[brainchild2b]

If you'd like to see the FTP in the finder fully functional and allow upload/download and permissions changes please sign here. I'm trying to petition Apple to get their head out of the sand.

Just put "I want it"

[Moonray]

Somehow your title suggests that signing 'here' would be all what's needed to get full FTP support, but we don't even know why Apple does not do it yet.

And ... where is 'here' btw?

-

[- - e r i k - -]

No petitionsonline?

Yeah, I want it. And no, it's not there yet in build 7b49

[nforcer]

FTP uploading is definitely something that needs to be incorporated into the Finder for 10.3. I was really disappointed FTP uploading was not present in 10.2 or any of its updates. It's a feature that would really make life easier for a lot of who use FTP on a regular, or even semi-regular basis.

There might be an argument that if Apple adds FTP uploading into the Finder, that they are going to harm 3rd party developers. Specifically, those developers that make FTP clients. Apple has to maintain a very special "boundary" with 3rd party developers.

But the fact of the matter is, when Apple implemented FTP browsing and downloading from the Finder, they already crossed that boundary. Technically, I don't think Apple implemented anything, as users have been able to upload files using the terminal for as long as X has been stable. Really, all Apple would be doing by adding uploading would be making FTP easier to manage by giving it a logical GUI. 3rd party developers could still have a more full-featured product to sell to those who need more advanced features.

With all of the networking features enhanced in 10.3 (better iDisk support and better Windows server support being the two most obvious) the Finder is really becoming a shell to manage not only files on your hard drive, but files across a network as well. FTP uploading from the Finder is just the next obvious step to keep OS X above the rest, and give the users what they want.

(If someone wants to use any of what I wrote for a petition, by all means go ahead)

[Gavin]

Originally posted by nforcer:

There might be an argument that if Apple adds FTP uploading into the Finder, that they are going to harm 3rd party developers. Specifically, those developers that make FTP clients. Apple has to maintain a very special "boundary" with 3rd party developers.

True, but I consider this argument irrelevant because all of the FTP clients for OSX suck. OK maybe not suck, but none measure up as great. They all crash, they all have odd bugs, none of them quite feels like a mac. Every one of them seems unfinished to me, even the ones that want money.

I want full FTP in the finder. It should work seamlessly just like another mounted drive or partition. I should be able to put an FTP folder in the dock and drop files on it.

I thought we were going to get this last year.

[Arkham_c]

Well, the bottom line is that Windows 2000 and Windows XP both have it, and it works flawlessly in those operating systems. I use it all the time at work to "mount" my iBook's ftp share on my Windows machine. We should be able to do the reverse just as easily.

Ideally, you could have it treat the ftp share just like a file system, and be able to navigate it in the Open/Save dialog boxes as if it were AppleShare or WebDAV. This would make tools like HyperEdit and Hydra a lot more useful.

[Moonray]

Maybe Apple wants first to write a .DS_Store-less Finder before they get the FTP upload working (no FTP site would be too happy about those files).

But it's time for both.

-

[brainchild2b]

Hey in one year of time, the amount of time since 10.2 release, you should be able to have a team of programmers write a good ftp client, intergrate it into the finder, and another team rewrite the file system...

Maybe I hold Apple to a higher standard, I could go with windows and drop my "high standards" hah I'd at least have ftp !

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Gavin:
True, but I consider this argument irrelevant because all of the FTP clients for OSX suck. OK maybe not suck, but none measure up as great. They all crash, they all have odd bugs, none of them quite feels like a mac. Every one of them seems unfinished to me, even the ones that want money.

Have you even used Transmit recently?

Anyway, the problem is that FTP does not behave like a filesystem, so any attempt to make it behave like one is going to be full of evil black magic.

[Moonray]

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
Hey in one year of time, the amount of time since 10.2 release, you should be able to have a team of programmers write a good ftp client, intergrate it into the finder, and another team rewrite the file system...

