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starman · Oct 6, 2005, 01:18 PM

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...9074_tc024.htm

This is a VERY interesting read.

To sum up:

Sony wins
MS loses

6 of the 7 major studios are on board with Blu-Ray.

30 million PS3's are expected to be released next year which would help saturate the market.

Mike

Eug Wanker · Oct 6, 2005, 01:37 PM

Meh. Why start a new thread?

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=235201

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 6, 2005, 01:44 PM

At this point I cannot see one reason why or how HD DVD would win. Blu-ray is going to clean up JUST with the PS3.

"The public attack may have backfired. One day after Microsoft talked up the importance of Toshiba's ability to hit the market first with its standard, Toshiba announced it would delay rolling out its own HD DVD players until after the holidays. Sony's Blu-ray-equipped PlayStations are scheduled to go on sale early next year, too. The same day, Yoshihide Fujii, Toshiba's corporate senior vice-president for digital media products, said the company remained open to creating a single format"

goMac · Oct 6, 2005, 02:20 PM

If Bluray won't let me copy my movies to my hard drive and portable devices like HDDVD does I won't buy it. Plain and simple.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 6, 2005, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

If Bluray won't let me copy my movies to my hard drive and portable devices like HDDVD does I won't buy it. Plain and simple.

You can't with DVD's legally either and that didn't stop a single person from buying it. DVD's were the fastest adapted consumer electronics device of all time.

goMac · Oct 6, 2005, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

You can't with DVD's legally either and that didn't stop a single person from buying it. DVD's were the fastest adapted consumer electronics device of all time.

You can do it with HDDVD.

Apple needs a way to move movies off of DVD to move to a video iPod and also into iTunes. Intel has thrown their support in for HDDVD and also announced that they created technology with the HDDVD group to let you take your HDDVD movies and move them other places. Apple has switched to Intel. Apple is also known to like ripping things for digital management. Connect the dots.

Over this war is not.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 6, 2005, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Apple has switched to Intel. Apple is also known to like ripping things for digital management. Connect the dots.

Over this war is not.

Apple also have announced support for Blu-Ray not HD-DVD

Eug Wanker · Oct 6, 2005, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

Apple also have announced support for Blu-Ray not HD-DVD

I'm sure they'll support both. The officially backed Blu-Ray, yet their software (DVD Studio Pro & DVD Player) already supports HD-DVD (on DVD).

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 6, 2005, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I'm sure they'll support both. The officially backed Blu-Ray, yet their software (DVD Studio Pro & DVD Player) already supports HD-DVD (on DVD).

Remember how long it took them to support DVD +R?

goMac · Oct 6, 2005, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

Apple also have announced support for Blu-Ray not HD-DVD

And we all know Apple could never change their minds post-Intel switch. After all we saw the movie studios were incapable of changing their minds.

Oh wait...

Eug Wanker · Oct 6, 2005, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

Remember how long it took them to support DVD +R?

Yeah, but like I said, their software already supports HD-DVD. You can burn (on DVD media for now) a high definition H.264 DVD Studio Pro project today that will play on the prototype HD-DVD players.

Ironically, Apple has no current support for Blu-Ray at all.

goMac · Oct 6, 2005, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

Yeah, but like I said, their software already supports HD-DVD. You can burn (on DVD media for now) a high definition H.264 DVD Studio Pro project today that will play on the prototype HD-DVD players.

Ironically, Apple has no current support for Blu-Ray at all.

And with the switch to Intel they have all the hardware too.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 6, 2005, 07:07 PM

Blu ray shipping March:

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000710062178/

goMac · Oct 6, 2005, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

Blu ray shipping March:

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000710062178/

It still doesn't allow fair use and locks the user down leaving them unable to take their movies with them. Because HD-DVD does let me put my movies where ever I want them, that is the format I will be supporting. I think for this reason Bluray won't go well with computer makers who are interested in the next generation of video. Microsoft and Intel have been wise in embracing HD-DVD. At the very least, users of Windows Media Centers will be able to move their HD-DVD's to their hard drives and stream them to places in the house. Bluray users won't be able to do that.

