[gorgonzola]

If you had just said you wanted to clear up something about cut/paste and then posted the information instead of preemptively calling everyone on this board an ignorant moron, maybe you would have gotten a better response.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by eevyl:
I know it works, but from a GUI design point of view, the cut/copy/paste paradigm for files is just plain stupid.

veldmom, you can argue all you want but Apple will *NEVER* add cut/copy/paste feature in OS X, period. It's one of the worst Human Interface idea and it's bout to cause more confusion than two-buttons mouse will.

Then again, you'll ignore what everyone have to say because you're unwilling to change your opinion.

[veldmon]

Originally posted by eevyl:
Springloaded folders a poweruser technique?

Hehe you are the ignorant man.

The metaphor is just so right, grab and hold a document, navigate your folders and drop it when you arrive at the destination.

On the other side, push control-x to �cut? the document (oh it disappears!) and control-v to �paste? the document.

I know it works, but from a GUI design point of view, the cut/copy/paste paradigm for files is just plain stupid.

Spaniards who have trouble with English can properly be classified as ignorant, although that's a little harsh since learning a second language can be difficult, especially starting from an older age.

The power user technique is adding folders to your toolbar, making spring-loaded folder operations finish more quickly. Most accept the default configuration, just like every other OS user.

You're right though. If you follow the HIG, it makes perfect sense the way things operate currently. In terms of "cut/copy/paste", you missed the posts about renaming the terms to move away from the clipboard metaphor with text.

It's unfortunate that I have to keep repeating myself like Mimizuku no Lew. Some users just don't pay attention to the posts before them. I doubt it's community specific.

[veldmon]

Originally posted by gorgonzola:
If you had just said you wanted to clear up something about cut/paste and then posted the information instead of preemptively calling everyone on this board an ignorant moron, maybe you would have gotten a better response.

I know you're an authority figure, but please don't exaggerate my language. I never used the word "moron". "Ignorant" is a perfectly suitable word for "lacking knowledge". That is all I was trying to convey.

But like many others, you have attacked me instead of my argument...

[veldmon]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:


veldmom, you can argue all you want but Apple will *NEVER* add cut/copy/paste feature in OS X, period. It's one of the worst Human Interface idea and it's bout to cause more confusion than two-buttons mouse will.

Then again, you'll ignore what everyone have to say because you're unwilling to change your opinion.

Have you not read any posts in this thread, like the Spaniard? "cut/copy/paste" for files is not the metaphor I am advocating for the Mac. I would be rather happy to see it relegated to only text.

And Apple already has the copy/paste metaphor for files already implemented, so I'm not sure what you're really trying to say. Look in the edit menu of the Finder and you will see "copy" if you're confused.

I agree that the Windows implementation is flawed. "cut" doesn't mean the same thing for text and files. Fixing the language is all that is needed though. The functionality is fast and efficient.

[alexforsythe24]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:


veldmom, you can argue all you want but Apple will *NEVER* add cut/copy/paste feature in OS X, period. It's one of the worst Human Interface idea and it's bout to cause more confusion than two-buttons mouse will.

Then again, you'll ignore what everyone have to say because you're unwilling to change your opinion.

(SCARCASM)
Cause we all see what's a totally useless invention not metion a flop the 2 button mouse has been on the Mac.
(/SCARCASM)

Heck .. even Apple products support 2 buttons seamlessly.

[alexforsythe24]

Originally posted by veldmon:
Have you not read any posts in this thread, like the Spaniard? "cut/copy/paste" for files is not the metaphor I am advocating for the Mac. I would be rather happy to see it relegated to only text.

And Apple already has the copy/paste metaphor for files already implemented, so I'm not sure what you're really trying to say. Look in the edit menu of the Finder and you will see "copy" if you're confused.

I agree that the Windows implementation is flawed. "cut" doesn't mean the same thing for text and files. Fixing the language is all that is needed though. The functionality is fast and efficient.

Call it what you want .. make it better .. but I'm looking for the basic funcationality of what were calling cut/paste.

Apple has gone half way to implement the "bad metaphore" or copy/paste for files, why not go the whole way and add cut/paste too. Refine it, make it safter, call it something different, but don't go half way and stop.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by veldmon:
Have you not read any posts in this thread, like the Spaniard? "cut/copy/paste" for files is not the metaphor I am advocating for the Mac. I would be rather happy to see it relegated to only text.