Maybe I hold Apple to a higher standard, I could go with windows and drop my "high standards" hah I'd at least have ftp !

You know ... both teams are terribly busy to put the finishing touches to the new sheet ("here is your receipt") effect.

-

[Moonray]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Have you even used Transmit recently?

Anyway, the problem is that FTP does not behave like a filesystem, so any attempt to make it behave like one is going to be full of evil black magic.

Yep, Microsoft got helped by the devil with their FTP integration. Makes now perfect sense to me, thanks for explaining.

-

[gralem]

boo-frickin'-hoo. ftp does work from finder. go to Applications->Utilities->Terminal.app

I go nuts when I see these 1-issue people.

EASY FIX:DON'T USE OSX! Write your own OS that works exactly the way you want it to.

Or find an OS that does 80-90% of what you want. Spend $15 on an FTP client you like.

I'm not able to compile java or objective-C programs from the finder (or any other source). I cannot gopher from the finder. I cannot check my iTunes music store account transactions from the finder. I cannot change the network time server settings from the finder.

I know--everyone thinks I'm just grouchy. No, I'm just realistic. Be happy with what you have. Find ways of doing what you need.

I'm not even going to touch the fact that ftp is an insecure protocol that should be avoided like the plague, but there is no SFTP/SCP client from the OSX finder either (unless you count Applications->Utilities->Terminal.app). OK...I touched it.

---gralem

[vsurfer]

I want it

[G0Ducks]

I don't get this. For ftp all I have to do is go to the "Go" menu, select connect to server, give the right info. I then get prompted by that server for the correct info (Login / Password) and...bingo! I am in

I also use RBrowserLite from time to time.

2 cents. One for the first, one for the last

Ryan

Originally posted by vsurfer:
I want it

[K++]

Originally posted by Gavin:
True, but I consider this argument irrelevant because all of the FTP clients for OSX suck. OK maybe not suck, but none measure up as great. They all crash, they all have odd bugs, none of them quite feels like a mac. Every one of them seems unfinished to me, even the ones that want money.

I want full FTP in the finder. It should work seamlessly just like another mounted drive or partition. I should be able to put an FTP folder in the dock and drop files on it.

I thought we were going to get this last year.

What are you smoking? Transmit is amazingly great. i have been using it since OS 9 and with its complete Cocoa rewrite with an ncftp core it is the single most powerful FTP client available for the mac.

As to why Apple won't finish FTP support, its simple. Because everything Apple does, they do it TOO well. If apple added upload why would you bother with a third party client? How many ftp servers do you know that use SFTP or Kerberos authenticaion or Pam authentication. How many FTP servers use any of these special plugins? I would say about 1%, so basically Apple sucks up 90% of the market for FTP clients. If you think there would still be space for third party apps, look at iTunes. Since OS X have you sued anythign else for your MP3s? Have you tried anythign else, if so have they matched up to Apple's offering?

Basically, so far Apple has chosen not to complete its FTP support in order to support its developers. If we look at Panic, makers of Transmit, they have two main products Audion, and Transmit. I already discussed MP3 players, as for Candybar and pixadex those were developed for The Iconfactory so arent really Panix products in the realest sense of ownership.

[besson3c]

Just for the sake of providing balance to this argument, let me repeat my points from another thread, if I may....

I think FTP is a crappy standard, and based on obsolete technology. I would much rather Apple implement sFTP in the Finder than FTP.

While an argument can be made for increasing accessibility by providing this feature (although there are many other clients which provide FTP), I'm really not interested in any technology where my password is passed in the clear. Apple should push the better standard: sFTP.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by gralem:
boo-frickin'-hoo. ftp does work from finder. go to Applications->Utilities->Terminal.app

Yeah having a GUI choice is bad!

*sigh*

I know--everyone thinks I'm just grouchy. No, I'm just realistic. Be happy with what you have. Find ways of doing what you need.

Sounds like grouchiness to me.

[Gavin]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Have you even used Transmit recently?