PurpleGiant · Oct 6, 2005, 07:23 PM

That is assuming that HD-DVDs are still being made in a few years. If one format truly wins over another, the ability to copy HD-DVDs isn't much use to you without any movies to purchase on HD-DVD.

residentEvil · Oct 6, 2005, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

It still doesn't allow fair use and locks the user down leaving them unable to take their movies with them. Because HD-DVD does let me put my movies where ever I want them, that is the format I will be supporting. I think for this reason Bluray won't go well with computer makers who are interested in the next generation of video. Microsoft and Intel have been wise in embracing HD-DVD. At the very least, users of Windows Media Centers will be able to move their HD-DVD's to their hard drives and stream them to places in the house. Bluray users won't be able to do that.

so, you have a house full of home theaters and you want just one source to play it all over? no, most HT types have one (sometimes two) and watch in a controlled environment. stream to other computers/why? the point of HD movie content is to make a feeling of a theater and enjoying the movie/content at its fullest. not streaming it to 4 computers and 3 tvs just because it is what you think your right is for the content. you are giving an example that isn't needed/wanted from the content.

or are you using your example to say you want all your movies on a hard drive(s) so you don't have to mess with the media?

or are you saying you want to send the HD movie content to many sources at the same time? why? many people in the house have HD tvs and want to watch the same movie at the same time?

or do you want the same feeling as cable/satellite and can have the same thing on all your TVs at once?

again, your example of needing to stream it all over the house is not a valid concern for the HT user.

goMac · Oct 6, 2005, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by residentEvil

so, you have a house full of home theaters and you want just one source to play it all over? no, most HT types have one (sometimes two) and watch in a controlled environment. stream to other computers/why? the point of HD movie content is to make a feeling of a theater and enjoying the movie/content at its fullest. not streaming it to 4 computers and 3 tvs just because it is what you think your right is for the content. you are giving an example that isn't needed/wanted from the content.

or are you using your example to say you want all your movies on a hard drive(s) so you don't have to mess with the media?

or are you saying you want to send the HD movie content to many sources at the same time? why? many people in the house have HD tvs and want to watch the same movie at the same time?

or do you want the same feeling as cable/satellite and can have the same thing on all your TVs at once?

again, your example of needing to stream it all over the house is not a valid concern for the HT user.

I'm saying HD-DVD movies can be imported onto a computer. I could watch an HDDVD movie off a laptop by storing it in iTunes, and I don't need the original media with me. I can stream it where I want it, I can load it onto a PSP or something like say... a video iPod.

Bluray doesn't support this. I wouldn't be surprised to see them lock it down more.

CharlesS · Oct 6, 2005, 08:12 PM

Thing is, we're talking 30-50 GB here. How many of those could you even fit on your laptop hard disk, assuming there was nothing else on it? What do PowerBooks have these days? 80 GB? So you can fit 1-2 movies. Great...

ghporter · Oct 6, 2005, 08:17 PM

Funny thing: for a winner, Sony isn't getting ready to ship a lot of products-they may not even ship the PS3 any time near when they've projected...

On the other hand, HD-DVD hardware is out and available in the US and Europe, while the only Blu-Ray hardware I've heard of is in Japan.

I'm not posting this just for stirring things up-I want to know how the leader in this competition is going to capitalize on winning if they aren't ready to ship a product.

wataru · Oct 6, 2005, 08:34 PM

DVD filled a big gap in recording media: Digital video on a disc, replacing video on VHS cassettes like CDs replaced audio cassettes. DVD is a big improvement in quality, and an even bigger improvement in convenience over VHS, also like CD vs. audio cassette. What big gap will HD-DVD or Blu-Ray fill? The only thing I don't like about DVDs are the restrictions put on them (not legally copyable, ridiculous region locks, etc.) and it sounds like Blu-Ray is going to be worse and HD-DVD only marginally better. We all know how well next-generation audio CDs have been received...

So next-gen DVDs will have more storage. Great. That means I can enjoy not seeing a difference in image quality on my cheap TV, or they can pack even more director's commentary and other worthless extra content in with Hollywood films. And while they're at it, we'll lose a bit more of our fair use rights and whatnot. Whoopee.