And Apple already has the copy/paste metaphor for files already implemented, so I'm not sure what you're really trying to say. Look in the edit menu of the Finder and you will see "copy" if you're confused.

I agree that the Windows implementation is flawed. "cut" doesn't mean the same thing for text and files. Fixing the language is all that is needed though. The functionality is fast and efficient.

Apple would never add cut/paste feature for text either. If they does this, they'd have to do it for files too or it'll break the consistency.

[pimephalis]

Originally posted by veldmon:
Moving a file in Windows Explorer (Win 98, 2000, XP):

(fastest point-and-click method)

1. Navigate to folder with file-to-be-moved in it.
2. Right click file (brings up contextual menu).
3. Left click "cut" on contextual menu.
4. Navigate to new destination folder.
5. Right click on folder, or in folder.
6. Left click "paste" on contextual menu.

(done with only one Explorer window)



Moving a file in Finder (Icon view) (OS X):

(fastest point-and-click method)

1. Navigate to folder with file-to-be-moved in it.
2. Left click File menu.
3. Left click "New Finder Window".
4. In 2nd open Finder window, navigate to destination folder.
5. Adjust position of destination folder. (wasted time)
6. Adjust position of starting folder. (wasted time)
7. Drag file from starting folder to destination folder. (instead of simple mouse clicks, you have to constantly click,hold, & drag with mouse)

(required 2 Finder windows)




Cut/Paste paradigm explained (for ignorant/delusional Mac users):

- When you "cut" a file, the file itself is not physically removed from the hard drive and transfered to RAM.
- There is absolutely nothing "dangerous" that can happen to that file after you "cut" it. The file is still in the same folder even if you pull the cord to your computer before you are able "paste" the file.
- Unlike copy/paste, when you "paste" a file that has been "cut", the file itself is not moved on the physical hard drive, the only thing that changes is metadata about the file (its new folder location) for Windows.

**SNIP**

Hunh. I find this post, and all those that follow it, very interesting. Can someone explain to me why the heck when you're moving a folder or file from one directory to another the concepts of 'cut' or 'paste' need to be involved at all? You see, I've been using the following command:

'mv target destination'

That seems to beat your list of activities by a fair margin. Even presuming I haven't opened up the console yet, the total list of activities includes:

1. Open terminal (1 click, ~ 600 pixels of mouse movement)
2. typing 'mv target destination'

With tab completion, I hasard the following guess: I can do this and get on with work while you're still cutting, pasting and swearing at your computer.

But then, what the hell would I know.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by alexforsythe24:
(SCARCASM)
Cause we all see what's a totally useless invention not metion a flop the 2 button mouse has been on the Mac.
(/SCARCASM)

Heck .. even Apple products support 2 buttons seamlessly.

Apple Store - Input Devices

BTW, it's spelled sarcasm, not scarcasm.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by alexforsythe24:
Call it what you want .. make it better .. but I'm looking for the basic funcationality of what were calling cut/paste.

Apple has gone half way to implement the "bad metaphore" or copy/paste for files, why not go the whole way and add cut/paste too. Refine it, make it safter, call it something different, but don't go half way and stop.

Copy/Paste and Cut/Paste is a different thing.

Copy/Paste Files is not a "bad metaphore", it's there because they want to keep the consistency with text (a smart move).

[veldmon]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Apple would never add cut/paste feature for text either. If they does this, they'd have to do it for files too or it'll break the consistency.

If didn't know better I would say that you have never used OS X. If you want proof that Apple has already implemented cut/paste for text, open up TextEdit and select some text, cut it, and then paste it. It works like that across the whole system with text.

[veldmon]

Originally posted by pimephalis:
Hunh. I find this post, and all those that follow it, very interesting. Can someone explain to me why the heck when you're moving a folder or file from one directory to another the concepts of 'cut' or 'paste' need to be involved at all? You see, I've been using the following command:

'mv target destination'

That seems to beat your list of activities by a fair margin. Even presuming I haven't opened up the console yet, the total list of activities includes:

1. Open terminal (1 click, ~ 600 pixels of mouse movement)
2. typing 'mv target destination'

With tab completion, I hasard the following guess: I can do this and get on with work while you're still cutting, pasting and swearing at your computer.