Yup, tried it. captin FTP is similar; I don't like the double window thing, it doesn't let me see enough of the file system at a time . I tend to use rbrowser - the column view lets you move around quickly. And I've been giving cyberduck a try.

Anyway, the problem is that FTP does not behave like a filesystem, so any attempt to make it behave like one is going to be full of evil black magic.

Sure, but it's definitely possible. The system underlying the finder is the same series of commands that FTP uses. ls, cd, mv, etc.

WebDAV is very different yet iDisk works just like the finder. OK, it's A Little Slow (TM) but FTP and WebDAV hold thier connections differently, FTP would be snappier.

Actually FTP already works, they just need upload.

Originally posted by K++

What are you smoking? Transmit is amazingly great. i have been using it since OS 9 and with its complete Cocoa rewrite with an ncftp core it is the single most powerful FTP client available for the mac.

Well, whoopty frickin do!

Glad you like it. I upload lots of files to lots of different places in the file tree. Transmit's one folder in view at a time style interface just doesn't work for what I need to do.

The finder on the other hand is perfect for what I need to do. With 2 windows set to list view I can haul ass. Sure there are other clients that can do list or column view but they have other things that bug me.

We are really just talking about managing files, dragging an icon into another window. How and where it gets moved is simply another component. So why should I need whole other tool just for one of many protocols?
Apple File Sharing, SMB, NFS and WebDAV all fully integrate with the finder. Why not FTP?
When looked at it this way there is nothing Transmit does that the finder doesn't do.

Of course it should handle scp and sftp as well.

If apple added upload why would you bother with a third party client?

Exactly.

I'm not going to cry over a company that writes a program for a niche that was doomed from the beginning. At the very least a GUI front end to a built-in UNIX tool is going to show up for free at source forge - already has. Seriously, making stuff that has a cool skull on it is great and all but if they want to make real money and advance the Mac as a platform they should take their interface design skills and cocoa knowledge and have a go at something that has a future. An easy example would be business software that currently can't be found for the mac. Financial Analysis, Real Estate, Point of Sale, Inventory Management, Engineering, Data Integration. Thousands of businesses pay hundreds of dollars a pop for half-assed stuff on windows. There is a lot of interest in the mac right now but the software needed just isn't there to allow offices to switch. So maybe loosing transmit will be the kick in the butt these guys need to make some real money.

Ha, you've got me sounding like a crotchety old man;
"Those youngsters should stop wasting their time selling t-shirts for fun and use their talent in a real venture". I don't really want to sound like a d1ck because doing something you love is what everyone wants to do and that's cool, but business is a b1tch and sometimes you get eaten.

If apple wants to support its developers maybe it should commission small outfits to write software that actually grows the platform. Just like they came up with keynote which is something they use and that other businesses need they could hire out other ubiquitous software needs. Billing, fleet management, postage, group ware, asset management, whatever. The mac should have off the shelf software for everything. That would easily outweigh pissing off 3 guys who provide a tool that should be included.

I should say that Panic does make good software, I really know nothing about their business, and bear then no ill will at all. They just kind of got tossed in as an example in an innocent bystander kind of way.

[K++]

Originally posted by Gavin:
Yup, tried it. captin FTP is similar; I don't like the double window thing, it doesn't let me see enough of the file system at a time . I tend to use rbrowser - the column view lets you move around quickly. And I've been giving cyberduck a try.

Glad you like it. I upload lots of files to lots of different places in the file tree. Transmit's one folder in view at a time style interface just doesn't work for what I need to do.

The finder on the other hand is perfect for what I need to do. With 2 windows set to list view I can haul ass. Sure there are other clients that can do list or column view but they have other things that bug me.

We are really just talking about managing files, dragging an icon into another window. How and where it gets moved is simply another component. So why should I need whole other tool just for one of many protocols?
Apple File Sharing, SMB, NFS and WebDAV all fully integrate with the finder. Why not FTP?
When looked at it this way there is nothing Transmit does that the finder doesn't do.