So I guess my point is, who freakin' cares? I don't want to buy a new player or new copies of my current DVD movies. I don't have an HD TV now, and I probably won't for many years. I don't need anything better than DVD, especially when they're going to be locking these things down even worse than they did for DVDs. So where is the demand for these things? This is a serious question. I'd like to hear why people are so excited.

goMac · Oct 6, 2005, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Thing is, we're talking 30-50 GB here. How many of those could you even fit on your laptop hard disk, assuming there was nothing else on it? What do PowerBooks have these days? 80 GB? So you can fit 1-2 movies. Great...

You can rip a CD to a different bitrate and a different quality. Why should an HDDVD be any different?

Agasthya · Oct 6, 2005, 11:54 PM

Wasn't HD-DVD going to be a DRM loaded Windows Media Player codec or something?

goMac · Oct 7, 2005, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Agasthya

Wasn't HD-DVD going to be a DRM loaded Windows Media Player codec or something?

Intel and Microsoft both announced they are adding to the spec ways to put your movies other places.

demograph68 · Oct 7, 2005, 12:18 AM

I wonder what McLuhan would think about it if he were still around.

moonmonkey · Oct 7, 2005, 01:37 AM

It looks like Microsoft and Intel have a lot of consumer projects planned that will be screwed if Blue Ray is accepted.

oops.

goMac · Oct 7, 2005, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

It looks like Microsoft and Intel have a lot of consumer projects planned that will be screwed if Blue Ray is accepted.

oops.

Everyone has a lot to lose if Bluray is adopted. HD-DVD offers a legal supported way to rip DVD's. I'm sure that's something Apple would be very interested in.

Hawkeye_a · Oct 7, 2005, 02:32 AM

Im still a bit hazy on the whole DVD-RAM, DVD-R, DVD+R, etc,etc....crap. when my goal is to have 4.7GB of storage i dont want to have to decipher all the technical BS behind the formats. And to be honest, im not biting either BR or HDDVD until an elegant solution(drives and media) become available.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 7, 2005, 03:30 AM

5 reasons Blu-Ray will win.

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000423062209/

Oct 7, 2005, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

DVD filled a big gap in recording media: Digital video on a disc, replacing video on VHS cassettes like CDs replaced audio cassettes. DVD is a big improvement in quality, and an even bigger improvement in convenience over VHS, also like CD vs. audio cassette. What big gap will HD-DVD or Blu-Ray fill? The only thing I don't like about DVDs are the restrictions put on them (not legally copyable, ridiculous region locks, etc.) and it sounds like Blu-Ray is going to be worse and HD-DVD only marginally better. We all know how well next-generation audio CDs have been received...

So next-gen DVDs will have more storage. Great. That means I can enjoy not seeing a difference in image quality on my cheap TV, or they can pack even more director's commentary and other worthless extra content in with Hollywood films. And while they're at it, we'll lose a bit more of our fair use rights and whatnot. Whoopee.

So I guess my point is, who freakin' cares? I don't want to buy a new player or new copies of my current DVD movies. I don't have an HD TV now, and I probably won't for many years. I don't need anything better than DVD, especially when they're going to be locking these things down even worse than they did for DVDs. So where is the demand for these things? This is a serious question. I'd like to hear why people are so excited.

A big

. And won't the only visual difference actually only be with films that were shot in HD? Meaning, the HD version of The Godfather will look the same as the DVD version on an HD screen, right? If so, that's only a handful of films and really nothing I would want to own.

I think this whole HD video thing is boring - they should of worked on "Smell-o-Vision" and "Feel-o-Rama" technologies!

I'm looking more forward to data storage on these things. But realistically, it took a long time for CD-R and DVD-R/+R to actually be somewhat reliable. Each time these technologies were introduced it was quite a while before the media and the drives were up to snuff.

wulf · Oct 7, 2005, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by screamingFit

And won't the only visual difference actually only be with films that were shot in HD? Meaning, the HD version of The Godfather will look the same as the DVD version on an HD screen, right?

No, the difference will be noticeable with practically everything except material originated in SD video, assuming the transfers are done right from a good source. 35mm film is used to shoot most feature-films and can, for our purposes, be considered an 'HD' source (although it's analogue-film HD rather than digital-video HD).

So the HD version of The Godfather would look much better than the SD version (ie., regular DVD) on an HD display.

moonmonkey · Oct 7, 2005, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Everyone has a lot to lose if Bluray is adopted. HD-DVD offers a legal supported way to rip DVD's. I'm sure that's something Apple would be very interested in.

my point is, it seems like they are not.