But then, what the hell would I know.

Command-line is a different beast that has no baring on our GUI discussion. Your input is appreciated of course though.

[veldmon]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Copy/Paste and Cut/Paste is a different thing.

Copy/Paste Files is not a "bad metaphore", it's there because they want to keep the consistency with text (a smart move).

OS X does have cut/paste for text. Not to be hostile, but do you even own a Mac?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by veldmon:
Hyper-sensitivity is not a trait I share with you I'm afraid.

AAAAAAhahhahahha

I've known Lew for quite a long time. Hyper sensitivity isn't one of his traits.

He has been a long time member of the MacMonkey/Fubarforums forums.

You can't be hyper-sensitive and stay in there long I am afraid.

Lew has pretty thick skin.

I mean jeesh, the guy has tolerated my religious zealousness for about 3 years now.

Usually when Lew calls someone a jerk, which is rare, it's usually because said person is acting like one.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by veldmon:
OS X does have cut/paste for text.

Ok, I'm wrong.

[booboo]

I would like the functionality but agree the Clipboard metaphor is wrong for this.

Are we happy that it has been used to Copy/Paste files already?

I like the idea of Collect/Move with the option of seeing collected files on a 'shelf'.

Would we be happy with Option-Command X to 'Collect', and say Option-Command V to Move...?

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by veldmon:
I know you're an authority figure, but please don't exaggerate my language. I never used the word "moron".

From veldmon's first post:
I know the cut/paste concept is difficult for the blustering masses of Macheads that have never used, or refuse to see any good from, Windows.

Gee ... hard to fathom how anyone here could get the idea you think Mac users are stupid.

[LaGow]

Originally posted by pimephalis:
Hunh. I find this post, and all those that follow it, very interesting. Can someone explain to me why the heck when you're moving a folder or file from one directory to another the concepts of 'cut' or 'paste' need to be involved at all? You see, I've been using the following command:

'mv target destination'

Well, this is all so very esoteric, but one has to be careful with commands such as "mv" because any files involving resource forks (like many legacy fonts, for instance) get hosed. Works great for moving newer files and OS X apps around, though. Use it all the time.

Problem with Windows is they need that cut-and-paste thing because the way windows work--especially in XP--you can't very well move files around any other way. Windows in Windows are monstrous, klunky things that are time-consuming to resize. It's a lot easier to move a file around from window to window on the Mac by virtue of the fact that the windowing system is so much easier to use.

[eevyl]

Originally posted by veldmon:
Spaniards who have trouble with English can properly be classified as ignorant, although that's a little harsh since learning a second language can be difficult, especially starting from an older age.

Was necessary to start with this? Or is it an explanation of who can be classified as ignorant, for ignorant Spaniard Mac users?

[dfiler]

I think I'm dumber for having read veldmon's posts.
Why do we even click on these threads?

It would take on the order of 50 lines of code to implement CCP in the finder. It has been purposely left out. Yet, I don't think veldmon is interested in why it was left out.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by veldmon:
I agree that the Windows implementation is flawed. "cut" doesn't mean the same thing for text and files. Fixing the language is all that is needed though. The functionality is fast and efficient.

Well, since you seem to agree with us, maybe it's time to stop calling us morons...

[cowerd]

agree that the Windows implementation is flawed. "cut" doesn't mean the same thing for text and files. Fixing the language is all that is needed though. The functionality is fast and efficient.

Exactly. I propose we call "cut" for files pear tart and "cut" for text apple fritters. All those in favor respond by being moronic.

I am obviously in favor.

[alexforsythe24]

Originally posted by booboo:
I would like the functionality but agree the Clipboard metaphor is wrong for this.

Are we happy that it has been used to Copy/Paste files already?

I like the idea of Collect/Move with the option of seeing collected files on a 'shelf'.

Would we be happy with Option-Command X to 'Collect', and say Option-Command V to Move...?

That would work perfectly for me ... and I started this whole mess ...

those of us who want it, it's there, and it doesn't break anyones preconcieved notion of what cut and paste does ... nor does it share the same keystrokes.