Of course it should handle scp and sftp as well.



Exactly.

I'm not going to cry over a company that writes a program for a niche that was doomed from the beginning. At the very least a GUI front end to a built-in UNIX tool is going to show up for free at source forge - already has. Seriously, making stuff that has a cool skull on it is great and all but if they want to make real money and advance the Mac as a platform they should take their interface design skills and cocoa knowledge and have a go at something that has a future. An easy example would be business software that currently can't be found for the mac. Financial Analysis, Real Estate, Point of Sale, Inventory Management, Engineering, Data Integration. Thousands of businesses pay hundreds of dollars a pop for half-assed stuff on windows. There is a lot of interest in the mac right now but the software needed just isn't there to allow offices to switch. So maybe loosing transmit will be the kick in the butt these guys need to make some real money.

Ha, you've got me sounding like a crotchety old man;
"Those youngsters should stop wasting their time selling t-shirts for fun and use their talent in a real venture". I don't really want to sound like a d1ck because doing something you love is what everyone wants to do and that's cool, but business is a b1tch and sometimes you get eaten.

If apple wants to support its developers maybe it should commission small outfits to write software that actually grows the platform. Just like they came up with keynote which is something they use and that other businesses need they could hire out other ubiquitous software needs. Billing, fleet management, postage, group ware, asset management, whatever. The mac should have off the shelf software for everything. That would easily outweigh pissing off 3 guys who provide a tool that should be included.

Here is the thing about Good software like Transmit. It is well designed and FLEXIBLE. You don't like the dual window view? Turn it off. You upload several things to several different places? Transmit as a built in queue system, and uses multiple connctions when necessary. Transmit also support multiple windows. It has support for Drag and Drop from the Finder. What you want is a FREE good FTP client.

Because lets face it all those free ones have thier problems. Transmit is flawless and costs money, too much of a trade-off for you eh?

You even want scp and sftp support, don't you see that if Apple started bundling everything in thier OS there would be no developers. Large develpers can do other things, small developers would be forced to close. Example is Casady and Greene, Apple took SoundJam from them and they never made a real comeback with a product that could have kept them afloat.

you say Apple should commision developers, why? Developers should come to the platform because they see the money making opportunity. As for the Keynote example, why would I get powerPoint since it even boasts file compatibility.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by gralem:
boo-frickin'-hoo. ftp does work from finder. go to Applications->Utilities->Terminal.app

Not everyone knows how to use a terminal, well I actually even think that it's just a very small percentage of mac users knows how to use it. And I second what Zimph said.

[jokell82]

For all of you that want sFTP:
http://rsug.itd.umich.edu/software/fugu/

[gorgonzola]

Well, it's not so much an issue of whether or not Apple should put upload functionality in because of third party developers or whatever, it's that right now, if you try doing it, it'll just hang the Finder.

If they're not going to allow upload functionality, do it properly. Lock it off and mount the volumes read-only. No matter what they decide, those hangs and stuff should go away, no?

[Moonray]

Originally posted by besson3c:
Just for the sake of providing balance to this argument, let me repeat my points from another thread, if I may....

I think FTP is a crappy standard, and based on obsolete technology. I would much rather Apple implement sFTP in the Finder than FTP.

While an argument can be made for increasing accessibility by providing this feature (although there are many other clients which provide FTP), I'm really not interested in any technology where my password is passed in the clear. Apple should push the better standard: sFTP.

If you look around a bit on the internet you might notice that most FTP servers are still normal FTP servers. That your password is transferred without encryption is not state of the art maybe but still the common thing and it does not mean that everyone can get it. A FTP account is not your bank where you password protect your millions but something where files are stored.
So lets first implement FTP because that is what people use, and then encrypted FTP to play with.

-

[besson3c]

Originally posted by Moonray:
If you look around a bit on the internet you might notice that most FTP servers are still normal FTP servers. That your password is transferred without encryption is not state of the art maybe but still the common thing and it does not mean that everyone can get it. A FTP account is not your bank where you password protect your millions but something where files are stored.
So lets first implement FTP because that is what people use, and then encrypted FTP to play with.