Athens · Oct 7, 2005, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

If Bluray won't let me copy my movies to my hard drive and portable devices like HDDVD does I won't buy it. Plain and simple.

Give it a month until its possible with some sort of hack, assuming we can get players for the computer.

Athens · Oct 7, 2005, 09:06 AM

I can see them putting the main movie on the Disc, a Mini movie on the disc for ipod video (if it ever comes out) for PSP, cell phones etc, and a Divx version for computers. The Discs are massive so they could do that with out effort. Then there is no ripping, converting needed, a less quality version to play on computers, a mini high compressed version for portable devices, all legal.

starman · Oct 7, 2005, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Athens

Give it a month until its possible with some sort of hack, assuming we can get players for the computer.

Exactly. That's why I'm not worried about it.

Montezuma58 · Oct 7, 2005, 05:21 PM

Which format is the porn industry going to choose? That one will win the war.

goMac · Oct 7, 2005, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

Give it a month until its possible with some sort of hack, assuming we can get players for the computer.

You're missing my point. It's built in functionality to HDDVD, meaning vendors like Apple and Microsoft can supply software to do it.

It is not built into Bluray, which means you get underground rippers without the sort of integration Apple and Microsoft can provide.

ghporter · Oct 7, 2005, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by wulf

No, the difference will be noticeable with practically everything except material originated in SD video, assuming the transfers are done right from a good source. 35mm film is used to shoot most feature-films and can, for our purposes, be considered an 'HD' source (although it's analogue-film HD rather than digital-video HD).

So the HD version of The Godfather would look much better than the SD version (ie., regular DVD) on an HD display.

Actually it won't make any difference if your TV/monitor isn't up to the resolution of the medium. A high quality analog/CRT TV monitor can do wonderful things with even mediocre data or poor media, while poor media or data can't be helped and are even worsened by a poor display.

Until such time as I have a compelling reason to drop somewhere around $4000 for HD equipment (monitor, receiver and some sort of media player/recorder), I'm sticking with my very reliable CRT TV monitor, satellite TV system and standard DVD player (along with the VCR for those few things I haven't been able to find on DVD yet).

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 7, 2005, 07:05 PM

Why Bill gates hates blu_ray. It is obvious that it is just because of Xbox vs PS3.

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl...16247&from=rss

Oct 7, 2005, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

snip

Until such time as I have a compelling reason to drop somewhere around $4000 for HD equipment (monitor, receiver and some sort of media player/recorder), I'm sticking with my very reliable CRT TV monitor, satellite TV system and standard DVD player (along with the VCR for those few things I haven't been able to find on DVD yet).

My compelling reason? When the HD displays and players reach a market saturation price point as CRT/DVD is now.

Once my good 'ol thrift store TV bites the dust, I'll probably just move over to my 20" iMac (which DVDPlayer.app is actually a much better player than my set top DVD player) and watch with that. Granted, my living space is very small so it'll be fine. Would have to buy another second-hand TV, though, for games. Perhaps when that point comes, I'll be able to pick up second-hand HD monitors for $100.

This coming from a hard-core cinema geek.

goMac · Oct 7, 2005, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

Why Bill gates hates blu_ray. It is obvious that it is just because of Xbox vs PS3.

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl...16247&from=rss

Bill Gates has a point. Bluray is locking down the media so it's harder to rip and copy. This is just big media companies (hmmm... thats funny... doesn't Sony make movies?) locking down consumer rights. HD-DVD on the other is more open.

Want to see an Airport Express that streams to your tv? The message is you won't see it with Bluray. They're locking down Bluray video so it can't leave the disc. HDTV meantime supports these things as part of the official spec. Want to move your movies to your computer, back them up to another disc, or pipe the video output somewhere else? Bluray won't do it. Sony is crippling Bluray to appease the media companies who want to lock down digital media more, while Microsoft is making a stand against more DRM.

wulf · Oct 8, 2005, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Actually it won't make any difference if your TV/monitor isn't up to the resolution of the medium. A high quality analog/CRT TV monitor can do wonderful things with even mediocre data or poor media, while poor media or data can't be helped and are even worsened by a poor display.

