should care whether an app is Carbon or Cocoa. So far, more apps in the general area of tenfold have given me more trouble than Cocoa apps.

No one? iTunes is the most loved and speedy iApp out there, and it is Carbon. Hell, it's even using PowerPlant.

People think Snapz Pro X is cocoa, but it isn't. Meanwhile many "rewritten in Cocoa" apps have sucked; look at QuicKeys.

I think you're generalizing a bit too much, but you're more than welcome to do that.

(he mutters, as he's about to release a Cocoa app)

moki · Jun 27, 2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by sahara:
Alright, so how are we going to hack it?
There is a Finder.rsrc with PNG elements, might it be there? I gotta get rid of metal... hehe.

If enough people complained about the Finder being metal, it is possible Apple would change it. I wish they would; I don't mind metal for apps that are meant to be appliances (Safari is a stretch), but the Finder doesn't make sense to me.

CheesePuff · Jun 27, 2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by moki:
If enough people complained about the Finder being metal, it is possible Apple would change it. I wish they would; I don't mind metal for apps that are meant to be appliances (Safari is a stretch), but the Finder doesn't make sense to me.

Apple changed Sherlock III from brushed metal to Aqua in Jaguar before it was released, and I'm sure it was from the major amount of people who complained about it.

JLL · Jun 27, 2003, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by CheesePuff:
Apple changed Sherlock III from brushed metal to Aqua in Jaguar before it was released, and I'm sure it was from the major amount of people who complained about it.

I don't think that was the case since (as far as I remember) Sherlock wasn't metal in any seeded build - only in screenshots on apple.com,

Michel Fortin · Jun 27, 2003, 08:24 PM

It's not that I don't like metal generally, but too much is too much... iCal, Safari and Finder with these it don't make sense. It's good in QuickTime, Calculator, maybe iTunes, but it's getting too much like there is a metal fever at Apple.

That's why I gave Apple some feedback last week. And I support anyone who do the same.

Developer · Jun 27, 2003, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Michel Fortin:
iCal, Safari and Finder with these it don't make sense.

Address Book makes the least sense I think. So will probably the new Font Book.

Catfish_Man · Jun 28, 2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Developer:
Address Book makes the least sense I think. So will probably the new Font Book.

No, those at least are duplicating real world objects (although their real world counterparts aren't metal). The Finder is

1) Not an 'appliance'
2) Not a real world object
3) Not interacting with real world objects (except for CDs, and that's a major stretch)

I can deal with Safari being metal, but the metal Finder definitely needs to go.

gralem · Jun 29, 2003, 12:17 AM

In demoing Xcode (particularly the distributed building environment), they actually showed the source for the finder. It is still carbon. I mean, I didn't read the source line-by-line, but there were no .m files in the source. The new finder is fast, but it is clearly still carbon.

I don't think it matters whether it is carbon or cocoa. And I think that was exactly what Apple wanted to show the developers--that Apple supports ongoing carbon development and that you can write very fast and very good apps in Carbon.

---gralem

Webscreamer · Jun 29, 2003, 02:15 PM

I can tell the difference between a Cocoa and Carbon application just from Buttons and Scroll Bar arrows...

I am God

Adam Betts · Jun 29, 2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Webscreamer:
I can tell the difference between a Cocoa and Carbon application just from Buttons and Scroll Bar arrows...

It's sad that moki can't tell the difference between them even though he's an experienced programmer

Webscreamer · Jun 29, 2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
It's sad that moki can't tell the difference between them even though he's an experienced programmer

very very easy

Find a pulsating button in an app, hold down and drag off... on Cocoa you can continue to drag off for about 5 pixels past the button till it turns gray. Carbon it will turn gray as soon as your off the button.

on the arrows of the scroll bars, hold down on the button arrow and the top like isn't completely straight in carbon..cocoa it is.

You have to try to see what I mean...

moki · Jul 1, 2003, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
It's sad that moki can't tell the difference between them even though he's an experienced programmer

I think someone has missed the point here...

Arkham_c · Jul 1, 2003, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Developer:
Address Book makes the least sense I think. So will probably the new Font Book.

I just wish Apple would make metal a global preference. Some people prefer aqua, some people prefer metal, but I couldn't imagine anyone thinks it's best to randomly mix them like Apple is doing now.

Eug Wanker · 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
I just wish Apple would make metal a global preference. Some people prefer aqua, some people prefer metal, but I couldn't imagine anyone thinks it's best to randomly mix them like Apple is doing now.

Options are good, but it looks like Apple is making a progression to 100% metal.

And, if I had to choose between pinstripe aqua and metal aqua, metal aqua would win every time. I'm an end user, not a developer, but to me pinstripe aqua is started to look a bit dated.

Personally I don't know what the big deal is. Having Panther give me Expose, more speed, a new Finder with a left icon column, integrated colour management, and fast user switching, and having my DVD-Rs from my Panasonic DVD recorder finally being compatible with Jaguar is WAY more important than the colour scheme of an app. (Don't get me wrong... I do consider a consistent colour scheme important, but given the state of some programs they could look like @ss (almost) and I'd still be happier if Apple just improved the usability (like with AppleWorks or whatever).)

Oh, and as an end user I couldn't care less if the program is Carbon or Cocoa, as long as it runs fast, has a fairly consistent and intuitive user interface, does what it is supposed to do, and is uber-stable. Indeed, my fave Apple app is iTunes. It is both brushed metal and Carbon.

My opinion as an end user...

Adam Betts · Jul 1, 2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by moki:
I think someone has missed the point here...

I don't understand why most carbon developers said that cocoa and carbon are the same thing but made zero effort into making their carbon app more cocoa-like (drawer, NSToolbar, Services menu, etc). The tools are there for developers to use but they didn't touch it.

I wonder why...