-

I would be willing to bet that most people with private FTP servers use their same password as they use for everything else. I know that most people are very lazy about being creative about passwords.

So, an FTP account is not a bank, but chances are if you get hold of somebody's FTP password, you could still cause a world of hurt.

[Gavin]

Originally posted by K++:
Here is the thing about Good software like Transmit. It is well designed and FLEXIBLE. You don't like the dual window view? Turn it off. You upload several things to several different places? Transmit as a built in queue system, and uses multiple connctions when necessary. Transmit also support multiple windows. It has support for Drag and Drop from the Finder.

Really? You mean just like every other FTP client? Cool!



What you want is a FREE good FTP client.
Because lets face it all those free ones have thier problems. Transmit is flawless and costs money, too much of a trade-off for you eh?


Hardly.
I find it interesting that you don't take me at my word when I say that I have tried it and it does not suit my needs. This suggests some deep seated trust issues. Tell me about your relationship with your mother...

You even want scp and sftp support,

Might as well do it right!


don't you see that if Apple started bundling everything in thier OS there would be no developers. Large develpers can do other things, small developers would be forced to close. Example is Casady and Greene, Apple took SoundJam from them and they never made a real comeback with a product that could have kept them afloat.


Don't -you- see that FTP is a standard component of a UNIX system and that apple already implemented 90% of it in the finder. Finishing the job in no way constitutes 'bundling everything'.

Sure, lots of people have a beef with Apple over 'preditory bundleing' with regards to the mutlimedia iApps but FTP is a different animal.


you say Apple should commision developers, why?

No, I'm just floating it as an interesting idea for a company that is working hard to expand its market share. The hardware and OS are in place, now they need to go after expanding the mac's software universe. Apple could be proactive in getting other companies to fill the holes. I'm sure there are lots of clever ways to give that a push.

Developers should come to the platform because they see the money making opportunity.

Agreed, but new businesses need funding. Apple could use this fact to shape the Mac's available product mix with an eye towards gaining business switchers.

It doesn't have to be apple, a private venture capital group could supply start up money for companies that produce software that fills certain niches.

As for the Keynote example, why would I get powerPoint since it even boasts file compatibility.

Exactly, and if apple had subcontracted it then then a new small company would have a good business while having it's development costs covered. And it is one more reason not to stay with windows.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Gavin:
Sure, but it's definitely possible. The system underlying the finder is the same series of commands that FTP uses. ls, cd, mv, etc.

FTP doesn't support everything a disk-based filesystem does. Open a 5mb file from a server. Modify a single byte in the middle of it. How do you save? With FTP, you have to re-upload the entire thing, and doing that safely and easily is going to be a pain.

WebDAV is very different yet iDisk works just like the finder. OK, it's A Little Slow (TM) but FTP and WebDAV hold thier connections differently, FTP would be snappier.

AFAIK WebDAV is more fully-featured as a FS than FTP is.

I'm not saying that it's impossible, I'm just saying that it's hard, and getting it to work as the user expects a filesystem not an easy problem. I have no idea how the WinXP or wahtever implementation works, perhaps they've solved it, perhaps it's just an ugly hack and works really quirky-like (wouldn't surprise me).

And before anybody accuses me of being a rabid Apple supporter blindly following what they do as the One True Way, I'd like to shut them up and tell them I'm merely pointing out that there are technical difficulties with implementing it using the OS X filesystem architecture. I have no doubt it will be done, but it will take time. And write is more difficult than read.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by K++:
Transmit is flawless and costs money, too much of a trade-off for you eh?

It' not flawless, it crashes everytime my server disconnects me (my ISP's servers suck a lot).

[THE MAC GOD]

FULL FTP'ing should be standard in X.3. PERIOD. Don't incorporate SOME of it if you aren't going to make it work.