Now just code it up Apple!

[alexforsythe24]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Well, since you seem to agree with us, maybe it's time to stop calling us morons...

No one should be insulting anyone else ... this discussion should have stayed in the orginal thread and kept civil and productive .

Love ...
Your Mom

[Deicide]

There is a shareware solution.

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/17735

[dfiler]

You started all this? Original thread?
Muaaa haaa haaa

Shhh... Don't tell anyone but I invented the wheel.

[OAW]

Originally posted by alexforsythe24:
Call it what you want .. make it better .. but I'm looking for the basic funcationality of what were calling cut/paste.

Apple has gone half way to implement the "bad metaphore" or copy/paste for files, why not go the whole way and add cut/paste too. Refine it, make it safter, call it something different, but don't go half way and stop.

Indeed. While I certainly recognize that the OP was flamebait, I agree that if you are going to do it then don't half-ass do it. A "cut-paste" functionality would be most convenient.

OAW

[RGB]

Originally posted by Jan Van Boghout:
If you are so inclined to use context menus, why don't you just:

- Right-click the file and select Copy
- Command-Delete original file
- Go to destination folder
- Paste File

I prefer drag and drop through spring-loaded folders by far, but you might prefer the context menu route

Can't do that, unfortunately

You cannot paste a file that has been moved to the trash, despite my best efforts.

Also:

Am I the only one here who keeps frequently used folders in my dock?

-Left click and hold on the file, drag to folder on dock.

There. One step. Just like using the toolbar too.

And in column view, if you're only moving a file back a directory no spring-loading is needed, just drag the file back one column. Quite easy.

[alex_kac]

Originally posted by SYN:
Spring Loaded Folders, especially in column view, allow this to be *way* faster that Windows. One shouldn't even try to compare. And this is true for all circumstances, including going up in the hierarchy. And you don't have to adjust any windows, dropping to a window in the background brings it to the front immediately.

All I use is column view. No way is it faster.

[alex_kac]

Originally posted by Chuckit:
"Resorting?" Why do we "resort" to the Shelf, while The Cut/Paste That Is Not Cut/Paste "makes perfect sense?"

Personally, I think your idea works best with the Shelf. Rather than Cut and Paste, you'd have an action to move files onto the Shelf and another to move them off. In this way, the Shelf becomes sort of a special pasteboard for files without being confused with an actual pasteboard or required to behave like one.

As long as it gets us to the same point - I'm all for it. I like this idea the best, however I'm pretty sure we'll never see it. As such, I still say Apple should provide cut/paste of files.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by alex_kac:
As long as it gets us to the same point - I'm all for it. I like this idea the best, however I'm pretty sure we'll never see it. As such, I still say Apple should provide cut/paste of files.

I you can copy/paste files. No problem.

You want to cut a file? cmd-delete.

[gorgonzola]

Originally posted by veldmon:
I know you're an authority figure, but please don't exaggerate my language. I never used the word "moron". "Ignorant" is a perfectly suitable word for "lacking knowledge". That is all I was trying to convey.

But like many others, you have attacked me instead of my argument...

I have no interest in participating in this discussion. The cut/paste paradigm does not interest me. What I did feel the need to point out was that the rudeness of your language marred an otherwise informative post. While it's true that you didn't use the specific word moron, you used language that was synonymous.

This semantic quibble is foolish. "Ignorant" may technically mean "lacking knowledge," but its connotation is different and closer to a word like "moron." A fool is technically one who lacks understanding. That doesn't mean that someone who misunderstood something would look kindly on being called a fool.

People responded with some irritation and anger because of the way you presented your information, and that's the point.

As an "authority figure," I'm suggesting a better and more neutral way of posting things like this, since you clearly have some valuable information to share. That is well within my rights and duties, so please do not dismiss my comments as personal attacks.

[kcmac]

Holy sh#t! I clicked on this thread earlier today when it was only several comments long. I can't believe it has ballooned to this. (I didn't bother reading much more as it was silly then.)

Come on powerbooks and Panther. Until something really happens again, are we going to be subjected to more discussions like this?

I think I'll go play on the highway now....