Sure. To be fair we were both talking about viewing on an HD display where the difference should be quite noticeable. The video work I've seen on HDV and (especially) HDCAM does look impressive on HD monitors. Admittedly these are the high-end pro Sony screens and so not quite the same as a consumer HD TV.

Originally Posted by ghporter

Until such time as I have a compelling reason to drop somewhere around $4000 for HD equipment (monitor, receiver and some sort of media player/recorder), I'm sticking with my very reliable CRT TV monitor, satellite TV system and standard DVD player (along with the VCR for those few things I haven't been able to find on DVD yet).

That's a big

.

For production work we are moving to HD pretty quickly. Even so, that's really for acquisition, we're still finishing most stuff in SD. At home we'll be sticking with the widescreen CRT, cable and DVD player. In the UK people are still being persuaded to upgrade to digital TV and widescreen displays so I don't see HD becoming prevalent for quite some time to come.

goMac · Oct 8, 2005, 03:00 PM

HD-DVD group has announced HD-DVD will not be using region codes.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 8, 2005, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

HD-DVD group has announced HD-DVD will not be using region codes.

All 5 people who care about that must be jumping for joy.

Walk into a best buy and ask the staff how many sales are lost because people don't want region coding?

This is a last ditch effort for HD DVD to look appealing.

goMac · Oct 8, 2005, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

All 5 people who care about that must be jumping for joy.

Walk into a best buy and ask the staff how many sales are lost because people don't want region coding?

This is a last ditch effort for HD DVD to look appealing.

It looks like HD-DVD is a wide open versatile format while Bluray is locked down, crippled, and DRM ridden.

But it's your choice.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 8, 2005, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

It looks like HD-DVD is a wide open versatile format while Bluray is locked down, crippled, and DRM ridden.

But it's your choice.

It is? Gee thanks.

DVD's have all those dramatic things as well and they sold like hotcakes.

Lets check back in a year when HD DVD is canned and we can talk.

goMac · Oct 8, 2005, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

It is? Gee thanks.

DVD's have all those dramatic things as well and they sold like hotcakes.

Lets check back in a year when HD DVD is canned and we can talk.

DVD has these things because there are no alternatives.

HD-DVD does not have these things in response to feedback for the DVD format.

demograph68 · Oct 9, 2005, 02:22 AM

http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl...16247&from=rss

After reading that and all the comments, I hope Blu-Ray fails. The DRM is very worrisome to me.
This could also be good news: http://rss.slashdot.org/Slashdot/slashdot?m=1061

I thought this comment was funny: "Of course, for Bill Gates to get all righteous about interoperability is just a little ironic!"

Eug Wanker · Oct 9, 2005, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

All 5 people who care about that must be jumping for joy.

Walk into a best buy and ask the staff how many sales are lost because people don't want region coding?

This is a last ditch effort for HD DVD to look appealing.

Actually it's a pretty significant issue for many users, and not just geeks. For instance, in Chinatown you can buy true non-bootlegged Chinese movies. But people don't buy them, because they can't be played in North America without hacked players. I feel sorry for the guys who try to be honest and sell non-bootlegged stuff, because region coding truly screws them over. Of course, bootlegged ones are cheaper, but most of them are such crap that some wouldn't rather not buy them.

It used to piss my non-techie mom off to no end that she can't watch anything purchased in Asia. So finally, we got her a hacked player.

While it might be not be so much of an issue in Hicksville, Northern Ontario, it is a common complaint in Toronto.

I'm not sure why you're such a fan of Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray is cool technology and all, but HD-DVD definitely has some DRM advantages for the consumer.

While I personally would be happy if EITHER Blu-Ray OR HD-DVD one out, I definitely am leaning towards HD-DVD for those reasons.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Oct 9, 2005, 01:51 PM

I like Blu-ray because HD is already dated. At best it will get 60 gigs when Blu-ray is 200 Gigs.

Eug Wanker · 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO

I like Blu-ray because HD is already dated. At best it will get 60 gigs when Blu-ray is 200 Gigs.

At launch HD-DVD is 30 GB. At launch Blu-Ray is 25 GB.
In the future, HD-DVD is up to 45 GB. In the future, Blu-Ray is 50 GB.

HD-DVD has claims of up to 100 GB, and Blu-Ray IIRC has claims of up to 200 GB. However, those claims from both sides will be completely irrelevant, since it would require new hardware.