[Moose]

Originally posted by Nonsuch:
Gee ... hard to fathom how anyone here could get the idea you think Mac users are stupid.

Point of order:

He didn't say or imply that Mac users are stupid. He implied that the Mac users who think that everything that has to do with Windows is automatically bad by virtue of it being part of Windows are the ones who are stupid.

Sadly, this appears to make up a large portion of the userbase.

[ApeInTheShell]

Alex..

there is a slight difference in each of the posts.

You were asking if this feature would be a part of Mac OS X Panther. Your recieved much of the same response. It was happy time.

Veldmon is informing the mac audience that the Windows Explorer method is better than the current one in Mac OS X. Since he is determined to win the debate and stay on topic, Veldmon may deny the replies of 'ignorant mac users' as noted in an earlier post of mine.

This is a mac community. Unfortunetly, some of the users are inclined to take the side of Microsoft Windows. This cannot be good for the welfare of mac users. I implore Veldmon to consider drag and drop and what it can do for him.

[Zimphire]

MS has always had poor drag and drop support. Even in IE.

[Mac007]

I decided after reading the first post to try moving files myself and see just how difficult it was.

Here's how it went for me:

1. find file in OS 9 volume
2. copy file
3. locate place I want to paste it
4. paste it and I'm done (unless I want to delete the orginal which is just a matter of clicking on the file and hitting delete)

Seems pretty easy to me and it took maybe 2 seconds. Of course it would be even nicer if I could just tell the computer what to do and it then did it but I think we're still a few years from that.

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by alex_kac:
Adam, I expected more from you.

oh my god its your mother.

[Sven G]

Ehm... After reading all this - what's really wrong with cut & paste?!?

I can understand that the original post maybe was a little inflammatory: but, come on, Windows has had this very useful feature for years, and there still are such resistancies from a lot of people on the "Mac front" (whatever that means)! There are potentially better alternatives, of course (see something NeXTSTEP-like, for example) - but, until they are practically implemented in an OS-X-friendly way by Apple, the Windows cut & paste feature is a quite welcome - and really, really basic - one, IMHO...

[veldmon]

Recap:

- Some Mac users think the functionality to "cut" and "paste" (move) files in Windows Explorer uses the same functionality to "cut" and "paste" text in both OS X and Windows. That is incorrect (See OP).

Some Mac users believe it is perfectly reasonable for others to wrongly believe that, because otherwise it would be inconsistent to even use the words "cut" and "paste" to move files (since it doesn't use the clipboard metaphor or cut/paste text functionality in practice). I mildly agree. Still, the diehard few Mac users who think that to "cut" and "paste" (move) a file in Windows Explorer is "dangerous" are insane at this point. It's no more "dangerous" than dragging a file from one Finder window to another (it wouldn't be "dangerous" if similarly implemented in the Finder).

- Some Mac users are sensitive about the word "ignorant". They try to draw equivalency to the word "moron". That is futile and silly IMO.

Here's the point though, if to "copy" and "paste" files (not dragging, but from edit menu or contextual menu), that is implemented in OS X.1-present does not break the clipboard metaphor, than how does to "cut" and "paste" files break it? Because the copy/paste text functionality that is implemented in OS X does not use the same functionality as copy/paste files in OS X.

To back me up, I will quote David Pogue in Mac OS X The Missing Manual:

"Dragging icons to copy or move them may feel good, because it's so direct: You actually see your arrow cursor pushing the icons into the new location.

But you pay a price for this satisfying illusion: You may have to spend a moment or two fiddling with your windows so that you have a clear 'line of drag' between the icon to be moved and the destination folder.

There's a better way in Mac OS X 10.1 and later: For the first time on the Macintosh, you can use the Copy and Paste commands to move icons from one window into another. (Apple borrowed this idea from Windows, but that's OK; it's irresistible.)"

Why not borrow Cut and Paste commands if Copy and Paste doesn't break the HIG? (If Copy and Paste commands does break the HIG, then oh well, Apple implemented it anyways.)

[techtrucker]

In teaching and helping people with computers the one point of confusion that has been consistent has always been "where are my files?" I tried to talk someone through attaching a Word doc to an email, and they had no clue where that doc was. Microsoft started getting the right idea with the "My Documents" folder, with subfolders for pictures and music. And it appears that Panther is going to try and help in that regard with that pane on the left side of the Finder window. But trying to explain a folder heirarchy to a novice user is, well...
And for that matter the average user should never have to. Give them one place to put everything, and have all apps save everything there.

[MacGorilla]

This thread jumped the shark the first minute. I can't believe Kelly Hogan ain't in it.

[veldmon]

Originally posted by eevyl:
Was necessary to start with this? Or is it an explanation of who can be classified as ignorant, for ignorant Spaniard Mac users?

This might sound a little pretentious, but I did not notice you were from Spain before I saw your poor grammar. You are using "ignorant" in its most heinous form. To say the least, I have not once used it in such a manner. So no, I would never classify you as an ignorant Spaniard Mac user because you are a Spaniard Mac user. Totally unrelated.

[veldmon]

Originally posted by Mac007:
I decided after reading the first post to try moving files myself and see just how difficult it was.

Here's how it went for me:

1. find file in OS 9 volume
2. copy file
3. locate place I want to paste it
4. paste it and I'm done (unless I want to delete the orginal which is just a matter of clicking on the file and hitting delete)

Seems pretty easy to me and it took maybe 2 seconds. Of course it would be even nicer if I could just tell the computer what to do and it then did it but I think we're still a few years from that.

What happens when you want to move a file that is 200MB? It would be a huge waste of time to try and copy that file and then delete the source.

That's the real significance of copy vs. move. When you copy a file, the hard drive has to actually write the file out (after reading the original). When you move a file, the only data that needs to be changed is metadata about the files new location for the operating system. The hard drive doesn't actually have to write out the file again.

[ls -al]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Hitler or Nazi's yet. Ooops there I did it....

Now for Gorgonzola to invoke Goodwin's law and terminate this thread...

[JKT]

Good grief, can someone please close this thread - I think we can mostly agree that an option called "move/place" as opposed to cut/paste (that uses different key combos to those for cut/paste e.g. the option key modifier) would be a useful addition to the OS for those that prefer key commands to drag and drop. We can all agree that to call it copy/paste is not sensible owing to the way it breaks the standard usage for every other aspect where cut/paste is utilised. Is that a fair enough summary? Do we need to add anything more to this absurd thread?

[gralem]

Originally posted by veldmon:
Touche

That would be "Touch�", I believe. For you ignorant Winders users out there, there are other languages besides American. Other OSes easily allow you to type in the language of most european countries.

Let's pcik a language out of a hat. "French". A really cool French word to use in flame wars is "Touch�" (notice the accent on the final E).

This is created in OSX by holding the option key and then hitting the letter E. Then you let go of the option key and hit the letter E again. This gives you an accented E.

In windows, you would do something like open a book (waste of time). Then search through the book looking for the code for an accented E (more waste of time). Finally, you hold the ALT key and then type in the code for the accented character that you found in the book.

---gralem

[Lew]

Originally posted by gralem:
In windows, you would do something like open a book (waste of time). Then search through the book looking for the code for an accented E (more waste of time). Finally, you hold the ALT key and then type in the code for the accented character that you found in the book.

Or you could just type T-o-u-c-h then hold the AltGr key and press e like this: Touch�



(OK, so some of the other accented characters aren't so easily accessible on Windows. You just picked the wrong example )

[veldmon]

Originally posted by gralem:
That would be "Touch�", I believe. For you ignorant Winders users out there, there are other languages besides American. Other OSes easily allow you to type in the language of most european countries.

Let's pcik a language out of a hat. "French". A really cool French word to use in flame wars is "Touch�" (notice the accent on the final E).

This is created in OSX by holding the option key and then hitting the letter E. Then you let go of the option key and hit the letter E again. This gives you an accented E.

In windows, you would do something like open a book (waste of time). Then search through the book looking for the code for an accented E (more waste of time). Finally, you hold the ALT key and then type in the code for the accented character that you found in the book.

---gralem

You are correct my Malaysian friend. I typed that on Windows XP at the time. If I had been on OS X I would have used the Key Caps app to assist me. Thank you for your interesting perspective though. I will ignore your snide comment about America. There's no need for me to explain why my country is the best the world has ever seen.